Guild Wars 2

Let’s first define the term Skillcap

Skill cap is the point where a player is so good at using his abilities/class/spec – he cannot become better at it because he is limited by its mechanics, thus making him(her) skill capped. In other words – it’s the maximum level of play that can be achieved with a given spec and how much of a difference there is between a good player and a flawless player of that specific class.

Skill cap has nothing to do with how hard/easy it is to play or how weak/powerful the class is.

This bring me to another point : Game Balance

In a perfect world, every profession in a game would have “high skill cap and hard to master” but as we all know…there is no such a thing as “perfect” in real life.
The best you can ever hope to achieve is a high skill cap/medium to master ratio and even that would be a miracle to to see it properly implemented in the game without creating other major issues along the road.

The worst possible ratio ( and sadly the most common one ) is the low skill cap/easy to play ratio, this translate to a situation where a profession is easy for new starters but quickly become obsolete as the game becomes harder and the skill level of the competition increase.

From a design point of view the best course of action would be to change both aspects of the ratio at the same time but…..anet has proved time and time again how they’re only able to change one aspect at time, creating either OP or Up monsters

The ratio becomes either high skill cap/easy to play (OP) or low skill cap/hard to play (UP)..this is called lazy design

With all this said and done, I will now try to rank all 9 professions in terms of skill cap and skill level necessary to perform well on them, from highest to lowest

-NOTE- Do take in consideration my definition of OP/UP ratio and how it compares to your personal view.

Skill Cap Ranking

1) Thief
2) Revenant
3) Mesmer
4) Necromancer
5) Engineer
6) Ranger
7) Guardian
8) Elementalist
9) Warrior

Skill level

1) Thief
2) Revenant
3) Necromancer
4) Mesmer
5) Engineer
6) Ranger
7) Warrior
8) Guardian

I will not rank the elementalist for obvious reason, it’s your clear example of low skill cap/easy to play profession constantly fluctuating between OP and UP status based on the outcome of lazy design

In the end professions with a steeper learning curve but high skill cap end up being more fun and engaging to use for the whole duration of the game..they never lose a spot in the great scheme of things

High skill cap/hard to master ratio is what every design studio should strive for, it’s what get constantly asked in every profession sub-forum and that in return get constantly ignored by Anet

A clear example of this is the elementalist : people ask to add significant ways to avoid/negate dmg in an active way, thus increasing the skill cap and skill level.

But anet response has always been the same : add more passive sustain thus lowering the skill level while increasing the skill cap and this creates OP monsters, successively anet does the opposite: remove the passive and nerf what was there even before the buffs, thus reducing skill cap and increasing skill level and this by contrast creates UP monsters

Isn’t time to be fed up with this way of thinking? Isn’t time to let your voice heard?…or will you just keep wasting breath on this forum, being content of what little they give you?

Remember that for now ele remains the favourite victim of this lazy design..and I believe this time they really went overboard, not even the future addition of future OP passives will change the ele community opinion of this company…and tomorrow it may be your profession the victim of this lazy design approach.

They may or may not censer ESL players. But they do censer the forums so the topics “Don’t hurt business” manipulating players impression of the game. If we complain about something they don’t want us to the post gets infracted.

I tend to agree with your rankings for the most part, but Necros is VERY high on your list. I don’t view necro as a hard class to get into especially with MM/Condi aspect of them, but I can see how the cap is higher do to managing the mobility/active defenses of the class.

With HoT I firmly believe that only Rev/Thief are truly high skill classes. Now power mesmer is but it’s not meta thus can’t be counted.

So just to see if I’m right.. Thief is the hardest to master and still the profession that require more skill to be played? Because I doesn’t agree with that, in fact, thief mechanics is very simple to understand, the reason why it is so effective is because players in this game are really “bads” and refuse to play all the classes,.. So they aren’t just “bads”, they lack knowledge too.

IMHO the hightest skill cap goes to all the class with tons of skill, like engi/mesmer/necro/ele.. Just because the more you can use the more you have to learn to know how to properly use (I hope this last sentence have some kind of sense for who read).

On the other side the skill level table are pretty accurate for me.

ps: forgive my horrible English, I’m still learning it

It’s not because Anet created Tempest with some bunker traits that elementalists had no choice to equip that it suddenly became the easiest class to play. It may have been easy to bunker up, but it’s because everything else was so kittening hard to play and make viable that we all gave up.

