Guild Wars 2

Yesterday I had a match:

Our team: 3 Necros, 1 thief, 1 ele (I gave one last chance to that forsaken class)
Other team: 3 Guards, 1 thief, 1 ranger

Everyone was solo queued and everyone was low level.

Why would the game stack the classes on both sides?
Why didn’t it send the highest rated Necro to a team and the highest rated Guard to the other?

Because it doesnt sort by professions. Because anet cant figure out a way to:
a) prevent character swapping at start of match and
b) how to make a proper matchmaking algo in the first place.

Instead anet took an outdated algorithm meant for estimating outcomes of chess matches, and ever since tries to “modify” it in a way to adapt it to a soloqueue-teamqueue-mixed team vs team matchmaking algorithm.

Its basically like… you have a really good algorithm to describe what makes a successful relationship between a man and a woman… and you go and take that same algorithm to describe the relationship between a bull and his herd. Crude, I know… but… its the most fitting description.

In short… the matchmaking algorithm doesnt work, mainly because the way the defining parameter is calculated (mmr) doesnt fit.

If a chessplayer looses a match, its because he wasnt as good as his opponent.

If you loose a match in gw2, it can be because:
- someone dc’ed at a crucial moment
- you got saddled with bad players
- you got saddled with a horrible comp
- someone went afk (rl emergency, on purpose, whatever)
- someone deliberately threw the match
- you arent as good as the other team

Thats five more “reasons” to loose in gw2 than in a chess match. Five more reasons that you cant control, to loose a match. And it ALWAYS counts as if you are a bad player.

The way I see it, those problems arent gonna be solved with the current system. Anet didnt solve them in four years, they are not gonna solve them magically next big patch.

Anet would have to go the route of hero-based system with limits on how many same heroes can be chosen per team. This would solve a lot of balance issues also, since the pvp team would create those heroes themselves. So what if traps are totally OP, if theres no hero for them.

They would have to at least offer the option of disabling teamqueue.

They would have to modify the matchmaking algorithm to account for actual contribution (a win doesnt automatically count as a 1, a loss isnt always a 0).

yesterday i got into a match with noobs who didnt even know you needed to cap home. they thought if you cap mid you win and no other points mattered. they couldnt 3v1 the enemy team and expected me on a thief to carry everything. i tried my hardest but after they lost on mid once they quit. WHY DID I GET MATCHED WITH THESE SCRUBS!!!!

I got matched with 2 guys who didn’t know what treb was on khylo. They asked why no red circle etc can’t dodge it and stuff like that.

Just told em to play the side points and ignore mid, they did semi ok after that I guess but it feelsbad when you’ve got ~3k pvp ranked games and get ppl like that on the team lol

I only logged on today to say I hate this matchmaking.

I preferred being matched with/against people at similar win rates, because THAT way the odds win were somewhat equal. Now I feel like I’m being matched with completely random people. I can get 3 warriors, 4 thieves or even 4 guards on the team and even when team composition is good – apparently I am meant to lose some matches because “matchmaking reasons”, so I am matched with people people who will run and attack the gate or go for solo suicide runs at far point for most of the match….

For now, I just made a pure tank build and annoy people between the points with heavy CCs/slowdowns, while getting daily ranked participation (Yeah, with no chance of progression, I feel like this is the only way to make it fun). I hope more people start doing that too….

Yasi.9065:

I have several accounts I play actively in pvp.

One of those accounts has a nicely high winrate (overall ranked winrate is > 70%), since I bought this account not too long ago.

Another account has lots of ranked matches played, and because of that a winrate < 60%. Its the account I started in beta.

If I queue with the high winrate account in Sapphire Rank… I get what I like to call “two thumbers”. People that have absolutely no clue how to play, period. They dont dodge, they dont rotate. They double cap, they die in <5 sec in evenly matched fights.

The other account gets at least one player each match, thats horribly bad… but the rest is okay… at least they know where their dodge key is.

So… now I inherited another account with a < 40% winrate on ranked matches… at around 500 ranked matches played.
That account blows through the divisions (started amber) and is now at mid ruby with <10 matches lost.

You know what that means, boys and girls?

Correct. The lower your mmr is, the easier your way to diamond in soloqueue.

Nicely done Anet. Nicely done.

For everybody that doesnt need anything in terms of these horribly designed achievements to get the legendary backpiece and doesnt play exclusively as part of a premade…. Id suggest you go save your mmr and only play unranked.

Because you WILL tank your mmr if you have a high mmr, this season.

This is exactly what gw2 pvp matchmaking is all about. Its all about tanking mmr and then riding the winstreak. How fun is this

Yasi.9065:

Because it doesnt sort by professions. Because anet cant figure out a way to:
a) prevent character swapping at start of match and
b) how to make a proper matchmaking algo in the first place.

Instead anet took an outdated algorithm meant for estimating outcomes of chess matches, and ever since tries to “modify” it in a way to adapt it to a soloqueue-teamqueue-mixed team vs team matchmaking algorithm.

Its basically like… you have a really good algorithm to describe what makes a successful relationship between a man and a woman… and you go and take that same algorithm to describe the relationship between a bull and his herd. Crude, I know… but… its the most fitting description.

In short… the matchmaking algorithm doesnt work, mainly because the way the defining parameter is calculated (mmr) doesnt fit.

