Guild Wars 2

Since mods love to switch stuff from subforums to useless ones like profession’s, i’d like to bring it back where it should stay, since it’s a CLEARLY sPvP RELATED thread and all stuff being said here are ( and were) sPvP RELATED.

Thanks for your comprehension.

Archer Henchman.2534:

sorrow.2364:

swinsk.6410:

Forgot about shortbow nerf. That one hurt a lot in spvp. I still use shortbow tho because its still out best aoe weapon.

You mean the fact that SB arrows are no longer heat seeking? Seriously, how can a nerf like that impact the thief in some way?

It completely decimated the thief’s ability to provide sustainable levels of pressure from range, entirely crushed the sb as an option to chase someone disengaging and made 15+ points in deadly arts a hell of a lot less valuable because staying in shortbow to apply choking gas’s weakness isn’t as appealing when there’s no sustained damage.

The nerf to trickshot lowers the skill’s sustained damage in team fights by more than 40% on most maps.

You probably won’t notice the difference in hotjoins, because people there will not stutterstep your trickshots intentionally, nor will you notice the difference in ranged pressure because proper rotations aren’t really a thing, and timings are far looser.

I bet they’ll increase arrow speed like they did with the ranger, in order to avoid the random “obstructed” or “miss” we face anytime we use the shortbow.

Still thief problems are other, and more serious, ones.

Like jumper said, we need MORE than 2 good skills we can spam freely ( when people complain about S/D) : we need versatility, something that only D/P and, to a certain degree, S/P have (also pre-nerf D/D, if we remove death blossom).

1. Death blossom should be reworked, and aNet need to get their mind clear with daggers ( condi ? direct damage ? control/support ? )

2. OH dagger should become a support weapon like OH pistol, there’re tons of ways to do so ( make dancing dagger and C&D able to spread poison/weakness or similar, reduce ini cost while not making C&D able to gain benefits from Infusion of Shadow).
Like this it could be used by condition sets like P/D.

3. Pistol whip needs to be reworked.

4. Sword traits, please

5. Overall better traits: we need more sinergies, the thief is the class with absolutely worst sinergies in the whole game, and with arguably one of the worst set of traits.

( a good example of a good sinergy is Lotus Poison trait).

A thief has overall no ways to be played if not stacking damage or ini regen.

Rehaul stealth tree, stealth has no use both in PvP and PvE: you should reward players to actively use stealth, not to sit passively in it while gaining health and initiative.

We need support options, and overall we need MORE DAMAGE and LESS DAMAGE TRAITS STACKING.

6. You need to revaluate the trade off between certain u-skills.

traps are horribad ( mostly due to having no traits related, not being AoEs and not being persistent), Shadow refuge is borderline OP and n.1 reason why the thief is brought into competitive play, Roll for Ini is horrible, smoke screen, venoms, blinding powder and such are all terrible choices if you compare them to other stuff like signets ( aside signet of shadows) and shadow refuge.

With some of them you can cover the issue wirh traits ( like venoms and , maybe, deceptions), other ones ( like tricks, especially scorpionwire, and traps) need overhaul.

Thanks anet, pls.

I agree, the thief is a broken sad class and should just be removed.

much like this thread that whines about moderator action, which is against the rules.

Erm, if a mod (read moderator) moved the thread to where he thought it belonged who are you to say where threads should stay? are you some anet emplyee that forgot to turn on the anet red forum tag? I’m pretty sure anet makes the rules, not you.
This is a thread about the thief class, its only logical thakittens posted in the thief subforum. not in the general spvp page. If thieves dont go to that subforum, well its their problem.

ahuba.6430:

Erm, if a mod (read moderator) moved the thread to where he thought it belonged who are you to say where threads should stay? are you some anet emplyee that forgot to turn on the anet red forum tag? I’m pretty sure anet makes the rules, not you.
This is a thread about the thief class, its only logical thakittens posted in the thief subforum. not in the general spvp page. If thieves dont go to that subforum, well its their problem.

this was a thread about thief balance in PvP.

Who cares about PvE.