Elementalists always have had the hardest combo to pull off with engineer. They have a harder rotation however, because it’s on constant cooldown. Also their skills have a huge amount of lag they have to compensate for constantly.

I played elementalist 5k hours, I’ve trained elementalists for GvGs, I’ll tell you this: You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience. I don’t think that would qualify as an easy class to play. While at the opposite, on my first match as both a warrior and DH I won a 1v2.

So placing the elementalists at the bottom of the list just makes your list completely biased.

low skill cap doesn’t always mean under powered. If somebody had 8 long range, unblockable uninteruptable instakill spells with a 1 second cooldown they’d be low skill and OP.

But yeah, more skill is more fun, although you can kinda salvage skill from easilly counterable characters, as against very good players they take lots of mindgames and patience.

Xillllix.3485:

It’s not because Anet created Tempest with some bunker traits that elementalists had no choice to equip that it suddenly became the easiest class to play. It may have been easy to bunker up, but it’s because everything else was so kittening hard to play and make viable that we all gave up.

Elementalists always have had the hardest combo to pull off with engineer. They have a harder rotation however, because it’s on constant cooldown. Also their skills have a huge amount of lag they have to compensate for constantly.

I played elementalist 5k hours, I’ve trained elementalists for GvGs, I’ll tell you this: You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience. I don’t think that would qualify as an easy class to play. While at the opposite, on my first match as both a warrior and DH I won a 1v2.

So placing the elementalists at the bottom of the list just makes your list completely biased.

You know exactly that I used to main ele for years and you know that I’m speaking the truth, nobody can forget the age of fire/water/arcana d/d.

It doesn’t matter how you put it man, the ele combos are easy, slow and predictable and that make the profession low skill cap/low skill floor with changes that can easily lead the profession towards OP or UP status, more easily than with other professions.

GW2 elementalist is bad design..that’s all there is to say

As I’ve said already, they should increased skill cap and skill floor at the same time..but they never do it! They simply add more passive powercreep that makes eles very OP while still being very easy to use

This is the major problem : Lazy design

People ask for more condi clear on Tempest..Anet adds more passive regen that forces you into water, making a bunker spec even stronger

People ask for more ways to negate dmg on core ele…Anet adds more protection, regen, vigor that makes bunker even stronger

And so on so on, you ask for more active skills..anet always answer with passive crap that makes eles more durable but easier to use

Warrior share the same scenarios with eles..but with wars they make 2 steps forward..and then on small step backward..but they’re moving forward in the end.
With ele they do 2 steps…then go back 4 steps…so the class becomes worst and worst

Here is the actual skill rankings of the classes.

Listed from most skill requiring to least skill requiring.
1. the class I main
2. my second favorite class
3. the class that sucks against my favorite classes
4. the class that is meh against my favorite classes
5. non-viable class
6. non-meta class.
7. class that is ok against my second favorite class
8. class that is ok against my main
9. class that counters my main.

Crinn.7864:

Here is the actual skill rankings of the classes.

Listed from most skill requiring to least skill requiring.
1. the class I main
2. my second favorite class
3. the class that sucks against my favorite classes
4. the class that is meh against my favorite classes
5. non-viable class
6. non-meta class.
7. class that is ok against my second favorite class
8. class that is ok against my main
9. class that counters my main.

Where do you see a thief?
http://imgur.com/a/whhhJ

To be honest this ranking thread and most other will be inaccurate or carry some type of profession bias, skillcap is going to be rated on build more than the profession. Thief should be around mid tier when they have Daredevil slotted. If you want to know what a real high skill cap build is, it’d probably be a Fresh Air Ele.

If I may ask for clarification, what exactly are the ultimate goals of “skilled play?”

I mean, is it just being able to do everything your skill cap allows?
Or is there a specific purpose in mind? Like being able to defeat an equally skill opponent in 1v1? Or to 1v5? Or to never get hit?

Basically, if a player were to reach the maximum skill level with the highest skill capped profession, what would that player actually be able to do? Basically be like Neo in the Matrix? Or would there still be “hard counters” that would block it’s success?

Xillllix.3485:

You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience.

I hope you’re talking about Scepter or something because both D/D and Staff are easy as hell to rotate optimally and reactively with.

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

Aktium.9506:

Xillllix.3485:

You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience.

I hope you’re talking about Scepter or something because both D/D and Staff are easy as hell to rotate optimally and reactively with.

