Guild Wars 2

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Based on these 3 things listed, I feel classes rank from strongest to weakest are in this order: based off real builds and ppl at least rank 35+ playing them in real games not hotjoin.

Elementalist: 10/10: They can get to a point before it is capped; they can keep the point neuted without worrying about dying; it takes 2 people to kill them so they can hold a point, and they can kill anyone 1v1 so they can neut points easy, as well. They have great break off ability so even if there is 2 people they still can get away. They have great aoe heals, dmg, CC and good at resing and stomping, making them fantastic in team fights.

Ranger 9/10: They are very good at making people get off point with all of there on point dmg. Their weakness is an ele coming to them but they can keep point capped for a great amount of time; at least long enough to receive back up, but anyone else running up on a trap ranger is SOL. they have great neuting potential because people fear the dmg a ranger brings; and in a team fight they bring massive dmg, fantastic rez and stomp ability, and great cc with a little bit of condi clear.

Engineer 8.5 /10: They are good at making people get off a point from knock backs and fear of dmg. Its not as intimidating as the ranger but close. An engi isnt going to go to a point with a ranger ele or guard and just neut it, that will take a bit of time; but any other class if they play to win the fight will have to get off point soon. With engi dmg, condi clears and survivability, the engi is a good point holder also. If a person sees an engi on point they know they are in for a battle without an easy neut, so puting a little doubt in ranger and ele for fear the time it takes might not be worth it but every other class shouldn’t just worry about time to neut but losing the fight. Also, an engi brings a lot to a fight with a ton of AOE dmg, condi clears and heals. They can stomp and res without getting destroyed but not super fast.

Necromancer 8/10: Necros can be better at neuting than engi and ranger if played right with fears and pure on point dmg, but with no mobility; you don’t want to send a necro to go neut unless it has to. A necro can hold a point pretty well with plague form elite, plus death shroud. With all the defenses it makes anyone consider going to try and take the point because of time cost efficiency. But with no mobility if u catch them with a high burst duo, they are easily taken down. Now in a team fight a necro brings fantastic cc, fantastic aoe dmg, and fantastic reses; they can stomp too but there down target cleave is good enough to better let another do it; but easily stomped if goes down.

Guardian 7/10: Guards are great at neuting and holding points for a long time. If your 4v4 away from them goes on forever and ur guard is left 1v1, then he may die. Guards are real dependent on team fights and that’s where they thrive; they have great cc, great reses, great stomps, great heals and condi clears, but very little dmg, unless u count the staff adding dmg then that is good also. Also, not great mobility. Relatively easy to stomp, if he goes down

Mesmer 5.5/10: If a Mesmer is running up on a thief or a warrior holding a point then they can neut it, but anything else is a time-cost efficiency problem, (just for neut) with a huge risk of dying; this is because of no mobility unless they use port to escape a failed push attempt. A Mesmer holding a point is pretty much a joke unless u have a staff and then u are like a guard except going to die way faster. A mesmer cant stay on a point unless he blows all his cd, but then the attacker comes on after that and kills the Mesmer. In team fights, a mesmer has good dmg potential, if hes full shatter; but the dmg per second doesn’t compare to to every other class, except better then guard; plus people need to be grouped up for the shatter every so often, and usually never more than 2 and very rarely all 4 clones; also the beserker misses 2 out of the 4 hits if ur lucky. Good cc, no heals, no condi clears for team, good at reses and stomps if elite is popped. Port is ok if used right for mobility, but long cd means other classes can be better especially if u just port in to die.

Thief 5/10 Great mobility and back cap potential, or a gib on a mesmer or warrior; but they cant stay on a point to keep it capped or neuted, so even if they win the fight against the other classes they will just come right back, cap it, and hold the point gaining more points per min then the thief. In a team fight a thief can potentially nuke a person down, but they cant stomp or rez, and are a high risk because of how easily they are dropped if they try and do the main dmg. If the thief is going to just stay at range then there aoe dmg is weaker.

Warrior 3/10 They can get beat by everyone in a 1v1, so them running to back cap or try and neut a point is pointless. Yes, they have mobility and can get places fast, but once they are there they are more of a liability then help. A warrior is easy to spot ,and once spotted, marked easily dropped, and easy to stomp. Yes, a warrior coming into a fight after its begun is good, as he can dish out crazy dmg, if everyone is bunched up together; but that hardly ever happens. They have no heals or condi removal for team, they can speed res and stomp but like the thief its not a good idea because they are so easy to drop and are probably the focus.

Now this was all typed in 30 min if you have questions or comments on any of the classes, I can go more in depth I just wanted something for new players to see while thinking of what class to play. Also, karl does his balancing based off the forums, well here is the truth about the balance and why.

Now, if this game was a different game type, I might rate characters different, but its not so I wont. You win games by capping nodes, you cap nodes by winning team fights. you also win by neuting and capping nodes and this is done by winning 1v1. You win also by holding nodes, which is done by winning 1v1 and surviving for a while on point.

People ask me everyday, “sat why have you been winning since the game came out if you never run multi comp or op comps plus you never exploited or played with exploiters once” and I tell them, “if you understand the game it gets way easier, wait until the game is actually balanced and its based off skill and smarts then see how great we are”

Last thing don’t tell me there is different builds people can run. I know there is, but you might as well run a different class that can suit the build your trying to make, because another class will do it better; for example a bunker warrior= lol and a condi warrior = lol they don’t compare to the other classes in those roles.

I hope u all enjoy this read I hope it opens some eyes and I hope to see ppl trying to argue facts.

In conclusion I want every class brought up to a 10/10 like the ele. I don’t like nerfs, I want correct testing with numbers so you can find out what is op; calculate dmg dealt per second to each class dmg taken per second from each class aoe dmg dealt, heals given per second, condis cleared; this will give a good idea, but then you need to factor in 2 ppl then 3 and 4 and 5. Then u get a balance. Not: “im going to read forums and see how to balance” you need to get the top 3 of each class and ask us to help you test numbers.

(this forum post was edited and punctuated by qwho)

i’m so sad you put ranger so high in the list. Karl is gonna ignore rangers again once he reads this

Why do you refer to yourself in third person?

Vyctor.7395:

Why do you refer to yourself in third person?

Because he is number 1 mesmer in NA

…I mostly agree.
Though I dunno why the hell you put mesmer as a 5.5 lol wot? Cannot be serious.
Lulz don’t you run staff + sword tho. Mesmer isn’t no 5.5.
You’re neglecting the strength of some utils, Illusion of life, null field, boon removal on shatter. Nor would I consider wars or thieves that low.
You’ve put a significant gap between those 3 and the other’s that doesn’t really portray the reality. In a team fight the necro is a relatively easy person to drop, negating most CC.

ensoriki.5789:

…I mostly agree.
Though I dunno why the hell you put mesmer as a 5.5 lol wot? Cannot be serious.

Because he is a mesmer .

Good post. Great point on framing balance around real objectives. I disagree with your mesmer and necro scores though, I think necro’s lack of mobility or capacity to disengage paired with limited stun breakers/evasion can make them a real liability sometimes, even though they certainly have good tools. I think their score is lower than 8. And I think mesmer is higher than you put in, maybe from playing it a lot u’re too aware of their weaknesses? Dunno, but while not as strong as the top 3, 5.5 doesn’t sound right. I also think guardian is an 8, the class has some issues right now, but for the simple purpose of sitting on a point and holding it… nothing else comes close and considering how important that is, that’s worth a lot. Agree with the other scores and your general points though.

waka.9826:

Vyctor.7395:

Why do you refer to yourself in third person?

Because he is number 1 mesmer in NA

Sorry but does that make him something? I guess no. His behaviour looks nothing but stupid.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

waka.9826:

Vyctor.7395:

Why do you refer to yourself in third person?

Because he is number 1 mesmer in NA

Sorry but does that make him something? I guess no. His behaviour looks nothing but stupid.

It’s a joke.

You seem to have mixed up Necro and Mesmer Sataar!!

A pretty generous score for warriors. Since they can’t 1v1 anything in this game they might as well be reworked as some other profession’s pet.

Every mention of warrior should include the phrase “Hundred Blades Bro” as well. Please edit accordingly.

