Guild Wars 2

Sauncho.8076:

Listening to the “State of the Game” discussion, it seems to me that the Developers have good intentions, but that their priorities are off.

In a recent post, Jonathan Sharp said, “I simply feel very passionate about making an E-Sport while also protecting our new players….” In achieving this goal, in his interview he lists his priorities as

1) Matchmaking / Rankings
2) Custom Arenas
3) Leaderboards
4) Spectator Modes
5) Daily / Monthly Tournaments
6) Dueling
7) Stats / Scoring

As a casual gamer, I feel his end goal and priorities are kitten backwards. Isn’t focusing on E-Sport jumping the gun? Don’t we need to establish the basics first? It appears Jonathan’s mentality is that E-Sport will bring players in/back and thus grow the pvp community.

However, shouldn’t the developers focus on catering to the needs of the pvp community by giving regular players (newbs/noobs/casuals/etc.) what they want, which in turn will foster a prosperous pvp community from which you can then turn to E-Sport and tournament play.

I, as a casual, who plays 1-2 hours a night after the kids are asleep, could really care less about high end tournament/E-Sport play. All I want is a game that I can enjoy for the short number of hours I am on. I would venture to guess there are many players like me. We want different game modes, better glory allocation/scoring, in depth stat analysis at the end of the match, dueling in the mists, the ability to show off gear in all parts of the game, etc. You know, the basics. Jonathan mentioned you need to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. I submit to you the things I mention above are part of the crawling phase.

Once the basics are in, people will play (because this is a great game), and naturally progress to tournaments/E-Sport.

Amen.

It is sad but for a game I wanted to play because I LOVE PvP, I’ve lost all interest in playing for PvP. This is because the balance and game modes are based on e-sporting PvP. I don’t care about e-sports, especially e-sports that are built around players that only want to play e-sports.

Think about that.

If that ‘noob’ player that is so often described is not enjoying PvP, then what sort of audience is there for the e-sport. Does it not occur to the development team that if you need to focus on teaching the ‘noob’ how to play PvP properly so they will enjoy it that you are going about building an e-sport the wrong way?

100b is a perfect example. J Sharp did a great job of laughing about how noob the idea was that people thought this skill was OP. Really? Yes, he is right, it is attached to a class that is weak in tPvP, where the game is centered around a group of 5 people on VoIP trying to control points on a map. However, MOST gamers, especially with jobs, day to day do not have time to organize 4 friends to play tPvP and thus are forced to play in some weird 8v8 zerg DM or in WvW. In 8v8 zerg DM where the only point is to gain maximum glory, 100b is immensely powerful. Why? Because life expectancy is usually short in unorganized PvP. Giving a few classes the ability to ‘catch you from behind’ and one-shot players takes life expectancy from short to none-existent, especially if you aren’t one of those classes.

Simply put, building a game from e-sport down to the lowly noobs is a bad idea and personally for myself is causing me to lose a lot of interest in something I usually love, namely PvP.

Now, in contrast, let me say I LOVED the Halloween PvP games, they where fun, they where for players to have fun, they where for players that don’t care about watching kids with 8+ hours a day run 5v5 teams. Current PvP is anything but that.

There’s too little positive feedback in this thread. So here we go:

Thanks for the vid to everybody involved. It was enjoyable and informative. Also thanks to the top players for streaming even though sometimes the number of people watching might not be that big, but for those of us who do, the streams are great.

And to Jonathan Sharp and the dev team: thanks for an awesome game. Keep up the good work ’till we all get an awesome e-sport too! I was getting frustrated with spvp recently, just like a lot of players here on the forums, however this video has addressed many of my concerns. Some remain, but I have faith, that those will be addressed when the time is right. It would be great if we (as a community) got more of these videos (maybe even rather than blog posts), just to feel like we are a part of this grand scheme (even if only as viewers).

AllieMurdock.1785:

As the ArenaNet point of contact for this stream, I’d like to comment on something that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

There were no pre-set questions for this stream. We did have a list of topics that we wanted to make sure to touch on, but this did not include pre-set questions. We did not specify any areas, other than PvE/WvW (for the obvious reason that this interview was geared towards sPvP), which should not be discussed.

This was not a scripted discussion by any means.

What we were hoping to do was answer questions during the live stream that were being asked in the own3D channel. However, due to connection issues, we were not able to do the live stream and therefore did not take questions from the chat.

Anyway, thank you all for taking the time to watch the video and give us feedback. It’s greatly appreciated!

-Allie

you are twisting the truth, people did not complain that there was a list of pre set questions. I called you out that there was a list of taboo questions, that you did not want to answer. And they were all the questions that people really wanted an answer for.

It is not freedom of speech if you obligate people to NOT ask certain questions. I am also pretty sure that you knew what i ment, and that you twisted my post not in good faith.

If it turns out that you misunderstood it, i will apologize, but it just look like a low blow for now.

Pls, do not try to twist what people say, it is not elegant or just.

ops double post

I’m suprised as to how easy all you guys went on Jon …

I mean it’s understandable from Xephs point considering the strong love-youbalancethisandwetelleveryoneitsagreatgame-love relation TP and the ANet devs have
but i would have expected a somewhat more critical & realistic approach from the other guys …

then again i’d probably just have yelled and ranted on for about 30mins so i guess it’s a good thing they tucked it in and went goodguygreg.mode

Anshard.3489:

Sauncho.8076:

Listening to the “State of the Game” discussion, it seems to me that the Developers have good intentions, but that their priorities are off.

In a recent post, Jonathan Sharp said, “I simply feel very passionate about making an E-Sport while also protecting our new players….” In achieving this goal, in his interview he lists his priorities as

1) Matchmaking / Rankings
2) Custom Arenas
3) Leaderboards
4) Spectator Modes
5) Daily / Monthly Tournaments
6) Dueling
7) Stats / Scoring

As a casual gamer, I feel his end goal and priorities are kitten backwards. Isn’t focusing on E-Sport jumping the gun? Don’t we need to establish the basics first? It appears Jonathan’s mentality is that E-Sport will bring players in/back and thus grow the pvp community.

However, shouldn’t the developers focus on catering to the needs of the pvp community by giving regular players (newbs/noobs/casuals/etc.) what they want, which in turn will foster a prosperous pvp community from which you can then turn to E-Sport and tournament play.

I, as a casual, who plays 1-2 hours a night after the kids are asleep, could really care less about high end tournament/E-Sport play. All I want is a game that I can enjoy for the short number of hours I am on. I would venture to guess there are many players like me. We want different game modes, better glory allocation/scoring, in depth stat analysis at the end of the match, dueling in the mists, the ability to show off gear in all parts of the game, etc. You know, the basics. Jonathan mentioned you need to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. I submit to you the things I mention above are part of the crawling phase.

Once the basics are in, people will play (because this is a great game), and naturally progress to tournaments/E-Sport.

Amen.

It is sad but for a game I wanted to play because I LOVE PvP, I’ve lost all interest in playing for PvP. This is because the balance and game modes are based on e-sporting PvP. I don’t care about e-sports, especially e-sports that are built around players that only want to play e-sports.

Think about that.

If that ‘noob’ player that is so often described is not enjoying PvP, then what sort of audience is there for the e-sport. Does it not occur to the development team that if you need to focus on teaching the ‘noob’ how to play PvP properly so they will enjoy it that you are going about building an e-sport the wrong way?

100b is a perfect example. J Sharp did a great job of laughing about how noob the idea was that people thought this skill was OP. Really? Yes, he is right, it is attached to a class that is weak in tPvP, where the game is centered around a group of 5 people on VoIP trying to control points on a map. However, MOST gamers, especially with jobs, day to day do not have time to organize 4 friends to play tPvP and thus are forced to play in some weird 8v8 zerg DM or in WvW. In 8v8 zerg DM where the only point is to gain maximum glory, 100b is immensely powerful. Why? Because life expectancy is usually short in unorganized PvP. Giving a few classes the ability to ‘catch you from behind’ and one-shot players takes life expectancy from short to none-existent, especially if you aren’t one of those classes.