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

Maybe we don’t have the same definition of optimally…

Aktium.9506:

Xillllix.3485:

You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience.

I hope you’re talking about Scepter or something because both D/D and Staff are easy as hell to rotate optimally and reactively with.

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

I guess it depends on build,cause d/d zerker ele is probally the hardest thing to pull off.It aint the kind i do my rotation no matter what,cause i can tank anything they throw at me.Engie always felt easier to play than ele,but again you would have to compare stats aswell,zerker SD engie is surely harder than some cele/cleric ele.But cele/cleric engie…. u got the point.

Glassie classes i would vote for ele and engie and necro to be hardest.Than ranger “not druid”,stealth+ports helps glass builds a looot,than guard/warr and only than the rest.

Highest skill cap coming from ESL player:

Guard
Rev
Mes
Thief
Necro
Eng
Warr
Druid
Ele

Yeah I put guard on top sorry bads. Because I probably am the best at it but I still think I’m playing at like 90% effectiveness. Maybe there just are no players above 90% on any class but I know there’s still more potential in guard (and I know I have to put way more effort into my game play than anyone except some revs)

You cant really compare overall complexity, since even though SKILL rotation on necro is ridiculously easy… positioning and map awareness are way more difficult / important than on lets say thief.

The only thing you can compare, is builds. And there, sorry to say this… I dont agree with your list at all.

You list thief as most difficult profession. Reality is though, that you can play a thief with so many failsafes, it becomes very easy to stay alive and decap/cap empty nodes while adding teamfights for faster kills.

Also, I dont agree with you on your “perfect world” scenario. Skill “level” or skill “cap” dont matter. What matters is a good balance and spread of dmg output and dmg mitigation.
Season1 was horribly unbalanced because dmg mitigation was way too high overall.
Season2 nerfed dmg mitigation, but at the same time didnt didnt have as much “spread” (support guard and mesmer were basically removed from game, leaving “only” druid, engi and ele)
Season3 was imo quite nicely balanced.
Season4 removed a huge chunk of dmg mitigation, making this season basically the reverse of season1.

An even distribution of mitigating and damaging skills over all professions… thats what is important.

Skill “level” or some kind of perceived skill “cap”? Isnt. With enough dedication, you can train a monkey to play thief (yes, a monkey has enough decision-making abilities for that).

If you want to raise the skill level in gw2… lower cooldowns to make the game faster paced… THATS what skill in computer games is about. Having faster reactions, making faster the correct decisions. Everybody can decide on the right move… given enough time to evaluate all parameters. Making that decision fast… thats skill.

And your post kinda highlights that. You perceive thief as having a high skill level and skill cap… truth is though… thief is just FAST. You die fast, you kill fast, you move fast. At least with a squishy build

Xillllix.3485:

Aktium.9506:

Xillllix.3485:

You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience.

I hope you’re talking about Scepter or something because both D/D and Staff are easy as hell to rotate optimally and reactively with.

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

Maybe we don’t have the same definition of optimally…

There’s not a lot too it though. When I say optimally I just mean rotating the skills to maximize might blasting, damage output and cooldown management.

KaporHabakuk.6219:

I guess it depends on build,cause d/d zerker ele is probally the hardest thing to pull off.

Kind of a moot point since zerker ele anything is really hard to pull off in PvP.

Crinn.7864:

Here is the actual skill rankings of the classes.

Listed from most skill requiring to least skill requiring.
1. the class I main
2. my second favorite class
3. the class that sucks against my favorite classes
4. the class that is meh against my favorite classes
5. non-viable class
6. non-meta class.
7. class that is ok against my second favorite class
8. class that is ok against my main
9. class that counters my main.

This post is gold.

kitten.5862:

Highest skill cap coming from ESL player:

Guard
Rev
Mes
Thief
Necro
Eng
Warr
Druid
Ele

Yeah I put guard on top sorry bads. Because I probably am the best at it but I still think I’m playing at like 90% effectiveness. Maybe there just are no players above 90% on any class but I know there’s still more potential in guard (and I know I have to put way more effort into my game play than anyone except some revs)

Nice bait 7/10.

kitten.5862:

Highest skill cap coming from ESL player:

Guard
Rev
Mes
Thief
Necro
Eng
Warr
Druid
Ele

Yeah I put guard on top sorry bads. Because I probably am the best at it but I still think I’m playing at like 90% effectiveness. Maybe there just are no players above 90% on any class but I know there’s still more potential in guard (and I know I have to put way more effort into my game play than anyone except some revs)

cant tell if this post is either sarcastic or delusional

If we’re specifically talking about meta builds, then yes, all Ele meta builds are the lowest skill cap class for the past few years along with the old hambow warrior, sentinel mesmer, and turret engi. Celestial Ele is the prime example of a class being carried by stats/amulet.