Point capping is the lamest crap. This is why I left tpvp. Lots more interesting things to do in wvw.

ensoriki.5789:

…I mostly agree.
Though I dunno why the hell you put mesmer as a 5.5 lol wot? Cannot be serious.
Lulz don’t you run staff + sword tho. Mesmer isn’t no 5.5.
You’re neglecting the strength of some utils, Illusion of life, null field, boon removal on shatter. Nor would I consider wars or thieves that low.
You’ve put a significant gap between those 3 and the other’s that doesn’t really portray the reality. In a team fight the necro is a relatively easy person to drop, negating most CC.

i put mesmers so low because i base it off of thiose 3 things mainly but then i add in the team fight and 1v1 ability because they contribute to the main 3 things. now a mesmer is decent but holding a point there is 5 better classes then mesmer and nuting a point the other classes out shine it also except the warrior if you base it off of a time cost efficiency but then you have to factor in the part were even if a mesmer does run up on for example a ranger and nute the point then the mesmer is going to die so its not worth it. also the mesmer got some points because he can hold a point longer then a thief and warrior but its certain death if the other classes run up on him so he needs back up. the mesmer also got points for timewarp and illusion of life but team fight points dont add up to much on my scale and again most classes can do team fights better those 2 are not as good as for example entangle speed rez and speed stomp from a ranger.

and wars and thiefs if u do look at whats important then there score is accurate. the thief can back cap good and can do a burst in a team fight but thats it maybe some range cluster bomb but if you do damage per second other classes do it better and warrior cant do anything on his own leaving all his points from teamfight which other classes can do better plus add alot more.

yes necro can get killed in a fight if focused like i said thats why they are lower then the others but when you see good necros (or great necros) they have great posioning abbility so to get to them you have to overextend.

nice reply i hope my reasoning worked for you if i need to be more clear reply again please and ask more specific questions or give examples on what these classes can do better then others because i know alot but i dont know everything and i could always change my numbers if i get some good data collected.

dont agree with u on thief mesmer and guardian, all have a far higher score in my book. Warrior can be decent in a good team altho not as good as some others…

nerva.7940:

Point capping is the lamest crap.

Amen.

Let’s hope future PvP developers understand that.

Julius.1094:

Good post. Great point on framing balance around real objectives. I disagree with your mesmer and necro scores though, I think necro’s lack of mobility or capacity to disengage paired with limited stun breakers/evasion can make them a real liability sometimes, even though they certainly have good tools. I think their score is lower than 8. And I think mesmer is higher than you put in, maybe from playing it a lot u’re too aware of their weaknesses? Dunno, but while not as strong as the top 3, 5.5 doesn’t sound right. I also think guardian is an 8, the class has some issues right now, but for the simple purpose of sitting on a point and holding it… nothing else comes close and considering how important that is, that’s worth a lot. Agree with the other scores and your general points though.

i was going to put the necro at a 7.5 but there death shroud and fears really help them get away but i did calculate into there scores not much mobility compared to others and the liability factor that they bring to the team fight or them engaging 1v1 to nute a point.

but the guard i fell it is dead on. yes they can keep a point nute and they have great support but the lack of dmg and mobility really hinders them. basically they are a sitting duck and really rely on there teammates to come back them up eventually so there was a lot of points lost there but since they are so great at what the do do great they still got a 7 (generous 7) remember a bunker ele and ranger for example can hold out longer then a bunker guard plus kill.

great reply man keep it up.

Jax.5261:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

waka.9826:

Vyctor.7395:

Why do you refer to yourself in third person?

Because he is number 1 mesmer in NA

Sorry but does that make him something? I guess no. His behaviour looks nothing but stupid.

It’s a joke.

You seem to have mixed up Necro and Mesmer Sataar!!

im glad for your reply but can you please use some examples because i would hate to be wrong.

can you tell me the strengths of a mesmer neutralizing, capping, and holding, and winning the fight against each class and lastly team fight contribution. make sure to test amount of time it takes to neutralize how long they can keep it capped against each class and how quick they die to each class (or win) when someone comes up to there node for a 1v1.

then do the same for a necro.

after you are done im sure you will find that in fact i was right and i know this because i have already done this test also why i have made this post to show the truth about balance.

but thank you for the reply and by all means go do some testing for yourself if you want.

guza.6170:

dont agree with u on thief mesmer and guardian, all have a far higher score in my book. Warrior can be decent in a good team altho not as good as some others…

please use the 3 important parts to this game and explain why you dont agree with those 3 scores i would love to hear your reasons so i can better justify my scores i gave them to make sure we both end up on the same page. you can also add in the team fight and 1v1 capability also that adds a little to the overal score you should give them.

pretty perfect, altough i would give mesmer a 7 score and thief 6 score. ( you can’t ignore the great team utility brought by illu of life, portal and time warp)

Moreover you have to consider builds when giving such descriptions: a trap ranger is indeed on the top of the food chain, but a BM hybrid ranger can’t go upper thakittencore.

I would also say that basically every class has at least one viable build, but ele, ranger, enge, necro and guard are by far better than other classes ( especially the ele).

As soon as they fixed some ele/enge/ranger bugs, the meta has been stalling, and the only thing they really did was to add those classes to rule them all ( nothing wrong, since it was clear they were better designed for conquest) along with the guard and the necro.

Personally i wouldn’t nerf them ( maybe the ele), but i would bring other classes up to par, especially war and thief, that are a lot weaker than a mesmer.

I’m probably the only thief who shortbows as much as I do, but thieves put out the highest consistent ranged damage in the game. Poison is the most important condition for pressuring an opposing team, and cluster/trickshot hit multiple targets.

Other classes have more effective utility at range in certain team compositions, but poison + clusters + trickshot is absurd amounts of sustained damage.

Rangers are reliant on crossfire in order to deal consistent damage and are otherwise stuck using fear to setup their quickness crossfire combo, Engis taper off significantly after their first set of specialty grenades is used up, Necros are the same with wells, and you know very well how spiky, rather than consistent Mesmer damage is.

Thief doesn’t taper downwards after the first 15 seconds of a team fight. If anything, when the first person in the fight goes down, thief’s net damage output tends to increase as people cluster for stomps and resses, which makes trickshot more reliable and increases the amount of people who eat clusters.

Thief’s main weakness isn’t that their ranged pressure is low. Its that its hard to sustain while people are on you because of how vulnerable thieves are. Thieves also don’t stomp people to death; they pressure corpses with poison and clusters.

I’d put thief around a 5/10 too, but because the counterplay of sitting someone on the thief is such a solid counter. I don’t even consider a thief to be exceptional for backcapping. Eles, engineers and offensive guardians tend to do it better because they can actually hold onto the point and force multiple people to rotate to dislodge them, whereas a thief has to abandon the point. This is less valid on maps where homepoint is very far from the base, such as spirit watch or legacy of the foefire, because the investment of time that a thief takes to neut a backpoint requires a larger opportunity cost to reverse.

Anyways, that’s my 2c. The fact that they’re trying to take another chunk out of thief when there are 3-4 of us left is hilarious.

Oh, also, I think your method of determining effectiveness (looking at how classes work wrt the core mechanics of the game) is a very good way to look at things. I’d suggest, however, that you think about “pressure” rather than damage. You can force someone to take a LOT of damage by catching them in a guardian hammer 5, and you can remove a lot of pressure from your team by putting up a frozen aura, for instance.

I think part of why ele is so strong is that their individual strengths are multiplied when they begin to share auras and boons, providing good CC to set up spikes and pressure, but also providing blanket anti-pressure setups as well.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

guza.6170:

dont agree with u on thief mesmer and guardian, all have a far higher score in my book. Warrior can be decent in a good team altho not as good as some others…

please use the 3 important parts to this game and explain why you dont agree with those 3 scores i would love to hear your reasons so i can better justify my scores i gave them to make sure we both end up on the same page. you can also add in the team fight and 1v1 capability also that adds a little to the overal score you should give them.

