Guild Wars 2

Fantastic news! I really hope runes get looked into soon aswell.
Here are my 2 cents for more sigil types:

First off i’ll clarify that no effect from sigils should be “when getting hit” because that type of interaction should be used in runes instead.

When using skill 5 (kind of the “elite” of any weapon set) do a relatively powerful effect. (kind of like the current swap sigils) 15-30s cooldown depending on effect.

An example: Sigil of Hydromancy.. we all know what that does. (15s cooldown).

When using skill 2 (The skill that usually is used to apply continuous pressure) do a minor effect. (simillar to current crit proc sigils)

An example: Sigil of Lava: When using your skill 2, create a fire explosion around yourself (240 radius) that does minor damage and applys burn (1 stack, 3 seconds) to affected foes. (5 icd)

I would say on interrupt sigils but thief is already too powerful with PI in the interrupt department and things like draining sigil in sPvP will make me scream so nty. They are an option but should have a cooldown of about 10-15s to not be must-pick for thief but still good.

On projectile finisher effects. Projectiles that finish to a field get something extra (minor effect).

An example: Sigil of Penetrating Arrows: When you execute a Projectile finisher, your next 3 projectiles that executed a projectile finisher will be unblockable. (10s cd).

On blasting a field (minor effect).

An example: Sigil of Unholy Rituals: Blasting a field will give nearby allies life steal on their next attack (10 icd). (The lifesteal count is about as much as a sigil of blood).

I actually think that the on-kill effect sigils are not bad, some of them need reworking though. Bloodlust is very powerful and PERMANENT (which is important) type of effect as long as you’re alive. Very snowball type of effect.

An example: Sigil of Celerity: PREVIOUSLY: when you kill a foe you gain a stack (5 stacks for players). When reaching 25 stacks you get 5 seconds of quickness. CHANGE TO: When you kill a foe you gain a stack (5 stacks for players). For each stack you attack 1% faster.

On using skill 4 of your weapon. Skill 4 is usually a lot more utility / defensive, so this type of sigil should provide more defensive bonuses such as:

Sigil of Leeching: Yeah you know what it is.. (15s cd).

Sigil of Energy: (Possibly buff to 50 endurance because it requires to blow a cd and more cd on itself). (15s cd)

Sigil of Purification: Purify two of your conditions into boons. (15 icd).

That’s all i can think about for now.
Curious what you got for us Anet.

Random chance has no place in an action combat, so I’m glad you are considering reducing RNG.

If it was in my hands we’d scrap Precision altogether, replacing it with some other stat like attack speed (quickness would be changed to stack and give a bit of this attribute per stack) or armor penetration (working differently than Vulnerability by ignoring armor rather than increasing damage), and get rid of most if not all % chance on crit effects altogether and make them all situational and based on traits, with cooldowns. Like:

• Fire : Now deals 3s of burning instead direct damage. Triggers whenever target has 2 or more nearby allies. (5s cooldown)
• Air: Now deals blindness and weakness in an area instead damage. Triggers whenever target hit is attacking you. (3s)
• Earth: Triggers whenever an enemy hit has less than 90% HP. (2s)
• Water: Triggers if target is near an ally with less than 90% HP. (5s)
• Ice : Triggers on enemies hit from the back, backtracking, or moving away from you (10s)
• Blood: Triggers whenever you are under 90% HP. (5s)
• Blight: Triggers if it hits an enemy using a healing skill. (5s)
• Generosity: Now transfers one condition for every 4 conditions on you. Triggers if you have 4 or more conditions. (10s)
• Nullification: Now removes one boon for every 3 boons the target has. Triggers if target has 3 or more boons. target. (10s)
• Purity: Now removes a condition for every 3 conditions on you. Triggers whenever you have 3 or more conditions. (10s)
• Incapacitation: Triggers if enemy is moving faster than normal (swiftness, superspeed, mid-leap, etc) (5s)
• Strength : Triggers on every 3rd attack. (1s)
• Rage : Triggers on every 3rd attack. (20s)
• Frailty: Triggers on every 3rd attack . (2s)

On kill sigils are useless on large scale and attrition battles. I’d change them to trigger also after hitting the same enemy consecutively a number of times, or after dealing a certain amount of damage to a target.

The property stacking sigils do not work well with how combat really is. But rather than removing them altogether, I’d change them to punish less not being a coward, and count separately defeat, downed, and being in combat.

• +1 charge for every 2 minutes you are in combat. So they are no longer useless against large health bosses and attrition battles.
• +1 charge whenever you help down an enemy.
• +5 charge whenever you help defeat an enemy.
• -5 charges when you are downed (the end of Vapor Form would not count as a second down for this).
• -10 charges when you are defeated. (This means you keep 10 charges if you are downed then defeated with 25 rather than none)

Continues—>

Most on-swap sigils are fine, except those dealing damage. Others are mostly the way they are.
For those that deal or increase damage, either limit them to one per set, or remove the direct damage from them by turning them into something else, like this:

• Doom : Your next attack that deals a damage condition deals an extra stack.
• Hydromancy: Lose a snaring condition and inflict chilled. The condition lost would be in order of preference: immobilize, chilled or crippled. But just one of them.
• Geomancy: Inflict weakness to nearby foes.

Here are some more that we could try and see how they work. All with the standard 9s cooldown:

• Surprise: The next attack dazes target for 0.75s
• Grace: Gain distortion for 0.75s.
• Composure: Break stun and gain 1 stacks of stability for 0.75s.
• Haste: Reduce the recharge of your weapon skills by 3 seconds and gain 2 initiative.
• Restitution: Your next 3 attacks transfer a condition.
• Ruin: The next condition you inflict lasts 50% longer. (does not bypass the total cap of 100%)
• Pyromancy: Create a blast finisher. (the visual is a small explosion like those from an engineer’s small, but there’s no damage)
• Aeromancy: Blind up to 4 nearby foes.
• True Sight: Your next attack can’t miss. (the next attack ignores blocks, evades and blindness, but you won’t lose blindness if you have it, so it’ll still affect you the next attack)

Self-recharging Sigils

I’d also like to see you try a new type of recharge that may work with sigils and traits.

The effect will always trigger on the next attack after a long cooldown, but whenever an enemy is hit, the cooldown goes down by 1, but this reduction can only happen once every second, so skills spamming hits do not speed up things.

