Guild Wars 2

Fraelin.7409:

Though I completely agree that Sizer’s S/D thief build is a cancer to PvP, I don’t believe the weapon set is the problem.

The problems with Sizer’s 20066 S/D thief build:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes. This is ALL due to “Sigil of Air” and “Sigil of Fire” as well as a 20s cooldown on “Steal” allowing the thief to never run out of initiative (Stealing Grants 2 initiative). The build is obviously meant to be a bunker thief so i have no problem with its sustain.

My ideal fix for the situation:
1) Don’t let “Sigil of Air” and “Sigil of Fire” stack or increase the proc cooldown to 8 seconds for both Sigils. Currently these two Sigils ruin nearly every Zerker vs Zerker fight with RNG and carry builds with little damage and high sustain, to suddenly have high damage and high sustain.
2) Increase the cooldown of “Steal” from 20s to 30s ATLEAST. There will be problems with this, I will address them below. or add some counter play so “Steal” can be dodged.
3) Huge damage reduction in “Flanking strike”, as this is an evade not a offensive skill. I suggest a base damage of around 200 rather than the 500 as it is currently. “Larcenous strike” already deals enough damage, it doesn’t need the extra damage of “Flanking strike”. “Larcenous strike” also has telegraphed animations so can be dodged.

Problems with increasing “Steal” cooldown:
This will hurt every thief build a lot more than S/D so the other thief builds must be given some sustain changes in order to keep them viable as D/P and S/P thieves need the steal to help with sustaining themselves, however these sustain changes must not be able to be used by S/D thieves as they already have enough sustain.

FYI: Any S/D thief that considers these changes to be too harsh, Sizer actually gave me most of the input on them. The main one being the Steal cooldown increase.

Gl with you post Misha, I hope the developers will take it seriously.

Frae

You know what, just reroll thief and play it like you proposed up there, dont take Slight on hand, don’t use fire + air and perhaps don’t use S+d .-

Then come back and report to use how much FUN this is, and how your chances agains any other current meta build were….

Ppl just need to learn that 2/0/0/6/6 isn’t autowin, and thief has ALOT skill ceiling !
Sizer is a TOP player, but put him up against other Top players in a “fair” match and you will soon realize that its not an OP specc.

The main problem, and this was already posted many many times, is not the thief or the specc, its the Runes and Sigils.
But this is true for many other builds / professions too !
This is were they should change something, but not too much.

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

thats called bad design. nothing more.

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

Because you spec for actual trait effects, and not for the +100-300 stats u get from investing into certain trait lines… Feline Grace, Sleight of Hand, those are kittened and need toning down, as well as air-fire combo, as pointed above.
Also, s/d thief DOES live through tons of damage, despite its role…

KarsaiB.9475:

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

Also, s/d thief DOES live through tons of damage, despite its role…

With 15k HP and low armor ? Really ?

S/D is not the most skilled spec, but an experienced enemy will know every move that you will make, which is why you actually need to be somewhat creative if you want to land the attacks and not get owned by a well-placed stun.

For example a warrior will wait for the thief to use his larcenous strike, absorb the attack while using eviscerate/shield bash/longbow immob. There is not much that the thief can do to avoid this, because he won’t be able to kill the tanky warrior without committing to his attacks. And when he commits, he risks getting caught and being nearly 1 shotted due to how glassy the spec is.

Soldier warrior should be able to beat the thief atleast 70-80% of the time if their skills are equal. A berserker warrior is atleast killable for a thief who is using pincing attacks instead of the pro-longed combinations of moves that you have to do in order to kill a soldier warrior.

KarsaiB.9475:

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

Because you spec for actual trait effects, and not for the +100-300 stats u get from investing into certain trait lines… Feline Grace, Sleight of Hand, those are kittened and need toning down, as well as air-fire combo, as pointed above.
Also, s/d thief DOES live through tons of damage, despite its role…

um… what? SO, are you telling me that warriors don’t specifically trait things like cleansing ire for the effects?

Slight of Hand is ‘kittened’ how exactly? You can’t handle a daze on a steal when a warrior can stun lock some classes to death? Hell a warrior can stun/daze longer than the venom elite!