Re-post:

I still think dagger/pistol needs to be reworked. The burst is technically balanced in group play, but how easy it is to pull off and how much damage it does presents a number of problems, including making the game less accessible to new players and punishing players way too quickly when a thief decides to jump into an ongoing fight. These aren’t necessarily balance problems, but they do hinder playability, entertainment, and skillful plays.

lol you really have some nerve. Regardless of where you yourself see the problem in these skills. They still persist everywhere in which both pvpers and pvers can relate. Which is why the old thread was moved so all thieves pvp and pve could post and give A-net a good well rounded opinion on what should be done. Not just listen to spvpers and change the profession based on them, and leave pve thieves out of the loop. What the moderater did was good, and your acting childish about the situation.

Rastaman.9015:

lol you really have some nerve. Regardless of where you yourself see the problem in these skills. They still persist everywhere in which both pvpers and pvers can relate. Which is why the old thread was moved so all thieves pvp and pve could post and give A-net a good well rounded opinion on what should be done. Not just listen to spvpers and change the profession based on them, and leave pve thieves out of the loop. What the moderater did was good, and your acting childish about the situation.

A good well rounded opinion on issues in sPvP coming from people who play WvW and PvE?

What?

Lopez.7369:

Re-post:

I still think dagger/pistol needs to be reworked. The burst is technically balanced in group play, but how easy it is to pull off and how much damage it does presents a number of problems, including making the game less accessible to new players and punishing players way too quickly when a thief decides to jump into an ongoing fight. These aren’t necessarily balance problems, but they do hinder playability, entertainment, and skillful plays.

How ridiculous, D/P is a near perfect set and was basically the only viable one left.

If anything, the Mug nerf has completely wiped out all thief play in high level tournaments with this set.

It has been replaced with the S/D gimmick build which does suck out all the playability, entertainment and skillful play for both thieves and opponents.

_

Instead of moving this thead, remove it to stop this lunacy from spreading.

Stof.9584:

Lopez.7369:

Re-post:

I still think dagger/pistol needs to be reworked. The burst is technically balanced in group play, but how easy it is to pull off and how much damage it does presents a number of problems, including making the game less accessible to new players and punishing players way too quickly when a thief decides to jump into an ongoing fight. These aren’t necessarily balance problems, but they do hinder playability, entertainment, and skillful plays.

How ridiculous, D/P is a near perfect set and was basically the only viable one left.

If anything, the Mug nerf has completely wiped out all thief play in high level tournaments with this set.

It has been replaced with the S/D gimmick build which does suck out all the playability, entertainment and skillful play for both thieves and opponents.

_

Instead of moving this thead, remove it to stop this lunacy from spreading.

S/D becomes gimmicky only if you bring double S/D on the table. It gives up all the AoE and a good portion of thief mobility simply to become very strong 1vs1.

It’s basically a “far point pusher – out of cluster harasser” build, ,a very niche one that by no means uses all thief potentialities.

There’s a good trade off with that build, it’s absolutely not OP.

S/D + shortbow requires more skill/positioning and it’s basically a more sustain oriented version of the standard burst thief.

Still that build uses 3 skills instead of 5 because OH dagger skills are terribad and since Tactical strike is by no means as good as Flanking-Larcenous strike.

this means S/D still needs to be improved in order to achieve the versatility D/P has.

And i would say D/P still has viability even after Mug nerf, you just need to be more “creative” ( D/P thieves are starting to run with inf signet for the second burst and Improvisation instead of Dagger mastery for the 10% damage after stealing, keeping the stolen item).

D/P is still strong, even stronger than S/D if you have a team which knows how to coordinate spikes.

They’re simply different.

From a desing PoV, S/D still needs help.

Would honestly like to see something done for p/p and traps. These imo are the most in dire need. It shouldn’t be any surprise that this weapon set, and these utilities are completely trash.

P/D, and S/P, also need some stepping up. I feel where P/D falls, is having to much stealth, or needing so much stealth. Most good P/D builds are condi builds, and you won’t play a condi build without sneak attack. This weapon set needs more viability outside stealth.

S/P; this build is normally played with venom share. I feel you need either need more coordination with a team for venoms to work, or they should increase the radius of venom share.

S/P; as for the weapon set goes, I think something needs to be done to compensate for the haste nerf. I know this hit everyone, but PW, is borderline useless.