This type of recharge rewards being in active combat by reducing the recharge by 1s for each second you are actively attacking enemies, so it doesn’t work well with ‘disengaging’ styles of combat like stealth-spamming. For which other types of recharge are better.

If this type of cooldown reduction was applied to how sigils recharge, we could have sigils like

• Imminence : Your next attack is a critical hit (15s)
• Persistence : Your next attack deals vulnerability and grants you might for 10 seconds. (5s)
• Piercing: Your next attack is unblockable. (15s)
• Blaze: Your next attack deals 1 stack of burning for 5s (5s)
• of the Gaki: Your next attack steals 25% of target’s endurance. (15s)
• Decay: Your next attack adds 1s to existing poison and bleeding on the target (10s)

This type of recharge could also work with several traits, specially those that currently have a % chance to trigger.

Gear effects triggered from sigils and runes could also show better the status of sigils, with 4 colors:

• The sigil is in cooldown: light gray circle with a black border.
• The sigil is in cooldown in the other weapon set: dark gray circle with a white border.
• The sigil is ready: Copper circle (the current color).
• The sigil is ready in the other weapon set. A blue circle, the color you get when you invert copper.

Rising Dusk.2408:

First: You want a buff to be present on a user’s buff bar when they have a sigil ready to activate. This is very important so your opponents know what you have available and so you know what you have available.

So there are a lot of great opportunities to improve sigil desirability here, but I want to keep the “on critical hit” sigils still requiring a critical hit to reward having precision on one’s build. The goal here would be to make the effect result from every critical, but (in some cases) have reduced effect such that it maintains similar overall efficacy. Sigil of Air could probably do with having lower damage, but applying 100% of the time when off cooldown. Example:

Current Sigil of Earth
60% Chance on Critical: Inflict Bleeding (5 seconds) (Cooldown: 2 seconds)
Proposed Sigil of Earth
On Critical: Inflict Bleeding (5 seconds) (Cooldown: 2 seconds)

Chance on hit sigils, however, should always fire on next hit when they are off CD. No RNG involved. Example:

Current Sigil of Frailty
50% Chance Hit: Vulnerability (10 seconds) (Cooldown: 2s)

Proposed Sigil of Frailty
On Hit: Vulnerability (10 seconds) (Cooldown: 2s)

Condition duration sigils are very weak overall. No one runs them over much stronger sigils, and while they’re niche they should reward their niche when used.

Current Condition Duration Sigils
+20% Specific Condition Duration

Proposed Condition Duration Sigils
+33% Specific Condition Duration

On interrupt sigils are great for play and counterplay, but realistically don’t have nearly enough impact to actually sway a fight in favor of someone who successfully lands an interrupt. I would recommend improving the effects for them across the board by a solid percent.

I would say NO to more condi cancer.

btballenger.2583:

Sigil of Deflection: Knocks back an opponent (distance 150-300?) who has X damage blocked within Y seconds, maybe with an internal cooldown.

Could be an interesting way to promote timing blocks against bursts, sort of like a “perfect block” skill.

No. This would make guardian 2x more OP as it already is, and kill thief and necro from the meta. It would also make chronomancer 2x more annoying.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Here are some more that we could try and see how they work. All with the standard 9s cooldown:

• Surprise: The next attack dazes target for 0.75s
• Grace: Gain distortion for 0.75s.
• Composure: Break stun and gain 1 stacks of stability for 0.75s.
• Haste: Reduce the recharge of your weapon skills by 3 seconds and gain 2 initiative.
• Restitution: Your next 3 attacks transfer a condition.
• Ruin: The next condition you inflict lasts 50% longer. (does not bypass the total cap of 100%)
• Pyromancy: Create a blast finisher. (the visual is a small explosion like those from an engineer’s small, but there’s no damage)
• Aeromancy: Blind up to 4 nearby foes.
• True Sight: Your next attack can’t miss. (the next attack ignores blocks, evades and blindness, but you won’t lose blindness if you have it, so it’ll still affect you the next attack)

These sound awful for balance. Surprise grants you over 8% uptime on stuns simply from swapping weapons. Similarly, Grace grants you absolutely ridiculous 8.33% uptime on distortion, simply from swapping weapons. This one in particular would be awful for balance both for the person using it, and the person fighting against it. But in a coordinated team, the bunker/healer could easily run the sigil of grace and have almost 10% uptime on being completely invincible to your attacks while supporting their partner, who would still be able to contest and hold the point.

Composure not only makes breaking stuns commonplace (seriously, what other stunbreaks are on such a low CD? And it would give them stab?) but is just power creep.

The concept for Haste could be balanced, but I don’t know if it would actually bring anything except more spam to PvP. Actually I know it wouldn’t.

Restitution becomes one of the most powerful condi cleanses in the entire game. Coming in at 3 condis cleansed every 9 seconds, on top of your other cleanses. That is beyond ridiculous.

The concept for Ruin is ok actually.

Pyromancy is also ok in concept, it could be tuned to be balanced.

Aeromancy is just AoE cover condis. Nothing more than condi spam. I like the idea of generating blindness, don’t like this implementation of that idea.

True Sight. This one is the monster here. It is pure 10,000% power creep. Not only would this make your attack ignore evades (removing and nullifying one of the strongest balancing mechanics in GW2 combat), it would also ignore Blind as well? I mean do you want it to ignore invulns as well? Maybe just ignore a player’s HP entirely and be a OHKO every 9 seconds? Because that is the direction the game is headed if it keeps implementing these “one-up” mechanics that exist solely to ignore another mechanic that was used for balancing. This should never, in any way shape or form, be implemented into the game. Period. Not even in PvE.

OriOri.8724:

MithranArkanere.8957:

Here are some more that we could try and see how they work. All with the standard 9s cooldown:

• Surprise: The next attack dazes target for 0.75s
• Grace: Gain distortion for 0.75s.
• Composure: Break stun and gain 1 stacks of stability for 0.75s.
• Haste: Reduce the recharge of your weapon skills by 3 seconds and gain 2 initiative.
• Restitution: Your next 3 attacks transfer a condition.
• Ruin: The next condition you inflict lasts 50% longer. (does not bypass the total cap of 100%)
• Pyromancy: Create a blast finisher. (the visual is a small explosion like those from an engineer’s small, but there’s no damage)
• Aeromancy: Blind up to 4 nearby foes.
• True Sight: Your next attack can’t miss. (the next attack ignores blocks, evades and blindness, but you won’t lose blindness if you have it, so it’ll still affect you the next attack)

These sound awful for balance. Surprise grants you over 8% uptime on stuns simply from swapping weapons. Similarly, Grace grants you absolutely ridiculous 8.33% uptime on distortion, simply from swapping weapons. This one in particular would be awful for balance both for the person using it, and the person fighting against it. But in a coordinated team, the bunker/healer could easily run the sigil of grace and have almost 10% uptime on being completely invincible to your attacks while supporting their partner, who would still be able to contest and hold the point.