If a chessplayer looses a match, its because he wasnt as good as his opponent.

If you loose a match in gw2, it can be because:
- someone dc’ed at a crucial moment
- you got saddled with bad players
- you got saddled with a horrible comp
- someone went afk (rl emergency, on purpose, whatever)
- someone deliberately threw the match
- you arent as good as the other team

Thats five more “reasons” to loose in gw2 than in a chess match. Five more reasons that you cant control, to loose a match. And it ALWAYS counts as if you are a bad player.

The way I see it, those problems arent gonna be solved with the current system. Anet didnt solve them in four years, they are not gonna solve them magically next big patch.

Anet would have to go the route of hero-based system with limits on how many same heroes can be chosen per team. This would solve a lot of balance issues also, since the pvp team would create those heroes themselves. So what if traps are totally OP, if theres no hero for them.

They would have to at least offer the option of disabling teamqueue.

They would have to modify the matchmaking algorithm to account for actual contribution (a win doesnt automatically count as a 1, a loss isnt always a 0).

This was a very informative post to me. It’s a shame they are using this kind of algorithm. I guess PvP will never be fixed in this game. I wonder what Anet will choose to say in response to this thread, if anything at all.

I am still having a very frustrating time in SoloQ but I did finally hit sapphire. Think I’m going to just give up there because there is no way I’m going to be able to get through sapphire AND ruby to diamond SoloQ this last season. I can’t grind 12 hours straight everyday nor would I WANT to.

Loathar.9375:

Anet didnt solve them in four years, they are not gonna solve them magically next big patch.

Anet, this is when you say “Challenge accepted”.

Sorry to say this Saiyan, but that wouldnt be really believable.

After all… we were already promised:
“…a better system for ranked play…”
“…better matchmaking…”
“…a place for all skill levels to match up against similarly skilled players…”
Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-pvp-leagues/

Lets see… we’ve got matchmaking like the one before seasons started, with the added hinderment of limiting the playerpool artificially through adding pip ranges.

We’ve got a toxic environment because now losses visibly hurt, with an influx of unwilling pve players only grinding achievements.

And the matching up of players with similar skill-level… lets just say… Anet didnt quite deliver on that one either.

Lets not even mention anything to do with balance, broken builds and class stacking.

The way I see it, anet needs to either drop the pip system, or drop the MMR system. Either or.

Trying to use both for matchmaking is causing all sorts of issues, from longer queue times to divisions not being representitive of skill.

Either 1. Tie Division to MMR percentile, and just use MMR for matchmaking.

2. Remove MMR from matchmaking completely, and matchmake solely based on division/tier/pips.

I honestly do not understand why it is necessary to have two separate systems, and then have them both affect matchmaking. .

I hope the number come in with season 4 having the least amount of games played out of all the seasons.

It’s spectacularly bad to think the competitive scene can benefit from rewards and titles not based on skill.

People getting locked into “MMR hell” needs to be correctly explained as “where you belong”, not addressed such that it screws over actually skilled participants.

I thought season 3 was a pretty excellent balance, with the reduced pip range for pooling players and the MMR spread it allowed.

Id prefer that there just were not any rewards/achievements for ranked and it was purely for the competitive nature of PvP. They can put the next shiny into generic achievements and let players grind for it.

Reikou.7068:

The way I see it, anet needs to either drop the pip system, or drop the MMR system. Either or.

Trying to use both for matchmaking is causing all sorts of issues, from longer queue times to divisions not being representitive of skill.

Either 1. Tie Division to MMR percentile, and just use MMR for matchmaking.

2. Remove MMR from matchmaking completely, and matchmake solely based on division/tier/pips.

I honestly do not understand why it is necessary to have two separate systems, and then have them both affect matchmaking. .

They could make a system that still uses both and still work. All they have to do is base the end match pip rewards on your MMR compared to others in the match and remove pip safety barriers. That way pips reflect MMR, therefore matching based on pips would be more like matching based on MMR, mimicking a single evaluation matching system rather than a dual conflicting system.

Ok so I’m at a state where I win lose win lose.. in an endless loop

It was broken by one of the opponent’s players d/cing on a match I was due to Lose.. and oh my freaking god.. 4v5 and they nearly Crushed us. These dudes we’re literally throwing the match.

I nearly felt bad for the opponents having to work harder due to being short one, and even more for myself to be stuck with such incompetent players it was embarrassing.

Season 3 > Season 2 >>>>>> Season 4 > Season 1

Burn.5401:

Season 3 > Season 2 >>>>>> Season 4 > Season 1

Kind of sucks, that your own performance actually influences the outcome of your matches in season 4, huh?
It kind of confuses me though, that you put season 4 over season1, since you could at least cheat the system for easy matches in season 1.

Erzian.5218:

Burn.5401:

Season 3 > Season 2 >>>>>> Season 4 > Season 1

Kind of sucks, that your own performance actually influences the outcome of your matches in season 4, huh?

No it doesn’t

S4 is the worst really. Some games I win all my 1v1s even 1v2s and the rest of my team are dead with 0 caps gg.

There’s a difference between pulling my weight and having to carry full dead weights which is what seems to be happening a lot in S4.