Mesmer has the ability to portal back to point which means with a mesmer u have 5 man on middle team fight + timewarp makes him probably the best thing u can have in a teamfight, also ppl can portal back with him so the defending ability is very good. If u wana talk about 1v1 point defend i made a phantasm build that can beat everything 1v1 except maybe the minion master necro and invis condi thief (yea i know it sounds funny but its true i tested it quite alot), with it i can even kill the mighty d/d valkyre ele which is my main btw. Also shatter mesmer is very good for dissposing of bunkers because of his burst and boon removal and cc. Deserves atleast a 9.
Guardian again almost a musthave proffesion because of his range of support, unrivaled ability to hold point, stomping/rezing, cc…. all this makes him very strong in teamfight where u have to have a guy stand on point, alot of teamfights have been decided because one team had a guardian there and the other didnt from my own expirience.
Again deserves atleas a 9.
Thief is the best roamer between home and mid because of his speed and ability to 1shot ppl which also makes him strong in teamfight when he can quickly put 1 team on defensive. Incredibly strong on kyhlo because of his shortbow mobility, also on other places where he can disengage fast. Can also prevent stomp with shadow refuge and quickness stomp/rez. Would give him and 8/9 but 10 on kyhlo map.

Archer Henchman.2534:

I’m probably the only thief who shortbows as much as I do, but thieves put out the highest consistent ranged damage in the game. Poison is the most important condition for pressuring an opposing team, and cluster/trickshot hit multiple targets.

Other classes have more effective utility at range in certain team compositions, but poison + clusters + trickshot is absurd amounts of sustained damage.

Rangers are reliant on crossfire in order to deal consistent damage and are otherwise stuck using fear to setup their quickness crossfire combo, Engis taper off significantly after their first set of specialty grenades is used up, Necros are the same with wells, and you know very well how spiky, rather than consistent Mesmer damage is.

Thief doesn’t taper downwards after the first 15 seconds of a team fight. If anything, when the first person in the fight goes down, thief’s net damage output tends to increase as people cluster for stomps and resses, which makes trickshot more reliable and increases the amount of people who eat clusters.

Thief’s main weakness isn’t that their ranged pressure is low. Its that its hard to sustain while people are on you because of how vulnerable thieves are. Thieves also don’t stomp people to death; they pressure corpses with poison and clusters.

I’d put thief around a 5/10 too, but because the counterplay of sitting someone on the thief is such a solid counter. I don’t even consider a thief to be exceptional for backcapping. Eles, engineers and offensive guardians tend to do it better because they can actually hold onto the point and force multiple people to rotate to dislodge them, whereas a thief has to abandon the point. This is less valid on maps where homepoint is very far from the base, such as spirit watch or legacy of the foefire, because the investment of time that a thief takes to neut a backpoint requires a larger opportunity cost to reverse.

Anyways, that’s my 2c. The fact that they’re trying to take another chunk out of thief when there are 3-4 of us left is hilarious.

Oh, also, I think your method of determining effectiveness (looking at how classes work wrt the core mechanics of the game) is a very good way to look at things. I’d suggest, however, that you think about “pressure” rather than damage. You can force someone to take a LOT of damage by catching them in a guardian hammer 5, and you can remove a lot of pressure from your team by putting up a frozen aura, for instance.

I think part of why ele is so strong is that their individual strengths are multiplied when they begin to share auras and boons, providing good CC to set up spikes and pressure, but also providing blanket anti-pressure setups as well.

yeah this was a perfect reeply and almost are exact outlook on theif when we were doing the numbers. the cluster bomb and trickshot and poisen were very valuable in the team fight on point but then we had to take into account if a thief stays at max range it takes 3 1/2 seconds for the cluster bomb to hit bringging the dmg per second way down then we had to take in affect a thief liuke a warrior is usually targeted pretty fast making the thief blow inneciative leaveing him unable to free cast. and then not being able to get resses and stomps or be on point the number like you said is correct. glad to see u put thought into it.

great reply hope more ppl put thought and experiment with numbers before they reply. im sure once we start doing that then we will see the truth about GW2 balance and hopefully help karl get this fixed faster.

I dont know what the situation on NA was but almost all the best teams on EU had a thief in their composition and it is definitly a strong member of a team, also thiefs werent that rare on EU in general (i speak in past tense because none of those teams play anymore as the competitive scene is dead).

guza.6170:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

guza.6170:

dont agree with u on thief mesmer and guardian, all have a far higher score in my book. Warrior can be decent in a good team altho not as good as some others…

please use the 3 important parts to this game and explain why you dont agree with those 3 scores i would love to hear your reasons so i can better justify my scores i gave them to make sure we both end up on the same page. you can also add in the team fight and 1v1 capability also that adds a little to the overal score you should give them.

Mesmer has the ability to portal back to point which means with a mesmer u have 5 man on middle team fight + timewarp makes him probably the best thing u can have in a teamfight, also ppl can portal back with him so the defending ability is very good. If u wana talk about 1v1 point defend i made a phantasm build that can beat everything 1v1 except maybe the minion master necro and invis condi thief (yea i know it sounds funny but its true i tested it quite alot), with it i can even kill the mighty d/d valkyre ele which is my main btw. Also shatter mesmer is very good for dissposing of bunkers because of his burst and boon removal and cc. Deserves atleast a 9.
Guardian again almost a musthave proffesion because of his range of support, unrivaled ability to hold point, stomping/rezing, cc…. all this makes him very strong in teamfight where u have to have a guy stand on point, alot of teamfights have been decided because one team had a guardian there and the other didnt from my own expirience.
Again deserves atleas a 9.
Thief is the best roamer between home and mid because of his speed and ability to 1shot ppl which also makes him strong in teamfight when he can quickly put 1 team on defensive. Incredibly strong on kyhlo because of his shortbow mobility, also on other places where he can disengage fast. Can also prevent stomp with shadow refuge and quickness stomp/rez. Would give him and 8/9 but 10 on kyhlo map.

how long ago did you have this phantasm mesmer that can beat anyone 1v1? and do you play this against good teams? all the above classes i listed above mesmer can beat a phantasm on point mesmer even if they are subpar players. and this is due to the fact they all have aoe dmg which wreaks phantasms. im not saying ur lieing because im sure 5 months ago you might have made a phantasm mesmer and ported back to home point and won some fights but those days are long over with all the nerfs mesmers got and buffs other classes got.

and even if you dont die right away because you are super tanky (yes i have made and tested super tanky staff mesmers) then you dont bring much to the team fight and if i based my calculations off those numbers then it would be even lower score because they cant neutralize points or kill ppl in 1v1 they get neutralized on faster then the top classes would still and in team fights now all they have is illusion of life and timewarp.

also guardian is not a most have and i explained why not. other classes can do what he can maybe not to that level but then they bring so much more also. for example if you make a bunker s/d ele you can bunker the point solo vs other classes longer then a guard plus you can kill the person attacking you. you also give alot of support to teammates also. plus the no mobility thing and just being a sitting target with no dps kind of lowers the guardians score if i didnt play with davinchi we wouldnt have a guard. in fact the last week we havnt had a guard and have dominated so much harder.

now to the thief. yes they are a great roamer like i mentioned but the problem is what happens when they get to were they are going what do they bring at that point? if they back cap then that means you outnumber them in a fight somewere else ands will just go get your point back after you finish the fight. so now you get the point at the fight you outnumber them in plus will get the point they backcapped back with no resistance because the thief cant hold a point. and if we go off of the most useful thief build then they have a very hard time winning there 1v1 when they person knows they are coming up on a thief. so my score for the thief will stay the same but i agree with you they are great roamers and thats why they did get this score they did but everything else they really lack.

guza.6170:

I dont know what the situation on NA was but almost all the best teams on EU had a thief in their composition and it is definitly a strong member of a team, also thiefs werent that rare on EU in general (i speak in past tense because none of those teams play anymore as the competitive scene is dead).

i think the post got deleted but a main player from EU said he has played with and talked to all the “top” thiefs on EU and they said to be a top thief you need to macro.

now i even took that into consideration with my score and gave thiefs the benifet of the doubt but that doesnt change the fact that they cant hold points or stay on points. they can back cap but if a person knows they are there the top classes beat thiefs more then lose to them so then you have to take into account points per second ikittenround fight on the node between each class vs a thief. the other classes hold it longer and win more fights on it giving the other classes more points overall and that lowers the thiefs score.

im not saying u cant play with a thief im just saying there is way etter out there. we play with a warrior and it get so discouraging when we go against anoter great skilled team with a better comp because then it turns into they have the upper hand just because of comp.

What I can say for sure, I have 150 tournament wins with warrior and after I finished that I started my ranger and its going so much faster. In my opinion ranger is maybe 2 times more useful and easy compared to warrior. I don’t remember last time I lost on ranger, and I’m on 80 wins now. ( I mostly solo queue, or go with my friend ranger).

