Guild Wars 2

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

See I honestly think people in general and in this thread are thinking way to much about mechanics of the game without including other factors. The balance in this game is not as bad as people make it out to be. Classes are meant to do certain things and anet has done a good job at making that obvious with certain classes.

I keep seeing that this class and this class has shouldn’t be able to beat this comp or class based on what is written down on paper. That is the dumbest bs I ever heard or seen in my life and a typical excuse people use. I’m not calling a anyone out but so what if a class is supposed to perform better at certain aspects of the game(on paper). So what if the other teams comp (on paper) ikittenv5 or 3v3 is better. It doesn’t mean you cannot win. It comes down to the players and team play of both sides. If everyone constantly has that mentality you will never be able to compete at a top level in anything you do including sports, work, etc…..

All these posts about balance balance balance because a class cannot do this. Well classes are meant to do certain things which is why you have a team. You can play anything you want in this game if you wanted and any comp. All it takes is an adjustment to strategy. Some classes did needed to be toned down but sent he already done a good enough job with that.

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

Yes but the best warrior can beat the best ranger lol. Skill is not the only thing lol being skillful but completely outplaying someone or another class is different. Vyndetta has lost to nnight in a 1v1 and I have beaten Vyn 1v1 as a guard a couple of times. But that’s not what I’m even getting at. Classes are meant to be better at certain aspects and your teams comp and strategy should account for that. The classes IMO are balanced for most part. I’d say roughly 85% of there. Just like a thief has to know his play style if he’s on a team. In anything you do, doesn’t matter if you are on the same level in terms of skill or knowledge, outplaying them is always a possilbity.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

IMO the 1 week you guys won made you act different i never played you that week when you guys did win so i dont know if you guys did get super good like you make it seem. but from all the times we did play and from talking with wale wale well after every game and hiim asking me how you guys can get better it always came down to your comps. and after nnight got off warrior and you guys started playing with a cheese ele is when you started winning.

i dont know if i actually understand the point your trying to make here on this thread.

my point is skill should not be a factored in creating a class. class balance should be factored in reguarding how you win the game. then after the game is balanced skill then determines who wins the game.

First of all good joke lol about the 1 week thing considering how we did as a team is besides the point. Secondly we always had an ele so don’t call us cheese rofl. Weve run our same comp since day one until we lost a player and changed nnight to Mesmer. So idk what lala land you are in but don’t talk about my team in the open or try to put our team down indirectly and think I’m not stupid enough to catch it. Remko never even likd you so don’t even say you talked to him on a regular basis. Good joke.

But like I said that is besides the point and I’m not here to argue over childish stuff and make childish remarks like you. My point is plain simple;

No game wil lever be 100% balanced because not every class is the same. This game is one of the, most if not the most, balanced game out there in the MMO market, yet we still have people who qq constantly about balance. A lot of the QQing over balance is not a balance issue but more so learn to play issue and ANET see’s and understands it. That is why no major nerfs have been made because there is no need.

Everyone stop crying over balance because your class can’t do everything like some other classes can. It’s almost the reason you are the player and they are the devs. Love to see half of the people QQing make a game let alone a balanced one like this.

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

aww so that is the last thing that some might say should be factored in (SKILL) but it cant be factored in because if you take the most skilled ppl. for example the best ranger and the best warrior then it leads back to the class.

hman and nnight wont beat vyndetta or be anywere as useful its just that simple. doesnt matter how good they are.

so yes skill factors in but the classes should be balanced on paper then let skill win matches not classes.

And speaking of nnight, he’s never lost to. A ranger 1v1 on his warrior either lol.

IMO the 1 week you guys won made you act different i never played you that week when you guys did win so i dont know if you guys did get super good like you make it seem. but from all the times we did play and from talking with wale wale well after every game and hiim asking me how you guys can get better it always came down to your comps. and after nnight got off warrior and you guys started playing with a cheese ele is when you started winning.

i dont know if i actually understand the point your trying to make here on this thread.

my point is skill should not be a factored in creating a class. class balance should be factored in reguarding how you win the game. then after the game is balanced skill then determines who wins the game.

First of all good joke lol about the 1 week thing considering how we did as a team is besides the point. Secondly we always had an ele so don’t call us cheese rofl. Weve run our same comp since day one until we lost a player and changed nnight to Mesmer. So idk what lala land you are in but don’t talk about my team in the open or try to put our team down indirectly and think I’m not stupid enough to catch it. Remko never even likd you so don’t even say you talked to him on a regular basis. Good joke.

But like I said that is besides the point and I’m not here to argue over childish stuff and make childish remarks like you. My point is plain simple;

No game wil lever be 100% balanced because not every class is the same. This game is one of the, most if not the most, balanced game out there in the MMO market, yet we still have people who qq constantly about balance. A lot of the QQing over balance is not a balance issue but more so learn to play issue and ANET see’s and understands it. That is why no major nerfs have been made because there is no need.

Everyone stop crying over balance because your class can’t do everything like some other classes can. It’s almost the reason you are the player and they are the devs. Love to see half of the people QQing make a game let alone a balanced one like this.

i congradulated u on winning for a week. im not being subliminal the qp bored showed how ur team did im just stating facts. im not saying you are bad infact i said you were really good. NUT not as much as you are making it out to seem. you guys started doing really well for that week and then even started streaming for that 1 week but please dont take it past that and say warriors are better then rangers and guardians can beat anything because then i will have to tell the truth on you.

on my mesmer yes i have beaten all the classes also im not saying it cant be done. but if we calculated all of my stats on a best out of 10 scenario (which is what i did) then you compared them to eachother in each category against each class then you will find my scores come out perfect.

when vyn was on my team you didnt beat him once. im not saying you didnt get better cause you may have but i find it higley unlikely that you beat and can consistantly beat all the classes. even if you can you said with great positioning? does that mean a lot of time you have to brak of and come back with all your cd? and then does that make it point per minute efficient?

dont get sensitive on me now morfeous i feel its leaning towards that and we are friends just talking.

Synti.6142:

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian is top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

what about ranger and necro were do you place them?

Synti.6142:

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian is top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

Funny how you put engineer at top 3 when not too long ago they were considered useless.

lol @ tier lists.

@ sataar

Lol im not getting sensitive its just how I am. I cant really express emotion but everyone knows that there is only one thing that can ever really get me mad lol. We won for way more then a week is what im saying and qp means nothing. We won I would say about 90% of the games we played. We also played 1 day out of the whole month for the whole 1 round tourney que and then a couple random games some other day against pz. I saw people rack up almost 500 qps from that month alone…..

Our team started out extremely well and beat every team except the first two times we played QT’s. This is why i wish they had ratings/rankings at the time. This was in about November I believe, or closer to December. Our qp’s were not as high because we didn’t have a set a schedule and wouldn’t play for days. And people did not realize we were winning a substantial amount besides vain and hman. Also, vain are the one who convinced us to stream because of it. We finally had a better schedule around January-February to really que.
Also lol, when vyn was with you I was not playing dps as well, I was bunker lol. Bunkers will always lose to a ranger or anything over time. I didn’t switch until nnight went mesmer and I took his place as warrior because we had to run double guard unfortunately for the longest time.

But you are missing my point still lol. I never once said they were better but rather there is no balance needed and that a ranger can lose to guard or warrior. Doesn’t matter if their skill level is even. If you know your team has a comp that will run against stronger comps, you just need to have a different strategy is all Im saying and know how to play it well enough against those comps. But as far as 1v1’s, I have won most of my 1v1’s in tourneys(when it matters cuz most people don’t) against the classes that are all so called better then me 95% of the time. So has nnight. There is one thing I am confident about and that is no one can beat me in a 1v1 consistently unless your an ele. There is only one other player I h8 going against cuz he hurts and that was Nero. But 1v1’s is not what this game is about.

lilz shorty.1879:

@ sataar

Lol im not getting sensitive its just how I am. I cant really express emotion but everyone knows that there is only one thing that can ever really get me mad lol. We won for way more then a week is what im saying and qp means nothing. We won I would say about 90% of the games we played. We also played 1 day out of the whole month for the whole 1 round tourney que and then a couple random games some other day against pz. I saw people rack up almost 500 qps from that month alone…..