S/D does not “live through tons of damage” it doesn’t live through damage at all, it lives by avoiding it. It’s well known meta S/D is a dodge tank, this alone seems to make people think it’s a win button or takes no skill. As was pointed out, the fire and air combo are not a thief-based problem.

Dem casuals tho.

-Snowball-

Static.9841:

KarsaiB.9475:

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

Because you spec for actual trait effects, and not for the +100-300 stats u get from investing into certain trait lines… Feline Grace, Sleight of Hand, those are kittened and need toning down, as well as air-fire combo, as pointed above.
Also, s/d thief DOES live through tons of damage, despite its role…

um… what? SO, are you telling me that warriors don’t specifically trait things like cleansing ire for the effects?

Slight of Hand is ‘kittened’ how exactly? You can’t handle a daze on a steal when a warrior can stun lock some classes to death? Hell a warrior can stun/daze longer than the venom elite!

S/D does not “live through tons of damage” it doesn’t live through damage at all, it lives by avoiding it. It’s well known meta S/D is a dodge tank, this alone seems to make people think it’s a win button or takes no skill. As was pointed out, the fire and air combo are not a thief-based problem.

An interesting question would be if the devs listen to these players when balancing. It doesn’t even need to be said that he’s wrong in terms of tpvp, but is Anets approach to cater to them by taking advice on balancing, or just to balance easy builds for high level play; narrowing the skill gap between these players and the hardcore…

BlackBeard.2873:

Change mechanics: Require ports to have LOS to be successful (although Grouch has said they don’t want to add counterplay in this way to me before).

I’m sure whatever Grouch has said is terribly insightful but I would love to hear other developers justify their reasoning for porting in and out of Clocktower, etc.

thechamp.3092:

Btw, interesting fact: Flanking strike is based off of underwater combat and since underwater combat isn’t balanced then how is s/d?? :<

you never fought a ranger underwater, did you? i will give you a clue: you can’t stomp underwater

i am pretty sure rangers and engis are main reason why underwater combat was removed from pvp

thieves are in fact pretty bad underwater, it is common knowledge that if you wanna kill thief in WvW and got water nearbly, try to lure them there and collect bags; their spear evade not gonna do much there lol

Evilek.5690:

KarsaiB.9475:

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

Also, s/d thief DOES live through tons of damage, despite its role…

With 15k HP and low armor ? Really ?

Yes really…
When played well s/d thieves are unkillable jungernaught
Spammy dodge tp everywhere everytime.

Look at this guy and tell me it is balanced
http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654

Kicast.1459:

Evilek.5690:

KarsaiB.9475:

Static.9841:

Fraelin.7409:

My main problem with this S/D build is the damage it can put out when it has 0 points in critical strikes.

OK, I’m going to stop you right there.

How about how warriors and guardians can both set up a tank spec in traits, then use fire + air/intelligence sigils, strength runes and zerker ammy and still live through tons of damage (unlike the thief) and still put out good damage?

Also, s/d thief DOES live through tons of damage, despite its role…

With 15k HP and low armor ? Really ?

Yes really…
When played well s/d thieves are unkillable jungernaught
Spammy dodge tp everywhere everytime.

Look at this guy and tell me it is balanced
http://www.twitch.tv/sizer2654

Spamming dodge ??

here is many fight vs your UNKkILABLE OP THIEF CLASS

meh its about 1 skill .. steal .. if u dont know whats is it let me tell you :-
1. 2k heal
2. steal 2 boons and steals the stability so it makes daze
3. give you fury + speed + might
4. interrupt skills
5. deals damage

Fisalq.2087:

meh its about 1 skill .. steal .. if u dont know whats is it let me tell you :-
1. 2k heal
2. steal 2 boons and steals the stability so it makes daze
3. give you fury + speed + might
4. interrupt skills
5. deals damage

And only waste 4 Major traits (3 in condition dmg trait line)

i’ve taken it upon myself to answer the call to this…

L2P

thank you and good night.

everyone wanted lyssa rune BS thieves nerfed and anet answered your call. Yet we still get QQ posts that have x-amount of comments…

A nerf to sigils would maybe force thieves into executioner so they must drop surviveability.