Erzian.5218:

Burn.5401:

Season 3 > Season 2 >>>>>> Season 4 > Season 1

Kind of sucks, that your own performance actually influences the outcome of your matches in season 4, huh?
It kind of confuses me though, that you put season 4 over season1, since you could at least cheat the system for easy matches in season 1.

Yeah, being paired with 3 Ambers in a match 4v5 against 5 Sapphires/Rubies is a real dispaly of skills, we deserve taht loss and to lose all our pips in these very fair matches….

No seriously, I skip season 1 for reasons, placed Diamond in season 2, Ruby in season 3, and now can’t even win one out of Emerald; I know I’m not the most skilled PvP player here, but come on, the 30 losses i got upon 40 league matches are 90% 4v5 AND (not or) messed rank balance.

And I only need to reach Sapphire for making The Ascension…but seems it’ll be impossible -.-

most of the matches in this season seems to be 4v5 and (not or) unfair rank matching….the sad thing is, we lose pips anyway.

I mean, I skipped season1, placed Diamond in season2 and Ruby in season3…so I can assume I’m not the worst player out there, but now is literally IMPOSSIBLE to get out of Emerald…and i only need to reach Sapphire to complete The Ascension…but looks like it will be impossible as now -.-

phantom.1675:

I hope the number come in with season 4 having the least amount of games played out of all the seasons.

It’s spectacularly bad to think the competitive scene can benefit from rewards and titles not based on skill.

People getting locked into “MMR hell” needs to be correctly explained as “where you belong”, not addressed such that it screws over actually skilled participants.

I thought season 3 was a pretty excellent balance, with the reduced pip range for pooling players and the MMR spread it allowed.

Id prefer that there just were not any rewards/achievements for ranked and it was purely for the competitive nature of PvP. They can put the next shiny into generic achievements and let players grind for it.

First, the current season is trying for even matches. That is a much more accurate measure of skill than previous seasons. In season 2 and 3 matches were created with one side intended to win.

So, your idea that rewards and titles this season are “not based on skill” is precisely backward. The truth is that this season is far more “skill based” than previous seasons.

As to the idea of no rewards for ranked play. That cuts to the heart of the issue. The “shiny” ( Legendary Backpack ) was put out with two opposing goals; To reward high level players and to attract new players to pvp.

If you want to attract players, you need obtainable rewards. If you want exclusivity, the rewards need to be denied to the majority. ANET attempted to do both. That didn’t go well.

The simple reality is that there are not enough “hard core” players to make pvp work, let alone “Esports.”

So, the most effective solution would be to nurture the incoming pve players. To stomp them into the ground and denigrate them is self destructive to pvp.

Ithilwen.1529:

First, the current season is trying for even matches. That is a much more accurate measure of skill than previous seasons. In season 2 and 3 matches were created with one side intended to win.

So, your idea that rewards and titles this season are “not based on skill” is precisely backward. The truth is that this season is far more “skill based” than previous seasons.

As to the idea of no rewards for ranked play. That cuts to the heart of the issue. The “shiny” ( Legendary Backpack ) was put out with two opposing goals; To reward high level players and to attract new players to pvp.

If you want to attract players, you need obtainable rewards. If you want exclusivity, the rewards need to be denied to the majority. ANET attempted to do both. That didn’t go well.

The simple reality is that there are not enough “hard core” players to make pvp work, let alone “Esports.”

So, the most effective solution would be to nurture the incoming pve players. To stomp them into the ground and denigrate them is self destructive to pvp.

No. What you don’t understand is that this season has layers where players play. This season 1 carbage matchmaking system has 0 indication of player personal skill on division ranking. The badge after your name has no value in this matchmaking system and let me explain why.

Season 1 uses the 50/50 w/l system where it tries to balance games so that the teams are equal. Okay that’s fine on it’s own but players aren’t in the same league division queue. Lower ranked division players might never cross high ranked division players which causes completely terrible players to reach legend.

Let’s put this so that it can be understood better.

Let’s say that we have a players with hidden mmr of 1 while 100 being the best player/players in the world.

1 player with mmr of 20 starts playing the league and the same player with other
account starts playing the league with 60 mmr.

What is gonna happen?

The account with 60 mmr has considerably harder matches than the account with mmr 20 because the team balance has been made with that mmr 20 instead of the real mmr of 60. (This point on it’s own shows how this division system measures actual player skill with 0 real indication when we take new players and players who haven’t really played pvp before compared with the system no putting players in the same division queue.) This causes this player to reach legend way earlier with that bad account. So basically this season 1 system favors bad/casuals more than good players and the quality of matches is very very poor in the end for the whole community as a whole.

The worst of all with this system is that when eventually the account with mmr 60 reaches legend the mmr 20 account has mmr close enought to that other account and they play in the same que. This system alone causes players to be bad and think that they are good and it leads to toxicity because the system indicates that you are good but it has no value in reality. There is a significant difference between mmr 20 and mmr 60.

The system will think that these players are equal on skill because it is programmed to do so but it fails because of the que being separated to multiple layers causing the system to have 0 indication of the real personal player skill.