Our team started out extremely well and beat every team except the first two times we played QT’s. This is why i wish they had ratings/rankings at the time. This was in about November I believe, or closer to December. Our qp’s were not as high because we didn’t have a set a schedule and wouldn’t play for days. And people did not realize we were winning a substantial amount besides vain and hman. Also, vain are the one who convinced us to stream because of it. We finally had a better schedule around January-February to really que.
Also lol, when vyn was with you I was not playing dps as well, I was bunker lol. Bunkers will always lose to a ranger or anything over time. I didn’t switch until nnight went mesmer and I took his place as warrior because we had to run double guard unfortunately for the longest time.
But you are missing my point still lol. I never once said they were better but rather there is no balance needed and that a ranger can lose to guard or warrior. Doesn’t matter if their skill level is even. If you know your team has a comp that will run against stronger comps, you just need to have a different strategy is all Im saying and know how to play it well enough against those comps. But as far as 1v1’s, I have won most of my 1v1’s in tourneys against the classes that are all so called better then me 95% of the time. So has nnight. But 1v1’s is not what this game is about.

Ex GW1 player? PvP wise you’ve got insight and knowledge comparable to GvG top 50 players pre-ladder reset, glad there are people like you playing GW2, maybe there is hope for the PvP community in this game after all….maybe one day we’ll reach the same level of GW1 PvP wise

Arheundel.6451:

lilz shorty.1879:

@ sataar

Lol im not getting sensitive its just how I am. I cant really express emotion but everyone knows that there is only one thing that can ever really get me mad lol. We won for way more then a week is what im saying and qp means nothing. We won I would say about 90% of the games we played. We also played 1 day out of the whole month for the whole 1 round tourney que and then a couple random games some other day against pz. I saw people rack up almost 500 qps from that month alone…..

Our team started out extremely well and beat every team except the first two times we played QT’s. This is why i wish they had ratings/rankings at the time. This was in about November I believe, or closer to December. Our qp’s were not as high because we didn’t have a set a schedule and wouldn’t play for days. And people did not realize we were winning a substantial amount besides vain and hman. Also, vain are the one who convinced us to stream because of it. We finally had a better schedule around January-February to really que.
Also lol, when vyn was with you I was not playing dps as well, I was bunker lol. Bunkers will always lose to a ranger or anything over time. I didn’t switch until nnight went mesmer and I took his place as warrior because we had to run double guard unfortunately for the longest time.
But you are missing my point still lol. I never once said they were better but rather there is no balance needed and that a ranger can lose to guard or warrior. Doesn’t matter if their skill level is even. If you know your team has a comp that will run against stronger comps, you just need to have a different strategy is all Im saying and know how to play it well enough against those comps. But as far as 1v1’s, I have won most of my 1v1’s in tourneys against the classes that are all so called better then me 95% of the time. So has nnight. But 1v1’s is not what this game is about.

Ex GW1 player? PvP wise you’ve got insight and knowledge comparable to GvG top 50 players pre-ladder reset, glad there are people like you playing GW2, maybe there is hope for the PvP community in this game after all….maybe one day we’ll reach the same level of GW1 PvP wise

Wow that how did you even recognize that lol. Yes I was top 50 and more so top 10 lol. Thats why I wish there was a rating lol and you might occasionally qq about wanting trimmed capes. :’( I miss the gold trim/silver trim capes lol

@lillz shorty

Well in a game with ladder like GW1 was, the only way to reach the top is to consistently beat other top players, basically reach god level, that’s why top players in GW1 were real top players.
At the top level you reach that state of mind that set you apart from the rest ; top players in GW1 truly putted the standards for the entire community both as a person and skill level, you could fall in love with GW1 by simply watching a match between top teams ( GvG mostly but HA was good as well, r12 hero teams were great to watch )

Another thing in GW1 was that top teams would remain at the top regardless of any balance change, this because they had the capacity to quickly adapt their strategy against what was considered strong at any given time, knowing this I have assumed you had already extensive experience from GW1 when dealing with balance^^

lilz shorty.1879:

@ sataar

Lol im not getting sensitive its just how I am. I cant really express emotion but everyone knows that there is only one thing that can ever really get me mad lol. We won for way more then a week is what im saying and qp means nothing. We won I would say about 90% of the games we played. We also played 1 day out of the whole month for the whole 1 round tourney que and then a couple random games some other day against pz. I saw people rack up almost 500 qps from that month alone…..

Our team started out extremely well and beat every team except the first two times we played QT’s. This is why i wish they had ratings/rankings at the time. This was in about November I believe, or closer to December. Our qp’s were not as high because we didn’t have a set a schedule and wouldn’t play for days. And people did not realize we were winning a substantial amount besides vain and hman. Also, vain are the one who convinced us to stream because of it. We finally had a better schedule around January-February to really que.
Also lol, when vyn was with you I was not playing dps as well, I was bunker lol. Bunkers will always lose to a ranger or anything over time. I didn’t switch until nnight went mesmer and I took his place as warrior because we had to run double guard unfortunately for the longest time.

But you are missing my point still lol. I never once said they were better but rather there is no balance needed and that a ranger can lose to guard or warrior. Doesn’t matter if their skill level is even. If you know your team has a comp that will run against stronger comps, you just need to have a different strategy is all Im saying and know how to play it well enough against those comps. But as far as 1v1’s, I have won most of my 1v1’s in tourneys(when it matters cuz most people don’t) against the classes that are all so called better then me 95% of the time. So has nnight. There is one thing I am confident about and that is no one can beat me in a 1v1 consistently unless your an ele. There is only one other player I h8 going against cuz he hurts and that was Nero. But 1v1’s is not what this game is about.

the reason we always beat you guys is because we used strats so i understand the point in strats. but strats only go so far. this game has always turned into comp wars. since day one i always created the winingest team. the only time we would lose was when pz would either take the most op classes at that point and run multiple of them or they would exploit. and i have always been smarter then java and always withen a week would re strat and stomp them into quitting that happened 3 times. the last time i was to busy in real life to make a team so i didnt get to play you guys or them then but strats yes have a part in the game but classes play a much larger part. because they can run the strats better.

but your team didnt start out well at all it took 2 months of me and well wale well talking and figuring out your teams strong points and me going over diferent strats with him. the only map you guys did decent at was foefire because well whale well was better then jaja and your teams team fight was so strong but still it was simple send me to portal play your point and you guys never won.

also the new qt team after me and q left didnt beat anyone so that beat them after the first 2 times isnt impressive at all. at that time they all got big heads and started getting destroyed because they felt they deserved to win. when we were AIM we were a much better team and thats when we got all our QP when there was every top team q ing and we never lost.

but i understand your point now. if you have a good skill team they should be able to win by having better strats? that is wrong
your other point is you can beat people on your guardian in every 1v1? great if you read my post then you would understand 1v1 is a smaller part of how the balance should calculated. but does play a role in the top 3 objectives so i would have to actually see that in action because i dont belieave you for the main reason you say nero scared you and would beat you when me and nero already discussed how all the other classes destroys him and i on our mesmers. so it sounds a little fishy. i think you just wanted to come on this forum and when you heard the truth about guard it upset you so you started fabricating past events and remembered beating a ranger once before and that turned into 90% wins and never losing 1v1’s.

but like i said if karl ever wants to really test this out we can get actual public numbers and you can show us in there.