Simply put, building a game from e-sport down to the lowly noobs is a bad idea and personally for myself is causing me to lose a lot of interest in something I usually love, namely PvP.

Now, in contrast, let me say I LOVED the Halloween PvP games, they where fun, they where for players to have fun, they where for players that don’t care about watching kids with 8+ hours a day run 5v5 teams. Current PvP is anything but that.

Just wanted to say I think the same way as a casual gamer myself, both of you made good points.

Ace of Spades.6325:

AllieMurdock.1785:

As the ArenaNet point of contact for this stream, I’d like to comment on something that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

There were no pre-set questions for this stream. We did have a list of topics that we wanted to make sure to touch on, but this did not include pre-set questions. We did not specify any areas, other than PvE/WvW (for the obvious reason that this interview was geared towards sPvP), which should not be discussed.

This was not a scripted discussion by any means.

What we were hoping to do was answer questions during the live stream that were being asked in the own3D channel. However, due to connection issues, we were not able to do the live stream and therefore did not take questions from the chat.

Anyway, thank you all for taking the time to watch the video and give us feedback. It’s greatly appreciated!

-Allie

you are twisting the truth, people did not complain that there was a list of pre set questions. I called you out that there was a list of taboo questions, that you did not want to answer. And they were all the questions that people really wanted an answer for.

It is not freedom of speech if you obligate people to NOT ask certain questions. I am also pretty sure that you knew what i ment, and that you twisted my post not in good faith.

If it turns out that you misunderstood it, i will apologize, but it just look like a low blow for now.

Pls, do not try to twist what people say, it is not elegant or just.

You seem like an angry person. I’m glad you have this location to vent as opposed to the rest of the world.

I wouldn’t go outside either if I was you, I hear there are people out there that don’t think your opinion is worth their day being ruin… also, clearly everyone is also plotting against you in a sinister conspiracy that, luckily, you are brilliant enough to see right through.

Still, no reason to risk it, just stay at home and try your best to ruin Jonathan’s day… his job is disproportionately better than mine without your efforts =).

Cheers.

Ace of Spades.6325:

JonathanSharp.7094:

FluffyDoe.7539:

I have a question here; How come Mr.Sharp was so eased on saying “we need to do a better job communicating with the players”, but he has yet to agree with the fact that having ranking/matchmaking at launch would have made the ‘state of the game’ much better than where it’s at now?

I spoke of this on Friday, but let me reiterate.

We could have had rankings, but without tournaments or a way to get teams playing against each other in an organized fashion, they would have ranked…..nothing. Just the pub play matches. That’s why we wanted to set down a framework first, then add in the custom arenas (for practicing/developing organized matches) and rankings. Having rankings without tourneys or a matchmaking system literally wouldn’t do anything…you would just have rankings based on random pub matches where teams would be anything from 1-8 players. Seems bad to me. That’s why we made that decision.

Does that make sense?

J

No, fake. Instead of making the tournaments system, you had the time to make a simple 5v5 ranked, and a solo q ranked.

You are in denial, the whole tournament system was a bad idea, and people told you that before the bwe1, only recently you realized how important was the ranked system, that’s why you changed your priorities, that’s why we don’t have the private servers, because you are now working on rankeds.

A simple elo system with a soloq, and a q for premades was much easier to code, don’t even try to sell us the story that we could’ve rankeds but with nothing else.

You wanted to be different for the sake of being different, and it backfired.

i dont like this guy’s tone, but i fully agree. now we’re in the coulda shoulda woulda stage. we should have done a simple 5v5 ranked, and ranked soloq. people would have been happier for longer.

but it’s ok, you guys see it now and youre working on it.

Pray.9751:

I’m suprised as to how easy all you guys went on Jon …

I mean it’s understandable from Xephs point considering the strong love-youbalancethisandwetelleveryoneitsagreatgame-love relation TP and the ANet devs have
but i would have expected a somewhat more critical & realistic approach from the other guys …

then again i’d probably just have yelled and ranted on for about 30mins so i guess it’s a good thing they tucked it in and went goodguygreg.mode

QFT

48:00 (The last 4 minutes of the show)
“Hey Chap the mists are empty and we have long queue times, aern’t you worried about this?”

Varee – Nah everything is fine, I see more and more teams everyday…I like that we only play the same few teams during prime time the system is fine.

Chap – We’ve got a list, Sorry I can’t go into too much detail…overall numbers look fine, 1 or 2 servers have people traveling to Lions Arch.

Ok, I paraphrased. But come on, state of the game? More like State of the Same tired promises we have been hearing since launch, and outright denial that there is anything wrong.

I will say that Xeph and Lowell do at least seem to be living in the same reality as the rest of us.

felivear.1536:

I mean flourishing. And of course the numbers increased, the reason they went F2P is because the numbers were darn near dead. So, going from 30,000 players to 43,000 players is definitely more players, but still a dead game.

It’s nice that you’re pulling numbers completely out of thin air. Turbine added a million new player accounts when they went F2P along with 20% player returns to LOTORO in their first month of switching. I’d call that flourishing.

Let me say that I do agree that the majority of people who stop playing probably won’t return, because they likely did not like the game as opposed to getting bored of it, being annoyed with features lacking, or bugs.

I like hearing someone playing a thief complaining about mist form (or vapor or w/e the downed version is called). That was pretty funny.

I’m a casual gamer now. But i played a lot of game competitively and i look forward to play GW2 competitive as well, but i haven’t found a group to play with yet since my old peeps don’t have much gaming time and/or are bored with current GW2.

I’m just surprised they haven’t talked about Air sigils/runes, which in my opinion getting random crits of 7k regularly is clearly off the balance. And when i heard Jon saying that they rather not do big changes, but small ones in order to work the balance i do agree.. except perhaps for one class. Which is ranger.. really they must do heavy changes in order to make them viable in meta, or else we won’t be seeing rangers in meta tPvP in a long time still. Which makes me giggle a little bit inside when he says Anet is having trouble in getting Warriors to be useful in tPvP (even though his statement is actually true… but what that makes of rangers then?).

the ranger “thing” is a whole issue that im choosing to ignore for the time being. on the inside, im hoping there’s some major revamps for ranger trees for the 14th. the prof is just so far from viable in tpvp that i cant see small changes making any difference.

When I was talking about pre-set questions (http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/904-guru-state-of-the-game-stream-featuring-arenanet-developer-jonathan-sharp/), is what I was talking about, you can see the topics there clearly outlined two weeks before we even talked about them.
What people need to understand is, this is an interview and we can’t just go in and wing it. There needs to be some sort of order, otherwise it would be chaos with 7 people trying to get each their points across.

Anyways for me personally I just would like to thank Arenanet, for the opportunity and I think that personally speaking I have renewed hope for the game after the talks.

Hopefully there will be more talks in the future, that will answer everyones questions.

Xeph.4513
you did well, and thanks to you (well, mainly the question you have asked) i still have my guild. Im 2 people less, but with new hope, we have some new members too.. so

time to practice again. And hopefully soon i will be in PAID once again..

Ace of Spades.6325:

you are twisting the truth, people did not complain that there was a list of pre set questions. I called you out that there was a list of taboo questions, that you did not want to answer. And they were all the questions that people really wanted an answer for.

Tbh there’s really no point asking a question that won’t get an answer.

I think you misunderstood the intention of the “interview”

This was not a journalistic piece, where the interviewer would legitimely try to catch the other part en fault, ask itchy questions and so on, this wasn’t the New York times interviewing Mr. President, this wasn’t La Repubblica giving a shot at Mr. B.