Composure not only makes breaking stuns commonplace (seriously, what other stunbreaks are on such a low CD? And it would give them stab?) but is just power creep.

The concept for Haste could be balanced, but I don’t know if it would actually bring anything except more spam to PvP. Actually I know it wouldn’t.

Restitution becomes one of the most powerful condi cleanses in the entire game. Coming in at 3 condis cleansed every 9 seconds, on top of your other cleanses. That is beyond ridiculous.

The concept for Ruin is ok actually.

Pyromancy is also ok in concept, it could be tuned to be balanced.

Aeromancy is just AoE cover condis. Nothing more than condi spam. I like the idea of generating blindness, don’t like this implementation of that idea.

True Sight. This one is the monster here. It is pure 10,000% power creep. Not only would this make your attack ignore evades (removing and nullifying one of the strongest balancing mechanics in GW2 combat), it would also ignore Blind as well? I mean do you want it to ignore invulns as well? Maybe just ignore a player’s HP entirely and be a OHKO every 9 seconds? Because that is the direction the game is headed if it keeps implementing these “one-up” mechanics that exist solely to ignore another mechanic that was used for balancing. This should never, in any way shape or form, be implemented into the game. Period. Not even in PvE.

i think you are getting a little bit too vocal, but yeah most of these would be goto if not must picks and i dont think this is what this update aims for

Does this mean sigils are going to do different things in different game modes? In WvW sigil of blood will be as is, and in PvP it will leech life on weapon swap or something?

Evan said that reworking sigils are another thing they are looking, so i propose a nwe type of sigil mechanic:

Survivor sigils

If you have been in combat mode over (x) seconds: win (y) effect

I can see interesting stuff could be done with having long-term fights that arent endless aswell.

Or a contradictory to this one:

After leaving of combat: Win/get (x) effect
or
During out of combat: Win/get (x) effect

For example:

Sigil of the scout: After leaving of combat: The swiftness boons you activate have a 20% more boon duration for 7 seconds.

Ivantreil.3092:

Evan said that reworking sigils are another thing they are looking, so i propose a nwe type of sigil mechanic:

Survivor sigils

If you have been in combat mode over (x) seconds: win (y) effect

I can see interesting stuff could be done with having long-term fights that arent endless aswell.

Or a condractory to this one:

After leaving of combat: Win/get (x) effect

For example:

Sigil of the scout: After leaving of combat: The swiftness boons you activate have a 20% more boon duration for 7 seconds.

interesting idea id like something like when in combat your critical change builds up up to a maximum and resets on crit it might be hard to balance but it would interesting to watch it play out

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Fluffball.8307:

Does this mean sigils are going to do different things in different game modes? In WvW sigil of blood will be as is, and in PvP it will leech life on weapon swap or something?

We haven’t yet decided on whether we should create new sigils or revise the old ones in PvP only. All together new sigils brings some extra overhead. New icons, new names (editing, localization, etc.) But it makes things a lot more clear.

Is this update pvp only? Because if not, I’m sure other players would have wonderful sigil ideas at the general discussion board. Especially when the community is asking for an upgrade system overhaul for GW2, which might or might not be out of scope for this particular project.

You have got to be kidding me with some of the suggestions in here.

If anything sigils like fire and air should be kept the same or buffed. As of right now they are some of the ONLY things making builds like shatter Mesmer viable. Someone suggested add burning…yeah because this game needs more conditions.

I agree that some of the sigils are pretty weak, but rather than completely demolish some of the only sigils that help keep HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD builds viable once again like shatter mesmer, why not buff some of the lackluster ones.

I have no issue with hydromancy though I feel like the damage could maybe be toned down a tiny bit.

But we see these sigils being used because much of the time there are no other options. SO, before you do something rash like kill your game harder by eliminating any form of burst potential until this game divulges into staring at each other while condis tick down.

It would be nice to see a sigil that works with ferocity… but please do not do anything rash.

Hey i’d really like to see temporary fury on sigils if there’s any chance perception is getting removed, it’s nice for certain power necro builds to use perception or accuracy to supplement some of the crit chance lost when taking cavalier/precisionless amu’s, Any chance we could see something like this?

Edit: also we’re forced into using pack/rage runes which reduces damage output a bit for this specific boon, so this would open up build choices quite a lot

Evan Lesh.3295:

Allarius.5670:

An important distinction to make regarding the stated high level goals would be clarifying the replacement for RNG gameplay. Do you mean “X% chance on-hit(crit) apply Y effect (Z cooldown)” becomes:

1) Like RisingDusk suggests, “Apply X effect on hit (Y cooldown)”

or

2) “On weapon swap, your next X hit(s) apply Y effect”

Option 2 gives us the most counter play and predictability. There may be room for having consistent effects such as (1) “on attack, every 2 seconds”, but sigils like that will likely always be best in slot. They would have to balanced by their cooldown, which would then blur the distinction with next hit after swap. That being said, there may be some awesome sigils ideas that can use on hit mechanics we haven’t thought of (that also wouldn’t be OP)!

Another note: It is very unlikely we would ever add a form of CC to sigils.

FWIW, Evan, one of the reasons that the ranger class doesn’t really work out for me is that, pretty much, QuickDraw is the “best of the best” next-to-mandatory trait, and it requires weapon swapping on cooldown to take advantage of it.

I just … don’t enjoy that. It feels like a “don’t suck” button I have to hit in order to play the class, rather than something strategic or tactical to include usefully. (I also recognize that this is how I feel about it, and others probably feel very differently.)

So, even if an “every N seconds” sigil was literally “every 9 seconds” and thus identical to “after weapon swap”, I’d be happier with it. (…and before you say it, swapping to the same weapon type is worse than to a different one, because it feels to me even more like a “don’t suck” button. )

Geo doom combo is an instant condi application swap which encourages skillful play and allows for outplay potential, there is no reason to nerf it at all.