Thieves are the reason we don´t see any other zerker builds and they shut down diversity pretty hard. Other zerker classes are just less mobile, do less damage and got less surviveability (not tankability)

Don’t worry guys anet will fix it next year. #8MonthBalanceChange

s/d Thieves were already a problem for other zerkers viability before Sigil change

Right now there is only one decent build for soloq thieves… assuming anet will (as always) listen to complains and nerf s/d, what should thieves play in your opnion lol?

Cmon, people who complain about thieves, we actually finally reached the point where Anet slowly runs out of things they can nerf on this class. What would you nerf and give thieves so they are actually viable? Amuse me please.

I personally hate and refuse to play s/d but as things stand atm, any other build is hardly viable in yoloq. I really miss BS builds and they can be somehow viable but only with some teamwork which obviosly not gonna happen if you queue alone.

Asking for thief nerfs atm is like beating dead horse.

Moobs.8231:

dd ele stronker

If only, but even this gets screwed over by say a SoH d/p dps thief or s/d SoH evade thief.

The Fire/Air disease is spreading, we need to cut it out before it consumes everything. This is going beyond just a horrible thief build, something must be done.

s/d is given wayyy to much survivability for the amount of damage you do with such little set up. I feel the same way about certain engie builds as well.

There needs to be a proper balance of risk vs reward.

Also virtually uninterrupted heals should not exist unless they have a decently long c/d like guardians shelter.

Fire/air is whats making other specs viable at the moment. Removing them doesn’t fix the core problems of s/d and will likely make bunkers too bunkery again. No one wants that.

Zaix.2480:

Fire/air is whats making other specs viable at the moment. Removing them doesn’t fix the core problems of s/d and will likely make bunkers too bunkery again. No one wants that.

People are taking bunker teams BECAUSE Fire/Air can procshot anything squishy, they are part of the bunker problem. They are the worst sort of damage, they fall into the category of Dhuumfire – there is a mountain of reason on these forums alone expressing why this sort of damage shouldn’t exist.

Something must be done.

No… People have been taking bunker teams since launch, long before the sigil changes.

S/d damage isn’t too high compared to other zerk specs. It’s their damage:defense ratio that’s off. Their extreme mobility and high evade time is too much. Removing air/fire to nerf sd is silly because it effects every class.

Zaix.2480:

No… People have been taking bunker teams since launch, long before the sigil changes.

S/d damage isn’t too high compared to other zerk specs. It’s their damage:defense ratio that’s off. Their extreme mobility and high evade time is too much. Removing air/fire to nerf sd is silly because it effects every class.

And it should affect every class, so we can finally have builds working on their own without relying on sigils.

A power meta shouldn’t rely on an OP sigil to bring classes into line 1v1. Balance the game around castable skills, because air sigils, and to a lesser extend fire, just flatten the combat experience. It’s just so subtle visibly that only a build which can actively abuse the IC mechanic so heavily (s/d) gets put into the spotlight.

Cynz.9437:

Right now there is only one decent build for soloq thieves… assuming anet will (as always) listen to complains and nerf s/d, what should thieves play in your opnion lol?

Cmon, people who complain about thieves, we actually finally reached the point where Anet slowly runs out of things they can nerf on this class. What would you nerf and give thieves so they are actually viable? Amuse me please.

I personally hate and refuse to play s/d but as things stand atm, any other build is hardly viable in yoloq. I really miss BS builds and they can be somehow viable but only with some teamwork which obviosly not gonna happen if you queue alone.

Asking for thief nerfs atm is like beating dead horse.

They are a scout medium armor profession. Their scaling in toughness should provide them more toughness than alight armor. They are also low ball hitters in terms of HP. They only have one steal, and what it does is dependent upon the target.

Increase health.
Increase toughness scaling.
Add additional options to steal. Similar to mesmer shatters.
Reduce stealthing.
Make back stabbing deliver reliable damage.

Currently thief only has one mantra..kill quick or be killed quick. There is alot of talk about sustain, but one warrior evis from behind shows they have no sustain, only heaps-o-evade and stealth is not tactical, it is more a way of life and a family motto.