This was an extension of Anet communication. We got way more infos in this piece than in any other blog post, and we got a “feel” of how the balance/develop team works, and i applaud the effort of the parties involved, and the balls Johnathan had by showing up at something that could well make it a scapegoat to the community.

I don’t think it’s legit to ask more than this. There’s no way in the world Anet would discuss something they’re not ready to have a talk about, either because they didn’t make up their mind about it yet, or because if they did their plan is in a too early development stage. And acting otherwise on their part would be completely useless as well, and actually counterproductive, either raising false hopes or absurd rages and QQs about something that ain’t even set or planned yet.

If you want answers about the unasked questions about the taboos, you actually have them. They’re a simple implicit “no comment”, which can be read as “we don’t have a plan for it yet” or “we do have a plan but it’s too subject to change to be discussed”.

Ace of Spades.6325:

you are twisting the truth, people did not complain that there was a list of pre set questions. I called you out that there was a list of taboo questions, that you did not want to answer. And they were all the questions that people really wanted an answer for.

It is not freedom of speech if you obligate people to NOT ask certain questions. I am also pretty sure that you knew what i ment, and that you twisted my post not in good faith.

If it turns out that you misunderstood it, i will apologize, but it just look like a low blow for now.

Pls, do not try to twist what people say, it is not elegant or just.

I am sorry to inform you that we did not have “a list of taboo questions”.

We had a list of topics that we would like to discuss that was announced with the event 2 weeks prior. This list was created together with all the participating players on the stream and it had no restrictions set to it before or after.

I can also inform you that this interview was not edited, scripted or directed beyond what you see in the actual video. This was a genuine discussion covering all the topics that we (Guru) and the players found relevant.

I sense that the players in this thread are left with a feeling that this was scripted or that we did not ask any important questions due to limitations? I can only inform you that this is NOT true and that we should really be giving ArenaNet a lot more credit for participating in this discussion practically coming of the street saying “throw us the ball and we will play it” with no limitations. Not only is this extremely rare in any game company but it is extremely motivating for the players and for us who work with management of things like this.

If you feel that there was a specific question that we did not ask that we should have then my only suggestion to you is to participate more in events like this. We asked a big part of the questions that was posted on the announcement thread and I would say we got a lot of new and important answers.

Thank you ArenaNet!

The early release of the game really hit hard the whole sPvP/e-sport project. Gw2 basically shipped with just the very very basics to be playable in PvP.

As to why Anet did that… well, it’s almost impossible for any outsider to fully understand the constraints they had to cope with for a massive project in the likes of Gw2 (read investment, contracts, profitability…)

Only time will tell if they were right to rush the release and if they’ll enjoy the luxury to take time to get the game where they want it to be.

In regards with the show, I think it was very insightful and great to have such knowledgeable people freely discuss together. I just feel one question could have been asked, a very simple one, but one that could answer so much :

Right now, is the game played like it was meant to be played ?

When the devs designed the combat system, they must have had some kind of vision on how the game should play from top level to low level. Well, how does reality fare now the game is 3 month old and players are really starting to get a good grip on it ? Are they happy with the way players are mastering the gameplay ? Or is the result a bit different from the kind of PvP they envisioned ?

When the top teams started, they must have dreamt about a gameplay that was deep, exciting and fun. Now they reached the “current top”, did they find what they were looking for ? Are they happy with the core gameplay as it is ?

All the other features – ladder, matchmaking, better queuing, spectator mode, private servers…- are, well… just features. The main concern about the game is probably the core gameplay experience.

So if the game is played as it’s meant to be, and it’s “just” a matter of better balance and adding features, then the future looks reasonably bright for gw2.

But if the devs and players realize the core gameplay experience falls short of their expectactions, well… things are a bit more serious then.

Hi guys!

After reading through the entire thread, I’d like to apologize.

We did not manage to give the community everything they wanted, we were not able to discuss at least 50% of the most important topics and I for one was “too soft” (I think I let people talk over me 1920182920292 times).

The big thing is that there were a lot of people and very little time so a lot of things had to be delayed until the next discussion, not because we wanted to, not because Chap couldn’t answer X or Y question, but because we had no other choice. We lost ~1h worth of discussion due to technical issues (and I know Frozire still has nightmares about it). During that 1h, a lot of topics could have been talked about. (now it sounds like I’m making excuses QQ)

tl;dr: yes a lot of topics weren’t talked about, but remember that there were 7 people involved and less than 1h to talk because of technical issues. Sorry.

As for the development of the game as an e-sport etc, I think feb/march for observer mode (and monthlies following soon after?) is actually fast enough. If marketed well, the first big LAN could very well be mid 2013 since LANs such as Dreamhack are open to many new games Arena Net would just have to play its cards well. That’d make ~10months before a first event, which is actually a good result for a new game. The mistake was to market it as an e-sport before release, nothing else (then again, I’m almost sure they were told to release it, I don’t think the game would have shipped before October/November otherwise).

tl;dr2: good things are comming at a good pace. The mistake was marketing the game as an e-sport pre-release, nothing else.

Once again, I’m sorry we weren’t able to deliver.

Lowellollipop.5817:

Hi guys!

After reading through the entire thread, I’d like to apologize.

We did not manage to give the community everything they wanted, we were not able to discuss at least 50% of the most important topics and I for one was “too soft” (I think I let people talk over me 1920182920292 times).

The big thing is that there were a lot of people and very little time so a lot of things had to be delayed until the next discussion, not because we wanted to, not because Chap couldn’t answer X or Y question, but because we had no other choice. We lost ~1h worth of discussion due to technical issues (and I know Frozire still has nightmares about it). During that 1h, a lot of topics could have been talked about. (now it sounds like I’m making excuses QQ)

tl;dr: yes a lot of topics weren’t talked about, but remember that there were 7 people involved and less than 1h to talk because of technical issues. Sorry.

As for the development of the game as an e-sport etc, I think feb/march for observer mode (and monthlies following soon after?) is actually fast enough. If marketed well, the first big LAN could very well be mid 2013 since LANs such as Dreamhack are open to many new games Arena Net would just have to play its cards well. That’d make ~10months before a first event, which is actually a good result for a new game. The mistake was to market it as an e-sport before release, nothing else (then again, I’m almost sure they were told to release it, I don’t think the game would have shipped before October/November otherwise).

tl;dr2: good things are comming at a good pace. The mistake was marketing the game as an e-sport pre-release, nothing else.

Once again, I’m sorry we weren’t able to deliver.

All things considered you guys did a great job (given the circumstance and expectations from the community). For the most part, hopefully everyone understands it was the beginning of more communication coming our way regarding pvp.

Though I do think the true frustration comes in, from a casual perspective (and it was a point that J. Sharp touched on) was that there is a line between competitive play and casual play. There are “huge” issues with casual play that people are worried won’t make it into the conversation, because obviously you guys play the game differently in competitive arenas.

5 v 5 is the sweet spot for this game (initially I would have disagreed) and there are things, even from the casual side, that could be implemented to improve that gaming experience.

Pyrial.2917:

Though I do think the true frustration comes in, from a casual perspective (and it was a point that J. Sharp touched on) was that there is a line between competitive play and casual play. There are “huge” issues with casual play that people are worried won’t make it into the conversation, because obviously you guys play the game differently in competitive arenas.

5 v 5 is the sweet spot for this game (initially I would have disagreed) and there are things, even from the casual side, that could be implemented to improve that gaming experience.

I can not talk for everyone who was involved, but I see things differently. The game needs to be balanced and designed mostly around casual players, not around competitive teams. Of course, some things that most players consider completly broken can not be nerfed to oblivion because they’d be totally unplayable in top-tier play (we can do an easy analogy with champs such as Tryndamere on League of Legends), but design needs to mostly be made for casuals.