Reducing RNG gameplay and increasing counterplay in a competitive game mode sounds like a pretty solid high level design goal. If any sigils are holding up certain builds then perhaps those sigils are only bandaids and the builds require (1) more tuning and consideration on the part of the developers or (2) the build is not intended by developers to work in the fashion it is trying to be used.

Solid, clearly stated design goals that are shared with the community feels like a great way to move forward. Clearing the field of bandaid sigils, especially in the name of improving gameplay, should lead to improved balancing for over performing and under performing builds in the long run.

Edit: The added damage from fire and air feels nice, as does landing a hydromancy and leech or a geomancy and doom, but feeling nice and good for the game are two very different things. It is important to take a step back and look at the over all picture and try to judge by what you think is meaningful choice and good design principle.

Things like Sigil of Air, Fire and blood end up being better than Sigil of Force for damage because they proc often and hit hard, and they’re bursty too. And with how high damage is, I’d hate to see Force get buffed, so I would like to see Air, Fire and Blood nerfed a tad. Enough so that Force can get a chance in PvP.

I like some of the suggestions for other boosts like +5% hp, +5% crit damage etc.

Chance on hit sigils are all around terrible with the exception of Frailty and that’s because Frailty has a short CD and boosts damage done to a target. Sigil of Ice is fine because chill is OP (hint, nerf chill and then buff Sigil of Ice). Sigil of Purity would also be fine if conditions weren’t so rampant and spammy. Actually, none of the chance of hit sigils are that bad. It’s just the state of the game that sucks and indirectly makes them bad.

I will always advocate for longer ICD on the crit sigils as long as you remove the double RNG. Chance on a chance is stupid. And the chances aren’t even that low, so just remove the chance on crit and make it just plain on crit with a longer ICD. That could be a good nerf to Air, Fire and Blood because they could proc less but more reliably. Still, in the end, they would do less overall damage with longer ICDs. Also, ditch Sigil of Rage. It’s literally only useful with quickness stacking gimmick builds to help keep the quickness going longer. The RNG aspect of it makes it unreliable.

On kill sigils are awful except for Bloodlust, which only thieves use. They’re terrible because they’re only useful after a fight. I’m glad to see you considering a total removal of them.

Consider “on heal” sigils which proc when you use a skill that provides a healing effect. These can proc when gaining Adrenal Health, regeneration, Soothing Mist and any direct healing from any skill.

Some chance on heal sigil effect ideas: condition cleanse, damage proc (maybe wait on that one till over damage across the board is lower), heal proc, AoE heal proc that only heals allies, gain quickness, gain protection, gain regeneration, gain 10 endurance, gain swiftness, gain vigor, AoE chill, AoE cripple, AoE weakness. I can go on. The reason to add these is so that heal specs have more options than Renewal, Water and Transference.

Why on-swap sigils should not be nerfed

1. Their effects are player-controlled rather than RNG.
Therefore their effectiveness is determined by player skill rather than a roll of the dice. I.e. a good player might consistently time a geo-doom swap between an opponent’s evade frames, achieving high effectiveness, whereas a bad player would miss a large percentage of them, achieving much lower effectiveness.

2. They open up options for counter play.

To illustrate my second point: Some classes are naturally countered by others due to the difference in speed. For example, thief is a natural counter to warrior because warrior has no skills fast enough to hit thief between evading/blinded/blocking intervals, meaning thief can simply evade/blind/block everything the warrior attempts to do on reaction. Warrior can acquire some level of counter-play in this matchup by using on-swap sigils such as sigil of agility (to speed up skills in order to hit the thief during vulnerable frames) or sigil of hydromancy + intelligence (for an instant attack, also to hit the thief during vulnerable frames). This is just one example among many (another one would be a necromancer using geomancy+doom sigils in order to hit a mesmer between invulnerable/evade/block frames).

DiogoSilva.7089:

Is this update pvp only? Because if not, I’m sure other players would have wonderful sigil ideas at the general discussion board. Especially when the community is asking for an upgrade system overhaul for GW2, which might or might not be out of scope for this particular project.

Often, ideas that are good for PvP aren’t necessarily all that hot for PvE (and vice versa). Some of the ideas mentioned here, while good here, would be really undesirable in PvE.

It’s better to keep discussions on both separate.

Evan Lesh.3295:

The PvP team is investigating opportunities to update the sigils available in the game mode. This means removing, adding, balancing, and reworking. Our high-level goals include reducing RNG gameplay, promoting counter-play, reducing raw damage output, and removing ineffective choices. Some example changes would be removing on-kill stacking sigils and changing proc sigils to on-next-attack effects.

We are looking for feedback on these goals and potential changes. Feel free to suggest new sigils, sigils that exist in other game modes, or feedback on current sigils.

I am going to mainly focus on current sigils with recommendations towards newer ones.

First, Stacking Stat Sigils are GONE from SPvP, and maybe keep them in WvW. I feel they are mediocre at best and overall worthless.

Next, I dislike anything that is chance on hit/crit hit. These effects should be reworked so that certain interactions have to take place for the effect to kick in.

For example, Sigil of Ice has a 30% chance on hit to apply chill. I don’t want to make this a swap, so instead my first RECOMMENDED rework schema is changing on-hit effects like this to:

Sigil of Ice: While in this weapon-set you gain stacks of frost per landed hit, reaching 3 stacks allows you to Chill on next hit for a duration.

Instead of a random effect, the chill is now controlled by the user, and can be counter-played by the opponent. The amount of hits for stacks to charge up fully can vary on the effect in question, Chill is a potent condition so maybe if you land 5 or so hits rather than 3 hits for something like a Cripple would be nice.

Critical hit sigils should just do a flat effect immediately on the first critical, balance comes with the kind of effect it does.

%Cond Duration Sigils actually need a merge. Merge Weakness and Poison, Burning and Vuln, Chill and Bleed, and have Cripple merge with Stun/Daze/Fear Duration increase.

These give the duration sigils a passive theme instead of a potent effect that you can get from the newer on-hit sigils.

Lastly, I like on-swap sigils still, Hydro and Geo just need to be tuned down a bit.

Lemme know if this breaks anything.

Evan Lesh.3295:

OriOri.8724:

Question. When you say this do you mean reduce raw damage output in general, o reduce raw damage output that comes specifically from sigils? Because its an important distinction.