Arheundel.6451:

@lillz shorty

Well in a game with ladder like GW1 was, the only way to reach the top is to consistently beat other top players, basically reach god level, that’s why top players in GW1 were real top players.
At the top level you reach that state of mind that set you apart from the rest ; top players in GW1 truly putted the standards for the entire community both as a person and skill level, you could fall in love with GW1 by simply watching a match between top teams ( GvG mostly but HA was good as well, r12 hero teams were great to watch )

Another thing in GW1 was that top teams would remain at the top regardless of any balance change, this because they had the capacity to quickly adapt their strategy against what was considered strong at any given time, knowing this I have assumed you had already extensive experience from GW1 when dealing with balance^^

dont confuse my truth about balance with adapting. we have never exploited and never run multi comps and we always had a mesmer and warrior on our team. and we have always beat all the top teams because of our strats and our skill.

the point is it would be easier if the game was balanced. no reason for close games because bad players run great classes and get carried by there classes.

everybody ran back point mesmer except us cause we knew it was weak. just because some kids say its good and 95% of you just listen. when we actually tested it and found out numbers we seen its a bad idea. then 2 months of us non stop winning pz came back for a 4th time and took what i said we already talked about my forum post balance views and they put it to test. they ran the most op classes and dominated they had 2 bad players and 1 decent player and 2 great players but they dominated so hard because there class carried them. so you cant dispute the point when its been proven.

saying we need to adapt is the laziest thing to say. yes we do adapt but we shouldnt have to.

when did this thread became ego wars ?

@lilz

this game is not about 1vs1

I can beat trap rangers as a THIEF, this doesn’t mean a thief is better than a ranger in conquest fight ( especially on khylo).

it seems you’re not understanding saatar point: there’s always a way to beat an OP class, beating an OP comp is another story, because you need to OUTPLAY them.

being able to win against an OP comp doesn’t mean that those classes are not OP, simply it means you’ve played better than them: but when you’re on an even SKILL FIELD, the most OP comp ( or the counter comp) will win.

Even if you would rate the guardian 8, it would still be inferior to a ranger or an ele.

Top class indeed, but still inferior.

And i agree that a guardian can beat a trap ranger, but this is a totally different story.

Mrbig.8019:

when did this thread became ego wars ?

@lilz

this game is not about 1vs1

I can beat trap rangers as a THIEF, this doesn’t mean a thief is better than a ranger in conquest fight ( especially on khylo).

it seems you’re not understanding saatar point: there’s always a way to beat an OP class, beating an OP comp is another story, because you need to OUTPLAY them.

being able to win against an OP comp doesn’t mean that those classes are not OP, simply it means you’ve played better than them: but when you’re on an even SKILL FIELD, the most OP comp ( or the counter comp) will win.

Even if you would rate the guardian 8, it would still be inferior to a ranger or an ele.

Top class indeed, but still inferior.

And i agree that a guardian can beat a trap ranger, but this is a totally different story.

thats all i was saying. even with my ego and nomatter how good i say i am i will admit that mesmer is bad. im not saying im bad just the class is bad. maybe not even bad but just not as good as the 5 that are scored higher then them.

so anyone that takes offense to this post please understand im not targeting people directly im targeting the class as a whole in based of the game mode the devs gave us.

If you basically only take everything that accounts for Node-Control into your equation, I don’t understand why you rate the Mesmer so low, because the Portal is the most important and best Skill in this regard:

1) It allows you to not have Players on 1 Point (or even 2, if you run 2 Mesmers) defending it all the time to keep it safe.
2) It allows you to defend 1 Point instantly with the right amount of Players, making it harder to collapse on a Point.
3) You can use it both offensively and defensively.

No other class comes even close to matching that Potential.

SAtaarcoeny.8476

dont confuse my truth about balance with adapting. we have never exploited and never run multi comps and we always had a mesmer and warrior on our team. and we have always beat all the top teams because of our strats and our skill.

the point is it would be easier if the game was balanced. no reason for close games because bad players run great classes and get carried by there classes.

everybody ran back point mesmer except us cause we knew it was weak. just because some kids say its good and 95% of you just listen. when we actually tested it and found out numbers we seen its a bad idea. then 2 months of us non stop winning pz came back for a 4th time and took what i said we already talked about my forum post balance views and they put it to test. they ran the most op classes and dominated they had 2 bad players and 1 decent player and 2 great players but they dominated so hard because there class carried them. so you cant dispute the point when its been proven.

saying we need to adapt is the laziest thing to say. yes we do adapt but we shouldnt have to.

I understand where you’re coming from, yet I wouldn’t define my suggestion as “lazy” thinking, no matter what you do, the main concept for each profession will remain regardles of any change, sure at any given time the number of players may increase for one profession more than others because of a particular set of changes, because that’s how fotm players act.

To adapt your playstyle is the only choice, there will be always a profession you hate to go against; changes are coming which will affect the meta for the best or for the worst, I’m talking about : boon hate and increased casting time on healing skills for ele, Anet got no intention of removing the water healing or boons stacking but rather allow the opponent to effectively outplay the ele if able to do so

This how it was in GW1, you could strip ench and drain energy on eles, you were able to kill easily bad players but you would still have your kitten served on a silver plate against good ele players who knew what energy management was about

Mrbig.8019:

when did this thread became ego wars ?

@lilz

this game is not about 1vs1

I can beat trap rangers as a THIEF, this doesn’t mean a thief is better than a ranger in conquest fight ( especially on khylo).

it seems you’re not understanding saatar point: there’s always a way to beat an OP class, beating an OP comp is another story, because you need to OUTPLAY them.

being able to win against an OP comp doesn’t mean that those classes are not OP, simply it means you’ve played better than them: but when you’re on an even SKILL FIELD, the most OP comp ( or the counter comp) will win.

Even if you would rate the guardian 8, it would still be inferior to a ranger or an ele.

Top class indeed, but still inferior.

And i agree that a guardian can beat a trap ranger, but this is a totally different story.

I didn’t make it about 1v1s but someone else brought it up. I literally didn’t even mention it until someone else did replying to me. The counter comp or OP comp will not win lol. I’m sorry I disagree completely. Outplaying/outsmarting them is how you win every match as well as winning your own skirmishes. Certain classes are only better then other classes at certain aspects of the game and that’s fine. Just because that’s the case doesn’t mean it’s imbalanced. Doesn’t make a class inferior. Somethings needed to be fixed and most have. Not to the extent people want.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

lilz shorty.1879:

@ sataar

Lol im not getting sensitive its just how I am. I cant really express emotion but everyone knows that there is only one thing that can ever really get me mad lol. We won for way more then a week is what im saying and qp means nothing. We won I would say about 90% of the games we played. We also played 1 day out of the whole month for the whole 1 round tourney que and then a couple random games some other day against pz. I saw people rack up almost 500 qps from that month alone…..

Our team started out extremely well and beat every team except the first two times we played QT’s. This is why i wish they had ratings/rankings at the time. This was in about November I believe, or closer better but rather there is no balance needed and that a ranger can lose to guard or

the reason we always beat you guys is because we used strats so i understand the point in strats. but strats only go so far. this game has always turned into comp wars. since day one i always created the winingest team. the only time we would lose was when pz would either take the most op classes at that point and run multiple of them or they would exploit. and i have always been smarter then java and always withen a week would re strat and stomp them into quitting that happened 3 times. the last time i was to busy in real life to make a team so i didnt get to play you guys or them then but strats yes have a part in the game but classes play a much larger part. because they can run the strats better.

but your team didnt start out well at all it took 2 months of me and well wale well talking and figuring out your teams strong points and me going over diferent strats with him. the only map you guys did decent at was foefire because well whale well was better then jaja and your teams team fight was so strong but still it was simple send me to portal play your point and you guys never won.

also the new qt team after me and q left didnt beat anyone so that beat them after the first 2 times isnt impressive at all. at that time they all got big heads and started getting destroyed because they felt they deserved to win. when we were AIM we were a much better team and thats when we got all our QP when there was every top team q ing and we never lost.

but i understand your point now. if you have a good skill team they should be able to win by having better strats? that is wrong
your other point is you can beat people on your guardian in every 1v1? great if you read my post then you would understand 1v1 is a smaller part of how the balance should calculated. but does play a role in the top 3 objectives so i would have to actually see that in action because i dont belieave you for the main reason you say nero scared you and would beat you when me and nero already discussed how all the other classes destroys him and i on our mesmers. so it sounds a little fishy. i think you just wanted to come on this forum and when you heard the truth about guard it upset you so you started fabricating past events and remembered beating a ranger once before and that turned into 90% wins and never losing 1v1’s.

but like i said if karl ever wants to really test this out we can get actual public numbers and you can show us in there.