Completely agree. I reached Legend the first 3 seasons and I had a total blast playing and improving through the process. Now, I just don’t find the patience to even get to Diamond, every single match is one team facerolling the other one. Period. I’ve been winning-losing the whole time since this season started and I’m now still in T1 Sapphire.
Worst thing? Getting people with absolute 0 clue of how to play PvP sometimes in my team (I guess that when my team facerolls the others is because they have these newbie players with them). I’m talking about people just running around in the map with no clear direction, not paying attention to the map, to the signals heck! they don’t even pay attention to the team chat!

All in all, I can say this is the worst PvP season by far, which is sad because it’s their 4th one and they are still experimenting with matchmaking. I probably won’t play many more matches this season, I hope if people that think like me do the same we can send a clear message to Anet.

I’ve made legendary previous seasons solo/dou que.This season I can’s get out of saphire with 50% win rate and about 80 games played. Its not saphire games I play its diamond/legendary previous seasons. And I have to w8 for these games twice as long as average que time.Have no idea what did you do with matchmaking. I am mad atm so kitten you Anet.

cyclop.5934:

I’ve made legendary previous seasons solo/dou que.This season I can’s get out of saphire with 50% win rate and about 80 games played. Its not saphire games I play its diamond/legendary previous seasons. And I have to w8 for these games twice as long as average que time.Have no idea what did you do with matchmaking. I am mad atm so kitten you Anet.

The rage is real.

Why do people continue to say “Season is worse than prev please fix” when there’s obviously less hate QQ threads in this season compared to previous?

“Where you belong?” Are you insane?

The only difference between a Amber player and a ‘legendary’ player is simple.
the legendary player’s are using the builds that arena net designed around new player’s, while the amber players (yes new players,) havn’t figured it out yet.

no matter how good your MMR system is you will never measure skill when your professions are on auto pilot.

Your statement is almost as fictional as saying “The original LB was a fine tuned piece of MMR”.
(you seem to forget all the 10-0 players the littered the top 100.) Or saying “Points are the be all in a pvp match”. If this was truly the case i wouldn’t be spending all off season killing those zergers you call legendary players.

Saiyan.1704:

cyclop.5934:

I’ve made legendary previous seasons solo/dou que.This season I can’s get out of saphire with 50% win rate and about 80 games played. Its not saphire games I play its diamond/legendary previous seasons. And I have to w8 for these games twice as long as average que time.Have no idea what did you do with matchmaking. I am mad atm so kitten you Anet.

The rage is real.

Why do people continue to say “Season is worse than prev please fix” when there’s obviously less hate QQ threads in this season compared to previous?

Because the majority of the people who cared, who voiced, already quit? What’s the point of posting more threads when you already moved on? Obviously, the number of those threads declines. I only troll around now anyway.

Saiyan.1704:

cyclop.5934:

I’ve made legendary previous seasons solo/dou que.This season I can’s get out of saphire with 50% win rate and about 80 games played. Its not saphire games I play its diamond/legendary previous seasons. And I have to w8 for these games twice as long as average que time.Have no idea what did you do with matchmaking. I am mad atm so kitten you Anet.

The rage is real.

Why do people continue to say “Season is worse than prev please fix” when there’s obviously less hate QQ threads in this season compared to previous?

1) People are quitting.
2) The ones who are staying and have functioning brain cells already realized Anet doesn’t read the forum so why bother. It’s a place for venting some of the frustration, but nobody should expect Anet to listen at this point.

S4 is better than S3 by a mile. Not better than S2 and probably as good or better than S1.

What ANet still hasn’t figured out yet is how to deal with the fact that they use the pips as some measure of your peers. But getting carried or swapping specs means anyone on your team may be crap at any time regardless of pips. And on top of that, when you finally get near ruby in sapphire, you have a ton of people who struggled tier to tier to get to ruby and now form a thick chum at the bottom of the rank that gets paired up with good players trying to rise through the rest of sapphire.

I had a something close to a 3:1 win ratio entering T4 in sapphire. I’ve now lost 5 straight and can’t advance any more. Why? Did I change? Did the competition get harder? No. My teammates have been much worse than those I was rising with previously AND I’m suddenly seeing more rubies than sapphires in my matches.

There’s a progressive hump of crappy players that advances every season on the backs of the “you can’t fall down the ladder” tier system. And that ridge freezes when it hits ruby and makes anyone else that needs some teammates have to trudge through some god-awful playing praying for a few wins to be able to finally rise above it. The only answer is to beat them all to that hump, but I can’t play 24 hrs straight from the start of the season until I make it to ruby/legendary. So, I’ve been washed over by the masses of unskilled ratcheting players that hump from one fallback to the next.

The answer is a REAL ladder system. You move up based on the quality of the opponent you faced and won. You move down some proportion if you lose. Or give up on “rankings” and just give everyone credit for their own participation. But this halfway house of ranks and pseudo-ladders and tiers and sometimes you fall down and +1 for streaks….it’s garbage and frustrating and makes the matchmaking seem even worse than it is.

Yasi.9065:

Erzian.5218:

Burn.5401:

Season 3 > Season 2 >>>>>> Season 4 > Season 1

Kind of sucks, that your own performance actually influences the outcome of your matches in season 4, huh?
It kind of confuses me though, that you put season 4 over season1, since you could at least cheat the system for easy matches in season 1.

Kind of says a lot that my account with worst winrate (<40% ranked) actually reached legendary already – fastest yet for me.

While my account with >70% winrate hasnt even made it out of sapphire yet.