Regardless I do want to see some sigils removed. I think that sigils like hydromancy/geomancy that damage enemies purely for swapping weapons is an outdated concept and doesn’t add anything except damage spam to the game mode. I really would love to see them removed. Swapping to a weapon happens when you want to gain an advantage in the current fight, whether that is more pressure, more defense or more mobility. You shouldn’t gain an extra advantage of dealing potentially several thousand damage from weapon swapping. And they just make it absolutely trivial to add cover conditions. You don’t even have to think about it and do it intelligently.

We mean raw damage from sigils. You are spot on in your thinking as we feel the same about sigils like hydro and geo.

Please don’t remove Hydromancy. Without it scrapper gets kited around like crazy.

Geo doom swap is an active swap that allows for outplay potential and therefore promotes skillful play. There’s no reason to nerf it

Sins.4782:

How about adding some sigils with ‘on heal’ or ‘on elite’ effects similar to some current rune sets? Outside of stuff like that I don’t really see how you’re going to promote counterplay with sigils, as the vast majority of them are too passive by nature to play around. The only ones you can even hope to deny right now are some of the on-swap sigils with proper predictions, and leeching/intelligence which are the only ones with visual indicators for players to work with. All the on-hit/on-crit ones don’t go on cooldown when an attack that would have proced them is blocked/dodged/invulned, and there’s flat out nothing active anyone can do against the +duration ones. I suppose if you really wanted you could change on-swaps to have a wind-up animation and AoE ring before the effects are applied.

The effects of sigils are so relatively minor compared to actual skills that you would never bother to try and counter, so they don’t need counterplay.

Prefer it if they’re revised across all game modes.
That way the PvEasy world gets a tiny little bit harder and thus more enjoyable.
And pls don’t remove too much.
unles stuff like the vuln and cripple duration ones were meant because those are hilariously useless

Darn it you guys seems to know how to rope me into playing at least 15 to 20 games per a season. Even with the knowledge, that it’s not going to anywhere to my liking. Darn you guys!

On a more serious note. The changes and thought pattern sounds pretty solid to me. If yall keep this up. I might just have a place for me in GW2’s PvP yet. Good change here.

I would like to see Sigils with more functionality where they affect current skills.

ex
Sigil of Healing – Your heal skill now cleanses one condition in combat.
Sigil of Empowerment – Activating a sigil grants 1 stack of Stability (3s)

In that same train of thought we can create sigils to add a functionality on a skill category basis (physical, elite) or even specific skills.

I don’t think they should be powerfull but good enough to make a player debate it’s usage, for instance activate your sigil that doesn’t usually provide stability in order for a uninterruptable stomp. But there is risk reward if you are in a big fight because you used a CD.

Just brainstorming!

If sigils get unique buffs showing on player buff bars, can we have 3 distinct rows for buffs? Ie. First row is for boons, 2nd is for unique combat buffs(stances, sigil icons, auras), 3rd row is for other buffs(mainly PvE related; banner buffs, other similar things) to facilitate looking at boons/buffs quickly and being able to sort out which are relevant and remaining durations

Sigil of Breach: After swapping weapons your next 3 attacks are unblockable.

Some suggestions.
Changes:
Sigil of Celerity and Demon summoning changed to give stacks per attack instead of kill.
Sigil of Mischief – Will randomly applies taunt, fear or blind for each snowball on weapon swap.
Sigil of Peril, Chilling, Debility, Hobbling – Will also increase the effect by 25% (Vulnerability, Chill, Weakness, Cripple) as well as the duration increase.
New Sigils:
Sigil of Waves – Blast/Leap finishers add X damage.
Sigil of Storms – Projectile/Whirl finishers are applied twice and X damage per bolt.
Sigil of Aggression – Gain stacks per attack at 25 stacks do an unblockable none crit attack for x damage and gain a random aura.
Sigil of Defense – Gain stack per attack at 25 stacks gain 2 boons and remove a condition

Justine.6351:

Sigil of Breach: After swapping weapons your next 3 attacks are unblockable.

This is really cool. I’d limit it to 2 though maybe… seems like it would be stronger than intended?

Ben Phongluangtham.1065:

Fluffball.8307:

Does this mean sigils are going to do different things in different game modes? In WvW sigil of blood will be as is, and in PvP it will leech life on weapon swap or something?

We haven’t yet decided on whether we should create new sigils

Just my two cents: I’ve been playing since launch, the Sigil market is long overdue for an overhaul. However, if you’re going through all the work of making new items, icons, and effects, why not introduce Ascended Sigils to provide a new time/gold sync? The new sigils could require large amounts of materials like Snowflakes or Ambrite (stuff we have too much of in the game).

This also gives you a chance to look at what kind of sigils are unused (selling for vendor prices on the TP), and carefully design the new Sigils to avoid the pitfalls of the old ones. Those pitfalls being:

1. Too narrow of a focus (ex: Ogre Killing Sigils, +10% Damage to Ogres)

2. Too weak of a bonus (ex: Sigil of Hobbling, +20% Cripple duration)

3. Too little of a buff (ex: Sigil of Celerity, 5 seconds of Quickness after killing 25 enemies)

From my experience these are the most underused sigils.

All condition duration sigils

Condi spike damage is far more effective than increasing duration of some condis. Increasing duration of chill has little meaning when most chills last like 2s anyhow. You would have to stack chill duration from multiple sources.

I do see meaning in increasing duration of things like chill cripple and stun, but a 20% modifier isn’t much unless the condi can be consistently reapplied

sigil of generocity

Relies on rng to randomly remove a condi. Not reliable

Sigl of nullification

More rng. It could remove 25 stacks of might or 2s of swiftness

Sigil of Rage

I like sigil of rage but its CD is too long. 1s of quickness with a 10s icd might be better though it competes with sigil of agility.

On Kill
Stat modifiers should be removed and others are meaningless in smaller fights. Much better utilized in wvw where you can get kill credit from tagging downed players

Sigil of Frailty

Not very good. Vulnerability is only affective if alot of it can be applied at once. Perhaps give it 5 stacks of vulnerability with kitten icd. I feel this type of sigil could be affective with Opening strike builds on ranger or some necro builds but it doesn’t suit “on hit”.