Nice lies Sataar lol. I expect nothing less from you to make lies and twist words lol. Anyway calculations lmao? Plus I also said 1v1s don’t matter someone else brought it up and you commented on it. Also you left qt’s? Lol good joke. I’m Albert Einstein too btw.

No I came on this forums cuz I see constant qqs about balance and this had the most views so I posted my opinion and people would see. Lol you think I care what you think lmao? Lol good joke. Not but hurt over anything rofl this is a video game. I will state what I feel anytime anywhere on any thread lol.

P.S. Btw yes I beat mostly anyone 1v1 unless you are an ele. Dont care if you believe me or not. If not makes it easier when people think that and then lose because they think oh it’s just a guard.

Lol pce I’m out. I know you will reply with more lies. You are Sataar lol.

I rue the day people started to actually write “lol”, “lmao” and “rofl” (you especially don’t want to use one of those in every single sentence, as it’s quite obvious to the reader that you’re cracking up after the first one already).

The only thing worse than that is actually hearing them spoken out loudly in a conversation.

@Archer Henchman
You sir, make my e-sports/gaming panties wet.
Educated, intelligent, and thorough. I love reading your insight.

No kitten

@SAtaarcoeny:
Can you take a look and see if thief can excel in a spvp using this build.
Build: ( http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqa8YlcmaPHfS5E+5Ex2jemTey9wpGtpdkittenA;T4Ag0CooqxUjoGbNuak1ssYQxJktIvQmiA )(Acrobatic 10 points with trait II and knight jewel may be missing)
This build has a give a thief the ability to stay in fight longer and provide more pressure forcing players off the nodes. I originally build this build to counter bunker trap ranger and their endless kiting, dodging and healing. This lets the thief excel in range bombardment(P/P #3 unload) from the sideline, presuring players in the middle of the combat zone. Lot of healing + condi removal and good repositioning ability with invi, lots of in combat mobility with sword, steal and infiltrator signet. I personally am able to take down bunkers alone with sword/dagger stripping boons(S/D #3 Flanking Strike) and dealing high melee dmg while able to avoid lots of aoe and ability to disengage when things get ugly. I think this build will bring a asset to the team in team fights and stand-in node person. With healing and strong cc from sword(coming out of stealth backstab) and high dps can force a bunker off the node for some heal or able to contest the node till reinforcement is here.
Downside to this build is that the thief loses it’s out of combat mobility.

What do you think, will this build able to be useful to the team in spvp?

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Synti.6142:

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian is top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

what about ranger and necro were do you place them?

imo, ranger is a little high but okay, necro is like what you say.

@waka: believe it or not, engi is top class now, since hiba create the condi burst build. if you have no boons removal, its hard to fight against them.

lilz shorty.1879:

Mrbig.8019:

when did this thread became ego wars ?

@lilz

this game is not about 1vs1

I can beat trap rangers as a THIEF, this doesn’t mean a thief is better than a ranger in conquest fight ( especially on khylo).

it seems you’re not understanding saatar point: there’s always a way to beat an OP class, beating an OP comp is another story, because you need to OUTPLAY them.

being able to win against an OP comp doesn’t mean that those classes are not OP, simply it means you’ve played better than them: but when you’re on an even SKILL FIELD, the most OP comp ( or the counter comp) will win.

Even if you would rate the guardian 8, it would still be inferior to a ranger or an ele.

Top class indeed, but still inferior.

And i agree that a guardian can beat a trap ranger, but this is a totally different story.

Outplaying/outsmarting them is how you win every match as well as winning your own skirmishes.

that’s not how a game should be balanced around, i’m sorry.

In order to have good balance you have to create an environment where the SKILL factor is as even as possible, and where the only thing changing is team composition.

Simply because “you can somehow manage to win”, it doesn’t mean that stuff doesn’t need to be balanced: according to your reasoning, mace block bug was not gamebreaking because you could still “somehow” beat the guardian, or RTL on spirit watch is not gamebreaking simply because you can still immo the ele.

This is the worst way possible to reason about balance.

Mrbig.8019:

In order to have good balance you have to create an environment where the SKILL factor is as even as possible, and where the only thing changing is team composition.

Query: is this saying that among players of equal skill many team compositions should be evenly matched?

mbh.8301:

Mrbig.8019:

In order to have good balance you have to create an environment where the SKILL factor is as even as possible, and where the only thing changing is team composition.

Query: is this saying that among players of equal skill many team compositions should be evenly matched?

That’s the idea.

that’s why OVERALL balance in this game is not THAT bad, but when we talk about build diversity and the HUGE disadvantage of not having a bunker/ele/ranger/ AoE class ( necro or enge) in your team, then there’s something off.

I really disagree with your assessment of engis as well as the ranking. Personally I think they’re the best class in the game, but a point holder/neuter? As an HGH nade engi that’s hardly the case. In every single fight I implement one form of kiting or another and depend on LOS to survive for as long as I do. The last thing I want to do is try and hold a point. That’s not the job of a condi engi. Even mesmers do a better job at that. We only have, lengthy CD stun break to keep us up.

But like I said, I believe engis are the best class in the game. Just not at point holding or neuting (if they’re not bunkers, that’s another story).

DevilsGlare.7658:

@Archer Henchman
You sir, make my e-sports/gaming panties wet.
Educated, intelligent, and thorough. I love reading your insight.

No kitten

I’m really happy to hear this from you.

Since you were in one of two teams that used to give us issues, I watched your play intensely for a long while to figure out a solution. You had, out of every player in the game, the best timing to leave fights. You’d dip and get out with 5% hp reliably, which was infurating. Ele might have been strong, but your slipperiness maximized its effectiveness and made it difficult to pressure you out of your setups, which let hman overextend into our backline without much worry.

You’re actually one of the players who’s footage let me think about GW2 in terms of pressure. The notion of pressure became really common in GW1 around the time that eles started taking rodgort and R/W thumpers became a thing, but no one really saw effectiveness in team fights as net damage output in GW2 because people were focused on thinking about what killed them rather than what set them up for a kill. I think the downed state mechanics led people astray in their analysis on that point. Who gives a kitten if you can res if you’re going to lose 80% of your hp to do it, then promptly go back down? The other was powerr on necro. I shifted heavily to shortbow because of what I saw from your play.

Its kind of a shame that I didn’t bother saying any of this when I saw a future for the game. Nuts.

PowerBottom.5796:

If you basically only take everything that accounts for Node-Control into your equation, I don’t understand why you rate the Mesmer so low, because the Portal is the most important and best Skill in this regard:

1) It allows you to not have Players on 1 Point (or even 2, if you run 2 Mesmers) defending it all the time to keep it safe.
2) It allows you to defend 1 Point instantly with the right amount of Players, making it harder to collapse on a Point.
3) You can use it both offensively and defensively.

No other class comes even close to matching that Potential.

i explained it twice already. but again. if you portal something weak into something strong then the weak thing still dies.

if you just pop the portal then the mesmer is out of the fight for 90 seconds.

now if your saying that the portal makes the mesmer good because he can get back to a node and die then that is wrong.

if your saying you can commit 5 ppl to a mid fight because you dont have to worry about back node? well most 5v5 fights take longer then 60 seconds so then the portal is out of the question anyway because its gone. so 1 min into the fight we send an ele to go back cap. now the mesmer was even more useless.

after talking with kaypud and java before pz came back the last time they all agreed with me that mesmer was aweful. and you even said it in your stream that there is way better classes to back point because they can actually win the fight. correct?