I mean… I didnt quite realize that my performance is accountbound. /sarcasm

You can be sarcastic all you want, but your post simply shows that you do not understand the concepts of match making and mmr/elo.
It is especially silly, when you tell others that they are bad but then you tell us that you cannot get out of sapphire on your high win rate account. Perhaps it is related to inflated mmr from seasons 2+3.

My favorite part about this matchmaking: you beat 3-4 man premade with something like 500-150, then next match you end up with that same premade on your team which obviously results in loss.

I don’t care what Mythbusters say, you cannot polish a kitten . You tested it in season 1, it failed, why do you think it works now? Meh

Currently doing my loose streak to tank mmr again. “But this behavior is not tolerated!”, right? Welp, your matchmaking system is really helping me out here, because I don’t even have to try, it tanks my mmr for me after I’ve received too many victories.

Birman.1705:

I don’t care what Mythbusters say, you cannot polish a kitten . You tested it in season 1, it failed, why do you think it works now? Meh

Currently doing my loose streak to tank mmr again. “But this behavior is not tolerated!”, right? Welp, your matchmaking system is really helping me out here, because I don’t even have to try, it tanks my mmr for me after I’ve received too many victories.

Mine is tanking naturally, but despite it being low, I just get worse players while my opponents get better. Same thing that happened in S3.

emerald.. you could prob afk every match and still make it out of emerald eventually, the biggest problem is this god awful matchmaking in divisions where you can lose tiers. Just had 2 3 rubys and an emerald against 3 rubys a sapphire and a diamond. im curently ruby working my way back to legend but unless anet makes a build that can carry 4 people that may as well be afk, im not sure what to do. 3 revs 2 guards against thier higher teir guild premade anet hates solo q they need to let go of that

My last match in ruby→diamond and my first match in diamond both have a ranger with signet of hunt on my team.

I don’t know, it just feels bad when your team can’t even get a real build going. I get it if you don’t have HoT or wanna try something different but these people run utilities that are LEGIT BAD (eg. shredding gyro, signet of hunt, signet of shadows) and I have to carry them? geeeeez

I have over 50% win rate and just hit diamond so it’s not like I can’t progress but man it’s frustrating playing with legit deadweights who don’t even belong in sapphire atm let alone diamond/ruby.

The matchmaking definitely feels pretty rough this season.

Win streaks happen to me too, it’s not like I’m stuck I just think the MM is trash and games aren’t fun when I have insanely bad players on my or the other team.

I pretty much exclusively solo q too so this win streak was just good RNG rather than anything tbh. I had way more losses in Sapphire T2 than all of Ruby, it’s not like I suddenly became godlike I just got lucky with the streak :/

Velimere.7685:

The matchmaking definitely feels pretty rough this season.

you forgot to edit out the guadian symbols.

sophiewhite.3149:

Velimere.7685:

The matchmaking definitely feels pretty rough this season.

you forgot to edit out the guadian symbols.

What do you mean?

The Ace.9105:

Ithilwen.1529:

First, the current season is trying for even matches. That is a much more accurate measure of skill than previous seasons. In season 2 and 3 matches were created with one side intended to win.

So, your idea that rewards and titles this season are “not based on skill” is precisely backward. The truth is that this season is far more “skill based” than previous seasons.

As to the idea of no rewards for ranked play. That cuts to the heart of the issue. The “shiny” ( Legendary Backpack ) was put out with two opposing goals; To reward high level players and to attract new players to pvp.

If you want to attract players, you need obtainable rewards. If you want exclusivity, the rewards need to be denied to the majority. ANET attempted to do both. That didn’t go well.

The simple reality is that there are not enough “hard core” players to make pvp work, let alone “Esports.”

So, the most effective solution would be to nurture the incoming pve players. To stomp them into the ground and denigrate them is self destructive to pvp.

No. What you don’t understand is that this season has layers where players play. This season 1 carbage matchmaking system has 0 indication of player personal skill on division ranking. The badge after your name has no value in this matchmaking system and let me explain why.

Season 1 uses the 50/50 w/l system where it tries to balance games so that the teams are equal. Okay that’s fine on it’s own but players aren’t in the same league division queue. Lower ranked division players might never cross high ranked division players which causes completely terrible players to reach legend.

Let’s put this so that it can be understood better.

Let’s say that we have a players with hidden mmr of 1 while 100 being the best player/players in the world.

1 player with mmr of 20 starts playing the league and the same player with other
account starts playing the league with 60 mmr.

What is gonna happen?

The account with 60 mmr has considerably harder matches than the account with mmr 20 because the team balance has been made with that mmr 20 instead of the real mmr of 60. (This point on it’s own shows how this division system measures actual player skill with 0 real indication when we take new players and players who haven’t really played pvp before compared with the system no putting players in the same division queue.) This causes this player to reach legend way earlier with that bad account. So basically this season 1 system favors bad/casuals more than good players and the quality of matches is very very poor in the end for the whole community as a whole.

The worst of all with this system is that when eventually the account with mmr 60 reaches legend the mmr 20 account has mmr close enought to that other account and they play in the same que. This system alone causes players to be bad and think that they are good and it leads to toxicity because the system indicates that you are good but it has no value in reality. There is a significant difference between mmr 20 and mmr 60.