Now my opinion about class balance is connected to how games flow. For example how I imagine good team: Ele go to far node, Guardian go mid and Mesmer is capping close + portal defense mid. Other 2 pieces are optional. Now if your ele is at far node, enemy must react and send at least 2 burst, which means you should win middle easy. Having guardian on middle gives you flexibility of moving and having extra 30/40 seconds for reinforcements. These are reasons why I think ele, guard and mesmer are all 9+. Ranger and thief are both 8 in my opinion. Pro thieves can drop people very fast, and good aoe and escape, rangers are great for 1v1 but traps on nodes are op short cds . Engi and necro I don’t have much experience with them honestly, but as ranger I have easy time vs them most of the times. Warrior is just sad in my opinion.

Do people even still care about spvp? I mean really, its just blind hope at this point.

I’ll get clean this time, i swear.
I’ll lose the weight, i promise.
It’ll be different next time, honest.

I agree with most of this, however I think that the guardian should be an 8/10 and on par with the necromancer if not ahead of it slightly.
They have their cons, however if played right and if rotated correctly (as in always being in teamfights), they are the most vital class in teamfights (unless you are running an EU meat-tank build in which case you’re useless anyways). Build is very important, and there are really only 2/3 viable builds in which we bring the CC/utility/resing and stomping power that make us who we are.

I would bring Mesmer up to a 7 simply because of how useful they are in teamfights with the right utility skills. Timewarp, Portal and Illusion are 3 invaluable skills that can drastically change the outcome of both a small skirmish and a big teamfight. They should not be left alone for too long, though.

Thief can be brought up to a 6.5, just under the mesmer. Like Archer said, they have an insane amount of constant burst as well as timed burst, however they are a class that requires a huge amount of map awareness. The margin for failure is far too small. One slip-up, and you’re dead. Not to mention that the thief’s downed body is the squishiest and hardest to res.

Warriors in the right comp can do well, however they are stuck in the same hole as thieves. As a strong roamer with great burst and constant melee pressure, they lack the ability to pressure nodes alone and can’t stay in teamfights for very long. They are a very “niche” class atm, and that niche is, sadly, very small. There are many classes that can fill that small niche but also accomplish many other things (aka Elementalist/Mesmer/Engineer/Dps Guardian). I would give it a 5.5-6.5/10 depending on who plays it and the comp it’s played in.

My 2 cents.

Duncanmix.5238:

What I can say for sure, I have 150 tournament wins with warrior and after I finished that I started my ranger and its going so much faster. In my opinion ranger is maybe 2 times more useful and easy compared to warrior. I don’t remember last time I lost on ranger, and I’m on 80 wins now. ( I mostly solo queue, or go with my friend ranger).

Now my opinion about class balance is connected to how games flow. For example how I imagine good team: Ele go to far node, Guardian go mid and Mesmer is capping close + portal defense mid. Other 2 pieces are optional. Now if your ele is at far node, enemy must react and send at least 2 burst, which means you should win middle easy. Having guardian on middle gives you flexibility of moving and having extra 30/40 seconds for reinforcements. These are reasons why I think ele, guard and mesmer are all 9+. Ranger and thief are both 8 in my opinion. Pro thieves can drop people very fast, and good aoe and escape, rangers are great for 1v1 but traps on nodes are op short cds . Engi and necro I don’t have much experience with them honestly, but as ranger I have easy time vs them most of the times. Warrior is just sad in my opinion.

ok so lets say you have ele guard and mesmer. then you would be considered what my team would call typical meta team you would send ele to our home point we will have slowed him so our ranger can cap and set traps up. now your ele has to take into account if this fight is actually worth the time it will take to nutralize the point and then kill the ranger. even if he manages to do it was it fast enough before reinforcements came?

we sent a ele to your point also but our ele understands time cost efficiency so if you have 2 ppl on him he will stay and kite off node wasting your 2 time he wont fight on node or put himself in a position to die and if there is just your mesmer there then he will kill him and take point in 20 seconds then bunker it. now if you have 2 ppl on your point chaing our ele and 1 ele on our node that leaves you guys in a 3v2 vs us in mid fight. we have home point capped and were now capping mid so we already have a person rotating home to now kill a already weak ele because he was fighting a ranger.

if you want us to not have a ranger on point then a engi and necro can do the same against the ele but no we would not leave a mesmer because like you said the mesmer would need a second person there way to fast and thats a waste. yes the other classes would eventually need a second class to help but in the time we can kill the 2 mid we can make it back in time.

but nice reply man well thought out and i like how you told us what you guys do. i hope after hearing reasons why and seeing the truth you can see how easy it is to change up the way you run your meta.

ps i had to edit this. if you want try out each of the classes and compare them for me against the other classes you played like you did with war to ranger just to see how similar our overall score is on them. im sure they will be very similar.

I played this mesmer build less than a month ago and killed high level players 1v1 (i didnt test it in tournaments vs good teams as my team stoped playing and i only soloqued with it but im talking about 1v1 and ability to hold a point). Phantasm can crit for 5k (with soldier amulet and signet and defender they are very hard to kill) + u can have 3 of them out + constant retaliation on all phantasm against aoe + phantasmal defender to eat alot of dmg + constant regen, in teamfights its weak vs conditions (frankly its not the best for teamfights) but 1v1 i had no problems vs necros or engis. U can try it out for urself ( http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW8clwzSq3QTrGadJhJF9G5nZA9ojWApCquUBcD;TsAA1CtoQygkAJLSOkkItsYYxGCA). Also without mesmer and portal u cant leave the point because most of the time u will get decaped by an ele which means u either have 4 ppl in a teamfight vs 5 or u risk getting decaped everytime u try to leave close point.

Ele (full bunker s/d) cant bunker a point aswell as guard for the fact he gets decaped much easier , now 1v1 he is stronger but teamfights definetly not. The support of ele has very shortrange and he has no blocking abilities.
I dont think all the top thiefs use macros but cant be sure. As to your argument about point capping, thiefs arent used for that as i said they roam between close and mid and maybe occasionaly go for a quick decap on far, they arent ment to 1v1 except if they have a chance to 1shot someone and disengage if they fail. They are very strong in coming in a fight and taking out the biggest threat. U cant hold points if u dont win teamfights, sure once they become a target they cant do much but try to disengage but when they do it right it can quicly decide the outcome of a fight.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

guza.6170:

I dont know what the situation on NA was but almost all the best teams on EU had a thief in their composition and it is definitly a strong member of a team, also thiefs werent that rare on EU in general (i speak in past tense because none of those teams play anymore as the competitive scene is dead).

i think the post got deleted but a main player from EU said he has played with and talked to all the “top” thiefs on EU and they said to be a top thief you need to macro.

now i even took that into consideration with my score and gave thiefs the benifet of the doubt but that doesnt change the fact that they cant hold points or stay on points. they can back cap but if a person knows they are there the top classes beat thiefs more then lose to them so then you have to take into account points per second ikittenround fight on the node between each class vs a thief. the other classes hold it longer and win more fights on it giving the other classes more points overall and that lowers the thiefs score.

im not saying u cant play with a thief im just saying there is way etter out there. we play with a warrior and it get so discouraging when we go against anoter great skilled team with a better comp because then it turns into they have the upper hand just because of comp.

Mmm, within the thief Meta itself I’d call that pretty accurate
There is a huge difference between D/P with Haste and everything else. It’s not that other things don’t work but that’s very strong.

I don’t have team, this was just my thinking and my experience. But first yes I wanna discuss more. You said you will slow down my ele? How do you plan to do that. Lets imagine we play forest map, it is almost impossible to stop me from reaching your node on time. Unless you put people on me, which will lose you middle. Every person you place to take care of my ele is equaling to having extra less person on middle. Another thing is that you used ele on our far node, which pretty much means we agree ele is must. Now another point is, do you have guardian on middle. If you don’t have guardian on middle, its highly chance my team will take it eventually.
This leaves only discussion about is your ranger faster to deal with my ele, or my mesmer can deal faster with your ele. This is debatable, and also depend on builds + will you sent one from mid to help out etc. If you have guardian you can afford to sent one guy to deal with ele. And then I feel that my team have upper hand because mesmer ulti + for example thief, and good bye to your ele.