PowerBottom.5796:

If you basically only take everything that accounts for Node-Control into your equation, I don’t understand why you rate the Mesmer so low, because the Portal is the most important and best Skill in this regard:

1) It allows you to not have Players on 1 Point (or even 2, if you run 2 Mesmers) defending it all the time to keep it safe.
2) It allows you to defend 1 Point instantly with the right amount of Players, making it harder to collapse on a Point.
3) You can use it both offensively and defensively.

No other class comes even close to matching that Potential.

I like your name PowerBottom.

LonelyReaper.8075:

@SAtaarcoeny:
Can you take a look and see if thief can excel in a spvp using this build.
Build: ( http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqa8YlcmaPHfS5E+5Ex2jemTey9wpGtpdkittenA;T4Ag0CooqxUjoGbNuak1ssYQxJktIvQmiA )(Acrobatic 10 points with trait II and knight jewel may be missing)
This build has a give a thief the ability to stay in fight longer and provide more pressure forcing players off the nodes. I originally build this build to counter bunker trap ranger and their endless kiting, dodging and healing. This lets the thief excel in range bombardment(P/P #3 unload) from the sideline, presuring players in the middle of the combat zone. Lot of healing + condi removal and good repositioning ability with invi, lots of in combat mobility with sword, steal and infiltrator signet. I personally am able to take down bunkers alone with sword/dagger stripping boons(S/D #3 Flanking Strike) and dealing high melee dmg while able to avoid lots of aoe and ability to disengage when things get ugly. I think this build will bring a asset to the team in team fights and stand-in node person. With healing and strong cc from sword(coming out of stealth backstab) and high dps can force a bunker off the node for some heal or able to contest the node till reinforcement is here.
Downside to this build is that the thief loses it’s out of combat mobility.

What do you think, will this build able to be useful to the team in spvp?

any build can be good if played right but the main problem is the invis.

last week me and davinchi was practicing with him on an ele with vexeus’s build and everytime we played against a thief we would wait to see if they was going to pressure back node all game and if they did davinchi would just come back and 1v1 them and some were really tanky but reguardless he would always cap on them really fast.

but i will get a guy to test this build out and see for sure.

remember everything can eventually kill a bunker guard but it comes down to the time cost efficiency, and points per minute.

i dont see this build being able to outplay the other classes in either killing and keeping a point long enough to gain your team more points then the other classes can.

(but we are going to try it out) also can you send me a private msg with a new link this one is not working for me.

Synti.6142:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Synti.6142:

Elemantlist, Engineer, Guardian is top 3 class in this game.Thief, Mesmer and Warrior are still far too low in their comparative ratings.

what about ranger and necro were do you place them?

imo, ranger is a little high but okay, necro is like what you say.

@waka: believe it or not, engi is top class now, since hiba create the condi burst build. if you have no boons removal, its hard to fight against them.

the reason i rated the ranger higher then the engi is because the elite is so much better. and the speed rez and speed stomps are so good. everything else they were pretty much even.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I really disagree with your assessment of engis as well as the ranking. Personally I think they’re the best class in the game, but a point holder/neuter? As an HGH nade engi that’s hardly the case. In every single fight I implement one form of kiting or another and depend on LOS to survive for as long as I do. The last thing I want to do is try and hold a point. That’s not the job of a condi engi. Even mesmers do a better job at that. We only have, lengthy CD stun break to keep us up.

But like I said, I believe engis are the best class in the game. Just not at point holding or neuting (if they’re not bunkers, that’s another story).

i do also think engis are extremley good right now. but without the holding and neuting as wwell as some the others then there score has to come down a little.

i really like how there is a pure gib build. a great condi build and a great bunker build. and i had to score them on all 3 seperate which is why engi was my favorite class to judge. i feel that every class should be like engi and if it becomes that way then games wont be so obvious.

for example when i play against good guy chaith i never know what to expect.

Archer Henchman.2534:

DevilsGlare.7658:

@Archer Henchman
You sir, make my e-sports/gaming panties wet.
Educated, intelligent, and thorough. I love reading your insight.

No kitten

I’m really happy to hear this from you.

Since you were in one of two teams that used to give us issues, I watched your play intensely for a long while to figure out a solution. You had, out of every player in the game, the best timing to leave fights. You’d dip and get out with 5% hp reliably, which was infurating. Ele might have been strong, but your slipperiness maximized its effectiveness and made it difficult to pressure you out of your setups, which let hman overextend into our backline without much worry.

You’re actually one of the players who’s footage let me think about GW2 in terms of pressure. The notion of pressure became really common in GW1 around the time that eles started taking rodgort and R/W thumpers became a thing, but no one really saw effectiveness in team fights as net damage output in GW2 because people were focused on thinking about what killed them rather than what set them up for a kill. I think the downed state mechanics led people astray in their analysis on that point. Who gives a kitten if you can res if you’re going to lose 80% of your hp to do it, then promptly go back down? The other was powerr on necro. I shifted heavily to shortbow because of what I saw from your play.

Its kind of a shame that I didn’t bother saying any of this when I saw a future for the game. Nuts.

this game still has a future. and i to enjoy reading your posts on here. i wish i could write as good as you.

Bar all the egotisical bullkitten in the thread, it was a really good interesting read.

I’ve been smashed by OP’s team a few times.
Must pick his brains at some point regarding tatics as I think my teams major problem at the moment is what to do when kitten goes sideways.

Even things as far as opening gambits (for lack of a better term) can be quite advanced when you start looking at counters and counter counters.

I disagree with your low rating of mesmers. Mesmers are quite strong and are extremely good at dealing with teams heavy on burst power dps , warriors/thiefs.
HOWEVER, i do feel that the average poster on the forums overrates how deadly mesmers are. They are NOT godmode. In fact i think they are reasonably balanced, w perhaps only timewarp being a little strong.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Ok I’ll have a go:

Ele (10/10) for the reasons you mentioned.

Guardian (9/10): a well played guard can keep on a point, stop it from being taken against 2 players for long enough for help to come (ie great at 2 of your 3 points)

Necro (8.5/10): rez is a game changer, good at any three of your points.

Engineer (8/10): can be great at holding a point or as a roamer looking for the instant kill. KBs/nets/turrets etc are great for point control

Ranger (8/10): Trap ranger is good at defending a point 1vs1 but not 2vs1. Also not as powerful at attacking point. Other ranger builds are surprisingly good, people are just fixated on trap ranger. I would say BM or full dps build would be 7 or 8/10 depending on the make up of the other team.

Thief (8/10): Great at capping/backcapping, amazing burst and stomping abilities can change a fight. A caltrops build can keep a point neutralized against 2 players almost indefinately (depending on other builds).

Mesmer (8/10): again depending on build, but offers amazing team mobility through portal, and amazing burst or survivability again relevant to all three of your points.

Warrior (7.5/10): can have great mobility for capping fast, has great team synergy and can apply huge and powerful aoe damage, absolutely devistating when paired with good cc class like engi. Slightly behind the other classes overall on your criteria.

lilz shorty.1879:

I didn’t make it about 1v1s but someone else brought it up. I literally didn’t even mention it until someone else did replying to me. The counter comp or OP comp will not win lol. I’m sorry I disagree completely. Outplaying/outsmarting them is how you win every match as well as winning your own skirmishes. Certain classes are only better then other classes at certain aspects of the game and that’s fine. Just because that’s the case doesn’t mean it’s imbalanced. Doesn’t make a class inferior. Somethings needed to be fixed and most have. Not to the extent people want.

Yay someone gets it, just because you lose to something new for a day doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to win!

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Ok I’ll have a go:

Ele (10/10) for the reasons you mentioned.

Guardian (9/10): a well played guard can keep on a point, stop it from being taken against 2 players for long enough for help to come (ie great at 2 of your 3 points)

Necro (8.5/10): rez is a game changer, good at any three of your points.