Everyone in the discussion or in any “top team” has the pretention to stay at the top, whatever it implies. Therefore, the concerns that need to be voiced the most are casual PvPers’ concerns because they are the core of any game that wants to make it to e-sport level, whatever the result is competitive teams will adapt it’s not a problem. That’s why most of the discussion was supposed to revolve around answering chat questions from the stream, the problem is that there was no stream due to technical difficulties

Lowellollipop.5817:

Pyrial.2917:

Though I do think the true frustration comes in, from a casual perspective (and it was a point that J. Sharp touched on) was that there is a line between competitive play and casual play. There are “huge” issues with casual play that people are worried won’t make it into the conversation, because obviously you guys play the game differently in competitive arenas.

5 v 5 is the sweet spot for this game (initially I would have disagreed) and there are things, even from the casual side, that could be implemented to improve that gaming experience.

I can not talk for everyone who was involved, but I see things differently. The game needs to be balanced and designed mostly around casual players, not around competitive teams. Of course, some things that most players consider completly broken can not be nerfed to oblivion because they’d be totally unplayable in top-tier play (we can do an easy analogy with champs such as Tryndamere on League of Legends), but design needs to mostly be made for casuals.

Everyone in the discussion or in any “top team” has the pretention to stay at the top, whatever it implies. Therefore, the concerns that need to be voiced the most are casual PvPers’ concerns because they are the core of any game that wants to make it to e-sport level, whatever the result is competitive teams will adapt it’s not a problem. That’s why most of the discussion was supposed to revolve around answering chat questions from the stream, the problem is that there was no stream due to technical difficulties

It would be interesting to see, from the panel of players, what you guys think are balance issues that mirror those from the forums and ones that do not and why.

One issue would be the counter play, or lack there of, with some of the burst specs.

Pyrial.2917:

It would be interesting to see, from the panel of players, what you guys think are balance issues that mirror those from the forums and ones that do not and why.

One issue would be the counter play, or lack there of, with some of the burst specs.

I agree that it would be interesting!

In my opinion, both parts would agree on most things, but they would describe them in different ways.

Please, allow me to use the Thief profession as an example since it is the one I’m the most comfortable with.

Most casual players would say:

- Backstab is overpowered, it needs to be nerfed

Here’s what I would say:

- Backstab is fine;
- “Mug” (trait III in Deadly Arts) is too strong for a T1, numbers should be tuned down or the trait should be a T3;
- There are too many % damage multipliers % crit multipliers traits in T1-2 and stacking them makes the damage on Mug, Backstab, Heartseeker and possibly auto-attack spam over the top;
- There are 2 long sources of fury accessible in T1 traits, which -could- be too strong, Precision being the biggest damage increase stat in the game after X power is attained (I don’t remember the numbers, would have to ask my math bro Akin);
- Shadow Arts traitline is overshadowed (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?) by the aformentioned low tier trait combinations even for a D/D build and, even if you don’t want to combine those low tier traits, acrobatics is simply superior in 90% situations for utility/survivability/teamfight sustain;
- Heartseeker is overpowered, 450 range, 3 ini, ridiculous damage even at 50%

Lowellollipop.5817:

I can not talk for everyone who was involved, but I see things differently. The game needs to be balanced and designed mostly around casual players, not around competitive teams. Of course, some things that most players consider completly broken can not be nerfed to oblivion because they’d be totally unplayable in top-tier play (we can do an easy analogy with champs such as Tryndamere on League of Legends), but design needs to mostly be made for casuals.

This quote is exactly what I was talking about and is the complete wrong way to go about designing PvP. E-sport and top-tier teams play off the meta, whatever it may be. THIS is the feeling that comes across most readily, THIS is what I mean. A game balanced around 5v5 point control with pre-mades destroys casual PvP.

EDIT: Btw, I realize I might not of been clear, but the feeling I am talking about is on one side the quote talks a lot about casual play focus but then on the other it clearly states that while casuals may agree something is OP, sorry, that would affect top tier play too much, so we can’t change it. That feeling dominates casual PvP.

Let’s stop using LoL, which isn’t even a MMORPG (just DotA remade), and let’s use OTHER MMORPGs as example. Let’s say WoW (big surprise). There was a kitten backwards system of balanced PvP, especially when it came to tPvP (Warrior/Rogue seeks Druid, anybody?). However, at the time it didn’t matter because as we all know WoW was the casual players bastion of silliness and tons of players foolishly capturing the flag, capturing points, etc. in a roughly balanced DM style of PvP. This system kept interest in PvP long enough to balance the tPvP, and even while that occurred tPvP used what was available and it functioned.

Top Tiered teams make due with whats available, casual players play what they prefer.

This is why all top teams lean towards specific configurations, because top tiered players will play what wins them the match, not there personal preference. Thus, to directly poke at the quote above, it does not matter if something would be completely unplayable in top-tiered play if nerfed because there are already classes like that and top tiered players just… ignore them.

So, yes, things that break casual play can be nerfed because top-tiered play will not care about a class being weak, they care about a class being too strong, and even then in so much as it might make the game stale.

I would hope the designers understand this and with all of the rhetoric about concern towards casual players, see that classes that may have one or two STRONG functions in an organized 5v5 team trying to control points, have WEAK functionality in chaotic solo play.

Honestly, just read through the forums in sPvP. See the posts where casuals and pros argue balance. It’s like two groups arguing the same game from two different worlds.
Casual – “In a fight, this class sucks.”
Pro – “No it doesn’t, use these abilities and OMG.”
Casual – “Those abilities don’t do anything, a Warrior just hops out and 100b’s me.”
Pro – “A Warrior is easy to shut down, just snare him.”
Casual – “With WHAT? The spec you gave has no utility left for that.”
Pro – “Of course it doesn’t, Warriors are rarely played anymore because other classes will just condition them down.”
Casual – “Rarely played? I see at least 3-4 a round!”
Pro – “Then L2P.”
Casual – “How? The spec you say makes the class viable is insta-gibbed by burst DPS and the spec that can handle burst DPS will make me weak against most everyone else.”
Pro – “Well, ya, exactly… Ok, let’s be honest, that class sucks, but if you spec this way, gear out this way, and have your team cover your kitten, then OMG, it can be powerful!”
Casual – “So by L2P you mean go recruit 4 players.”
Pro – “Ya, basically.”

Anshard.3489:

Thus, to directly poke at the quote above, it does not matter if something would be completely unplayable in top-tiered play if nerfed because there are already classes like that and top tiered players just… ignore them.

From my understanding, that is not good design. In a game with so many team-comp possibilities and different possible builds for each of the 8 professions having professions that have 0 or even only 1 playable build even in a gimmicky composition built around them at top tier level is not what Anet wants. (then again, I do live in a world full of fairies and fluffy animals)

As for different points of view on balance from casual players and hardcore tPvP players, please read the post I made just above yours. The opinions on what is broken and what is not are most of the time the same, but they are worded differently and hardcore players tend to mention why a specific, gimmicky build is played over a ton of other possibilites (which is most of the time a traitline or utilities being vastly inferior to the others)

(and unfortunately, 8v8 and 5v5 really are different games, mixing them was bad )

Lowellollipop.5817:

From my understanding, that is not good design. In a game with so many team-comp possibilities and different possible builds for each of the 8 professions having professions that have 0 or even only 1 playable build even in a gimmicky composition built around them at top tier level is not what Anet wants.

As for different points of view on balance from casual players and hardcore tPvP players, please read the post I made just above yours. The opinions on what is broken and what is not are most of the time the same, but they are worded differently and hardcore players tend to mention why a specific, gimmicky build is played over a ton of other possibilites (which is most of the time a traitline or utilities being vastly inferior to the others)

(and unfortunately, 8v8 and 5v5 really are different games, mixing them was bad )

While I understand what you mean by ‘not good design’, the truth is that is a reality. I’ve been competitively gaming for over 20 years and I can easily say that no matter how hard a game designer tries, top tiered competition will always be dominated by a select few meta-game strategies. Those strategies will be tweaked by game designers the next year and after that a select few new strategies will be created, and so on and so forth.