Davinci.8027:

I agree with most of this, however I think that the guardian should be an 8/10 and on par with the necromancer if not ahead of it slightly.
They have their cons, however if played right and if rotated correctly (as in always being in teamfights), they are the most vital class in teamfights (unless you are running an EU meat-tank build in which case you’re useless anyways). Build is very important, and there are really only 2/3 viable builds in which we bring the CC/utility/resing and stomping power that make us who we are.

I would bring Mesmer up to a 7 simply because of how useful they are in teamfights with the right utility skills. Timewarp, Portal and Illusion are 3 invaluable skills that can drastically change the outcome of both a small skirmish and a big teamfight. They should not be left alone for too long, though.

Thief can be brought up to a 6.5, just under the mesmer. Like Archer said, they have an insane amount of constant burst as well as timed burst, however they are a class that requires a huge amount of map awareness. The margin for failure is far too small. One slip-up, and you’re dead. Not to mention that the thief’s downed body is the squishiest and hardest to res.

Warriors in the right comp can do well, however they are stuck in the same hole as thieves. As a strong roamer with great burst and constant melee pressure, they lack the ability to pressure nodes alone and can’t stay in teamfights for very long. They are a very “niche” class atm, and that niche is, sadly, very small. There are many classes that can fill that small niche but also accomplish many other things (aka Elementalist/Mesmer/Engineer/Dps Guardian). I would give it a 5.5-6.5/10 depending on who plays it and the comp it’s played in.

My 2 cents.

i like that you keep saying in team fights but you have to remember the wining principle 3 things behind this game with objective play. you play the best guard i have ever seen (mostly do to the fact that you play with the greatest smartest player in the world) but fact remains if your team is in a 4v4 and you are at a point then you will lose the fight and that has nothing to do with your personal skill but has to do with the class. all the classes above the guard can beat the guard on point but they can also hold the point against the guard and they can neutralize just as fast as the guard except they will cap it faster do to the fact of them putting out more dmg. so based off those 3 things compared to the other classes they get a lower score. if there team fight ability wasnt so freaking good then they would have a lower score so belieave me i added team fight in but compared to others the guard just isnt up there yet.

now to thief and mesmer yes they have good team fight machanics but are very weak with the 3 important things. the mesmer can portal to keep a point capped but will lose the fight without help and a thief can backcap but cant hold the point so with being so weak on the 3 important things compared to the other classes there score had to be dropped accordingly.

but i did take into account timewarp and illusion of life and cluster bomb and insta gib but when you compare that to the other classes dps plus team support and stomping and resing potential plus there elites then the thief and mesmer fall short if you look at it from a numbers fact standpoint.

P.S. no this wasnt rehearsed with davinchi to have a good argument and rebutle.

I think Davinci’s probably right about the effectiveness of guardians. Empower is probably the single strongest teamfight pressure ability in the game, and binding blade is probably the best setup for any other combo in the game.

But more importantly than that, guardians put down light fields and are always sitting right next to another guardian. That means that most ranged pressure that hits onto a point will either grant a guardian retaliation, or strip conditions off him. You’ll note that condi pressure is a huge element in why most teams get pushed off points, as thief is the only class with sustained physical ranged damage (ie, most aoe point pressure that doesn’t need to fade off to the point – as with ele and warrior – is condition based). Since guardians set up a huge amount of self-removal, this makes them far more durable on-point than eles. Eles suffer drastically when they get immobilized, and their ability to heal themselves is mostly linear with time, and ele bunkers tend to be excessively selfish. Guardians provide stability for stomps, knockbacks, aoe might, area control abilities and others. Eles, by contrast, don’t. I don’t really think that the amount of time a bunker can sit on a point alone is really that useful to examine; the skill-set which eventually wins you the fight at that point is ultimately worth more points.

Also, offensive guardians are still really strong. Retreat deals with most of their mobility issues. The biggest weakness that mesmer has, in my mind, is that they will lose their homepoint consistently to an offensive guardian or trap ranger who sets up on their portal.

As for the travel time of clusters, there are a few ways of getting around that issue, but trickshot and poison gas alone are worthwhile. With 1 empower, trickshots do 5-6k per shot. 5-6k sustained dps + poison + weakness even without clusters is absurd.

That said, I think a lot of people give timewarp way too much credit. It isn’t very good for pressure because most classes just end up putting their skills on cooldown then get forced into spamming autos. Unless you’re dropping it to secure a down, you’re just giving the other team a reason to back up off point. I recall it being used against us for ressing people, which was decently effective, but ranger res ult does a better job if you’re going to use it defensively, and ranger has less kittenty 1v1 matchups. No one brings ranger ult, though, because they’re stupid. The ult pet is the single strongest anti-pressure skill in the game. I don’t see many teams dipping during timewarp, though, which I consider to be a significant mistake. Dipping on Legacy is very common, though.

Anyways, I’ve been waiting a week for people to get online. Maybe enough people will log on today for us to actually play the game.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Davinci.8027:

I agree with most of this, however I think that the guardian should be an 8/10 and on par with the necromancer if not ahead of it slightly.
They have their cons, however if played right and if rotated correctly (as in always being in teamfights), they are the most vital class in teamfights (unless you are running an EU meat-tank build in which case you’re useless anyways). Build is very important, and there are really only 2/3 viable builds in which we bring the CC/utility/resing and stomping power that make us who we are.

I would bring Mesmer up to a 7 simply because of how useful they are in teamfights with the right utility skills. Timewarp, Portal and Illusion are 3 invaluable skills that can drastically change the outcome of both a small skirmish and a big teamfight. They should not be left alone for too long, though.

Thief can be brought up to a 6.5, just under the mesmer. Like Archer said, they have an insane amount of constant burst as well as timed burst, however they are a class that requires a huge amount of map awareness. The margin for failure is far too small. One slip-up, and you’re dead. Not to mention that the thief’s downed body is the squishiest and hardest to res.

Warriors in the right comp can do well, however they are stuck in the same hole as thieves. As a strong roamer with great burst and constant melee pressure, they lack the ability to pressure nodes alone and can’t stay in teamfights for very long. They are a very “niche” class atm, and that niche is, sadly, very small. There are many classes that can fill that small niche but also accomplish many other things (aka Elementalist/Mesmer/Engineer/Dps Guardian). I would give it a 5.5-6.5/10 depending on who plays it and the comp it’s played in.

My 2 cents.

i like that you keep saying in team fights but you have to remember the wining principle 3 things behind this game with objective play. you play the best guard i have ever seen (mostly do to the fact that you play with the greatest smartest player in the world) but fact remains if your team is in a 4v4 and you are at a point then you will lose the fight and that has nothing to do with your personal skill but has to do with the class. all the classes above the guard can beat the guard on point but they can also hold the point against the guard and they can neutralize just as fast as the guard except they will cap it faster do to the fact of them putting out more dmg. so based off those 3 things compared to the other classes they get a lower score. if there team fight ability wasnt so freaking good then they would have a lower score so belieave me i added team fight in but compared to others the guard just isnt up there yet.

now to thief and mesmer yes they have good team fight machanics but are very weak with the 3 important things. the mesmer can portal to keep a point capped but will lose the fight without help and a thief can backcap but cant hold the point so with being so weak on the 3 important things compared to the other classes there score had to be dropped accordingly.

but i did take into account timewarp and illusion of life and cluster bomb and insta gib but when you compare that to the other classes dps plus team support and stomping and resing potential plus there elites then the thief and mesmer fall short if you look at it from a numbers fact standpoint.

P.S. no this wasnt rehearsed with davinchi to have a good argument and rebutle.

