Guild Wars 2

Current rewards system promotes AFK behavior in hotjoin games and sometimes even in Solo Arena games or even Team Arena games.

Current rewards (Rank Points, Coins, Rewards Track) are very static regardless of how active each players’ participation may be.

Players spent a lot of effort and players who only participated just enough to get some personal points in the scoreboard receive almost the same amount of rewards (Rank points, Coins, Rewards Track).

Besides providing minimal rewards for minimal participation (having a personal score greater than zero points), there should be additional bonus rewards for active participation.

Players who spent a lot of effort should never receive the same amount of rewards with players who only got 10 personal points and did nothing else for the rest of the game by staying in the respawn area or hiding away in some secluded corner in the map.

Many players AFK for rewards because the current personal scoreboard and rewards system pretty much encourages it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ PERSONAL SCOREBOARD 2.0 ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Currently, personal points are gained as follows:
Personal Points Scored – Player Actions
5 – Kills
10 – Teammate Revivals
15 – Objective Assaulter
10 – Skirmisher
10 – Points Captured
10 – Objective Defender
10 – Objective Neutralized

Proposed Changes:
Objective Defender – 50 points – Killing enemies on own capture point
(score 50 personal points per enemy killed on own capture points)

Objective Assaulter – 80 points – Killing enemies near any capture points
(score 80 personal points per enemy killed near any capture points)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ PERSONAL SCOREBOARD 2.0 ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Continuing from above:
Personal Points Scored – Player Actions
5 – Kills
10 – Teammate Revivals
80 – Objective Assaulter
10 – Skirmisher
10 – Points Captured
50 – Objective Defender
10 – Objective Neutralized

Proposed Additions:
Objective Denier – 10 points / second – Prevent Enemy Capture
(score 5 personal points for every second in combat in neutral capture points.)

Objective Bunker – 10 points / second – Prevent Enemy De-Cap
(score 5 personal points for every second in combat in team held capture points.)

Objective Killer – 100 points – Killing enemies in their capture points
(score 100 personal points per enemy killed in their capture points)

Personal Scoreboard 2.0 should look like this:
Personal Points Scored – Player Actions
5 – Kills
10 – Teammate Revivals
80 – Objective Assaulter
10 – Skirmisher
10 – Points Captured
50 – Objective Defender
10 – Objective Neutralized
10 / 1s – Objective Denier
10 / 1s – Objective Bunker
100 – Objective Killer

~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ REWARDS 2.0 ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Current rewards:

lose – rank points – silvers
custom arena – 200 – 10.00
solo arena – 300 – 12.50
team arena – 500 – 15.00

win – rank points – silvers
custom arena – 500 – 15.00
solo arena – 1000 – 25.00
team arena – 1500 – 30.00

daily limit:
Custom Arena — maximum 5 Gold coin
Solo Arena — maximum 15 Gold coin
Team Arena — maximum 15 Gold coin

and now, my proposal:
first, we remove the maximum daily limit for solo arena and team arena, as well as the official anet hotjoin servers only playable via the “play now” button. the daily limit of 5 gold is still applicable for player owned custom arenas.

let us term the current rewards as “basic” rewards and to qualify for the current basic rewards, a personal score of non-zero is required.

now, let each player’s personal score be the “bonus” reward.

so, upon match end, participating players gets “basic” + “bonus” rewards whereas the “bonus” rewards depends on their personal score.

what are “bonus” rewards?

players get extra rank points and silvers based on how many personal score they have at the end of the match.

the multipliers for bonus rewards:
custom arena (player owned servers)
- extra coin = (personal score x 1.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 1.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 1% of 1/40 reward track)

anet “play now” hotjoin
- extra coin = (personal score x 1.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 1.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 1% of 1/40 reward track)

solo arena
- extra coin = (personal score x 2.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 2.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 2% of 1/40 reward track)

team arena
- extra coin = (personal score x 3.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 3.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 3% of 1/40 reward track)

for example, ending the match with 500 personal points would mean
custom arena (player owned servers)
- extra coin = (500 coppers or 5 silvers)
- extra rank points = (500 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (5/40 reward track)

anet “play now” hotjoin
- extra coin = (500 coppers or 5 silvers)
- extra rank points = (500 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (5/40 reward track)

solo arena
- extra coin = (1000 coppers or 10 silvers)
- extra rank points = (1000 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (10/40 reward track)

team arena
- extra coin = (1500 coppers or 15 silvers)
- extra rank points = (1500 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (15/40 reward track)

this means, teams who did well in team arena will be able to gain extra silvers, rank points and progress their reward tracks very quickly.