Engineer (8/10): can be great at holding a point or as a roamer looking for the instant kill. KBs/nets/turrets etc are great for point control

Ranger (8/10): Trap ranger is good at defending a point 1vs1 but not 2vs1. Also not as powerful at attacking point. Other ranger builds are surprisingly good, people are just fixated on trap ranger. I would say BM or full dps build would be 7 or 8/10 depending on the make up of the other team.

Thief (8/10): Great at capping/backcapping, amazing burst and stomping abilities can change a fight. A caltrops build can keep a point neutralized against 2 players almost indefinately (depending on other builds).

Mesmer (8/10): again depending on build, but offers amazing team mobility through portal, and amazing burst or survivability again relevant to all three of your points.

Warrior (7.5/10): can have great mobility for capping fast, has great team synergy and can apply huge and powerful aoe damage, absolutely devistating when paired with good cc class like engi. Slightly behind the other classes overall on your criteria.

i think you might be forgetting to compare each class to all the other 8 in every different genre. the best at whatever you are judging should get more points and then less and less for each class below that. then you add all the points after every category and then you give the final score.

Didn’t realize this kind of player was plaguing GW2.

To quote one of the better works – “Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking”

Copy and paste the link on the browser: (http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqa8YlcmaPHfS5E+5Ex2jemTey9wpGtpdkittenA;T4Ag0CooqxUjoGbNuak1ssYQxJktIvQmiA)

For this build, Pistol/Pistol is your best weapon to initiate with and will be use during most of the combat phase. Sword/dagger is use more defensively with CnD to reposition and Flanking strike against hard melee fight or build that don’t fair so well against melee fighters and boon bunkers. I take dagger storm for ultimate as I used it when some of my defensive cd are all down and being aim from all sides, this give me some heals(from signet of malice) and immunity against range atks to buy time till my cd are back up. You have to time your cd well and reposition yourself well to stay in fights, it get harder to counter the pure dmg unload can dish out as your opponent uses their cd.
Give it a test, and tell me your feedback and what do you think about it.

I’m not sure how relevant this is,
but I was in a tourny earlier today, where I ran into a guardian.
Now, I consider myself a relatively capable player and can usually go most games without dying and still perform for my team.
I play d/p mostly, and my Shadow Shot hits [most] targets for around 1200.
Against this guardian, I was hitting 800s consistently, no weakness
And this is fine.
However, at the same time, the first time I engaged him I was killed almost instantly. I had never seen this sort of damage before from a guardian at all, especially with that sort of mitigation.
I engaged him a second time, and while I was more careful and acute, preventing myself from going down for the duration of the encounter (although there where many spikes where I could’ve lost it with another hit) I still couldn’t bring him below 60%.
I can usually 1v1 most classes. Other thieves seem to be my biggest problem, but the arbitrary difficulty of bunker ele’s is completely lost on me — I either run s/d offhand or Bountiful Theft to steal boons and they are a walk in the park.

This guardian was different. And while I wish I had more evidence to provide you, this was in the middle of a heated match. This particular guardian stuck to his treb like glue the whole game and I only engaged him the 2 times. The first ended because I died almost instantly, and the second because a teammate came to assist him so I bailed.

I believe Guardians are more deserving of a higher rating.

Also. Thief should be higher than Mes.
Infiltrator’s Arrow is the best mobility skill in the game, no question.
Depending on the map (and most maps, it’s absolutely favoured) IA can have you moving around faster than any other class could ever possibly achieve.
This is counter-balanced by how much damage Thieves take, yes.
But that is counter-balanced by our flexible access to stealth / dodge mechanics.
Which is also counter-balanced to node-capping, and how stealth / dodging hinders it.

Overall, I think well-played thieves on an appropriate map deserve no less than 7.5, the perma-poison/weakness single target with d/p, the AoE bleed/poison/weakness with sb, boon removal, traited AoE team boons on steal, so many team bonuses a thief provides, I don’t believe the squishiness truly emancipates us from that tier of professions.

DPS-Guardians can easily one-shot unwarily thieves. As many ppl expect guards to be bunkers. As we also have a dps guardian in our setup I can tell you this build is pretty on top.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Ok I’ll have a go:

Ele (10/10) for the reasons you mentioned.

Guardian (9/10): a well played guard can keep on a point, stop it from being taken against 2 players for long enough for help to come (ie great at 2 of your 3 points)

Necro (8.5/10): rez is a game changer, good at any three of your points.

Engineer (8/10): can be great at holding a point or as a roamer looking for the instant kill. KBs/nets/turrets etc are great for point control

Ranger (8/10): Trap ranger is good at defending a point 1vs1 but not 2vs1. Also not as powerful at attacking point. Other ranger builds are surprisingly good, people are just fixated on trap ranger. I would say BM or full dps build would be 7 or 8/10 depending on the make up of the other team.

Thief (8/10): Great at capping/backcapping, amazing burst and stomping abilities can change a fight. A caltrops build can keep a point neutralized against 2 players almost indefinately (depending on other builds).

Mesmer (8/10): again depending on build, but offers amazing team mobility through portal, and amazing burst or survivability again relevant to all three of your points.

Warrior (7.5/10): can have great mobility for capping fast, has great team synergy and can apply huge and powerful aoe damage, absolutely devistating when paired with good cc class like engi. Slightly behind the other classes overall on your criteria.

i think you might be forgetting to compare each class to all the other 8 in every different genre. the best at whatever you are judging should get more points and then less and less for each class below that. then you add all the points after every category and then you give the final score.

I find each class to be pretty even across the criteria you have set, as reflected in my scores. Guardians and eles stand out because they are the best node holders/neutralizers, while eles pull ahead because they have incredible mobility as well (for taking backpoint/reinforcing team).

There is no way that warrior can get a 3 and ranger a 9, for example. I think you are just being melodramatic and attention seeking. Of course it sounds way cooler to say that there are these huge balance issues in the game, but when it comes down to it each class shines in its own way even under your criteria for what balance should be judged on in tpvp.

Both ranger and ele were seen as the weakest classes in tpvp at one point, but now despite being nerfed (ranger at least) they are rated as the strongest. I think this demonstrates that any lack of balance is small and needs only slight adjustment, not the total overhaul your ratings suggest. In fact perhaps nerfing warriors would be the way to go-it worked for ranger after all.

Arheundel.6451:

This how it was in GW1, you could strip ench and drain energy on eles, you were able to kill easily bad players but you would still have your kitten served on a silver plate against good ele players who knew what energy management was about

With the big difference being e-management back in the days was on a completely diff level (difficulty-wise) than it is now. Actually, throwing e management out the window was another big step backwards for Anet.
But yea, one of my main issues with GW2 is your skills often just don’t do kitten, or don’t do much to start with. On GW, skills and their usage actually matters, and the result of using it at the right time is immediate (team wipes after diversion/d shot/interrupt on elite heal at the right time, and the consequent rez signet interrupts).

Anyhow, builds and team setups have ALWAYS been a large factor in GW (bar for the few distinct balanced, more execution-heavy setups over the years), and plenty overpowered/broken setups tended to stick around for quite some time before finally toned down, or nerfed to the ground, whichever Mr Izzy felt like doing.
If that is the players’ main complaint about this game in high-end tpvp, then you’re playing the wrong game. Especially because I cannot even imagine how a ‘balanced’ setup would look like, given the role and proffession pidgeon-holing you see in tpvp (e.g. nothing about full glass cannons , or fully defensive bunkers is balanced).

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

DPS-Guardians can easily one-shot unwarily thieves. As many ppl expect guards to be bunkers. As we also have a dps guardian in our setup I can tell you this build is pretty on top.

Dps guards can take on many things…they’re brutal…hit like a truck, relatively tanky, spam burning round the clock, have solid cond removal, gozzilion knockbacks, bleh (that’s roughly what I remember from the last time I was facing a decent dps guard, at least). Not something my nec wants to face again without full ds and several stacks of corruption :c (ok, even with that).