The system will think that these players are equal on skill because it is programmed to do so but it fails because of the que being separated to multiple layers causing the system to have 0 indication of the real personal player skill.

ace gets it.

theres a reason why even players like helseth and texbi are stuck in diamond right now. the pro players are put with the responsibility of literally winning the entire match for their team in order to win the game.

ive seen soo many HORRIBLE players reach late diamond / legend.

this ranger guy who had no clue what he was doing.. camping a close point for no reason.. i come to fight him and his rotation is completely messed up. just popping random utilites for no reason… standing still as im hitting him hard and not knowing anything about map rotations and or druid rotations.

ive seen these quite often.

and ive been able to feel the matchmaker change its ways with me, too.

at the start i had a low winrate for various reasons. as i started to get more back into spvp and map rotations again ( since i had been playing wvw the entire off season basically i was slightly out of practice ) i was able to start slowly winning again. i won matches that were really close ( like 500 – 470 etc. ) by making the right decisions and winning all my 1v1’s and 2v2’s without fail. as this kept happening for a while, it suddenly became much harder to win.. i was sitting on about 70 % winrate or close, and it felt as htough the system wanted me to go back down to a 50 % winrate.

the players werent even that much better so it cant have been that.

i think the thing is just when you have high mmr or high winrate the system gives you so much responisbility because of one simple mistake that the system doesnt take into account:

1 bad player is much worse for a team, than 1 good player is good for the team.

there is no counter argument for this in any 5v5 game mode anywhere.

everyone knows.. that if teams are more or less equally balanced, 1 bad player can ruin a teams chances entirely. where as 1 good player can only do so much on his own.

bigo.9037:

The Ace.9105:

Ithilwen.1529:

First, the current season is trying for even matches. That is a much more accurate measure of skill than previous seasons. In season 2 and 3 matches were created with one side intended to win.

So, your idea that rewards and titles this season are “not based on skill” is precisely backward. The truth is that this season is far more “skill based” than previous seasons.

As to the idea of no rewards for ranked play. That cuts to the heart of the issue. The “shiny” ( Legendary Backpack ) was put out with two opposing goals; To reward high level players and to attract new players to pvp.

If you want to attract players, you need obtainable rewards. If you want exclusivity, the rewards need to be denied to the majority. ANET attempted to do both. That didn’t go well.

The simple reality is that there are not enough “hard core” players to make pvp work, let alone “Esports.”

So, the most effective solution would be to nurture the incoming pve players. To stomp them into the ground and denigrate them is self destructive to pvp.

No. What you don’t understand is that this season has layers where players play. This season 1 carbage matchmaking system has 0 indication of player personal skill on division ranking. The badge after your name has no value in this matchmaking system and let me explain why.

Season 1 uses the 50/50 w/l system where it tries to balance games so that the teams are equal. Okay that’s fine on it’s own but players aren’t in the same league division queue. Lower ranked division players might never cross high ranked division players which causes completely terrible players to reach legend.

Let’s put this so that it can be understood better.

Let’s say that we have a players with hidden mmr of 1 while 100 being the best player/players in the world.

1 player with mmr of 20 starts playing the league and the same player with other
account starts playing the league with 60 mmr.

What is gonna happen?

The account with 60 mmr has considerably harder matches than the account with mmr 20 because the team balance has been made with that mmr 20 instead of the real mmr of 60. (This point on it’s own shows how this division system measures actual player skill with 0 real indication when we take new players and players who haven’t really played pvp before compared with the system no putting players in the same division queue.) This causes this player to reach legend way earlier with that bad account. So basically this season 1 system favors bad/casuals more than good players and the quality of matches is very very poor in the end for the whole community as a whole.

The worst of all with this system is that when eventually the account with mmr 60 reaches legend the mmr 20 account has mmr close enought to that other account and they play in the same que. This system alone causes players to be bad and think that they are good and it leads to toxicity because the system indicates that you are good but it has no value in reality. There is a significant difference between mmr 20 and mmr 60.

The system will think that these players are equal on skill because it is programmed to do so but it fails because of the que being separated to multiple layers causing the system to have 0 indication of the real personal player skill.

ace gets it.

theres a reason why even players like helseth and texbi are stuck in diamond right now. the pro players are put with the responsibility of literally winning the entire match for their team in order to win the game.

ive seen soo many HORRIBLE players reach late diamond / legend.

this ranger guy who had no clue what he was doing.. camping a close point for no reason.. i come to fight him and his rotation is completely messed up. just popping random utilites for no reason… standing still as im hitting him hard and not knowing anything about map rotations and or druid rotations.

ive seen these quite often.

and ive been able to feel the matchmaker change its ways with me, too.

at the start i had a low winrate for various reasons. as i started to get more back into spvp and map rotations again ( since i had been playing wvw the entire off season basically i was slightly out of practice ) i was able to start slowly winning again. i won matches that were really close ( like 500 – 470 etc. ) by making the right decisions and winning all my 1v1’s and 2v2’s without fail. as this kept happening for a while, it suddenly became much harder to win.. i was sitting on about 70 % winrate or close, and it felt as htough the system wanted me to go back down to a 50 % winrate.

the players werent even that much better so it cant have been that.

i think the thing is just when you have high mmr or high winrate the system gives you so much responisbility because of one simple mistake that the system doesnt take into account:

1 bad player is much worse for a team, than 1 good player is good for the team.

there is no counter argument for this in any 5v5 game mode anywhere.

everyone knows.. that if teams are more or less equally balanced, 1 bad player can ruin a teams chances entirely. where as 1 good player can only do so much on his own.