They need additional resources to condition cleanse and regen options. They need more conventional fighting techniques. They need solid tactics on being able to control the pace of the encounter.

Currently they have not much of this and are entirely one trick ponies. They either evade through careful and practiced hotkeys. They stealth frequently. They blind consistently. All thief builds currently rely on one of these 3 meta’s. They have to, they don’t have the toughness or Hp do anything else.

That is the alternate option. To simply say “what else can do?..we just have to stick with rinse repeating the same trick over and over.” Is not a viable response. Actually building a thief profession is a good course. To only be able to steal, and even then it is your target that determines how it pans out is a little sad for them. They should just call them pickpockets currently. Thief needs a strong think tank to review where it goes from here. The original thief has received nothing but nerfs, a few psuedo buffs, constant tampering with initiative which all kinda shows the idea looked cool, but didn’t have a lot of long term thought put into and became a constant thorn in the side to balance every patch.

Thief pvp population: S/D 80% (stable) ,P/D 10%(growing) ,D/P 5%(decreasing)……..

I stop seeing D/D a while ago and most D/P are not good. People play what works not what works against their counters and that shows the diversity in thief so I’m surprised seeing other P/D thieves other than me recently in pvp the other zerker are disappearing. Does that mean S/D is too good nope just means the others specs have been proving not satisfying.

Some call me bad thief for P/D usage but then I said I’m not the average thief going S/D and when was the last time they fought an other good spec…….silence… They think P/D is cheese and S/D OP and I’m like what about the other sets?? Do you recognize them?

Thief is UP right now for being locked down to certain build. I see all kinds of war,guard,ele…(too much pew pew ranger but meh). People are looking at this the wrong way the thief is the victim not you for complaining about someone making a good combo of build,trait,set and sigil isn’t that what you are supposed to do in the first place??

I really dont think thief is that OP currently :/

Rather they nerfed ele or warr

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

Sizer.2654:

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

It may or may not. Would you still be willing to take trickery without fire/air procs? I’m not sure I would personally.

I think the answer to this dilemma is the same as for every other spvp realted issues: money. ANET’s money comes from the PvE community mostly. Moreover half (if not more) of the pvp community is below and will never go above the minimal level of understanding the game mechanics, so their perception of the pvp experience is heavily biased. And maybe 5% of the gw2 community has a properly established insight on pvp. Well… Anet does not give a kitty about that 5%. And they should not. As for all other business, profit is the most important thing. So they will only spend money and effort on things that the majority cares about. And they dont care about reality. They care about how players percieve the game experience. And if that does not match reality… they couldnt care less. Their job is to make ppl pay at the gemstore. Not to serve the needs of a tiny fraction of the gw2 community.

Thats why certain things wont ever be fixed. Dont be a wishful thinker.

Sizer.2654:

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

It’d take you (I mean the general ‘you’ – obviously YOU specifically can kill us easily as we’ve seen in Angz for quite some time :P) too long to kill us without the sigils and we know that version of S/D was dropped some time ago because it was too slow at killing. This was the reason PW became popular. This isn’t a Thief specific issue Sizer, its a proc issue – that sort of damage shouldn’t exist.

Sizer.2654:

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

Sizer knows for a fact that if Sigils were nerfed the sustain/burst damage on Thief would take a big hit.
Don’t let his cool demeanor fool you.

Do Sigils effect both parties? Yes, does it effect the Thief who is evading most of the damage in between his own proc CD’s more so ? Yes it does.

Do The 7k Larcenous strikes hurt? Yes they do, Do they hurt more with a 4k(double) proc and 3k steal? Yes.

Darnis.4056:

Sizer.2654:

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

Sizer knows for a fact that if Sigils were nerfed the sustain/burst damage on Thief would take a big hit.
Don’t let his cool demeanor fool you.

Do Sigils effect both parties? Yes, does it effect the Thief who is evading most of the damage in between his own proc CD’s more so ? Yes it does.

Do The 7k Larcenous strikes hurt? Yes they do, Do they hurt more with a 4k(double) proc and 3k steal? Yes.

Ls can only hit for 7k with 25 might + executioner + 15% signet on a zerker. Most of the time it’s 2500-3500 in a 2/0/0/6/6 build.