Ironically this is true in GW2 currently as was openly discussed. The major point is that the casual player is lost in all the focus on top-tiered play.

As for ‘most of the time casuals and hardcore agree on whats broken’ I very much disagree as the posts on the forums, and the players leaving PvP, would, in my opinion, suggest otherwise. However, that is my opinion, so if we disagree, that is ok.

lol, I will say we definitely agree that mixing 5v5 and 8v8 was bad and they play very differently.

Lowellollipop.5817:

Hi guys!

After reading through the entire thread, I’d like to apologize.

We did not manage to give the community everything they wanted, we were not able to discuss at least 50% of the most important topics and I for one was “too soft” (I think I let people talk over me 1920182920292 times).

The big thing is that there were a lot of people and very little time so a lot of things had to be delayed until the next discussion, not because we wanted to, not because Chap couldn’t answer X or Y question, but because we had no other choice. We lost ~1h worth of discussion due to technical issues (and I know Frozire still has nightmares about it). During that 1h, a lot of topics could have been talked about. (now it sounds like I’m making excuses QQ)

tl;dr: yes a lot of topics weren’t talked about, but remember that there were 7 people involved and less than 1h to talk because of technical issues. Sorry.

As for the development of the game as an e-sport etc, I think feb/march for observer mode (and monthlies following soon after?) is actually fast enough. If marketed well, the first big LAN could very well be mid 2013 since LANs such as Dreamhack are open to many new games Arena Net would just have to play its cards well. That’d make ~10months before a first event, which is actually a good result for a new game. The mistake was to market it as an e-sport before release, nothing else (then again, I’m almost sure they were told to release it, I don’t think the game would have shipped before October/November otherwise).

tl;dr2: good things are comming at a good pace. The mistake was marketing the game as an e-sport pre-release, nothing else.

Once again, I’m sorry we weren’t able to deliver.

I get technical difficulties, but if 7 people make it impossible to actually discuss the important issues then why have that many in the first place? It comes across as a PR stunt… is Guru afraid of alienating teams or something?

Also please cut down on the endless balance discussions that go nowhere. The problem with players trying to balance a game is that when they win its a LTP issue, when the lose it a skill X is OP issue.

Hardcore players may be in a better position to see when something is breaking the game simply because they have a lot of hours logged and have been exposed to many different situations. They still however do not have access to the numbers under the hood or the aggregate data that is derived from hundreds of people playing.

Also, I think your timeline is overly optimistic to put it lightly. Observer mode wasn’t even mentioned, and there still needs to be private servers, and a stats scoring system which has been pushed behind rating and MMR. There is no way this will all be in in the next 2 months based on the ‘release it when its done’ philosophy.

And where in all this do players get pulled back into the game, form up teams, and have a chance to learn how to compete?

Based on the present population and stream viewership they might as well just write the podcast members a cheque now since they will be the only people who show up.

Fantom.9217:

Been waiting for those since the first or second Beta Weekend.

Don’t hold your breath. ArenaNet has lost their opportunity to create a competitive PVP game in my opinion.

No one is going to come back to a game that they haven’t played in a year because features that should have been implemented at launch are FINALLY in place.

ArenaNet dropped the ball HARD with GW2. Shouldn’t have launched in August. Hell, if this is the pace that PVP features are being developed at, I’m not sure if GW2 should have been launched until 2013!

I don’t want to hear about how you can’t just throw more people at a problem, PVP in this game was (and continues to be) a CODE RED emergency. Once PVE was done (or at least in the state that it was on August 25th), EVERY SINGLE programmer, artist, and designer at ArenaNet needed to drop what they were doing and work on PVP.

There were (and are) no systems in place that they needed to learn, because we don’t have ladders, we don’t have matchmaking, we don’t have spectator mode, we don’t have private servers, we don’t have multiple game modes! They would have been starting from scratch, and any programmer worth his paycheck should have been able to help.

Then the game should have been launched in October or November, WITH core PVP features ALREADY implemented.

Seriously, what’s the point of even working on PVP features now if you don’t even have enough players to field one tournament at a time, let alone matchmaking that would sort teams by skill?

Sorry, ArenaNet. I was a huge fan, and I stuck with you for a LOT longer than I should have. But we have to move on, the PVP community can’t wait forever. And there are plenty of other games out there that are ACTUALLY COMPLETE. Competitive PVP players don’t just play MMOs, your competition had such a head start that slow as molasses development like this is SUICIDE.

Bye.

You are wrong. LoL is the perfect counter example to everything you said.

I think balancing is actually not really the root of GW2’s problems.

Dota2 & SC2 are both very successfull e-sport titles that handle balancing fundamentally different. While Blizzard is balancing exclusively around the super-pro scene, Icefrog pretty much ignored a lot of top-tier balancing issues for years.

The problem is imo not that GW2 isn’t balanced well enough (i think for a mmo the balance is pretty good actually) but rather that no one from ANet ever thought about actually making the pvp fun to play & how you actively hold existing players, get new players involved into pvp and how you provide an environment featuring a continous and enjoyable learning curve for players of all skill levels.

Jon’s explanation as to why rating hasn’t been implemented shows the fundamental lack of foresight from the people in charge.

Can’t you guys just wait and see what happens within 2-3 months? You guys want everything so freaking fast ignoring the fact you know good and well haste makes waste.

We know Beta is just testing grounds and this game was release not too long ago and it haven’t been a year yet. Just calm down for a while instead getting all hype up saying this game already dead, pvp is not competitive etc etc. This isn’t kindergarten guys you know good and well this game is still fresh and it’ll improve later on by taking small steps instead of large steps. If they take large steps then everything will go extremely unbalance than it is now.

Brutalistik.6473:

Can’t you guys just wait and see what happens within 2-3 months? You guys want everything so freaking fast ignoring the fact you know good and well haste makes waste.

We know Beta is just testing grounds and this game was release not too long ago and it haven’t been a year yet. Just calm down for a while instead getting all hype up saying this game already dead, pvp is not competitive etc etc. This isn’t kindergarten guys you know good and well this game is still fresh and it’ll improve later on by taking small steps instead of large steps. If they take large steps then everything will go extremely unbalance than it is now.

Unfortunately games are not given this luxury anymore. Being that we are discussing pvp, we need other players to play against (casually or competitively). The game is hemorrhaging players with (as I see it) no real plan on attracting them back.

Wait and see? That is what beta should have been for. Currently I’m 1 of 2 people still left from a pool of 33 that left WoW and Rift to come over. There is no way for me to help draw them back into this game.

Why do not they give us 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 ques?
And why do they not allow for single match-ups instead of tourneys? (5v5 and lower)
Both would improve very significantly user enjoyment.

This is supposed to be a game, not work. I do not want ANY obligation when I play games. I want to be able to jump in and out of the game whenever it pleases me without affecting other people’s playing experience in a negative manner. I do not want to be tied for 30 minutes to complete a tourney because team is going to be forced to play with 4 if I leave.
I also dislike to wait for other people to enjoy the game.

Most of all, I like to solo more than to play team games. This is not because I dislike team play but rather because making a good team involves lots of WORK. There are so many class synergies and map strategies to be explored. You have to find serious people who know how to play. And then even when you do all that work you come back to having OBLIGATION to be there, practice, play with them etc. I want none of that crap.

This simply makes no sense. I like the game, but game experience is significantly worse due to absence of mentioned features.

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Can’t you guys just wait and see what happens within 2-3 months? You guys want everything so freaking fast ignoring the fact you know good and well haste makes waste.