This is why season 1,4 are the worst.

Whatever Anet does, some ppl will get kittened off, no matter what. I personally like this matchmaking much better than s2. I skipped s3 entirely as a result of disappointment in s2 matchmaking, and only came back for s4 when they annonuced that the matchmaker will try to create balanced games this time around instead of predetermined losing team vs predetermined winning team … In fact I think it is a quite high level of hypocrisy that people are crying about not being able to progress, because they are not being “fed” by a whole team of players from the low end vs their team of the high end (of the matchmaking scale)… These same people who threw around the “git gud” and “you cant progress because you are already where you should be” all the time in this forum…
Interestingly with the MM aiming for a balance with 50/50 fair matchmaking, now they can’t just destroy the other team and believe that they are superman… Preposterous…

Yes, I have had many many games where I felt like my team wasn’t doing anything, yes, it happens, (and I’m not very good at pvp and it still happens that I have to carry a team) but enough games played you will be able to progress, since I skipped s3 I had to start from amber, and I made ruby in about 100 games (I know it still sucks, but ppl are crying about emerald ffs), we’ll see how many it takes for more

I think its worth stating it again, the only thing that’d prevent people from raging about MMR is complete randomisation within similar pip range. No one will have extra responsibility to carry the match and everyone gets good or bad players regardless of skills. Let the system plays out and eventually player ranking will settle.

Enforcing 50/50 on everyone just to cater those below it is just another extreme compare to deliberate manipulations like 80/20 in S2 and 60/40 in S3. But who am I kidding, throughout all these 4 years its clear that ANet has no clear PvP set of minds.

The Ace.9105:

Ithilwen.1529:

First, the current season is trying for even matches. That is a much more accurate measure of skill than previous seasons. In season 2 and 3 matches were created with one side intended to win.

So, your idea that rewards and titles this season are “not based on skill” is precisely backward. The truth is that this season is far more “skill based” than previous seasons.

As to the idea of no rewards for ranked play. That cuts to the heart of the issue. The “shiny” ( Legendary Backpack ) was put out with two opposing goals; To reward high level players and to attract new players to pvp.

If you want to attract players, you need obtainable rewards. If you want exclusivity, the rewards need to be denied to the majority. ANET attempted to do both. That didn’t go well.

The simple reality is that there are not enough “hard core” players to make pvp work, let alone “Esports.”

So, the most effective solution would be to nurture the incoming pve players. To stomp them into the ground and denigrate them is self destructive to pvp.

No. What you don’t understand is that this season has layers where players play. This season 1 carbage matchmaking system has 0 indication of player personal skill on division ranking. The badge after your name has no value in this matchmaking system and let me explain why.

Season 1 uses the 50/50 w/l system where it tries to balance games so that the teams are equal. Okay that’s fine on it’s own but players aren’t in the same league division queue. Lower ranked division players might never cross high ranked division players which causes completely terrible players to reach legend.

Let’s put this so that it can be understood better.

Let’s say that we have a players with hidden mmr of 1 while 100 being the best player/players in the world.

1 player with mmr of 20 starts playing the league and the same player with other
account starts playing the league with 60 mmr.

What is gonna happen?

The account with 60 mmr has considerably harder matches than the account with mmr 20 because the team balance has been made with that mmr 20 instead of the real mmr of 60. (This point on it’s own shows how this division system measures actual player skill with 0 real indication when we take new players and players who haven’t really played pvp before compared with the system no putting players in the same division queue.) This causes this player to reach legend way earlier with that bad account. So basically this season 1 system favors bad/casuals more than good players and the quality of matches is very very poor in the end for the whole community as a whole.

The worst of all with this system is that when eventually the account with mmr 60 reaches legend the mmr 20 account has mmr close enought to that other account and they play in the same que. This system alone causes players to be bad and think that they are good and it leads to toxicity because the system indicates that you are good but it has no value in reality. There is a significant difference between mmr 20 and mmr 60.

The system will think that these players are equal on skill because it is programmed to do so but it fails because of the que being separated to multiple layers causing the system to have 0 indication of the real personal player skill.

Wait a sec which Season had any indicator on player skill? I haven’t seen a single one maybe Season 1 with the exception of a few teams slipping thru the cracks. But to say Season’s 2 and 3 had any thing to do with player skill is truly laughable at best. I mean when you force players into losing or winning matches, which is what Seasons 2 and 3 was all about. Then all sense of the meaning of competitive sPvP goes out of the window.

I mean what’s competitive to either the team of randoms that had 2 or 3 complete sPvP novices in Ranked, going up against a 5 man pre made of experienced players?
Yes in the end the team that was chosen to win and get advanced through a system versus their own skill meaning fighting against like skilled teams is not a competition at all but a slaughter fest.