Sataar I have to disagree with you about guardian. Bunker is not the only thing a guard can play. Everyone always seems to forget that. There is not a class that can beat dps guard consistently 1v1 unless it’s an ele and that’s is 50/50. Your right about the bunker that leaving him may mean he dies but they bring so much in a team fight. But if you don’t want a bunker one bring a dps one. The retal alone in team fights makes such a big difference. Some classes maybe able to survive better but don’t bring nearly as much to a team fight as a guard can at times. It all depends on your comp too.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

guza.6170:

I dont know what the situation on NA was but almost all the best teams on EU had a thief in their composition and it is definitly a strong member of a team, also thiefs werent that rare on EU in general (i speak in past tense because none of those teams play anymore as the competitive scene is dead).

i think the post got deleted but a main player from EU said he has played with and talked to all the “top” thiefs on EU and they said to be a top thief you need to macro.

now i even took that into consideration with my score and gave thiefs the benifet of the doubt but that doesnt change the fact that they cant hold points or stay on points. they can back cap but if a person knows they are there the top classes beat thiefs more then lose to them so then you have to take into account points per second ikittenround fight on the node between each class vs a thief. the other classes hold it longer and win more fights on it giving the other classes more points overall and that lowers the thiefs score.

im not saying u cant play with a thief im just saying there is way etter out there. we play with a warrior and it get so discouraging when we go against anoter great skilled team with a better comp because then it turns into they have the upper hand just because of comp.

whoever said that talked to every top EU thief is obviously lying or u are lying don’t know which don’t care. I can tell u that 2/4 of the remaining thieves when i was still playing weren’t macroing.

Archer Henchman.2534:

I think Davinci’s probably right about the effectiveness of guardians. Empower is probably the single strongest teamfight pressure ability in the game, and binding blade is probably the best setup for any other combo in the game.

But more importantly than that, guardians put down light fields and are always sitting right next to another guardian. That means that most ranged pressure that hits onto a point will either grant a guardian retaliation, or strip conditions off him. You’ll note that condi pressure is a huge element in why most teams get pushed off points, as thief is the only class with sustained physical ranged damage (ie, most aoe point pressure that doesn’t need to fade off to the point – as with ele and warrior – is condition based). Since guardians set up a huge amount of self-removal, this makes them far more durable on-point than eles. Eles suffer drastically when they get immobilized, and their ability to heal themselves is mostly linear with time, and ele bunkers tend to be excessively selfish. Guardians provide stability for stomps, knockbacks, aoe might, area control abilities and others. Eles, by contrast, don’t. I don’t really think that the amount of time a bunker can sit on a point alone is really that useful to examine; the skill-set which eventually wins you the fight at that point is ultimately worth more points.

Also, offensive guardians are still really strong. Retreat deals with most of their mobility issues. The biggest weakness that mesmer has, in my mind, is that they will lose their homepoint consistently to an offensive guardian or trap ranger who sets up on their portal.

As for the travel time of clusters, there are a few ways of getting around that issue, but trickshot and poison gas alone are worthwhile. With 1 empower, trickshots do 5-6k per shot. 5-6k sustained dps + poison + weakness even without clusters is absurd.

That said, I think a lot of people give timewarp way too much credit. It isn’t very good for pressure because most classes just end up putting their skills on cooldown then get forced into spamming autos. Unless you’re dropping it to secure a down, you’re just giving the other team a reason to back up off point. I recall it being used against us for ressing people, which was decently effective, but ranger res ult does a better job if you’re going to use it defensively, and ranger has less kittenty 1v1 matchups. No one brings ranger ult, though, because they’re stupid. The ult pet is the single strongest anti-pressure skill in the game. I don’t see many teams dipping during timewarp, though, which I consider to be a significant mistake. Dipping on Legacy is very common, though.

Anyways, I’ve been waiting a week for people to get online. Maybe enough people will log on today for us to actually play the game.

Timewarp is one of the only skills in the game that can turn something completely 180 besides res signets. So yes it is a big deal. It also depends on how your mesmer uses it. Defensive timewarps can just as effective or more effective then anything.

As far as guards retreat is a bad skill and a waste of a utility. Idk why everyone runs that bad skill and needs to not think someones build is so great. Most of the time your ele or team will provide you the swiftness you need. But everything you said about the bunker guard and ele were on point.

I don’t agree with thieves not being able to stomp…I get 90% of my stomps with no interuption…even if I get targeted. Blackpowder usually does it already, and if I know I need the stomp for sure I just shadowstep stomp and get my stomp.

Getting on topic from a thief perspective -

We are strong, yes, even outside of hotjoins. But there are definitely limitations…and I feel that thieves (esp glass cannons) have the highest ceiling in terms of skill level.

It’s ironic because everyone keeps saying how OP thieves are, but there are like 4 thieves in mid to higher tier tpvp. Ask the top players what class/es would be in the perfect comp and a thief/war would come last for sure. It’s not easy to play a good thief because we are not just the class with the lowest health pool, but we are also the only class with no true invulns…every other class has a skill that gives them 3-4s of invuln. We get stealth…which is literally a gimmick because you take damage as you would unstealthed…thus if a skilled player knows where you are, then you’re going to be in a bad position.

Playing a good thief requires so much awareness, skill and reaction time that it’s crazy…especially if you know there is another good thief on the other team. You have to play in such a paranoid state because as a thief, life and death is determined within a blink of an eye. People could sneeze on you and you’d die. Every other class has a oh kitten button which invulns them for 3-4secs…necros have a whole life bar + fear. We get shadowstep…which is a 1200r teleport, not even a invuln.

You may wonder, well then why don’t you play a less squishy thief? Answer is simple…it’s NOT viable. If you want to talk about build diversity, a thief has none. Even if you use different weapon sets, your stats are most likely 25/30/0/0/15. Any other build just doesn’t work as well in a team environment. A balanced thief does no good…there are much better classes that are more viable played with balanced builds. I’m not even going to talk about caltrops thieves because are gimmicky and any good dps thief will know how to counter them easy.

Side note: the upcoming Mug nerf is ridiculous imo…so now they want to nerf our burst damage even more…which is really the only reason to have a thief in the team. Meanwhile, it’s all good that Eles would have their burst healing which could renew their HP completely after our burst.

Overall I would say a thief is a 6.5 – however this number will go up drastically should there ever be that AOE nerf.

@guza

like i said i tried the super tanky phantasm build before i actually ran it for a while during my testing period but once the players found out i was more useless in a team fight then it came down to they portal pop strat that top teams use against mesmers. for example i wasnt a real threat in a fight so they would send a person to pop my portal then i would have 2 choices go back to the team fight knowing i cant outrun the ele back to point and get nuted on or stay there for 90 seconds while they outnumber my team in the fight. so again that is why the mesmer gets a lower number it is to easily out performed by other classes. you might say well in a team fight the 5k hit the phantasm does is good but remember the cast time plus recharge time plus the delay it takes to attack really messes up its dmg per second compared to the other classes. and that even saying the phantasm hits bucause my team for example cc and kills phantasms before they heven do an attack leaving every other mesmer we go agaisnt totally useless.

dont get me wrong im not saying that build is bad but no it cant 1v1 classes and no longer does that much dmg with a soldier when i played that build it felt like i was in the guards same position basically waiting to die holding out for a while except with out all the amazing team fight features a guard brings. if i had to truthfully rate this build it would be a 4.5/10. it can hold the point longer then the regular mesmer but is to easily countered and brings a lot less to the fight then the regular mesmer and comparing just that to other classes it takes a lot of score away from the mesmer cause they can do that also except actually kill and do a lot more in team fights.

for example dont forget the best on point mesmer was nero he was amazing but after me and him had a loong talk on kylo and we tested it not only was i beating him every fight withen 30 seconds on my mesmer but when he came back to take the point i was able to hold it from him for 25 seconds before i got off point then killed hime withen anoth 10 seconds after that leaveing the points per minute way in the favor of a regular mesmer of the on point bunkery mesmer.

i understand what your saying about the thiefs roaming ability and i also agreed that it is good. so is the warrior between 2 points but that is not what determines a win, that is not a top 3 priority in a class. yes in hotjoin they are amazing but in spvp the score i gave them is correct. let me take you to a example. if there is a 3 point team playing with the top 5 classes i have and you have a team playing with a thief then you need to be a 2 point team correct? the top 5 classes will not be able to get droped by the thief leaving his burst useless and lets say that the thief does go and back cap while the other team is fighting your 4 then the 5 win and go and take the node back from the thief because he cant hold it. but lets say you have a teammate fighting the guard in mid and so the thief goes to help against the guard then that is sacraficing 2 ppl for 1 kill leaving your team outnumbered again. but lets say the thief stays in the 5v5 fight then they are such a liability because if specked right the thief is going to get destroyed in a team fight by cleave so he has to just sit back and long range cluster bomb wile getting shot himself so he has no inisiative leaving him useless.

when i made this post i anticipated people to say no. but i have done the numbers i have done the testing i have run each of the strats and seen the outcome. i wish the numbers were different. i wish the game was balanced and everyone was useful at everthing thats what i said in the post but right now its not and these are the reasons why.

ty for the reply i enjoy saying more of the examples that we tested i wish i could dsay them all to bad that would take weeks to type.

lilz,

Trap ranger beats offensive guardians 100% of the time with a comfortable amount of health remaining without using their ult.