We know Beta is just testing grounds and this game was release not too long ago and it haven’t been a year yet. Just calm down for a while instead getting all hype up saying this game already dead, pvp is not competitive etc etc. This isn’t kindergarten guys you know good and well this game is still fresh and it’ll improve later on by taking small steps instead of large steps. If they take large steps then everything will go extremely unbalance than it is now.

Unfortunately games are not given this luxury anymore. Being that we are discussing pvp, we need other players to play against (casually or competitively). The game is hemorrhaging players with (as I see it) no real plan on attracting them back.

Wait and see? That is what beta should have been for. Currently I’m 1 of 2 people still left from a pool of 33 that left WoW and Rift to come over. There is no way for me to help draw them back into this game.

That’s a spoiled brat mentality and you know that. You say it should of been done in beta? Beta is what got the game flowing in the first place because it would suck it the game kept crashing every minute you try to go somewhere. That’s why beta is testing ground just to get the game flowing to get as much bugs out as possible. When the game was release to play for all that’s where the challenge starts and see how far the game can go.

Also for the part where you say players won’t come back. They will come back because one this game has no subscription and they would like to see what have come of the game from when they played it last time. For instance they took a year off so you know a lot has change and they might get hook right back into the game in no time.

Brutalistik.6473:

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Can’t you guys just wait and see what happens within 2-3 months? You guys want everything so freaking fast ignoring the fact you know good and well haste makes waste.

We know Beta is just testing grounds and this game was release not too long ago and it haven’t been a year yet. Just calm down for a while instead getting all hype up saying this game already dead, pvp is not competitive etc etc. This isn’t kindergarten guys you know good and well this game is still fresh and it’ll improve later on by taking small steps instead of large steps. If they take large steps then everything will go extremely unbalance than it is now.

Unfortunately games are not given this luxury anymore. Being that we are discussing pvp, we need other players to play against (casually or competitively). The game is hemorrhaging players with (as I see it) no real plan on attracting them back.

Wait and see? That is what beta should have been for. Currently I’m 1 of 2 people still left from a pool of 33 that left WoW and Rift to come over. There is no way for me to help draw them back into this game.

That’s a spoiled brat mentality and you know that. You say it should of been done in beta? Beta is what got the game flowing in the first place because it would suck it the game kept crashing every minute you try to go somewhere. That’s why beta is testing ground just to get the game flowing to get as much bugs out as possible. When the game was release to play for all that’s where the challenge starts and see how far the game can go.

Also for the part where you say players won’t come back. They will come back because one this game has no subscription and they would like to see what have come of the game from when they played it last time. For instance they took a year off so you know a lot has change and they might get hook right back into the game in no time.

Spoiled brat? There’s a ton of facts to support my position. Look at the wasteland that is failed mmorpgs. Do you know why they failed? It wasn’t because of people like me, who stayed with the game. It was because the industry trend is such that people do NOT wait for games to fix themselves. There is an expectation for game performance and that benchmark is increased after every new MMO that comes out.

Players won’t come back, if your supposition was true then the industry wouldn’t be littered with failed mmo’s. Let’s take a look at Rift (being that is the most recent mmo I can compare the game to). The pvp was fun, but mismanaged. Gradually the pvp playerbase left. After the expansion came out, there isn’t many more that came back.
People trying to hang their hat on the subscription free model forget one thing. These people gave the game a shot and would rather stay in a game that they’re already comfortable with after having “tasted” what the new flavor is.

I’m sorry that you feel having an opposing opinion to yours is being bratty, but if I may make a suggestion it would be for you to look into the mirror.

Brutalistik.6473:

That’s a spoiled brat mentality and you know that. You say it should of been done in beta? Beta is what got the game flowing in the first place because it would suck it the game kept crashing every minute you try to go somewhere. That’s why beta is testing ground just to get the game flowing to get as much bugs out as possible. When the game was release to play for all that’s where the challenge starts and see how far the game can go.

Also for the part where you say players won’t come back. They will come back because one this game has no subscription and they would like to see what have come of the game from when they played it last time. For instance they took a year off so you know a lot has change and they might get hook right back into the game in no time.

No idea where these Anet apologists keep coming from.

We have already been waiting for 3 months + beta weekends (Which we paid for) and nothing significant has happened except for some balancing, and paid tournaments which are unplayable for people who don’t play 40 hours a week due to no MMR, and long queue times. PvP is barely functional at present.

They didn’t write in the sales copy that the game would have basic competitive features added a year into release. Its completely understandle that people are angry.

When you dupe your customers then ask for feedback, obviously there will be people who aern’t content with just sitting around forever while all of their friends leave and there is no real plan to get them back.

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Can’t you guys just wait and see what happens within 2-3 months? You guys want everything so freaking fast ignoring the fact you know good and well haste makes waste.

We know Beta is just testing grounds and this game was release not too long ago and it haven’t been a year yet. Just calm down for a while instead getting all hype up saying this game already dead, pvp is not competitive etc etc. This isn’t kindergarten guys you know good and well this game is still fresh and it’ll improve later on by taking small steps instead of large steps. If they take large steps then everything will go extremely unbalance than it is now.

Unfortunately games are not given this luxury anymore. Being that we are discussing pvp, we need other players to play against (casually or competitively). The game is hemorrhaging players with (as I see it) no real plan on attracting them back.

Wait and see? That is what beta should have been for. Currently I’m 1 of 2 people still left from a pool of 33 that left WoW and Rift to come over. There is no way for me to help draw them back into this game.

That’s a spoiled brat mentality and you know that. You say it should of been done in beta? Beta is what got the game flowing in the first place because it would suck it the game kept crashing every minute you try to go somewhere. That’s why beta is testing ground just to get the game flowing to get as much bugs out as possible. When the game was release to play for all that’s where the challenge starts and see how far the game can go.

Also for the part where you say players won’t come back. They will come back because one this game has no subscription and they would like to see what have come of the game from when they played it last time. For instance they took a year off so you know a lot has change and they might get hook right back into the game in no time.

Spoiled brat? There’s a ton of facts to support my position. Look at the wasteland that is failed mmorpgs. Do you know why they failed? It wasn’t because of people like me, who stayed with the game. It was because the industry trend is such that people do NOT wait for games to fix themselves. There is an expectation for game performance and that benchmark is increased after every new MMO that comes out.

Players won’t come back, if your supposition was true then the industry wouldn’t be littered with failed mmo’s. Let’s take a look at Rift (being that is the most recent mmo I can compare the game to). The pvp was fun, but mismanaged. Gradually the pvp playerbase left. After the expansion came out, there isn’t many more that came back.
People trying to hang their hat on the subscription free model forget one thing. These people gave the game a shot and would rather stay in a game that they’re already comfortable with after having “tasted” what the new flavor is.

I’m sorry that you feel having an opposing opinion to yours is being bratty, but if I may make a suggestion it would be for you to look into the mirror.

Pyrial is absolutely right. Look, there is no way that people with foresight can enlighten those that live in the moment. Brutalistik, the only thing I can really say is I’ve seen your kind in all MMO forums of failed games. The ones that say wait 3 months and stop being brats. Then that 3 months passes and they say wait 3 months and stop being a brat. Then 3 months later, same thing. Then they start posting on the forums about merging servers because there is nobody to play with.

“When it’s ready! When it’s ready! We release when it’s ready! When it’s ready….”

Then, it releases and it’s not ready.

“We need more time! We need more time! Not enough time! We need more time!”

Song is sung in the same tune, but with drastically different lyrics.

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Pyrial.2917:

Unfortunately games are not given this luxury anymore. Being that we are discussing pvp, we need other players to play against (casually or competitively). The game is hemorrhaging players with (as I see it) no real plan on attracting them back.

Wait and see? That is what beta should have been for. Currently I’m 1 of 2 people still left from a pool of 33 that left WoW and Rift to come over. There is no way for me to help draw them back into this game.