In the other hand, I bet most people would agree that a zerker DD or Fresh Air S/D would be the highest skill cap if someone can actually pull it off in high tier PvP in this meta but who are we kidding? Eles will forever be stat and amulet reliant unless we see some massive changes. It will forever be the trademark of Anet’s bad class design.

Seriously though, who would have thought of stacking bruiser traits on the squishiest class in the game if they wanted build diversity? They just blatantly promoted bunker playstyle for the class and out of nowhere they say that they don’t want bunkers anymore. Honestly, that’s fine by me but there were no actual buffs to non bunker builds at all.

Aktium.9506:

Xillllix.3485:

Aktium.9506:

Xillllix.3485:

You can’t do a perfect rotation of skills with that class without over 2k hours experience.

I hope you’re talking about Scepter or something because both D/D and Staff are easy as hell to rotate optimally and reactively with.

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

Maybe we don’t have the same definition of optimally…

There’s not a lot too it though. When I say optimally I just mean rotating the skills to maximize might blasting, damage output and cooldown management.

There is a lot to it, and no optimally I don’t mean the basics. What you mention are the things new players need to learn, they have nothing to do with knowing how to chain the skills perfectly according to the context. I swear I have seen only a dozen eles in my play time actually master the art of the class, and I’m talking all weapons, not just d/d.

People landing 5-6 skills simultaneously with staff, it’s just not for everyone and specially not a low-skill level.

sinject.4607:

kitten.5862:

Highest skill cap coming from ESL player:

Guard
Rev
Mes
Thief
Necro
Eng
Warr
Druid
Ele

Yeah I put guard on top sorry bads. Because I probably am the best at it but I still think I’m playing at like 90% effectiveness. Maybe there just are no players above 90% on any class but I know there’s still more potential in guard (and I know I have to put way more effort into my game play than anyone except some revs)

cant tell if this post is either sarcastic or delusional

must be delusional but I’d like to see your list as a tier 15 player

There are specific ways of chaining Ele skills to aqcuire optimal defense and offense and it’s usually enough in most scenarios. They’re simply too good and too easy to chain that’s why some people say that chaining skills is easy. Though there are some people who go out of their way and create new chain combos, that’s where it starts to be hard like you stated in your staff example (your example of chaining 5~6 skills simultaenously leaves you with too little attunements to work on if your enemy pops stab).

The weapon class with the highest number of different chain combos would actually be S/D.

kitten.5862:

sinject.4607:

kitten.5862:

Highest skill cap coming from ESL player:

Guard
Rev
Mes
Thief
Necro
Eng
Warr
Druid
Ele

Yeah I put guard on top sorry bads. Because I probably am the best at it but I still think I’m playing at like 90% effectiveness. Maybe there just are no players above 90% on any class but I know there’s still more potential in guard (and I know I have to put way more effort into my game play than anyone except some revs)

cant tell if this post is either sarcastic or delusional

must be delusional but I’d like to see your list as a tier 15 player

So what makes a guardian so hard to play in your opinion?

IMO, what makes a class complex:

1 – Combos:
To use combos you need to aim the right skills at the right time and combine things for a final result. This requires understanding game mechanics, having a good timing and aim. A good thief can get 4 HS out of a single BP, a good ele or can stack 25 might before a fight without passive traits… How well coordinate you are to use combos and how much your class depends on it to achieve good results (pve or pvp). This used to make engies and eles “complicated”, sadly their Especs changed that a bit.

2 – Active skills X Passive skills
How much your class depends on active skills instead of passive ones. Its not about the most complex rotation or the most extensive one, its how much of the results come from you and how much come from the build/game. This is more evident on passive defenses… what requires more player skill: “you become invulnerable when under 25%hp”; or “your <invulnerability skill> gets out of CD when you are hit under 25% hp.” ? But this happens a lot with offensive skills too… apply burn with every 3rd attack, critical hits do another hit, etc…

[might continue later]

Supreme.3164:

Let’s first define the term Skillcap

Skill Cap Ranking

1) Thief
2) Revenant
3) Mesmer
4) Necromancer
5) Engineer
6) Ranger
7) Guardian
8) Elementalist
9) Warrior

Skill level

1) Thief
2) Revenant
3) Necromancer
4) Mesmer
5) Engineer
6) Ranger
7) Warrior
8) Guardian

Are you serious or just kidding us?

