Guild Wars 2

Well I had heard a lot of rumors about how strong this build had become. I dueled my friend and he literally couldn’t die, but I just assumed that is because he is an amazing player. I’ve been seeing more and more D/D ele in all PvP formats and had trouble killing them, but assumed it was just me. Until I just tried out the build…

I was using clerics stats (yeah I know the meta is celestial, but I found clerics did the job pretty darn well) with strength runes and running 0/0/10/30/30 cantrips with evasive arcana. I was running the new and improved (or old un nerfed if you prefer) Signet of Restoration and MF, AoE, and CF (although that one is variable, but I liked it for the condi clear and regen+vigor).

I found that I was near unkillable. I never lost 1v1 (admittedly condi builds were much harder because of the low vitality, and I had to be careful for poison). The auto attack for d/d ele is a 1/2 cast time and each cast heals me for 324. So that’s 648hps just from auto attacks and SoR. Not to mention all the cleansing waves I can get from various traits and water 5. Plus the regen from my cantrips and the vigor made it a nightmare for someone to try to kill me alone.

But the worst part? My damage was still pretty darn good. Power scales well on an ele, so clerics was ok for damage. My Fire grabs were hitting for ~4K thanks to my handy strength runes which are dps gifts from the balance team. My auto attacks were shabby admittedly, but it still didn’t take me long to kill people.

Not trying to make a thread QQing and asking for insta nerf, just putting out my observations. Honestly I think it is a combination of SoR getting buffed too much, and strength runes just being ridiculously powerful since might is easily gotten in this game.

What do other people think?

I’d say eles are in a good spot now. Not overpowered at all as it’s still hard to win against hambow for example (although you won’t loose either) or turrent-engis. Conditions have always been a hard thing for eles to deal with due to low HP-pool so also fear-necros will be able to kill you easily if you have no stun-break ready; same goes for Zoo-builds. You also can’t do much against perma-evasion-thiefs since they can reset the fight anytime they want. So basically you can loose against any class if it’s played well but you can also beat them which is how it should be. Also in team-fights the ele is easily downed with a little focus-burst from two players due to its low life-pool. Therefore eles are far from unkillable like Guardians or those pesky engineers…

A few words about damage: In my eyes ele-(pvp)-damage is still quite low compared to other classes. Even more when you take the huge CDs in account but Runes of Strenght ensure now that also eles can kill something with a rather defensive spec (fitting into the current bunker-meta). The runes might be OP but they’re available to everybody so that’s not for discussion here.
The unnerf of Signet and the water GM-trait were the right thing to do. People even stopped complaining about RTL so I guess ele is really fine atm.

Nerf strength Runes. That is all.

You played with cleric? Mate, there’s literally no cleric eles playing competitive pvp. That amulet is nothing but heals, you really lack all the damage.

If you are playing that build you are harming your team.

I enjoy facerolling on my new hambow… er excuse me, d/d ele.

(seriously though, its nice to have an ele build that a warrior can’t roflstomp just by smashing his face into his keyboard)

ThunderCat.8395:

I enjoy facerolling on my new hambow… er excuse me, d/d ele.

(seriously though, its nice to have an ele build that a warrior can’t roflstomp just by smashing his face into his keyboard)

Wars now are stuggling against ele but it worse for all other classes ele is bit to much atm.

Marcos.3690:

You played with cleric? Mate, there’s literally no cleric eles playing competitive pvp. That amulet is nothing but heals, you really lack all the damage.

If you are playing that build you are harming your team.

If you read my original post you would see that I was not hurting for damage. The stat combination for clerics includes power as one of the two secondary stats. Power scales very nicely on eles, and I actually called out some of my numbers. A 4k firegrab from a tank isn’t something to exactly laugh at. The build is definitely not all heals. It doesn’t hit as hard as a full dps person, but the strength runes and the good power scaling on ele combined makes this build work rather well for an upper mid range damage spectrum.

Marcos.3690:

You played with cleric? Mate, there’s literally no cleric eles playing competitive pvp. That amulet is nothing but heals, you really lack all the damage.

If you are playing that build you are harming your team.

Not a single Diamond Skin ele out there? Or did that build change since the last time I checked?