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

i explained it twice already. but again. if you portal something weak into something strong then the weak thing still dies.

if you just pop the portal then the mesmer is out of the fight for 90 seconds.

now if your saying that the portal makes the mesmer good because he can get back to a node and die then that is wrong.

if your saying you can commit 5 ppl to a mid fight because you dont have to worry about back node? well most 5v5 fights take longer then 60 seconds so then the portal is out of the question anyway because its gone. so 1 min into the fight we send an ele to go back cap. now the mesmer was even more useless.

after talking with kaypud and java before pz came back the last time they all agreed with me that mesmer was aweful. and you even said it in your stream that there is way better classes to back point because they can actually win the fight. correct?

I’m kinda baffled about your strategic understanding of how to use a Portal, because your Points are valid, but a good Mesmer in a good Team can easily find a way around those Situations and the lack of a Portal has much more negative Aspects (on most Maps).

First of all, you don’t need to Port the Mesmer back necessarily, but you can choose the best possible composition to go defend (or attack when used offensively), restrained only by what Chars are near the Portals. In a game where you have Chars that can hold points against multiple Opponents and Matchups that often favour one Char or one composition of Chars, you can often create favourable Situations very quickly.

Another Point is, that good Mesmers won’t use the Portal if it’s not necessary and leave a fight (if they aren’t completely necessary and winning that fight he’s in would be more important than defending a Point) to walk back to the Point they are Portalguarding, greatly diminishing the recast of the Portal. The most important Skill in terms of strategic understanding of the Game of a Mesmer is knowing when he can walk away from a fight, for the sole reason of not having to Pop the Portal. If you have this Skill, you can reduce the time spent out of combat and even do it in a way, where this lesser time spent out of combat, is executed in situations where the Mesmer isn’t necessary for a favourable outcome of the Match. This could mean you can hold or decap a Point without the Mesmer or you can loose a certain fight and maybe loose a node, but still be fine with it overall.

There are some very useful Plays you can do only with a Portal that will enable you to cap Nodes, where it would be almost impossible otherwise, by creating favourable Situations for your Team in both Number of Players and favourable Composition. Take this Situation for example:

You’re on the Forest with a “normal” Setup (3 more offensiv Chars, 2 more defensive) and the opponent has 2 Nodes. You leave 1 defensive Char at your node and try to run to the opponents Node (guarded by 2-3 Players). If you can do that undetected (invis ftw.) you have a good Chance to have created a Situation that favours your Team, which forces the opponent to send support, pop Portals etc. The smart part is, that while running to the opponents Point, your Mesmer dropped a hidden Portal in the Middle. If you can’t cap their homenode (which should have favoured your Team), you just w8 for the reinforcement of the opponent to arrive there and w8 for the opponents Portal-Exit to run out. Now you pop your Portal and your Team of 4 is at the Middle, creating another highly favourable Situation for you.

Tell me how you can decap anything against an equally skilled team with 2 Nodes and a Mesmer keeping the 2 Nodes connected, without having a Portal yourself? There is no way, because even if your Team is better in Teamfights, it’s not better if the opponent can freely rearrange the number of Players and the composition.

There are some smart ways of dealing with Portals, but they often require specific Builds (trapper to counter Portals) and they still don’t mean you cannot run a Portal yourself, because Portal is so versatile, that it cannot be “hard-countered” (which means doing sth. that simply makes the Portal useless).

But I’d have to agree with you, that good Teams (like the Top-5 Teams of each region), can win against any other Team thats not in the Top-5, without running a Portal. This is because the Skill-Gap between the Top-Teams and the Rest is huge and because the strategical understanding and possibilities of the game (not only considering the Portal, but in general), is simply not that high yet, even in Top-Teams. (This is mostly because of lack of highly skilled opposition and because the game is still kinda young).

Verisuvalise.3615:

I’m not sure how relevant this is,
but I was in a tourny earlier today, where I ran into a guardian.
Now, I consider myself a relatively capable player and can usually go most games without dying and still perform for my team.
I play d/p mostly, and my Shadow Shot hits [most] targets for around 1200.
Against this guardian, I was hitting 800s consistently, no weakness
And this is fine.
However, at the same time, the first time I engaged him I was killed almost instantly. I had never seen this sort of damage before from a guardian at all, especially with that sort of mitigation.
I engaged him a second time, and while I was more careful and acute, preventing myself from going down for the duration of the encounter (although there where many spikes where I could’ve lost it with another hit) I still couldn’t bring him below 60%.
I can usually 1v1 most classes. Other thieves seem to be my biggest problem, but the arbitrary difficulty of bunker ele’s is completely lost on me — I either run s/d offhand or Bountiful Theft to steal boons and they are a walk in the park.

This guardian was different. And while I wish I had more evidence to provide you, this was in the middle of a heated match. This particular guardian stuck to his treb like glue the whole game and I only engaged him the 2 times. The first ended because I died almost instantly, and the second because a teammate came to assist him so I bailed.

I believe Guardians are more deserving of a higher rating.

Also. Thief should be higher than Mes.
Infiltrator’s Arrow is the best mobility skill in the game, no question.
Depending on the map (and most maps, it’s absolutely favoured) IA can have you moving around faster than any other class could ever possibly achieve.
This is counter-balanced by how much damage Thieves take, yes.
But that is counter-balanced by our flexible access to stealth / dodge mechanics.
Which is also counter-balanced to node-capping, and how stealth / dodging hinders it.

Overall, I think well-played thieves on an appropriate map deserve no less than 7.5, the perma-poison/weakness single target with d/p, the AoE bleed/poison/weakness with sb, boon removal, traited AoE team boons on steal, so many team bonuses a thief provides, I don’t believe the squishiness truly emancipates us from that tier of professions.

i told morfeus that i do want to see his dps guardian in action against all the top players in the classes and then the score could go up. depending on time it can kill classes compared to other classes.

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

Yasha.5963:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

So after watching the SOTG and hearing that balance was done by listening to the forums had me confused? i had to watch it a second time to make sure it wasn’t a joke.

I think balance should be done based off of whats important in this game; and in this game its point control:
Capping,
Holding,
Neutralizing,
(Team fights/1v1 contribute to the top 3)

Ok I’ll have a go:

Ele (10/10) for the reasons you mentioned.

Guardian (9/10): a well played guard can keep on a point, stop it from being taken against 2 players for long enough for help to come (ie great at 2 of your 3 points)

Necro (8.5/10): rez is a game changer, good at any three of your points.

Engineer (8/10): can be great at holding a point or as a roamer looking for the instant kill. KBs/nets/turrets etc are great for point control

Ranger (8/10): Trap ranger is good at defending a point 1vs1 but not 2vs1. Also not as powerful at attacking point. Other ranger builds are surprisingly good, people are just fixated on trap ranger. I would say BM or full dps build would be 7 or 8/10 depending on the make up of the other team.

Thief (8/10): Great at capping/backcapping, amazing burst and stomping abilities can change a fight. A caltrops build can keep a point neutralized against 2 players almost indefinately (depending on other builds).

Mesmer (8/10): again depending on build, but offers amazing team mobility through portal, and amazing burst or survivability again relevant to all three of your points.

Warrior (7.5/10): can have great mobility for capping fast, has great team synergy and can apply huge and powerful aoe damage, absolutely devistating when paired with good cc class like engi. Slightly behind the other classes overall on your criteria.

i think you might be forgetting to compare each class to all the other 8 in every different genre. the best at whatever you are judging should get more points and then less and less for each class below that. then you add all the points after every category and then you give the final score.

I find each class to be pretty even across the criteria you have set, as reflected in my scores. Guardians and eles stand out because they are the best node holders/neutralizers, while eles pull ahead because they have incredible mobility as well (for taking backpoint/reinforcing team).

There is no way that warrior can get a 3 and ranger a 9, for example. I think you are just being melodramatic and attention seeking. Of course it sounds way cooler to say that there are these huge balance issues in the game, but when it comes down to it each class shines in its own way even under your criteria for what balance should be judged on in tpvp.