You think Unblockable F1 > Dagger 1 1 1 1 1 1 > 3 dodges > shadowstep >Unblockable F1 > Dagger 1 1 1 1 1 gameplay needs a lot skill cap? Thief is one of most easy class since gw2 release. You just need brain, play for decap or be +1 for fast killing. Dont jump in mid zerg fight. Thats it. Btw you can see around some troll build theifs too but we talking about serious games.

Second one in your list is Revenant. Just lol. Must be really hard to play with perma unblockable skills, insane dps with endless evades, blocks, health fuller heal without any limitation, teleport and blocks. As you can see in every single video or meta build description power rev has a easy unstoppable sword staff combo. After run back, use your blocks, use your insane heal skill if you need then repeat again. If you think you need “skill cap” for doing this you should stop playing gw2 pvp.

And man.. you saying ranger is harder than ele-warrior-guard.. no words!

Here is my top 3 list. I dont wanna sort : Ele – Engi – Mesmer. You should know what to do with those 3 classes. All others same to me.

Top OP Season 4 : Druid and Rev. Less effort much gain
Top Easy Playable Classes Season 4 : Guardian, Necromancer, Thief, Warrior.

Aktium.9506:

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

It’s around 7 times as easy to win as engi as staff ele, and three times as easy as d/d ele

duster.7013:

Aktium.9506:

Engi is a lot harder because there’s a kittenload more of stuff you have to aim and lead.

It’s around 7 times as easy to win as engi as staff ele, and three times as easy as d/d ele

That’s like saying it’s 5x easier for a staff ele to win than a SD engi, or 10x easier for a d/d ele :P

In general though it depends entirely on what build someone is playing on the class, not really the class itself.

Arguing about skillcap in GW2 is like arguing about who will come top of the special needs class.

In my opinion the most difficult class to play are thief and mesmer. The reason is not the class itself, but for the fact that their role requires more strategy. Having a thief mechanicaly good but with no strategy is quite unsuefull. A thief has to rotate fast and properly. Quite the same for mesmer : if you want to be usefull you have to know the map, know the spot where to use your staff 2 for example , use your portal smartly. My main is scrapper but scrapper is really an easy class to play ( not like core engi ) . A good scrapper is also a really good support for your team ( eg 3 and 5 to clean condi can helps a team fight really much ) or ress and stomp but thief and mesmer in my opinion requires much more map knowledge and rotation . Condi mesmer is simpler than power one, but in any case you have to use your skill with attention becouse your “burst” is also your condi removal and a great part of your healing … so it is really easy to waste them . Thief in this is simpler

I hate these profession based assumptions. It imply that all builds within a profession are equal when the fact of the matter is they are not by a long shot.

Such ranking will always be meaningless unless you precise a build and a context. Then, and only then, will it begin to make sense.

Mesmer, warrior, and thief probably have the most build diversity within their own class to be honest. Many different things work with these classes. Sadly that doesn’t mean thief has any viable builds vs counter classes.

I have seen this topic before many times.

With a finite amount of professions that each have a finite amount of skills, there is no skill floor or ceiling. There is only time and immersion.
It is like arguing a a house with 9 rooms is inherently more difficult to use than a house with 4 bedrooms.
Sure it may take a a night of two of walking to the bathroom in dark to remember exactly where the staircase is and where the light switches are, but after that you do it without thinking.

The greater testament of skill of what you use in any given moment. You can take the most complex profession and button smash spam and or you can take the most streamed line and use them so everything is purposeful and decisive.

Much the same as the 9 bedroom home can be used simply as a family home, and the 4 bedroom and can also be used as a family home and run a small business.

The amount of skills, traits, sigils and amulets doesn’t have any bearing on skill, it is only when they used appropriately for an advantageous outcome that it can now be deemed skill.

In this sense, making more from less would be skill ceiling for skill.

Building a warrior that can solo, bruise, zerg and team support and provide utility would be the apex expression of skill, because you have taken the profession with the least, and got the most from them. (Provided their use is purposeful and decisive.)