Honeslty those traits and clerics amulet.. its one of the most tanky builds you can make.
It would be stupid if you couldnt heal and survive 1vs1..
If theres something unusual/too strong in there thats the damage and only that.
For the love of god no nerfs in survivability or we ll have a post dhuumfire again for ele.
The class doesnt function without defensive stats and if you nerf the scaling on those it becomes (as already been seen) the “downed state” class

Avead.5760:

Honeslty those traits and clerics amulet.. its one of the most tanky builds you can make.
It would be stupid if you couldnt heal and survive 1vs1..
If theres something unusual/too strong in there thats the damage and only that.
For the love of god no nerfs in survivability or we ll have a post dhuumfire again for ele.
The class doesnt function without defensive stats and if you nerf the scaling on those it becomes (as already been seen) the “downed state” class

I agree to some extent, I think one of the big problems is the damage, but I think the signet is too strong as well. If you take zerk stats, and run 30 into water your signet is healing you for 234 every 1/2 second based on auto attack cast time. That is equivalent to 468 hps as long as you are attacking. That’s higher than what healing signet was doing before it was nerfed. I think the signet does need to be toned down a bit. The nerf to HS on warrior brought them down to a (slightly above) normal state. I think the signet needs to have a similar small tweak.

Rune of Strength is too OP and needs a nerf.

Your Cleric Build would not be too OP without the damage and 25 might stacks from Rune of Strength.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/From-an-Ele-Rune-of-Strength-is-too-strong/first

I tried ZOOSE celestial D/d Ele and felt that for no skill I offered I was able to achieve quite the results in Soloque.

The people above you are are right about strength being the op factor. Ele’s gained from the might stacking even more than other professions, because thats what the bunker ele gets its damage threat from. Tone down strength runes and all you have is the old never die ele that never dies but never does anything else either.

You’re also not talking serious competition in soloq. If you’re thinking builds and posting on the forums, you’re guaranteed to be better than most people out there already, and ele is a high skill cap profession. When you’re better it shows, and that’s exactly how it should be. If you wanna seriously examine a build/profession, go into a 1v1 server and just keep going at it.

Linnael.1069:

The people above you are are right about strength being the op factor. Ele’s gained from the might stacking even more than other professions, because thats what the bunker ele gets its damage threat from. Tone down strength runes and all you have is the old never die ele that never dies but never does anything else either.

I totally agree with you.

Just like a bunker guardian, Cleric Ele without Rune of Strength is fine. Rune of Strength should be nerfed because it’s the root cause of the complains d/d Ele gets. If Ele becomes too weak after that, we can always buff it the right way, for example, making Glyph more useful.

DD Ele is the new faceroll class. I fail to see how a DD Ele could lose against a Hambow. Perma vigor + Shock Aura + Protection on demand + long Stability + teleport, along with evades, a lot of cleanses and insane burst healing.
DD Ele should never lose against a Hambow.

ThunderCat.8395:

(a warrior can’t roflstomp just by smashing his face into his keyboard)

i think we all missed the main point of this post.

I admit it’s a little bit over the top, but new mightstacking warriors are far, far greater problem.

“Not trying to make a thread QQing and asking for insta nerf”

So …., this is an undercover QQ thread . wow ,so smart …

anybody can say " so , i tried engi /ele / pick-a-class " and say they equip a cleric amulet and he was unkillable .

eleshazar.6902:

I agree to some extent, I think one of the big problems is the damage, but I think the signet is too strong as well. If you take zerk stats, and run 30 into water your signet is healing you for 234 every 1/2 second based on auto attack cast time. That is equivalent to 468 hps as long as you are attacking. That’s higher than what healing signet was doing before it was nerfed. I think the signet does need to be toned down a bit. The nerf to HS on warrior brought them down to a (slightly above) normal state. I think the signet needs to have a similar small tweak.

Dagger autoattacks have activation time of 0.5 or 0.75s but their attack speed (activation plus aftercast) is 1s in fire/water, 1.04s in earth and 1.15s in air which makes it much less than 468 hps.

ThunderCat.8395:

seriously though, its nice to have an ele build that a warrior can’t roflstomp just by smashing his face into his keyboard

i play MeleeEle (Stone heart + conjure weapons) and its hilarious having a hammer warrior running away from a little ele with a lightning hammer :P

haviz.1340:

Dagger autoattacks have activation time of 0.5 or 0.75s but their attack speed (activation plus aftercast) is 1s in fire/water, 1.04s in earth and 1.15s in air which makes it much less than 468 hps.

haha, finally someone realized

Ele is fine 1v1 (condi classes are a pain though).