Just a few random, not-too-well-ordered thoughts from a competitive player’s perspective:

Make on-crit sigils activate on the first crit you do. This should be done for all on-crit sigils, if you want to remove RNG. For example, remove 50% chance for Air/Fire to proc, just make them proc on the first crit. This will make it so that not every build is able to throw air/fire on and get a significant DPS increase, but it will keep its spike functionality. So, just a 100% chance to proc on all on-crit sigils, maybe ICD increase on them to compensate for this.

Energy is pretty good as it is at the moment.

Doom is kind of silly. It’s always been. Having the potential to almost permanently (actually permanently poison if you have ANY +condi duration) is kind of weird. I would maybe just change it so that it inflicts a few (2 i think? 3 would be kinda spooky) stacks of poison for a lesser time, to keep the option of a quick swap into a weapon while someone is healing to reduce healing and keep the damage. Higher risk, but more rewarding. Maybe just flat-out reduce the poison duration without any other changes. It’ll still be a good sigil, probably, b/c of condition duration prevalence.

Healing sigils atm are fine I think. Blood should get the same changes I suggested earlier with ICD increase and no RNG on crit. Blood+Air on a non-DPS build actually significantly increases your damage and your sustain. I think this should be carefully looked over. I don’t think it should be removed completely, or changed too drastically aside from the earlier mentioned changes to on-crit sigils, but, I think it has the potential to be a bit silly. I think being able to increase your damage at the cost of giving up some sustain is okay. However, it’s important to note that Blood helps people increase their damage and their sustain. There’s also not much else you can run in the slot of air/blood on a build like Druid’s meta sustain build. You autoattack in Staff a lot, and you have a lot of sustain, and some damage, and crit chance, why not take something that gives you both sustain and damage?

As for other healing sigils (Renewal, water) I think these are okay. Renewal forces you to snuggle up nice and close to the person you want to heal. Makes you take cleave, most of the time. Not too much, but, it’s some amount of counterplay.

Leeching is kind of weird. I haven’t been able to make up my mind if it’s imbalanced or not for the past two years. It is a guarenteed 900 damage and 900 health if you hit it, but it’s not as silly as Doom is. I also don’t know if you can nerf this and also not look at Blood sigil, because it fills a role as an essentially lower-risk version of this sigil.

Geomancy is also kinda silly lol. 3 stacks of bleed for a significant amount of time, even without condi duration, which a lot of condi builds run. It’s good for damage. I don’t know if it needs a nerf. Probably not.

I don’t know what to suggest for things like +20% poison or +20% bleed duration sigils. I hope the rest of my post is helpful. Sorry it’s not the most ordered thing lol. Honestly, I think just a nerf to Doom would be a really positive change. It can get silly.

CaptainShrimps.9143:

Why on-swap sigils should not be nerfed

1. Their effects are player-controlled rather than RNG.
Therefore their effectiveness is determined by player skill rather than a roll of the dice. I.e. a good player might consistently time a geo-doom swap between an opponent’s evade frames, achieving high effectiveness, whereas a bad player would miss a large percentage of them, achieving much lower effectiveness.

2. They open up options for counter play.

To illustrate my second point: Some classes are naturally countered by others due to the difference in speed. For example, thief is a natural counter to warrior because warrior has no skills fast enough to hit thief between evading/blinded/blocking intervals, meaning thief can simply evade/blind/block everything the warrior attempts to do on reaction. Warrior can acquire some level of counter-play in this matchup by using on-swap sigils such as sigil of agility (to speed up skills in order to hit the thief during vulnerable frames) or sigil of hydromancy + intelligence (for an instant attack, also to hit the thief during vulnerable frames). This is just one example among many (another one would be a necromancer using geomancy+doom sigils in order to hit a mesmer between invulnerable/evade/block frames).

+1.

taking away mechanical depth is just uninteresting, at least imo…
It rewards those who use it correctly while punishing those who just swaps carelessly. Devs can tweak these sigils if they are nerfing air/blood/fire sigils but the instant on swap nature should be retained.

Also, please no +endurance on hit/crit/vigor sigils…

Kill trapper runes and perhaps infiltration as well. They contribute an excessive amount of stealth.

Ranger stealths almost as well as thief, and DH has an almost on demand stealth.

Fluffball.8307:

Justine.6351:

Sigil of Breach: After swapping weapons your next 3 attacks are unblockable.

This is really cool. I’d limit it to 2 though maybe… seems like it would be stronger than intended?

Or 1/1.5/2 seconds instead of count. Not all bursts happen with 2 damage sources.

Evan Lesh.3295:

The PvP team is investigating opportunities to update the sigils available in the game mode. This means removing, adding, balancing, and reworking. Our high-level goals include reducing RNG gameplay, promoting counter-play, reducing raw damage output, and removing ineffective choices. Some example changes would be removing on-kill stacking sigils and changing proc sigils to on-next-attack effects.

We are looking for feedback on these goals and potential changes. Feel free to suggest new sigils, sigils that exist in other game modes, or feedback on current sigils.

It’s probably broader than your design ambitions, but if you want to remove RNG, and add counterplay, then maybe consider sacrifice or symbiotic type sigils.

A sacrifice sigil could be
Increase Condition Resistance by X%, but increase Power Vulnerability by Y%
Increase Condition Damage by X%, but reduce Power damage by Y%

A symbiotic Sigil could be:
Convert X personal Skill into a group skill. For example, Healing heals your team, but reduces personal heal by X%

Someone up above mentioned a sigil for revealing stealth if you hit a player while stealthed. I quite like that. A counter to it would be a sigil that makes you immune to reveal, sacrificing other sigils that enhance different styles to gain that.

It might not work in practice, but if you want counterplay, you need to change how classes interact rather just stick to which conditions or durations you tweak.

If you know the opposing team has warrior, he’s likely going to take something that enhances blocks. A sigil that pierces block (maybe on weapon swap to avoid RNG?) might be a worthwhile swap during the prepare stage. For a warrior, i might want to be able to strip resistance too. As the warrior, i need to predict whether these sigils will be used, and prepare appropriately.