additional bonus multipliers for winning.
(i must have lunch first, am starving now)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ HOTJOIN 2.0 ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Currently, the official custom arenas hosted by anet are in a very unplayable state because, very often, the games:
- started off not balanced. often 1 vs 2 with many spectators watching, waiting for a chance to join the “winning” team for “better” rewards
- auto balance abuse. in a 3 vs 4 situation, it would become 2 vs 4 as players on the team with lesser players left the team to spectate in order to force auto balance.
- AFK. some players stopped playing after they have gotten some personal score, they just wait inside the spawn area or somewhere secluded.
- etc

Proposed Changes:
- remove custom arenas hosted by official anet from the PvP Game Browser
- game browser will only be used to find and join player hosted custom arenas
- the “play now” button will function the same like all other “activities” such as crab toss, sanctum sprint, keg brawl, aspect arena, etc so players will be thrown into any server with available slots immediately.
- new servers are created immediately if all existing servers are full.
- existing servers not full will have players chucked in immediately if they clicked the “play now” button to ensure the rooms are always 5 vs 5.
- servers with only 1 player will be relocated into other servers.
- servers will shut down if there are no more players in them.
- no spectator mode in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers.
- no swapping teams in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers.
- no talking to the opponents in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers.
- no whispering to the opponents in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers.
- opponent names hidden in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers.
- you may leave anytime if you are not happy but you will not get any rewards.
- you cannot join your friends in PvP in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers.
- no match making, players are immediately shuffled into existing rooms.

Also, if a hotjoin queue and map vote lobby system is possible, then:

How Hotjoin 2.0 would work
- Deimos clicks “Play Now” button.
- Hotjoin 2.0 searches existing Hotjoin servers for empty slot.
- Shoves Deimos into any available slot, if found.
- If no available slot are found, shoves Deimos into a Hotjoin lobby.
- Shoves any other players who cannot find open slots into the same lobby.
- Players in the Hotjoin lobby can start to vote for the maps.
- Count down to load the map will begin with at least 6 players in the lobby.
- Continues to shove players into the lobby.
- Map loads immediately when 10 players are in the lobby.

What is the Hotjoin 2.0 Lobby?
- A new pop up user interface for Hotjoin players to vote map etc.
- Hotjoin 2.0 Lobby will pop up upon a Hotjoin match has ended.
- Players who stayed back can vote for the next map.
- Players who left, will have their slots replaced by new players.

okay, i am back, and edited the 2nd post about personal score and rewards accordingly.

i realized that i have constructed quite a wall of text here but i still hope someone would take some time to read and provide some feedback.

is there any part not clear?

i will try my best to make it easier to comprehend.

thank you for reading! ( if any >.< )

One problem. Your suggestion will increase the likelihood of there being people who will farm points by trading wins, kills, caps, or whatever. You’re better off finding ways to deter people who do not participate rather than change the entire system which gives an incentive to some players to not even play PvP but farm points together for the reward tracks. Don’t put it past people to also find a way so that everyone wins as I have seen that done already when joining random servers.

Ayrilana.1396:

One problem. Your suggestion will increase the likelihood of there being people who will farm points by trading wins, kills, caps, or whatever. You’re better off finding ways to deter people who do not participate rather than change the entire system which gives an incentive to some players to not even play PvP but farm points together for the reward tracks. Don’t put it past people to also find a way so that everyone wins as I have seen that done already when joining random servers.

i see. i forgot about that.
thanks for the feedback!

well, a short, quick to reach daily cap can be placed on custom arenas (player owned servers) to prevent prolonged farming behaviors.

for official anet “play now” hotjoin (no team swapping, no spectator mode) what if
- opponent player names hidden
- cannot chat with the opponent team
- cannot whisper opponents

would this help?

i fail to see issues in solo arena and team arena though.

Arenas should be fine. The problem won’t be fixed by cutting off communication as they could all be in the same guild and communicate that way or even TS3. The only way to fix that would be for there to be no way to join a particular server at all regardless as to who is on it.

I think there also was already a cap on how far you could progress in a day unless that was just in custom arenas. I thought I saw that was also applied to hot join but I could have read it incorrectly.

Ayrilana.1396:

Arenas should be fine. The problem won’t be fixed by cutting off communication as they could all be in the same guild and communicate that way or even TS3. The only way to fix that would be for there to be no way to join a particular server at all regardless as to who is on it.