But if your team has any sort of focus the ele will fall over in seconds. This is the big issue and problem with elementalists. In a grp fight it’ll always be targeted first as it has the most to contribute if left alive in terms of heals/damage yet has the lowest hps+defence of all classes, no invisibility, no illusions and few escapes.

The eles best escape is casting FGS and running very far away. Not real helpful to your team on a point.

They do well in solo queue as there is no coordination . All it takes is two people working together to shut down an ele in no time at all. Every other class can weather/avoid much more of a beating whilst maintaining some sort of offense.

Stacking chill/immobilise (which there are ample amounts of in pvp) ruins eles with ease.

phaeris.7604:

Ele is fine 1v1 (condi classes are a pain though).

But if your team has any sort of focus the ele will fall over in seconds. This is the big issue and problem with elementalists. In a grp fight it’ll always be targeted first as it has the most to contribute if left alive in terms of heals/damage yet has the lowest hps+defence of all classes, no invisibility, no illusions and few escapes.

The eles best escape is casting FGS and running very far away. Not real helpful to your team on a point.

They do well in solo queue as there is no coordination . All it takes is two people working together to shut down an ele in no time at all. Every other class can weather/avoid much more of a beating whilst maintaining some sort of offense.

Stacking chill/immobilise (which there are ample amounts of in pvp) ruins eles with ease.

Lol no, Ele, if focused, is far better at handling pressure than a Warrior. Perma vigor, Burning Speed, RTL, Lightning Flash+Protection and mistform are all great escapes. A warrior will NOT last more than 3-5 seconds more than a Ele ON point, but he has no means of disengaging, while Ele has a lot. If the Ele sees that he’s been focused, he can move away easily and only a thief can chase him down (but even then it would take quite a while and if this happens)

Zord.6130:

Lol no, Ele, if focused, is far better at handling pressure than a Warrior. Perma vigor, Burning Speed, RTL, Lightning Flash+Protection and mistform are all great escapes. A warrior will NOT last more than 3-5 seconds more than a Ele ON point, but he has no means of disengaging, while Ele has a lot. If the Ele sees that he’s been focused, he can move away easily and only a thief can chase him down (but even then it would take quite a while and if this happens)

What about endure pain and berserker’s stance coupled with cleansing ire?

Great…another thread where someone tries a new class for a few hours in a 1v1 and starts making large sweeping judgments about it’s strength and validity.

Par for the course in these forums though, I guess.

haviz.1340:

Zord.6130:

Lol no, Ele, if focused, is far better at handling pressure than a Warrior. Perma vigor, Burning Speed, RTL, Lightning Flash+Protection and mistform are all great escapes. A warrior will NOT last more than 3-5 seconds more than a Ele ON point, but he has no means of disengaging, while Ele has a lot. If the Ele sees that he’s been focused, he can move away easily and only a thief can chase him down (but even then it would take quite a while and if this happens)

What about endure pain and berserker’s stance coupled with cleansing ire?

these stances combined with more toughness and vitality make hte hambow really tanky
but eles mobility is much better

and also most of the eles buffs and heals do heal everyone around him

me bunker guard and a d/d friend of mine win 2 v 3s on far quite often .. sure it may be the others who suck

but even if the 3s are strong they need a lot of effort to get gurd + ele down

Zord.6130:

Lol no, Ele, if focused, is far better at handling pressure than a Warrior. Perma vigor, Burning Speed, RTL, Lightning Flash+Protection and mistform are all great escapes. A warrior will NOT last more than 3-5 seconds more than a Ele ON point, but he has no means of disengaging, while Ele has a lot. If the Ele sees that he’s been focused, he can move away easily and only a thief can chase him down (but even then it would take quite a while and if this happens)

So the ele is basically good at getting away from a fight….or running away from a point. So you’ve left the point, and left your teammates. Also about a warrior vs an ele on survivability?…..really?. This is why tpvp team run so few warriors….they fall over so so easily!