Timewarp doesn’t really change up a fight, because players playing against a mesmer will generally dip earlier in order to prevent themselves from getting spiked and then quickness stomped. Mesmers are rather weak in team fight situations, and the longer they hold timewarp, the worse a position their team is in. Mesmers have very telegraphed spikes with shatters, and aoe on points typically clears clones and phantasms quickly, severely reducing their damage output. A backpoint trap ranger, for instance, can drop a huge amount of damage on point, bring significant cc with his pets, drop an ult which provides more anti-pressure and 180 degree capability than timewarp, and does so in a package which is harder to drop.

More importantly, trap rangers BURN GUARDIANS DOWN HARRRRRRRRRRD, which pressures teams incredibly hard, as a guardian has trouble dropping off point and guardians force a backline character up to get cleaved on his corpse. Additionally, his down 2 state is very telegraphed and blindable, and stab stompable, which means the other guardian on-point is in a very good position to drop him. Mesmers don’t apply that much pressure to guardians when their clones are being cleared and don’t have the bulk to extend to hit backline characters.

Duncanmix.5238:

I don’t have team, this was just my thinking and my experience. But first yes I wanna discuss more. You said you will slow down my ele? How do you plan to do that. Lets imagine we play forest map, it is almost impossible to stop me from reaching your node on time. Unless you put people on me, which will lose you middle. Every person you place to take care of my ele is equaling to having extra less person on middle. Another thing is that you used ele on our far node, which pretty much means we agree ele is must. Now another point is, do you have guardian on middle. If you don’t have guardian on middle, its highly chance my team will take it eventually.
This leaves only discussion about is your ranger faster to deal with my ele, or my mesmer can deal faster with your ele. This is debatable, and also depend on builds + will you sent one from mid to help out etc. If you have guardian you can afford to sent one guy to deal with ele. And then I feel that my team have upper hand because mesmer ulti + for example thief, and good bye to your ele.

so we like to send 4 ppl out the beach door. i start with magic bullet stun through ur ride the lightning then beserker to cripple u and put u in combat. that is all it takes and if we land it the rest my team is already running to mid without entering combat. if we nne dextra slow on u a second person can help. guardian for example with immobaloze. plus the ranger has traps set down so he will always get the cap. now the ele on our team ignored all that and went straight to your point and you called 4 our crossing because you seen 4 us beach door so most likely 2-3 will stay at your home point but we are going to mid. we have 3 ppl beating on your guard and can have him dead in 20 seconds reguardless of what he does. the second guy will be trickling into mid and maybe the 3rd guy if your mesmer says he can take our ele but they cant so now we have ur guard down and he didnt hurt any of us we have a engi and a guard in mid so whatever 2 you have is going to have a hard time killing us 3. at that point ranger will tell me how much time he has left either he is about to die or has to break off let it get neatralized to stay alive. i would be first rotater on my mesmer and would evaluate the time it takes me to get to him on when i have to break off. but if you left 2 ppl to stay home against our ele after we kill guard i immediatley rotate back home point scare you off our ranger and let our 2 at mid 2v1 your 1 person left. plus our ele doesnt kite your 2 close back to mid hes by you base so yes you have it capped by hes toying with 2 ppl leaving us outnumbering your team.

and this whole game came down to you leaving a mesmer and us leaving a ranger at home point. just the difference in score i give classes really does make a huge difference in a actual game.

now you can put a thief or warrior in my spot and they can be as useful as me but lets say i stop playing mesmer and pick up necro or ranger and we run a top 5 class comp then our strats are amplified just because of how much better the class is.

Archer Henchman.2534:

lilz,

Trap ranger beats offensive guardians 100% of the time with a comfortable amount of health remaining without using their ult.

Timewarp doesn’t really change up a fight, because players playing against a mesmer will generally dip earlier in order to prevent themselves from getting spiked and then quickness stomped. Mesmers are rather weak in team fight situations, and the longer they hold timewarp, the worse a position their team is in. Mesmers have very telegraphed spikes with shatters, and aoe on points typically clears clones and phantasms quickly, severely reducing their damage output. A backpoint trap ranger, for instance, can drop a huge amount of damage on point, bring significant cc with his pets, drop an ult which provides more anti-pressure and 180 degree capability than timewarp, and does so in a package which is harder to drop.

More importantly, trap rangers BURN GUARDIANS DOWN HARRRRRRRRRRD, which pressures teams incredibly hard, as a guardian has trouble dropping off point and guardians force a backline character up to get cleaved on his corpse. Additionally, his down 2 state is very telegraphed and blindable, and stab stompable, which means the other guardian on-point is in a very good position to drop him. Mesmers don’t apply that much pressure to guardians when their clones are being cleared and don’t have the bulk to extend to hit backline characters.

You my friend have it completely backwards.

First of all skill and awareness is the number one thing in this game. Counter classes dont matter. Rangers do counter guardians hard but no ranger can beat a good and well played dps guardian ever lmao. You probably wouldn’t know because all the good players cease to play anyway and there is only one guaridan who was able to beat all rangers 1v1 unless he had no cd’s.

As far as mesmers, like I said, skill is an important factor including your teammates whether or not your Mesmer uses it offensively or defensively. As a top player or team, you know ahead of time the team will back out of time warp so your team should know what to do accordingly. Same goes for when you use it defensively. Timewarp is by far the biggest skill changer in high level tournament games. BY FAR and nothing is even close when time warp is used right.

Ranger res pet, Shadow refuge, any of the res sigs, a fully buffed whirlwind, etc. will all completely change the outcome of a fight. Timewarp doesn’t ‘change things up’. It just solidifies an advantage or fixes a mistake. I’ve seen countless timewarps get completely stuffed by a sanctuary, line of warding, etc. You know what doesn’t get stuffed? Res pet bringing up 1-2 people reliably per fight, granting regen to everyone on your team and stuffing all condi damage.

There’s a reason why people ran lich form to combo with timewarp before people figured out that super glass necros were easy to demolish; without a powerful autoattack, timewarp doesn’t shine.

There’s a reason many teams dropped their mesmers for rangers on their backpoint, and it wasn’t because mesmers are kittenty at 1v1s.

Also, you’re just plain flat out wrong about guardians and rangers. I’ve seen the matchup happen extensively in 1v1s, in tournament matches, on stream and talked about it to people solidly sitting in the top 10 of their respective regions. Its always a win for the trap ranger. The guardian’s skill determines how long it takes for him to die, not whether or not he survives. 1:10 is pretty solid. 0:40 or less is pretty bad.

lilz shorty.1879:

Sataar I have to disagree with you about guardian. Bunker is not the only thing a guard can play. Everyone always seems to forget that. There is not a class that can beat dps guard consistently 1v1 unless it’s an ele and that’s is 50/50. Your right about the bunker that leaving him may mean he dies but they bring so much in a team fight. But if you don’t want a bunker one bring a dps one. The retal alone in team fights makes such a big difference. Some classes maybe able to survive better but don’t bring nearly as much to a team fight as a guard can at times. It all depends on your comp too.

i think a dps guard is good but a ele ranger and necro can destroy them the moajority of the time. yes they have mobility and can back cap and give out retaliation. so if i had to use that spec for a guard i would rate it a 7/10 any of the classes can kill it pretty fast if they know they are coming up on it. it is easily neutralized against by the classes that score better then it. as a mesmer i kill them way faster then a bunker. i let them nute because i know i can beat them 90% of the time in a 1v1 if im not on point and the classes above it can stay on point beat it. so if we use factual numbers its dmg per second is pretty good. but they are easily capped on they dont pose much threat when you know they are coming to back cap. and unless they come up to a thief warrior or mesmer they are gonna have a hard time neutralizing the point.

the reason i give that build a 7 is i compare what it can do compared to the classes above it and below it. if you want specific comparisons with that build to another class just ask. i will tell u how its better or worse and why. i wanted to give it less because retaliation in a team fight doesnt compare to the awesomeness a real guard brings to a team fight but the give and take evens it out

Lol those teams where their Timewarp is wasted because of a sanctuary or line of warding are bad. Makes sense because most teams now are average. Rangers replace most Mesmers now because most mesmers suck lmao. Idk who it what people,talk about now but everyone knows there were very few good mesmers. Im talking 3 in NA. And 2 of those 3 don’t even play anymore. As I stated before it depends on our team and Mesmer. The tournament pay now may have this happening because the matches are lol in skill level.