These aren’t developed ideas – just concepts based on the goals you state you wish to address – maybe they can inspire an iteration that works!

new Sigils I would like to see
> 2 second protection on block, 15 sec icd
> 5 seconds of fury on weapon swap
> sigil that grants 25% movement speed

put the on interrupt sigils in but put an icd on the boon steal and lifesteal ones of 10 seconds (mesmers and thiefs chain interrupts to easy)

bring in sigil of cleansing I like the remove condition on weapon swap

Meta shift, finally! And some drastic changes to strive for Practice in this stagnant mini game.
Also before implementing some of these concern officially; please reconsider Culling and TTK while using some of the ideas for testing, i mean not all can 25stacked Vulnerability and Amplify damage such as Might stacking. I’m not saying the pvp Team are not incapable of doing such, but sometimes it’s good to barge in and remind everyone for possible heads up in the future Team based game. <3

Crapping on hydro is the only thing I strongly disagree with. I don’t care what they do with blood, air, or fire. Hydro needs to stay because it helps counter situations that would be cheese otherwise like thieves or anything that has strong kiting.

Leave hydro alone, it brings quality to pvp by making the swap mechanic meaningful. The chill doesn’t last long, the damage is low, and it has a 9s cooldown. It’s fine.

Altie.4571:

I would like to see Sigils with more functionality where they affect current skills.

ex
Sigil of Healing – Your heal skill now cleanses one condition in combat.
Sigil of Empowerment – Activating a sigil grants 1 stack of Stability (3s)

In that same train of thought we can create sigils to add a functionality on a skill category basis (physical, elite) or even specific skills.

I don’t think they should be powerfull but good enough to make a player debate it’s usage, for instance activate your sigil that doesn’t usually provide stability in order for a uninterruptable stomp. But there is risk reward if you are in a big fight because you used a CD.

Just brainstorming!

Those are some pretty good ideas. I would like to see more sigils like this in the game.

Drindor.7901:

Geo doom swap is an active swap that allows for outplay potential and therefore promotes skillful play. There’s no reason to nerf it

Just stop already. On Swap sigils do not promote “skillfull play” at all, they promote damage spam and everyone here knows it.

Unfortunately the design space of sigils at the moment is pretty thin. You essentially have five categories of sigils – permanent bonuses, on hit/crit, on kill, on swap, and on interrupt.

Of those, on kill have no place in PvP (I think you can remove them categorically from the PvP build panel with no real loss), and permanent bonuses are, ideally, a low power fall-back option if nothing else is effective – if permanent bonus sigils are seeing a ton of play that is indicative of design failure in the other sigils available.

On interrupt sigils are not on the PvP build panel, but should be. That’s a low hanging addition to be made.

On swap sigils are generally a good set of designs. Hydromancy and geomancy are the only real concerns here, since they are essentially zero cast time, pretty powerful attacks. In a PvP game about reading and reacting to animations, zero animation nukes (or CC in the case of hydromancy) are out of place. I think re-working hydromancy and geomancy to work the way leeching does, triggering on your next attack after swapping, would be a good step here – you’d still have access to those powerful effects, but there would be counterplay from dodging or blocking the next attack instead of getting instantly hit by it.

The on-hit and on-crit sigils should all have a 100% proc chance. There’s seriously no reason to layer RNG on top of RNG when it comes to these effects. To the extent that’s done simply to make the effects weaker, well, just make the effects weaker. Weaker, more consistent effects are more healthy for PvP.

On top of that, I’d argue against pure damage (or pure condition damage) procs. Those just further encourage burst builds and don’t add much in terms of gameplay. To the extent possible, procs should have both a damage and a utility component. For instance, I’d suggest lowering the damage on Sigil of Air by about a third, but having it apply 3 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds; similarly, adding a chunk of lightning damage to Sigil of Nullification to have it deal some damage and remove a boon. This flattens the opportunity costs (and let’s be real, for the most part people just pick the damage because the utility effects are so minor in comparison) and encourages choice for the secondary effects. It also gives you an additional knob to tune on each sigil, which is helpful for balancing them.

I’d also like to see the AoE sigils pushed a bit more – I think they are fundamentally healthier designs with better high moments (hitting multiple targets with a proc), but are generally woefully underpowered.

As for other sigils? Cleansing would be desirable. A boon steal on crit would be desirable if appropriately powered.

For more design space? There are some conditionals that I think are interesting. Effect vs moving (or not moving) foes. Vs foes using a skill (or not using a skill). Vs an incapacitated foe. Perhaps not stuff you need immediately, but to think about down the line.

In the short run, I’d stick to 4 steps:

- Remove on kill from sPvP
- Add on interrupt and cleansing / torment / blight to the PvP panel
- Re-work Hydromancy and Geomancy from instant effects to on next attack
- Start design re-works on on-proc sigils from high damage or effect to moderate damage + effect.

Sigils rework

Passive
Attribute bonus
- all removed
Damage bonus
- all removed
Duration bonus
Sigil of Agony + 20% longer Bleeding duration, +5% stronger Bleeds
Sigil of Chilling + 20% longer Chilled duration, +10% stronger effect
Sigil of Debility + 20% longer Weakness duration, +10% stronger effect
Sigil of Hobbling + 20% longer Crippled duration, +10% stronger effect
Sigil of Paralyzation + 30% longer Stun duration
Sigil of Peril + 20% longer Vulnerability duration, +2% more damage if under Might
Sigil of Smoldering + 20% longer Burning duration, +5% stronger Burn
Sigil of Venom + 20% longer Poison duration, +5% stronger Poison
Sigil of Slow + 20% longer duration, +10% stronger effect

Chance on hit
- all removed

On Autoattack Hit

Sigil of Blood heal yourself for 10% of damage output on autoattacks

Sigil of Boon Destruction on 3rd chain autoattack remove boon (cooldown: 4s; doesn’t work if weapon doesn’t have chain autoattacks)

Sigil of Blind/Weakness/Slow on 3rd chain autoattack inflict blind/weakness/slow for 3/5/4 seconds (cooldown 4s; doesn’t work if weapon doesn’t have chain autoattacks)
- these are all different sigils

Sigil of Might/Protection/Aegis/Swiftness/Vigor on 3rd chain autoattack get 2 stacks of might/protection/aegis/swiftness/vigor for 15/3/8/6/5 seconds (cooldown 4s; doesn’t work if weapon doesn’t have chain autoattacks)
- these are all different sigils, and only might get 2 stacks, I hope you can understand them in this format

Sigil of Interrupt on autoattack interrupt foe’s skill (cooldown: 4s)

On critical hit

Sigil of Air 100% chance to cause a Lightning Strike on critical hit (cooldown: 4s)

Sigil of Blight removed

Sigil of Blood removed

Sigil of Earth removed

Sigil of Fire 100% chance to cause a Flame Blast on critical hit (cooldown: 6s)