That’s a spoiled brat mentality and you know that. You say it should of been done in beta? Beta is what got the game flowing in the first place because it would suck it the game kept crashing every minute you try to go somewhere. That’s why beta is testing ground just to get the game flowing to get as much bugs out as possible. When the game was release to play for all that’s where the challenge starts and see how far the game can go.

Also for the part where you say players won’t come back. They will come back because one this game has no subscription and they would like to see what have come of the game from when they played it last time. For instance they took a year off so you know a lot has change and they might get hook right back into the game in no time.

Spoiled brat? There’s a ton of facts to support my position. Look at the wasteland that is failed mmorpgs. Do you know why they failed? It wasn’t because of people like me, who stayed with the game. It was because the industry trend is such that people do NOT wait for games to fix themselves. There is an expectation for game performance and that benchmark is increased after every new MMO that comes out.

Players won’t come back, if your supposition was true then the industry wouldn’t be littered with failed mmo’s. Let’s take a look at Rift (being that is the most recent mmo I can compare the game to). The pvp was fun, but mismanaged. Gradually the pvp playerbase left. After the expansion came out, there isn’t many more that came back.
People trying to hang their hat on the subscription free model forget one thing. These people gave the game a shot and would rather stay in a game that they’re already comfortable with after having “tasted” what the new flavor is.

I’m sorry that you feel having an opposing opinion to yours is being bratty, but if I may make a suggestion it would be for you to look into the mirror.

I’d be careful with the spoiled brat label. I really like what they’ve done in GW2, there is a lot to be proud of, but for a mostly solo-able game, players look for other things to have fun doing in a game once they reach 100% explore and full exos. PvP is, in my opinion, one of those things. Big one for me personally. That being said, there is a long list of MMOs with big PvP implementations that have lost significant player bases over time due to the amount of issues they suffered from. One can even track the time period in which most MMOs started losing significant players based on how well rounded a PvP system was at release and how well it was adapted after release.

Pyrial makes a strong point. More should have been ready for release to buy them more time to refine and develop once the release community sunk their teeth into it. Take for example Warhammer online. That game was a focused PvP game and while it had far worse issues than GW2 does now, it held out for a good 4-6 months before the serious bleed began because even with its struggling system, the numerous battlegrounds and city sieges kept many players engaged and having fun. Warhammer is also a good example of how the game failed to fix it’s fundamental design flaws, namely balance, working city sieges, keep sieges, ranking, etc. and the bulk of it’s content eventually was not able to distract the players any longer.

More simply said, a game will start to have serious problems retaining players when the player base consumes the bulk of the working content and then begins to focus on what they where told would be in place on release and it’s not there.

Sadly, I remember a conversation with a friend I had when GW2 released. He didn’t want to join (and is playing SW:ToR of all things) because he didn’t like what he saw of GW2 PvP. Mind you this is a die-hard GW1 fan. I told him “It’s GW, of course PvP will be awesome, don’t worry. Why would they remove the system they had in GW1 when it worked so well? That doesn’t make any sense. They are just trying things a little differently, but trust me, in will be in place.”

3 and a half months later I’ve stopped trying to convince him as I’ve got nothing more to add to the discussion.

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Pyrial.2917:

Brutalistik.6473:

Can’t you guys just wait and see what happens within 2-3 months? You guys want everything so freaking fast ignoring the fact you know good and well haste makes waste.

We know Beta is just testing grounds and this game was release not too long ago and it haven’t been a year yet. Just calm down for a while instead getting all hype up saying this game already dead, pvp is not competitive etc etc. This isn’t kindergarten guys you know good and well this game is still fresh and it’ll improve later on by taking small steps instead of large steps. If they take large steps then everything will go extremely unbalance than it is now.

Unfortunately games are not given this luxury anymore. Being that we are discussing pvp, we need other players to play against (casually or competitively). The game is hemorrhaging players with (as I see it) no real plan on attracting them back.

Wait and see? That is what beta should have been for. Currently I’m 1 of 2 people still left from a pool of 33 that left WoW and Rift to come over. There is no way for me to help draw them back into this game.

That’s a spoiled brat mentality and you know that. You say it should of been done in beta? Beta is what got the game flowing in the first place because it would suck it the game kept crashing every minute you try to go somewhere. That’s why beta is testing ground just to get the game flowing to get as much bugs out as possible. When the game was release to play for all that’s where the challenge starts and see how far the game can go.

Also for the part where you say players won’t come back. They will come back because one this game has no subscription and they would like to see what have come of the game from when they played it last time. For instance they took a year off so you know a lot has change and they might get hook right back into the game in no time.

Spoiled brat? There’s a ton of facts to support my position. Look at the wasteland that is failed mmorpgs. Do you know why they failed? It wasn’t because of people like me, who stayed with the game. It was because the industry trend is such that people do NOT wait for games to fix themselves. There is an expectation for game performance and that benchmark is increased after every new MMO that comes out.

Players won’t come back, if your supposition was true then the industry wouldn’t be littered with failed mmo’s. Let’s take a look at Rift (being that is the most recent mmo I can compare the game to). The pvp was fun, but mismanaged. Gradually the pvp playerbase left. After the expansion came out, there isn’t many more that came back.
People trying to hang their hat on the subscription free model forget one thing. These people gave the game a shot and would rather stay in a game that they’re already comfortable with after having “tasted” what the new flavor is.

I’m sorry that you feel having an opposing opinion to yours is being bratty, but if I may make a suggestion it would be for you to look into the mirror.

Listen all I’m just saying is wait a while ok? take a break or something if this is too much for ya. You saw the video and now you have to wait until some changes happens. For all I know you guys just want everything to happen very fast and done immediately. You may have tons of facts supporting your position, but it won’t beat reality by giving this game time to grow. It might be a fail mmo or it might not..we don’t know that yet since this game is still fresh.

However it’s great to see your passion about this game not wanting it to fail. So let’s hope it doesn’t go that route. ok?

Lowellollipop.5817:

Pyrial.2917:

It would be interesting to see, from the panel of players, what you guys think are balance issues that mirror those from the forums and ones that do not and why.

One issue would be the counter play, or lack there of, with some of the burst specs.

I agree that it would be interesting!

In my opinion, both parts would agree on most things, but they would describe them in different ways.

Please, allow me to use the Thief profession as an example since it is the one I’m the most comfortable with.

Most casual players would say:

- Backstab is overpowered, it needs to be nerfed

Here’s what I would say:

- Backstab is fine;
- “Mug” (trait III in Deadly Arts) is too strong for a T1, numbers should be tuned down or the trait should be a T3;
- There are too many % damage multipliers % crit multipliers traits in T1-2 and stacking them makes the damage on Mug, Backstab, Heartseeker and possibly auto-attack spam over the top;
- There are 2 long sources of fury accessible in T1 traits, which -could- be too strong, Precision being the biggest damage increase stat in the game after X power is attained (I don’t remember the numbers, would have to ask my math bro Akin);
- Shadow Arts traitline is overshadowed (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?) by the aformentioned low tier trait combinations even for a D/D build and, even if you don’t want to combine those low tier traits, acrobatics is simply superior in 90% situations for utility/survivability/teamfight sustain;
- Heartseeker is overpowered, 450 range, 3 ini, ridiculous damage even at 50%

Lowell, what are your feelings about stealth and how it differs in this game from others?

The reason I bring this up is that ultimately there is a ton of frustration linked to not only the damage, but how it is initiated.

It’s one thing having high burst, hello hb warriors, it’s another thing not being able to react to it.

Sauncho.8076:

As a casual gamer, I feel his end goal and priorities are kitten backwards.

agree.

Anshard.3489:

…100b is a perfect example. J Sharp did a great job of laughing about how noob the idea was that people thought this skill was OP. Really? …

I was quite surprise by this comment. How do you call an ability that is OP against “new” players and useless against “pro” players? I would say it is poor gameplay.