As far as me being completely wrong in fat out guardians. First of all im talking about dps guardians. Secondly loolooolllll about top 10 respectively in their regions. The two best dps guardians no longer play anymore. You mean top 10 of those who pay now? Good joke. The best ranger ingame lost too that dps guardian all the time in 1v1. But neither of them even play anymore. As I said most of the guards now don’t know to fight a ranger 1v1 because they don’t know how to play it. It’s not because they can’t. Rangers cannot beat a well play dps guard because rangers are so easy to figure out and have no variety in their 1v1s. That’s why this guard is able to beat rangers when supposedly rangers can’t be 1v1’d. Good joke.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

Sataar I have to disagree with you about guardian. Bunker is not the only thing a guard can play. Everyone always seems to forget that. There is not a class that can beat dps guard consistently 1v1 unless it’s an ele and that’s is 50/50. Your right about the bunker that leaving him may mean he dies but they bring so much in a team fight. But if you don’t want a bunker one bring a dps one. The retal alone in team fights makes such a big difference. Some classes maybe able to survive better but don’t bring nearly as much to a team fight as a guard can at times. It all depends on your comp too.

i think a dps guard is good but a ele ranger and necro can destroy them the moajority of the time. yes they have mobility and can back cap and give out retaliation. so if i had to use that spec for a guard i would rate it a 7/10 any of the classes can kill it pretty fast if they know they are coming up on it. it is easily neutralized against by the classes that score better then it. as a mesmer i kill them way faster then a bunker. i let them nute because i know i can beat them 90% of the time in a 1v1 if im not on point and the classes above it can stay on point beat it. so if we use factual numbers its dmg per second is pretty good. but they are easily capped on they dont pose much threat when you know they are coming to back cap. and unless they come up to a thief warrior or mesmer they are gonna have a hard time neutralizing the point.

the reason i give that build a 7 is i compare what it can do compared to the classes above it and below it. if you want specific comparisons with that build to another class just ask. i will tell u how its better or worse and why. i wanted to give it less because retaliation in a team fight doesnt compare to the awesomeness a real guard brings to a team fight but the give and take evens it out

In terms of team fight mechanics you are right. Other classes tend to bring more to a team fight but not always. As far as mobility, with my build mobility is not an issue and even faster then ride the lightning as far as reaching a point. As far as what it brings, the fact that a good dps guaridan will almost always beat the person back point whether on point or not if ur not running the typical lol build everyone runs with retreat. So this requires 2 to help their backpoint. The best part is rangers now think they can always beat a guard on their backpoint so don’t call for help which is their downfall. The ranger then dies which may end up leading to a 3 cap. A Mesmer is even easier to beat. Necreos have no chance against a good dps guard. I mean absolutely no chance. Else’s are the only problem and that’s 50/50.

Amaterasu.6280:

I don’t agree with thieves not being able to stomp…I get 90% of my stomps with no interuption…even if I get targeted. Blackpowder usually does it already, and if I know I need the stomp for sure I just shadowstep stomp and get my stomp.

Getting on topic from a thief perspective -

We are strong, yes, even outside of hotjoins. But there are definitely limitations…and I feel that thieves (esp glass cannons) have the highest ceiling in terms of skill level.

It’s ironic because everyone keeps saying how OP thieves are, but there are like 4 thieves in mid to higher tier tpvp. Ask the top players what class/es would be in the perfect comp and a thief/war would come last for sure. It’s not easy to play a good thief because we are not just the class with the lowest health pool, but we are also the only class with no true invulns…every other class has a skill that gives them 3-4s of invuln. We get stealth…which is literally a gimmick because you take damage as you would unstealthed…thus if a skilled player knows where you are, then you’re going to be in a bad position.

Playing a good thief requires so much awareness, skill and reaction time that it’s crazy…especially if you know there is another good thief on the other team. You have to play in such a paranoid state because as a thief, life and death is determined within a blink of an eye. People could sneeze on you and you’d die. Every other class has a oh kitten button which invulns them for 3-4secs…necros have a whole life bar + fear. We get shadowstep…which is a 1200r teleport, not even a invuln.

You may wonder, well then why don’t you play a less squishy thief? Answer is simple…it’s NOT viable. If you want to talk about build diversity, a thief has none. Even if you use different weapon sets, your stats are most likely 25/30/0/0/15. Any other build just doesn’t work as well in a team environment. A balanced thief does no good…there are much better classes that are more viable played with balanced builds. I’m not even going to talk about caltrops thieves because are gimmicky and any good dps thief will know how to counter them easy.

Side note: the upcoming Mug nerf is ridiculous imo…so now they want to nerf our burst damage even more…which is really the only reason to have a thief in the team. Meanwhile, it’s all good that Eles would have their burst healing which could renew their HP completely after our burst.

Overall I would say a thief is a 6.5 – however this number will go up drastically should there ever be that AOE nerf.

nice well thought out reply but you didnt say anything really positive about the thief how did you come up with a 6.5? what was that number compared to?

remember you need to take in account can it back cap can it hold nodes and can it neatralize against someone then for what time duration if any then factor in what classes can do what it does and or cant do and what score that class has. if you compare it to every class above it using my scores you will see it falls well short of the bar and IMO 6.5 is to good of a score in comparrison.

I’ve been watching and playing with and against the best teams for months.

Anyways, name some names so that we can compare notes. If you drop oppa and kaypud as names, that’ll be hilarious.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Amaterasu.6280:

I don’t agree with thieves not being able to stomp…I get 90% of my stomps with no interuption…even if I get targeted. Blackpowder usually does it already, and if I know I need the stomp for sure I just shadowstep stomp and get my stomp.

Getting on topic from a thief perspective -

We are strong, yes, even outside of hotjoins. But there are definitely limitations…and I feel that thieves (esp glass cannons) have the highest ceiling in terms of skill level.

It’s ironic because everyone keeps saying how OP thieves are, but there are like 4 thieves in mid to higher tier tpvp. Ask the top players what class/es would be in the perfect comp and a thief/war would come last for sure. It’s not easy to play a good thief because we are not just the class with the lowest health pool, but we are also the only class with no true invulns…every other class has a skill that gives them 3-4s of invuln. We get stealth…which is literally a gimmick because you take damage as you would unstealthed…thus if a skilled player knows where you are, then you’re going to be in a bad position.

Playing a good thief requires so much awareness, skill and reaction time that it’s crazy…especially if you know there is another good thief on the other team. You have to play in such a paranoid state because as a thief, life and death is determined within a blink of an eye. People could sneeze on you and you’d die. Every other class has a oh kitten button which invulns them for 3-4secs…necros have a whole life bar + fear. We get shadowstep…which is a 1200r teleport, not even a invuln.

You may wonder, well then why don’t you play a less squishy thief? Answer is simple…it’s NOT viable. If you want to talk about build diversity, a thief has none. Even if you use different weapon sets, your stats are most likely 25/30/0/0/15. Any other build just doesn’t work as well in a team environment. A balanced thief does no good…there are much better classes that are more viable played with balanced builds. I’m not even going to talk about caltrops thieves because are gimmicky and any good dps thief will know how to counter them easy.

Side note: the upcoming Mug nerf is ridiculous imo…so now they want to nerf our burst damage even more…which is really the only reason to have a thief in the team. Meanwhile, it’s all good that Eles would have their burst healing which could renew their HP completely after our burst.

Overall I would say a thief is a 6.5 – however this number will go up drastically should there ever be that AOE nerf.

nice well thought out reply but you didnt say anything really positive about the thief how did you come up with a 6.5? what was that number compared to?

remember you need to take in account can it back cap can it hold nodes and can it neatralize against someone then for what time duration if any then factor in what classes can do what it does and or cant do and what score that class has. if you compare it to every class above it using my scores you will see it falls well short of the bar and IMO 6.5 is to good of a score in comparrison.

You act like the refuge we’re all carrying has no use, when it’s straight stomp denial.
Current thief can’t afford a mug nerf.