D/D ele is fine the way it is now. I really do think it’s balanced perfectly now. And your math’s wrong about the auto attacks. Just saying. It’s not 1/2 seconds per cast. It’s 1 ish. I would say that ele has gone up from lower tier classes to the middle. And testing this with cleric amulet was just kittened. Have you tried to kill a bunker warrior? Bunker guard? I remember 1 v 1ing a bunker warrior with shout heals…It wasn’t even funny. It was like watching paint dry.

Guys… This isn’t a discussion about Warrior vs. Ele. This is a discussion of the emergence of the D/D ele bunker build (not eles in general). The point I’m trying to make is that this build is becoming increasingly common in all formats (every match I was in the last few days had at least 1 d/d ele, and oftentimes more). The fact that they can combine tanky builds with strength runes and be good damage dealers that are very very tanky.

Also for those saying that I’m just picking up a new class and running with it. I don’t really need to justify myself, but I will anyway: I’ve played a lot of matches on ele pre patch running scept/d full zerk build. I have also run a zerk staff build. I’ve played ~500 hours on my ele and it was my second character. I’ve also played a decent amount of pvp have one champ title, and close to a second. I have all classes at level 80 through actually playing them and not just farming EoTM. So let’s try not attacking me personally and just discuss how you feel the d/d ele bunker build with str runes is in the meta right now.

Lettuce.2945:

D/D ele is fine the way it is now. I really do think it’s balanced perfectly now. And your math’s wrong about the auto attacks. Just saying. It’s not 1/2 seconds per cast. It’s 1 ish. I would say that ele has gone up from lower tier classes to the middle. And testing this with cleric amulet was just kittened. Have you tried to kill a bunker warrior? Bunker guard? I remember 1 v 1ing a bunker warrior with shout heals…It wasn’t even funny. It was like watching paint dry.

Yes I killed several bunker warriors with this build. Bunker guard was harder, but was able to do it after spending too much time on him. The thing is if you know what you are doing, and aren’t just pressing buttons you can get 25 stacks of might through combos/strength runes, and can have pretty ridiculous damage for a bunker. That’s the whole point of my post. Either the damage (strength runes) needs to be tweaked, or the bunker aspect of the build needs to be tweaked. And please read the OP. It specifically says why clerics was used. The power in the amulet as a secondary stat makes the damage dealing of an ele (who scales very well with power) still quite formidable.

D/D ele is on the same level as hambow for sure. Less crowd control for more team boons/Heals is the main difference.

Might stacking makes both hambow and D/D ele OP. Yes it’s OP, but it’s only because of how much might they can stack on top of their build. My suggestion would be to nerf might stacking somehow, developers choice because there’s lots of ways to do it.

I know people say nerf strength runes, but the reality is that there’s 2 or 3 other rune sets related to might that are close in in strength to strength runes.

Why do people even consider nerfing the ele itself? Haven’t you learned from what happend last time? Ele is finally viable again and just because it can kill a warrior (OMG!!!!1) it’s broken? What makes a D/D ele OP? Can it heal as much as a guard? Does it have the damage and CC of a warrior? Can it apply condition-burst like a necro? Can it decap and hold points like an engi? Can it disengage from any fight or evade-spam like a thief? Does it have as high toughness/vit as a warrior? Does it have the sustained damage of a ranger? The answer is no, to all of those questions.
Poeple just seem to have forgotten how to play against eles and what’s their weaknesses.

A few words about rune of strength: the 45% might-duration could also nearly be achieved pre-patch with a combination of 3 10% boon-duration-runes (which, to make up for the 15% less might duration, also enhanced the duration of other boons). You could’ve also chosen runesets which enhanced only might-duration by 20% (if i’m not mistaken you could’ve even reached 60% might duration this way) The only thing new is the boosted/fixed? 7% damage (2% more …) and the more frequent procc. Not that much of a difference if you ask me. Also the arcana-traitline isn’t only chosen because of elemental attunement, and evasive arcana … we actively trait for that boon-duration.
20+ Stacks of might were possible pre-patch, even solo in PvP and it has always been an important aspect of ele-playstyle. You maybe had to use more combofinishers to achieve that or spec 10P into fire but it was far from impossible.

Yes Actually Ele does have the sustain of a warrior..
While also being able to chain CCs (built in)
The burst healing of an Ele is Pretty legendary.
Burning bro; the burning will eat you alive.
Yes it can disengage with RTL BS perma Swiftness Vigor, Evadespam.
No It doesnt have high toughness/vit.
Ranger is a b tier class at best.