FeelsAlright.5860:

Darnis.4056:

Sizer.2654:

Nerfing air/fire sigils would actually buff sd thiefs lol atm these sigils give u guys extra burst to pressure us , hf trying to kill us without them

Sizer knows for a fact that if Sigils were nerfed the sustain/burst damage on Thief would take a big hit.
Don’t let his cool demeanor fool you.

Do Sigils effect both parties? Yes, does it effect the Thief who is evading most of the damage in between his own proc CD’s more so ? Yes it does.

Do The 7k Larcenous strikes hurt? Yes they do, Do they hurt more with a 4k(double) proc and 3k steal? Yes.

Ls can only hit for 7k with 25 might + executioner + 15% signet on a zerker. Most of the time it’s 2500-3500 in a 2/0/0/6/6 build.

There’s no build in the game that requires less skill than a condi mesmer build or a d/p thief build. We can leave everything else alone until those are fixed.

(no worries, condi warriors are high on the list too)

Mbelch.9028:

There’s no build in the game that requires less skill than a condi mesmer build or a d/p thief build. We can leave everything else alone until those are fixed.

(no worries, condi warriors are high on the list too)

Or we could work on fixing multiple things at once, also I haven’t seen a Condi Mesmer (which I agree is trash) in tpvp for … actually I can’t remember the last time I saw one. Fire/Air has infected every burst class and needs killed now.

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

S/d thief is fine, they just have few good skills.
flanking strike, feline grace, cloak and dagger, withdraw, shadow refuge, signet of agility, mug, vigorous recovery, kleptomaniac, preparedness, bountiful theft, infiltrator’s arrow…

SunnyLane.9386:

S/d thief is fine, they just have few good skills.
flanking strike, feline grace, cloak and dagger, withdraw, shadow refuge, signet of agility, mug, vigorous recovery, kleptomaniac, preparedness, bountiful theft, infiltrator’s arrow…

and they don´t need damage because of air and fire sigill

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Also, sounds like a cel war or turret engi lost to a thief…time to make a boo whoo post about why i can’t beat everything

But how can I global people as fresh air ele without air sigil :…(

Moobs.8231:

Elitist.8701:

S/D thieves aren’t OP. In teamfights they dont have that much sustain, they only have 3 evades every 5 seconds unless they use Signet, and once focused they die really fast. They cant 1v1 engis, hambows, eles, or Necros ON POINT which is the only place where 1v1s matter. They’re only slightly more mobile than D/P thieves in terms of landspeed. Speaking of D/P thieves they HARDCOUNTER S/D thieves. Black Powder destroyed any X/D thief.

That’s a funny thing to say considering our thief who runs s/d never loses to caed

Thats because that thief is outplaying caed , d/p counters most thief sets aside from P/D because the latter doesn’t require you to go in melee range thus negating the blind spam.

Thief since beta, so 2 years…
Every meta always the same problem, people start to QQ with thread “nerf S/D”,“Nerf S/P”, and this time again with “nerf S/P”.
I think thieves are in a good spot, they can contribute, if well played, to team victory, but i can assure that rarely happens.
I’m also playing a D/D ele, at beginning i was killed in 2 sec by thieves, now i can resist and also win against them in a 1v1. It’s just a problem of practice, S/D is not invincible, the are class with a better DPS (mesmer,warrior,S/P thief). The role of the thief in a game is to win 1v1 and move faster between point, if you nerf something the class will become useless. People don’t understand that mesmer and ele are not supposed to be the best 1v1 class, because they can do many thins that thief doesn’t.

maybe i’ve been playing s/d wrong but every time i give the weapon set a try i feel like i hit like a wet noodle. which often leads to them out-healing or out-dpsing me. the burst is no where near a d/p or s/p

p.s but somehow other s/d thieves can burst me down. (then again, anyone who caught a zerker thief off guard could probably do it)

OK, so Thief is OP.
Let’s just nerf thieves like Elementalist got nerfed, like Warrior got nerfed, like Rune of Strength and Pirate got nerfed, and soon Celestial Amulet.
The game will then be balanced, fun and awsome.