I am also wondering what is their business model… Do they actually intend to generate enough revenue to sustain PvP devs from a minority of “serious” players participating to paid tournaments? Or do they intend to make money with mass casual players, one day?

imz.8593:

Sauncho.8076:

As a casual gamer, I feel his end goal and priorities are kitten backwards.

agree.

Anshard.3489:

…100b is a perfect example. J Sharp did a great job of laughing about how noob the idea was that people thought this skill was OP. Really? …

I was quite surprise by this comment. How do you call an ability that is OP against “new” players and useless against “pro” players? I would say it is poor gameplay.

I am also wondering what is their business model… Do they actually intend to generate enough revenue to sustain PvP devs from a minority of “serious” players participating to paid tournaments? Or do they intend to make money with mass casual players, one day?

I tend to disagree with the useless against “pro” players comment. I watch alot of streams and you still see people, including those in the interview, getting caught in what is called “easily avoidable” burst. Sometimes you don’t have the cd’s to deal with the burst and there is no avoiding it. I think the difference is that the downed states provides an opportunity for team play to matter, but again most of us do not play competitively in tournament play so it’s a bit harder to accept those moments and move on.

imz.8593:

Sauncho.8076:

As a casual gamer, I feel his end goal and priorities are kitten backwards.

agree.

Anshard.3489:

…100b is a perfect example. J Sharp did a great job of laughing about how noob the idea was that people thought this skill was OP. Really? …

I was quite surprise by this comment. How do you call an ability that is OP against “new” players and useless against “pro” players? I would say it is poor gameplay.

I am also wondering what is their business model… Do they actually intend to generate enough revenue to sustain PvP devs from a minority of “serious” players participating to paid tournaments? Or do they intend to make money with mass casual players, one day?

Hundred Blades is only deadly when haste is applied like any other classes that uses haste benefits to do deadly attacks. However hundreds blades is an avoidable attack once you know how to counter it. The only way an hundred blade warrior can get ya is if the warrior outsmarts ya or surprise ya when you’re fighting someone else.

I’m afraid you just opened pandora’s box lowel :<

imz.8593:

Sauncho.8076:

As a casual gamer, I feel his end goal and priorities are kitten backwards.

agree.

Anshard.3489:

…100b is a perfect example. J Sharp did a great job of laughing about how noob the idea was that people thought this skill was OP. Really? …

I was quite surprise by this comment. How do you call an ability that is OP against “new” players and useless against “pro” players? I would say it is poor gameplay.

I am also wondering what is their business model… Do they actually intend to generate enough revenue to sustain PvP devs from a minority of “serious” players participating to paid tournaments? Or do they intend to make money with mass casual players, one day?

Don’t you worry about how ArenaNet pays their PvP devs. Trust me. They get paid. And it’s not from PvP. Revenue comes in from all aspects of the game. So, money is not an issue when it comes to the motivations of the PvP dev team.

That is the beauty of sPvP in GW2. It is not swayed by money. Money does not dictate the PvP’s balance. It is the one sanctuary in GW2 that corporate greed cannot taint.

Brutalistik.6473:

Hundred Blades is only deadly when haste is applied like any other classes that uses haste benefits to do deadly attacks. However hundreds blades is an avoidable attack once you know how to counter it. The only way an hundred blade warrior can get ya is if the warrior outsmarts ya or surprise ya when you’re fighting someone else.

or stuns ya or cripples ya or knocks ya down or chills ya or Immobilizes ya…

And no, 100bs is not only deadly when haste is applied, it’s just deadly-er. Same with fury, which makes 100bs deadly-er-er.

Look, talking only about 100bs is not the focus here, it was only a clear example of how this podcast addressed what many believe to be a frustrating and OP skill and used 5v5 tPvP as the reason why it’s not foolish, saying if it doesn’t affect tPvP then it is not a concern.

“Haha, noobs think 100bs is OP.”

“Ya, haha, Warriors rarely even show up in 5v5, they get shut down by snare.”

“We just need to educate players to deal with 100bs.”

Whichever, balance is only one issue of enjoyable casual PvP in general. There are several others but from the podcast, they don’t look to be addressing them.

Lowellollipop.5817:

- Backstab is fine;

Compare stealth skills
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_skill

So
2-3k max “Tactical strike” VS 8k “Backstab” + 6k Heartseeker
Very well thought out balance.

The lollipop is a lie

Anshard.3489:

Brutalistik.6473:

Hundred Blades is only deadly when haste is applied like any other classes that uses haste benefits to do deadly attacks. However hundreds blades is an avoidable attack once you know how to counter it. The only way an hundred blade warrior can get ya is if the warrior outsmarts ya or surprise ya when you’re fighting someone else.

or stuns ya or cripples ya or knocks ya down or chills ya or Immobilizes ya…

And no, 100bs is not only deadly when haste is applied, it’s just deadly-er. Same with fury, which makes 100bs deadly-er-er.

Look, talking only about 100bs is not the focus here, it was only a clear example of how this podcast addressed what many believe to be a frustrating and OP skill and used 5v5 tPvP as the reason why it’s not foolish, saying if it doesn’t affect tPvP then it is not a concern.

“Haha, noobs think 100bs is OP.”

“Ya, haha, Warriors rarely even show up in 5v5, they get shut down by snare.”

“We just need to educate players to deal with 100bs.”

Whichever, balance is only one issue of enjoyable casual PvP in general. There are several others but from the podcast, they don’t look to be addressing them.

Pretty much what I’ve said in my post. When a warrior outsmarts ya which means countering ya. Hundred Blades will still do damage without the haste benefit, but without a doubt it’s deadly with the haste benefit.

I think they just need to rescale toughness so players can with stand classes that are spec to do burst damage.

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

Fantom.9217:

Been waiting for those since the first or second Beta Weekend.

Don’t hold your breath. ArenaNet has lost their opportunity to create a competitive PVP game in my opinion.

No one is going to come back to a game that they haven’t played in a year because features that should have been implemented at launch are FINALLY in place.

ArenaNet dropped the ball HARD with GW2. Shouldn’t have launched in August. Hell, if this is the pace that PVP features are being developed at, I’m not sure if GW2 should have been launched until 2013!

I don’t want to hear about how you can’t just throw more people at a problem, PVP in this game was (and continues to be) a CODE RED emergency. Once PVE was done (or at least in the state that it was on August 25th), EVERY SINGLE programmer, artist, and designer at ArenaNet needed to drop what they were doing and work on PVP.

There were (and are) no systems in place that they needed to learn, because we don’t have ladders, we don’t have matchmaking, we don’t have spectator mode, we don’t have private servers, we don’t have multiple game modes! They would have been starting from scratch, and any programmer worth his paycheck should have been able to help.

Then the game should have been launched in October or November, WITH core PVP features ALREADY implemented.

Seriously, what’s the point of even working on PVP features now if you don’t even have enough players to field one tournament at a time, let alone matchmaking that would sort teams by skill?

Sorry, ArenaNet. I was a huge fan, and I stuck with you for a LOT longer than I should have. But we have to move on, the PVP community can’t wait forever. And there are plenty of other games out there that are ACTUALLY COMPLETE. Competitive PVP players don’t just play MMOs, your competition had such a head start that slow as molasses development like this is SUICIDE.

Bye.

You are wrong. LoL is the perfect counter example to everything you said.

Thing is Anet doesn’t seem to want to follow LoL’s example.

Competitive Solo Queue is probably the most important thing ever.

Marduh.4603:

Lowellollipop.5817:

- Backstab is fine;

Compare stealth skills
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth_skill

So
2-3k max “Tactical strike” VS 8k “Backstab” + 6k Heartseeker
Very well thought out balance.

The lollipop is a lie

He’s not wrong actually.

Backstab is fine.

Mug isn’t.

edit : i’ll leave it be. =p