The OPness of Ele or how it seems only come from this strength runes.
Without it, they would just be the same like the early DD-Eles good supportes, great in outlasting 1vs1 but at all unable to kill somebody in a decent time. The Runes carry a lot.
But its also the same with Wars, Thiefs or others who are able to stack a huge amount of might.
take this kittening runsets with mightdurtion out of pvp and you will see a huge difference. all the dmg nerfs to skills itself were coompletly useless since nowadays u can easily stack up might and getting awsome sigil procs -.-

Know what I find funny? If you just simply go to the description of elementalists on this website or wiki…You’ll see it basically states that Elementalists are jacks of all trades. And they have to spec into specific trait lines to enhance that particular attunement. Is elementalist a jack of all trades now? Yes. Why does Elementalists generally have good sustain? Because a majority of them spec into water (which is condi removal and heals)/arcane. Does this accurately reflect the description of what Elementalist is supposed to be and its role? Yes. Is it balanced? Yes.

The first time in a long time that Ele’s becomes viable, people cry about it because it’s “on par” with ham bow. Well, I’m sorry. But it’s not the elementalist, it’s the rune set. I’ve experimented with other rune sets…And I can say Eles still do fine but not as great as Strength runes. If they spec into water/earth…Then they are MEANT to be bunker set up. Therefore, they have good sustain. Duh much? Jeez.

Before talking about “OP” tell where ele can apply it OPness. Yes d/d ele now is quite well-rounded class wito decent ratings in everything, mobility, defence, damage, support (not without weaknesses however, remember that it doesn’t have any ranged capabilities, very vulnerable to chilling/immobilize/transform and really needs some space and LoS breakers to survive), but what are you going to do with that? We only have team pvp here, what role ele should take? Mid bunker? Guard is infinitely better. Off bunker? Turrets and spirits. Mid fighter? Warrior (actually warrior kinda the same, but in plate and with hilarious amounts of HP). Roamer? Thiefs, mesmers.
Basically there is no place to balanced characters in this game. It feels great, but gw2 pvp is all about abusing and stacking extremes. So if you get killed by ele in duel don’t run on forums to whine, think a bit.
And surely strength runes shouldn’t be nerfed because in that case we will completely fall in condibunker kitten. With turrets, pets and that parrot rune.

Darnis.4056:

Yes Actually Ele does have the sustain of a warrior..
While also being able to chain CCs (built in)
The burst healing of an Ele is Pretty legendary.
Burning bro; the burning will eat you alive.
Yes it can disengage with RTL BS perma Swiftness Vigor, Evadespam.
No It doesnt have high toughness/vit.
Ranger is a b tier class at best.

D/D has 2 CCs with 40s CD and a third that can easily be avoided. Uncomparable to Warrior or engi.
Burst-Healing, yes because we trait into nothing else but heal (5P water, 15P water, 30P water for stats, evasive arcana, 2-3 traits that grant regen), still a guard has way better sustain and also better healing.
Burning can kill you over a very long period of time but I wouldn’t call it condition-burst.
RTL 40s CD when used as evade. Perma-Vigor and Swiftness are nothing unique to the ele. And which evades do we have that can be spammed? Every class has acces to dodges if you meant that.

Some people in the thread are confused.

Ele being viable is what everyone wants. No one wants it’s diversity to be limited to a 0/0/2/6/6 Celestial ammy, strength rune, battle sigil template.

This issue isn’t exclusive to ele though. Similar issues exist for warrior, engi, thief, etc. Might stacking is the main reason this template is top tier.

Any organised team will tear you apart. A mm necro/condi necro will end you. As soon as a chill/immob lands on you an ele falls over.

I’m sure your experience of playing one game with the ele is proof of what you say though, the whole single game.

If all it takes to kill an Ele is a chill/immobilize, then I’d tell that Ele to get better at gw2.

Zord.6130:

If all it takes to kill an Ele is a chill/immobilize, then I’d tell that Ele to get better at gw2.

Agreed, lol. That’s a l2p issue if you think that they fold. I didn’t play just one game either. I played several hours on the build before I made my decision. (And yes I played it in all sPvP formats: Hot Mess, YoloQ and TeamQ).