Both ranger and ele were seen as the weakest classes in tpvp at one point, but now despite being nerfed (ranger at least) they are rated as the strongest. I think this demonstrates that any lack of balance is small and needs only slight adjustment, not the total overhaul your ratings suggest. In fact perhaps nerfing warriors would be the way to go-it worked for ranger after all.

well when they nerf one class then buff the other class it makes a big difference. thats why my old posts used to say buff the classes until they are even. but they instead nerfed so hard and slightly buffed the others and now were in the mess were in.

PowerBottom.5796:

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

i explained it twice already. but again. if you portal something weak into something strong then the weak thing still dies.

if you just pop the portal then the mesmer is out of the fight for 90 seconds.

after talking with kaypud and java before pz came back the last time they all agreed with me that mesmer was aweful. and you even said it in your stream that there is way better classes to back point because they can actually win the fight. correct?

I’m kinda baffled about your strategic understanding of how to use a Portal, because your Points are valid, but a good Mesmer in a good Team can easily find a way around those Situations and the lack of a Portal has much more negative Aspects (on most Maps).

First of all, you don’t need to Port the Mesmer back necessarily, but you can choose the best possible composition to go defend (or attack when used offensively), restrained only by what Chars are near the Portals. In a game where you have Chars that can hold points against multiple Opponents and Matchups that often favour one Char or one composition of Chars, you can often create favourable Situations very quickly.

Another Point is, that good Mesmers won’t use the Portal if it’s not necessary and leave a fight (if they aren’t completely necessary and winning that fight he’s in would be more important than defending a Point) to walk back to the Point they are Portalguarding, greatly diminishing the recast of the Portal. The most important Skill in terms of strategic understanding of the Game of a Mesmer is knowing when he can walk away from a fight, for the sole reason of not having to Pop the Portal. If you have this Skill, you can reduce the time spent out of combat and even do it in a way, where this lesser time spent out of combat, is executed in situations where the Mesmer isn’t necessary for a favourable outcome of the Match. This could mean you can hold or decap a Point without the Mesmer or you can loose a certain fight and maybe loose a node, but still be fine with it overall.

There are some very useful Plays you can do only with a Portal that will enable you to cap Nodes, where it would be almost impossible otherwise, by creating favourable Situations for your Team in both Number of Players and favourable Composition. Take this Situation for example:

You’re on the Forest with a “normal” Setup (3 more offensiv Chars, 2 more defensive) and the opponent has 2 Nodes. You leave 1 defensive Char at your node and try to run to the opponents Node (guarded by 2-3 Players). If you can do that undetected (invis ftw.) you have a good Chance to have created a Situation that favours your Team, which forces the opponent to send support, pop Portals etc. The smart part is, that while running to the opponents Point, your Mesmer dropped a hidden Portal in the Middle. If you can’t cap their homenode (which should have favoured your Team), you just w8 for the reinforcement of the opponent to arrive there and w8 for the opponents Portal-Exit to run out. Now you pop your Portal and your Team of 4 is at the Middle, creating another highly favourable Situation for you.

Tell me how you can decap anything against an equally skilled team with 2 Nodes and a Mesmer keeping the 2 Nodes connected, without having a Portal yourself? There is no way, because even if your Team is better in Teamfights, it’s not better if the opponent can freely rearrange the number of Players and the composition.

There are some smart ways of dealing with Portals, but they often require specific Builds (trapper to counter Portals) and they still don’t mean you cannot run a Portal yourself, because Portal is so versatile, that it cannot be “hard-countered” (which means doing sth. that simply makes the Portal useless).

But I’d have to agree with you, that good Teams (like the Top-5 Teams of each region), can win against any other Team thats not in the Top-5, without running a Portal. This is because the Skill-Gap between the Top-Teams and the Rest is huge and because the strategical understanding and possibilities of the game (not only considering the Portal, but in general), is simply not that high yet, even in Top-Teams. (This is mostly because of lack of highly skilled opposition and because the game is still kinda young).

i do understand how to use the portal perfect and that is probably the only thing keeping me from going ranger. its just so frustrating that portal is what makes a mesmer anything. i would rather get class buffs and lose portal to be honest because portal just isnt worth being so bad.

remember im not looking at this from my POV but from every other mesmer i see in the game. when we see another mesmer we just laugh and it shouldnt be that way. i want to fear every class.

SAtaarcoeny.8476:

i do understand how to use the portal perfect and that is probably the only thing keeping me from going ranger. its just so frustrating that portal is what makes a mesmer anything. i would rather get class buffs and lose portal to be honest because portal just isnt worth being so bad.

remember im not looking at this from my POV but from every other mesmer i see in the game. when we see another mesmer we just laugh and it shouldnt be that way. i want to fear every class.

The good thing about being mesmer is that not many ppl have a clue about all mechanics of it, this is why some ppl here would rate the mesmer higher.

mesmer doing a tier list and placing his own class way beneath his actual performance is really sad. Hypocrite id say.

Follidus.8027:

lilz shorty.1879:

I didn’t make it about 1v1s but someone else brought it up. I literally didn’t even mention it until someone else did replying to me. The counter comp or OP comp will not win lol. I’m sorry I disagree completely. Outplaying/outsmarting them is how you win every match as well as winning your own skirmishes. Certain classes are only better then other classes at certain aspects of the game and that’s fine. Just because that’s the case doesn’t mean it’s imbalanced. Doesn’t make a class inferior. Somethings needed to be fixed and most have. Not to the extent people want.

Yay someone gets it, just because you lose to something new for a day doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to win!

The point is when that “new stuff” cannot be counterplayed by the comp, but can only be overcome with SKILL.

This goes into a cycle where you assume the “cheese comp” will always be less skilled than those playing the “other comp”.

Well, it’s not always the case: you have to assume both teams are on an equal skill level and then balance accordingly.

Simply because you can overcome something “somehow”, it doesn’t mean it’s balanced.

Otherwise i can’t really understand all the fuss about stuff lik svanir’s rune bug, mace block bug or shattered strenght pre-nerf.

Current meta is obviously cheese based , eles are ruining the game, the problem surely is not trap rangers and “projectile reflections” lack in meta builds.

Mrbig.8019:

Follidus.8027:

lilz shorty.1879:

I didn’t make it about 1v1s but someone else brought it up. I literally didn’t even mention it until someone else did replying to me. The counter comp or OP comp will not win lol. I’m sorry I disagree completely. Outplaying/outsmarting them is how you win every match as well as winning your own skirmishes. Certain classes are only better then other classes at certain aspects of the game and that’s fine. Just because that’s the case doesn’t mean it’s imbalanced. Doesn’t make a class inferior. Somethings needed to be fixed and most have. Not to the extent people want.

Yay someone gets it, just because you lose to something new for a day doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to win!

The point is when that “new stuff” cannot be counterplayed by the comp, but can only be overcome with SKILL.

This goes into a cycle where you assume the “cheese comp” will always be less skilled than those playing the “other comp”.

Well, it’s not always the case: you have to assume both teams are on an equal skill level and then balance accordingly.

Simply because you can overcome something “somehow”, it doesn’t mean it’s balanced.

Otherwise i can’t really understand all the fuss about stuff lik svanir’s rune bug, mace block bug or shattered strenght pre-nerf.

Current meta is obviously cheese based , eles are ruining the game, the problem surely is not trap rangers and “projectile reflections” lack in meta builds.

yes that is one big feeling i have always had and has led to my 3 1 class allowed in match topics. we always feel like we are the underdog and it shouldnt feel that way. we should be on a even ground to start.

obviously we can overcome the hardships this game has put against us like all the bug and exploits and the unknowingly making some classes so op. but we shouldnt have to overcome the deficit of the balance and bugs and then on top of that we then have to totaly out play them. it just doesnt logically make sense.

make it so you can only have 1 class allowed then it will make sense