I think there also was already a cap on how far you could progress in a day unless that was just in custom arenas. I thought I saw that was also applied to hot join but I could have read it incorrectly.

have you read up what i wrote for “hotjoin 2.0” because the only way to join the new official anet hotjoin servers would be via the “play now” button.

the game browser is only used to join custom arenas, player owned.

we could also disable “join friend in PvP” for new official anet hotjoin servers, so the new official anet hotjoin servers will behave like all other activities (crab toss, keg brawl) no spectators, games quickly filled up, cannot join particular server etc.

update:
i went back and edited the first post, removed a lot of unnecessary text to keep things simple and straight to the point.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Ayrilana.1396:

Arenas should be fine. The problem won’t be fixed by cutting off communication as they could all be in the same guild and communicate that way or even TS3. The only way to fix that would be for there to be no way to join a particular server at all regardless as to who is on it.

I think there also was already a cap on how far you could progress in a day unless that was just in custom arenas. I thought I saw that was also applied to hot join but I could have read it incorrectly.

have you read up what i wrote for “hotjoin 2.0” because the only way to join the new official anet hotjoin servers would be via the “play now” button.

the game browser is only used to join custom arenas, player owned.

we could also disable “join friend in PvP” for new official anet hotjoin servers, so the new official anet hotjoin servers will behave like all other activities (crab toss, keg brawl) no spectators, games quickly filled up, cannot join particular server etc.

update:
i went back and edited the first post, removed a lot of unnecessary text to keep things simple and straight to the point.

You changed a lot after my post. Before you had it so that you could join friends.

Ayrilana.1396:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Ayrilana.1396:

Arenas should be fine. The problem won’t be fixed by cutting off communication as they could all be in the same guild and communicate that way or even TS3. The only way to fix that would be for there to be no way to join a particular server at all regardless as to who is on it.

I think there also was already a cap on how far you could progress in a day unless that was just in custom arenas. I thought I saw that was also applied to hot join but I could have read it incorrectly.

have you read up what i wrote for “hotjoin 2.0” because the only way to join the new official anet hotjoin servers would be via the “play now” button.

the game browser is only used to join custom arenas, player owned.

we could also disable “join friend in PvP” for new official anet hotjoin servers, so the new official anet hotjoin servers will behave like all other activities (crab toss, keg brawl) no spectators, games quickly filled up, cannot join particular server etc.

update:
i went back and edited the first post, removed a lot of unnecessary text to keep things simple and straight to the point.

You changed a lot after my post. Before you had it so that you could join friends.

yeah, i did not think much about that back then.
i have made some amendments, thanks for the feedback you provided!

how does hotjoin 2.0 look like now?

These changes look well thought out. I like it! xD

Lotus.1682:

These changes look well thought out. I like it! xD

thanks!

any feedback on any particular area?

the revised scoreboard?
the rewards?
the new official hotjoin?

for the scoring, i made it so that, bunkers can earn score for holding the point, or denying the other team points.

and i increased the personal points for kills made on capture points or near them, since this is conquest mode after all.

“- you cannot join your friends in PvP in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers. " This would be akin to anet officially not allowing 2 casual friends an option to casually Pvp where they don’t care if they win/lose/draw

What is the point of a game if not to have fun and have interaction with friends? If two friends want to PvP their only option currently is find 3 more people who may, or may not be concerned with whether it is friendly or competitive. Spend money to create a custom a server where you and them may wait on the same side indefinitely for 2 other people to potentially join or not. Hope someone else has a custom arena where the 2 of you can join.

When you make it impossible for 2 people to play together in the most casual setting of Pvp, you have pretty much forgotten what gaming is all about.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

“- you cannot join your friends in PvP in these official anet hosted hotjoin servers. " This would be akin to anet officially not allowing 2 casual friends an option to casually Pvp where they don’t care if they win/lose/draw

What is the point of a game if not to have fun and have interaction with friends? If two friends want to PvP their only option currently is find 3 more people who may, or may not be concerned with whether it is friendly or competitive. Spend money to create a custom a server where you and them may wait on the same side indefinitely for 2 other people to potentially join or not. Hope someone else has a custom arena where the 2 of you can join.