Zord.6130:

If all it takes to kill an Ele is a chill/immobilize, then I’d tell that Ele to get better at gw2.

Of course it doesn’t kill an ele automatically but it’s the best way to deal with them 1v1. Time a root well (when water attunement is on CD) and the ele can really get into trouble. It has always been a good counter against eles.

phaeris.7604:

So the ele is basically good at getting away from a fight….or running away from a point. So you’ve left the point, and left your teammates. Also about a warrior vs an ele on survivability?…..really?. This is why tpvp team run so few warriors….they fall over so so easily!

not really. he will be back in 5 sec with full health, reset and ready to go. d/d spec is one of the fastest builds to recover and reenter the fight.

The amount of self healing and sustain damage a D/D Ele has is astounding. It even gives my Zerk Evic build a hard time and if I’m not very careful it will own me. Would I call it OP? No, but it is a very solid build and I’m glad to see Eles back in the game.

Everyone asking for a nerf of strength runes does not understand that this runeset is the last thing that keeps pvp from being an all out condition war.

cursE.1794:

Everyone asking for a nerf of strength runes does not understand that this runeset is the last thing that keeps pvp from being an all out condition war.

Then nerf conditions or buff Ele.

Relying on an OP rune set to be viable is not a stable nor wise strategy. It will eventually get nerfed at some point.

Ah it’s refreshing to see discussion on eles once more in here. Havn’t seen this talk since 2012. Too the point, ele d/d is back to its former glory minus the 15 sec Rtl and all catrips being stun breaks. They unnerfed cleansing water and restore signet so eles sustain was regained along with lovely runes of strength which is amazing since ele thrives off power (one of the main reasons why bountiful power got the slight nerf long ago as well). Thing is ele kept getting some minor buffs along the way leading up to this so they are in a better place overall.
We all wanted a power meta and anet delivered with strength runes.
I don’t mind if they make a minor nerf to these but if it’s major or they rework them entirely, we will lose what’s left that’s non condi aids crap. We have never actually had a condi meta and I would like it to stay that way.

Gorni.1764:

Zord.6130:

If all it takes to kill an Ele is a chill/immobilize, then I’d tell that Ele to get better at gw2.

Of course it doesn’t kill an ele automatically but it’s the best way to deal with them 1v1. Time a root well (when water attunement is on CD) and the ele can really get into trouble. It has always been a good counter against eles.

Immobilize is a good counter against anything. However, eles have good ways to survive: their Cantrips are on demand cleanses, Burning Speed is a nice evade and Shocking Aura is godlike when pressured.

d/d ele is fine i think – problem is only we have only 1 gamemode which favours the mechanics form d/d ele = short distance

a big weakness from d/d ele is his short range and would be easy for range classes to kite an d/d ele (ele has only 2 gapclosers- 3 with teleport)

but conquest is all about nodes so no kiting – an mesmer, ranger, shortbow thief or whatever could easy kite an d/d ele and the ele could never hit him

for this it would be nice when the healsig only heal when the Damagespells hit a target

SaintSnow.6593:

Ah it’s refreshing to see discussion on eles once more in here. Havn’t seen this talk since 2012. Too the point, ele d/d is back to its former glory minus the 15 sec Rtl and all catrips being stun breaks. They unnerfed cleansing water and restore signet so eles sustain was regained along with lovely runes of strength which is amazing since ele thrives off power (one of the main reasons why bountiful power got the slight nerf long ago as well). Thing is ele kept getting some minor buffs along the way leading up to this so they are in a better place overall.
We all wanted a power meta and anet delivered with strength runes.
I don’t mind if they make a minor nerf to these but if it’s major or they rework them entirely, we will lose what’s left that’s non condi aids crap. We have never actually had a condi meta and I would like it to stay that way.

I agree, I don’t think anyone wants a condi meta (although arguably that is kind of what we have in mid and low tier matches now). I don’t think, however, that we should rely on power creep to keep the condi meta at bay. Strength runes created a huge power creep for builds that can stack might easily since they went from maintaining a good 12 stacks of might to having constant 25 stacks + 7% increased damage. I think it is most visibly showing on Ele tank builds because of the great power scaling, easily obtained might, and the high healing of sig of rest. I think the damage side of this build would subside a lot without the strength runes, and honestly might be the answer to this problem. And with the unerfed SoR I think that d/d eles are still in a great place.