Sigil of Generosity 100% chance to transfer a condition to your foe on critical hit (cooldown: 12s)

Sigil of Incapacitation 100% chance to inflict crippled for 2 seconds on critical hit (cooldown: 5s)

Sigil of Nullification 100% chance to remove a boon on critical hit (cooldown: 12s)

Sigil of Rage 100% chance to gain Quickness for 3 seconds on critical hit. Resistant to Blind for the duration (cooldown: 30s)

Sigil of Strength 100% chance to gain Might for 12s on critical hit (cooldown: 3s)

Sigil of Torment removed

Sigil of Blind 100% chance to inflict blind for 2 seconds on critical hit (cooldown: 8s)

Sigil of Weakness 100% chance to inflict weakness for 3 seconds on critical hit (cooldown: 6s)

Sigil of Slow 100% chance to inflict slow for 2 seconds on critical hit (cooldown: 8s)

On Hit

Sigil of Conditions every 5th condition you inflict heals you for 60% of your condition damage stat (cooldown: 5s)

Sigil of Finishers your finishers give 1 stack of unlockable attack for yourself and nearby allies for next 5 seconds

Sigil of Dodge When your dodge, nearby Allies under 30 Endurance gain 50 Endurance and you gain Vigor for 5 seconds. Remove Weakness condition from yourself. You cannot gain effect from other Sigil of Dodge effect for 5 seconds (basically from other player).

On weapon swap

Sigil of Agility Gain 5s of Swiftness and 1.5s of Quickness
Sigil of Battle Gain 2 stack of Might for 20 seconds
Sigil of Cleansing Remove 1 Condition
Sigil of Concentration removed
Sigil of Doom removed
Sigil of Energy removed
Sigil of Geomancy removed
Sigil of Hydromancy inflict Chilled for 2.5s
Superior Sigil of Intelligence removed
Sigil of Leeching removed
Sigil of Mischief Launch 1 / 2 / 4 blinding snowballs at foes in front of you
Sigil of Vamp your next attack heals you for 25% dmg dealt (cooldown 5 seconds)
Sigil of Defense for 2 seconds next attack you suffer heals you for 50% of damage dealt instead
Sigil of Block Gain 4s of Aegis
Sigil of Condition Removal Remove 1 Condition from nearby allies (Max 4), doesn’t work on yourself. Gain 200 Toughness for each removed for 9 seconds (cooldown: 9 seconds)
Sigil of Renewal Heal allies within 360 range for 350 health. Allies under 50% health are healed for 100% more
Sigil of Blocked if your next attack is blocked, remove 2 conditions from yourself and gain protection for 3 seconds

Maybe this would be op and overly difficult to balance, but what about sigils that drop fields?
For example:
Nature’s sigil – create a small water field at your feet when health drops below 50%
____ sigil – create a small chaos/fire/dark/poison field at your feet on weapon swap

Additionally, perhaps adding combo finishers to sigils:
Blasting Sigil – Create an explosion that damages opponents and blasts fields on weapon swap
Cyclone Sigil – create a brief tornado that damages foes and reacts with fields as a whirl finisher.

I know these seem like they are adding to the damage sigil pile, but if the dmg from their proc is low perhaps they’d be desirable for their combo finisher.

When would these changes take effect: before, during, or after Season6?

“On Kill” Sigils
Agree with removal. The “useless or snowball” argument covers it.

Geomancy
I don’t mind the design as much as the balancing. It’s weak for non-condi builds, but too strong for heavy condi builds. Disabling it and re-balancing Sigil of Earth is a better choice.

Hydromancy
There’s two parts to this: CC and damage. CC is useful for builds which lack it, but not overly strong. Still, it could be argued that sigils shouldn’t give new effects to a build. Direct damage in addition has always been excessive. Worth noting that this is the only sigil which applies any type of control effect.

“On Critical” Sigils
Mixed thoughts on this. If reducing the strength of sigils is a concern, then all the suggestions so far just increase it. The effect would need reduced or cooldown increased in order to compensate.

Using Sigil of Air (50% chance, 3s cooldown) as an example, and assuming a 0.75s attack time average and all attacks land, I calculate a 16% damage increase in the sigil over time. You’d have to bump the sigil cooldown to 3.5s in order to keep damage over time the same.

I disagree with making the on-crit effect tied to a weapon swap instead. It makes warriors, necromancers, engineers, and elementalists (less time between swaps) more powerful than every other profession. Further, not every build swaps weapons on cooldown, which would weaken sigils for them.

Other
A few other sigils to consider:

• Doom: (poison 8s on next attack after swap) Though not a problem now, it was in pre-HoT. d/d ele used it to give the healing debuff aspect of poison to their kit, which doesn’t have it. This created a problem because d/d ele relied on out-lasting opponents and a healing debuff helped a lot.
• Nullification: (remove boon on crit 5s CD) Though not powerful now, changing how on-crit works could make this a little too strong. And with how boon removal works, there’s a lot of RNG. Boon removal should be limited to profession skills.
• Generosity: (transfer condition on crit 9s CD) condition transfer should be limited to profession skills.

I dont like the idea of removing Sigils like geo or hydro.
Cause they are very basic and needed by condidion builds. It’s always important to be able to put on cover-conditions in this massive condiclear/booncorruption meta.
Especially with aoe condi remove (teammate support).

So u better change the conditions geo and hydro apply to some softcondis like cripple, weakness or blind.

• Since there are some extrem mechanic-based builds like Thief(Dodges) and Warrior (Resistance) you rather dont implement Sigils that add more of that stuff.
• add some xxx on interrupt sigils of other gamemodes
• add sigils that work like a combo-finisher (jump, explo, whirl, …)

Exedore.6320:

Still, it could be argued that sigils shouldn’t give new effects to a build.

This is something certainly worth discussing. Should sigils give new effects to a build that otherwise does not incorporate them or just increase the effectiveness of those effects it already incorporates? Where is the line drawn for classifying an effect “new”?

Adding new effects to a build via sigils feels fun for the user, but focusing on increasing effectiveness instead should make effective PvP balancing easier by removing the additional things a build can be made to do.

Windwalker.7421:

Don’t forget 20% Confusion Duration again!

No one cares of mesmer. Reduce the charging of the usual skills and enhance weapons that no one cares so they can continue to make believe they are doing something.
At this point I give up.

Can you decrease CD on sigil of generocity? It is too long given how buffed condis got compared to time when sigil came out…