When you make it impossible for 2 people to play together in the most casual setting of Pvp, you have pretty much forgotten what gaming is all about.

i think it will be fine.
look at how all the current activities work out.
- crab toss
- southsun survival
- keg brawl
- snowball mayhem
- dragon ball
- aspect arena
- reaper rumble
- sanctum sprint
- various other festive activities

all of them, have no pvp browser, and friends cannot play together in the same server, unless by chance. all of them are casual game modes.

justin personally told me that they wanted the players to learn to play conquest, by the removal of official 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers.

to a certain degree, that worked, i started playing some team arena games casually with my casual guild members. however, for the rest of those who play in official anet hotjoin servers casually, the situation actually worsened.

players will not be able to learn official conquest 5 vs 5 in a hotjoin server which any player can freely enter spectator mode, force auto balance, and then swap teams as they wish.

i think making official anet hotjoin servers to behave the same like activities will be a very good change.

also, there are plenty of player owned custom arenas around.

3 days bump

seeking for more feedback for improvements.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Current rewards system promotes AFK behavior in hotjoin games and sometimes even in Solo Arena games or even Team Arena games.

your plan is not without downsides.
i remember how everyone approved when rewards were changed from personal to team performance.
watch out for 5 ppl capping single circle if it goes back to individual performance.

gesho.9468:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Current rewards system promotes AFK behavior in hotjoin games and sometimes even in Solo Arena games or even Team Arena games.

your plan is not without downsides.
i remember how everyone approved when rewards were changed from personal to team performance.
watch out for 5 ppl capping single circle if it goes back to individual performance.

well, the purpose of this topic of discussion is to find all possible downsides, propose ideas on how to remove them, so that various abuse can be avoided.

well, i am sure “everyone” certainly did not expect AFK behavior to be so rampant after the drastic change to the rewards system.

as for the “5 ppl capping single circle” issue, what if the personal points for “Points Captured” is 1 instead of 10? and only one player (the first to enter the circle) will receive the personal score? do you think that would that solve the “5 ppl capping single circle” issue?

i have drastically increased the personal score points for kills made near capture points and inside capture points, to encourage fighting on capture points, since more personal score means higher rewards, do you think this would work?

anyway, have you taken a look at what i wrote for the revised scoreboard system?

Personal Scoreboard 2.0 should look like this:
Personal Points Scored – Player Actions
5 – Kills
10 – Teammate Revivals
80 – Objective Assaulter
10 – Skirmisher
10 – Points Captured
50 – Objective Defender
10 – Objective Neutralized
5 / 3s – Objective Denier
5 / 3s – Objective Bunker
100 – Objective Killer

with those new scores i could see what we already have, the mindless zerglings at middle wracking up points from kills, objective defender/denier/bunker.
while the guy standing alone at far point might get the odd bunker/denier every once in a while.
generally he’ll be right at the bottom of the score boards, with the mindless zerglings facerolling at middle getting greater rewards.

honestly i can’t think of a system that won’t award zerglings more than the guy carrying them.

Liewec.2896:

with those new scores i could see what we already have, the mindless zerglings at middle wracking up points from kills, objective defender/denier/bunker.
while the guy standing alone at far point might get the odd bunker/denier every once in a while.
generally he’ll be right at the bottom of the score boards, with the mindless zerglings facerolling at middle getting greater rewards.

honestly i can’t think of a system that won’t award zerglings more than the guy carrying them.

you are describing what hotjoin 2.0 would be like with these new scoring system then?
i see. thanks for the feedback!

hmmm does this mean i need to drastically increase the personal score gained for bunker / denier as well?

what do you think?

how can we edit the current personal scoring system, such that it encourages people to actually play conquest the way it is meant to be played, even in a casual come and go mode as hotjoin?

edit:
all right, mr liew, i have somewhat drastically increased the personal score for both objective bunker and denier to personal score 10 points per second in combat.

how does that sound like now?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

well, i am sure “everyone” certainly did not expect AFK behavior to be so rampant after the drastic change to the rewards system.

5 – Kills
10 – Teammate Revivals
80 – Objective Assaulter
10 – Skirmisher
10 – Points Captured
50 – Objective Defender
10 – Objective Neutralized
5 / 3s – Objective Denier
5 / 3s – Objective Bunker
100 – Objective Killer

actually, when change happend (from ind to team performance reward) ppl right away pointed out afk issue. trade off between these two drawbacks is fundamental, whatever you invest your points in.

ind based defender is big? there will be zerg defending, 5players against single invader.
ind capture is big? there will be 5players capping.

ppl felt game being team based, reward should be team based. this eliminates moral hazard of sacrificing team objective – victory, for personal gain. as for single afk/passive player – either you address this with premade, or take consequences.

inventing bycicle feels always exciting, but often it has all been tried already.

i dont think there is any algorithm solution to generate perfect incentive and exclude all sorts of player digressions.

i would rather put effort in some sort of collective tools to judge the player and impose consequences, from as little as forfeiting reward or kicking from game all the way to some long debuff, ranking effect.

gesho.9468:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

well, i am sure “everyone” certainly did not expect AFK behavior to be so rampant after the drastic change to the rewards system.