The best way I can put it is one or two player in the WoP Championships just keeps getting fed Ace of Spades high Royal Flushes hand after hand after hand then when the two faces off only one player gets the back to back hands of Ace of Spades high Royal Flushes. That was the same way how Season’s 2 and 3 was ran in GW2 and unless the meaning of a competition has changed to just showing up and hope to get lucky and be granted a no skill challenged victory, then I’m sorry Season’s 2 and 3 also displayed not a single players level of skill.

When it all comes down to it the numbers will speak for themselves. I am sure its partly due to people already having their legendary back pieces and just not playing this season but the ranked PvP population is definitely smaller this season. Queue times are already at the 5+ minute mark and I find I end up playing the same 8 people after the match is found anyway.

The matchmaking makes a few good matches here and there but the majority are blow outs and the worst part is the current pip system gives you no sense of progress compared to the original system in season 1 where you were at least rewarded for trying if your team was heavily outmatched.

I wish I could say I have high hopes for the second tournament but being as this first one is ending with the worst system of all four I have little hope for that.

Erzian.5218:

Yasi.9065:

Erzian.5218:

Burn.5401:

Season 3 > Season 2 >>>>>> Season 4 > Season 1

Kind of sucks, that your own performance actually influences the outcome of your matches in season 4, huh?
It kind of confuses me though, that you put season 4 over season1, since you could at least cheat the system for easy matches in season 1.

Kind of says a lot that my account with worst winrate (<40% ranked) actually reached legendary already – fastest yet for me.

While my account with >70% winrate hasnt even made it out of sapphire yet.

I mean… I didnt quite realize that my performance is accountbound. /sarcasm

You can be sarcastic all you want, but your post simply shows that you do not understand the concepts of match making and mmr/elo.
It is especially silly, when you tell others that they are bad but then you tell us that you cannot get out of sapphire on your high win rate account. Perhaps it is related to inflated mmr from seasons 2+3.

Id like to see YOU winning matches with teammates that die > 20 times. Thats NO exaggeration… last match I had a necro dieing 17 times…. match before that it was a DH dieing 21 times. A dh… the profession with most blocks atm.
And thats only the ones with most deaths. The rest dies usually around 10 times at least.

And you really think, just having a high mmr makes it okay to match me with the absolute worst players? That its okay, that I have to CARRY them to wins? So THEY can get to legendary on MY back? Thats supposed to be FUN for me? Thats supposed to keep me playing gw2 pvp? Reality check for you… it doesnt.

Btw, you clearly misunderstood my post. Of course Im getting out of sapphire. But not in the same amount of matches, as my low-winrate account

THATS whats broken.

I have to work a LOT harder because Im good. Not even just despite Im good? No, BECAUSE of it. So little rallybots that die 20+ times each match can get to legendary too. Casual players that dont even know what “rotations” is… or when respawn is coming… THOSE I have to carry all the way to legendary.

You think thats okay? Thats fair? Thats how it should be?

Yasi.9065:

Id like to see YOU winning matches with teammates that die > 20 times. Thats NO exaggeration… last match I had a necro dieing 17 times…. match before that it was a DH dieing 21 times. A dh… the profession with most blocks atm.
And thats only the ones with most deaths. The rest dies usually around 10 times at least.

Sounds to me like you are spending too much time counting your teammates deaths rather than focusing on your own gameplay.

Reaper Alim, you are correct, no season had anything to do with skill. All were grindy, all could be cheated somehow, to advance easier/faster.

Thats what happens, when you limit playerpool artifically by using piprange AND glicko2 in matchmaking. When you add pip-gain mechanics that make people overshoot. When you add failsafe pips to keep people from dropping down. When you use mixed queues, facing soloplayers against premades. When you dont have a decay system in place.

However, the match QUALITY was a lot different in season3. I had the most good, close, competitve matches in season3, with only premades annoying me to no end there.

Light Of The Abyss.5927:

Yasi.9065:

Id like to see YOU winning matches with teammates that die > 20 times. Thats NO exaggeration… last match I had a necro dieing 17 times…. match before that it was a DH dieing 21 times. A dh… the profession with most blocks atm.
And thats only the ones with most deaths. The rest dies usually around 10 times at least.

Sounds to me like you are spending too much time counting your teammates deaths rather than focusing on your own gameplay.

You know, like the good little pvper I am… Im recording my matches and analzying them afterwards to improve my gameplay even more. But I guess thats something only maybe 1% does.

Matchmaking for these pvp seasons are the biggest shell game ever. They know whatever matchmaking they come up with is going to anger some portion of the player base so they just change it ever season whether it makes sense to do so or not. I mean for pete’s sake they basically did a complete 180 back to the matchmaking they used season 1 for season 4. Sorry guys all that stuff we did for the last 6 months matchmaking wise it was crap what really was the best was season 1 matchmaking. The logic they had for seasons 2 and 3 was perfectly fine but it kittened off all the bad people because they were forced to play with other bad people on there teams. Now we are back to them getting carried in half there games by much better players and kittening off the better players. A-net has to make a final decision about whether leagues are to be a reflection of skill or something to grind. If its something to grind im outta here. Just be clear about it and let us know what leagues are supposed to be about exactly. They have failed dismally so far.

What makes this season bad is the incentive to lose. I had a match with ruby/ sapphire players on temple. I went home, and before I had home capped, all 4 were downed. There is no way anyone is that bad. Either they are intentionally playing bad, or they got carried based on the fact that they had to win matches based on the mm.