5 – Kills
10 – Teammate Revivals
80 – Objective Assaulter
10 – Skirmisher
10 – Points Captured
50 – Objective Defender
10 – Objective Neutralized
5 / 3s – Objective Denier
5 / 3s – Objective Bunker
100 – Objective Killer

actually, when change happend (from ind to team performance reward) ppl right away pointed out afk issue. trade off between these two drawbacks is fundamental, whatever you invest your points in.

ind based defender is big? there will be zerg defending, 5players against single invader.
ind capture is big? there will be 5players capping.

ppl felt game being team based, reward should be team based. this eliminates moral hazard of sacrificing team objective – victory, for personal gain. as for single afk/passive player – either you address this with premade, or take consequences.

inventing bycicle feels always exciting, but often it has all been tried already.

again, the purpose of this topic is to discuss, so that we may come up with a very good personal scoring system, that will actually guide players into playing conquest the way it is meant to be played.

while i appreciate you giving various feedback to address potential flaws the new proposed scoring system may have, it would be also much better if you can suggest what could be done to improve the situation.

nevertheless, i thank you for the feedback!

it is dinner time now and i must feed.

but i will be back!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

while i appreciate you giving various feedback to address potential flaws the new proposed scoring system may have, it would be also much better if you can suggest what could be done to improve the situation.

as I posted before

i would rather put effort in some sort of collective tools to judge the player and impose consequences, from as little as forfeiting reward or kicking from game all the way to some long debuff, ranking effect.

ah okies!
let’s look at “forfeiting reward” first!
maybe forfeiting is too much, what if we drastically reduced it base on the final team score at the end of the match instead?

what if, these “extra bonus” that i proposed above based on the new “personal score 2.0” system are very dependent on the final team score?

custom arena (player owned servers)
- final reward = rewards x final team score / 500
- daily limit

anet hotjoin 2.0
- final reward = rewards x final team score / 500
- no daily limit

solo arena
- final reward = rewards x final team score / 500 × 2
- no daily limit

team arena
- final reward = rewards x final team score / 500 × 3
- no daily limit

so if the final team score is 0 then they get no extra rewards, just the bare minimum.

okay lets see what i wrote earlier:

the multipliers for bonus rewards:

custom arena (player owned servers)
- extra coin = (personal score x 1.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 1.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 1% of 1/40 reward track)

anet “play now” hotjoin
- extra coin = (personal score x 1.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 1.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 1% of 1/40 reward track)

solo arena
- extra coin = (personal score x 2.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 2.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 2% of 1/40 reward track)

team arena
- extra coin = (personal score x 3.00 copper)
- extra rank points = (personal score x 3.00 rank point)
- extra reward track progression = (personal score x 3% of 1/40 reward track)

and now for our example, for example, ending the match with 500 personal points plus a team score of 250 would mean halved rewards as 250 / 500 = 0.5 so all the rewards are divided by 2. but solo arena and team arena still gets additional multipliers though. lets take a look!

custom arena (player owned servers)
- extra coin = (250 coppers or 2.5 silvers)
- extra rank points = (250 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (2.5/40 reward track)

anet “play now” hotjoin 2.0
- extra coin = (250 coppers or 2.5 silvers)
- extra rank points = (250 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (2.5/40 reward track)

solo arena
- extra coin = (1000 coppers or 10 silvers)
- extra rank points = (1000 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (10/40 reward track)

team arena
- extra coin = (2250 coppers or 22.5 silvers)
- extra rank points = (2250 rank points)
- extra reward track progression = (22.5/40 reward track)

errrr does anyone understands what i am trying to say? O_O

hmmm “kicking from game” how would this work?

and “some long debuff, ranking effect.” i think there is currently the dishonorable debuff for solo arena and team arena i think.

well, what i am presenting here, the
- personal scoreboard 2.0
- official anet hotjoin 2.0
- improved personalized rewards 2.0

are more like, carrots and guidance system for casual hotjoin players, an attempt to mold these 3 system in such a way that, the players are ready for actual conquest mode in solo arena and team arena.

because, the current situation of hotjoin will never teach casual players anything, siince the games are not always balanced.

by the way, could you comment on the proposed hotjoin 2.0 as well?

:D

Love the work you put into this. I didn’t have time to read it all, nor have time to post extensive feedback, but I really like it.