Traps; don’t even get me started. Every single one of them are trash. The only one (maybe two) that have some use is tripwire, and maybe shadow trap. If shadow trap was a stun break with shadow pursuit, it might be more useful to use. But the others, Ambush trap, the thieves you get are terrible, die so fast. Needle Trap, the poison damage isn’t even noticeable.

I think Caed/Jumper said it best on the Revealed show. “You have to set the traps on people. They are not traps at all, you can just dodge right through them, and players can avoid them.”

make d/d more stronger overall, and dancing daggers need more dmg, fast.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Rastaman.9015:

lol you really have some nerve. Regardless of where you yourself see the problem in these skills. They still persist everywhere in which both pvpers and pvers can relate. Which is why the old thread was moved so all thieves pvp and pve could post and give A-net a good well rounded opinion on what should be done. Not just listen to spvpers and change the profession based on them, and leave pve thieves out of the loop. What the moderater did was good, and your acting childish about the situation.

A good well rounded opinion on issues in sPvP coming from people who play WvW and PvE?

What?

These issues don’t just affect spvp. If they were to make big changes to the traits and what the skills do, it would be to everyone regardless of spvp or pve and wvw. Therefore they need opinions from everyone in order to please everyone.

Mrbig.8019:

Improvisation instead of Dagger mastery for the 10% damage after stealing, keeping the stolen item).

Wonder who started that rumor.

Rastaman.9015:

Archer Henchman.2534:

Rastaman.9015:

lol you really have some nerve. Regardless of where you yourself see the problem in these skills. They still persist everywhere in which both pvpers and pvers can relate. Which is why the old thread was moved so all thieves pvp and pve could post and give A-net a good well rounded opinion on what should be done. Not just listen to spvpers and change the profession based on them, and leave pve thieves out of the loop. What the moderater did was good, and your acting childish about the situation.

A good well rounded opinion on issues in sPvP coming from people who play WvW and PvE?

What?

These issues don’t just affect spvp. If they were to make big changes to the traits and what the skills do, it would be to everyone regardless of spvp or pve and wvw. Therefore they need opinions from everyone in order to please everyone.

What big changes to traits and skills exactly are being proposed here, and when has anet floated potential changes for us to discuss in the past.

Oh wait, none and never.

Thieves are talking about their issues in sPvP. If the issues are compartmentalized, why would you try to have a conversation between people who are discussing fundamentally different issues?

hmm where can we start. oh here L2P, L2D and dont play thief. On a more serious note. Thieves cannot be buffed or nerfed any more. The stupid situation anet have put themselves in by giving thieves invisibility that goes against what the game mode is about is just plain dumb. since so many ppl rely on it thieves cannot be given higher survivability. I can say this however. stealth is not being used as intended and it is causing MAJOR issues with the thief. mainly those who want to rely less on it and more on evasion and other abilities.

Improve oh dagger, less damage on lacerous strike, more damage on anytime (or better celerity) or other style. Basically you need to spread the power of #3 on entire set.
This means less spam, more balanced set.

Of course if u (anet) make a style MORE better then other 4, people spam it.

MarkPhilips.5169:

Improve oh dagger, less damage on lacerous strike, more damage on anytime (or better celerity) or other style. Basically you need to spread the power of #3 on entire set.
This means less spam, more balanced set.

Of course if u (anet) make a style MORE better then other 4, people spam it.

It’s called the autoattack. Sword auto chain does nearly the same damage of flanking>larcenous, and has weakness/cripple to boot. Just wait till weakness gets buffed, and sword thieves are the one class that can keep a single target with permanent weakness.

Zenith.7301:

MarkPhilips.5169:

Improve oh dagger, less damage on lacerous strike, more damage on anytime (or better celerity) or other style. Basically you need to spread the power of #3 on entire set.
This means less spam, more balanced set.

Of course if u (anet) make a style MORE better then other 4, people spam it.

It’s called the autoattack. Sword auto chain does nearly the same damage of flanking>larcenous, and has weakness/cripple to boot. Just wait till weakness gets buffed, and sword thieves are the one class that can keep a single target with permanent weakness.

Landing a crippling strike is hard as hell: AA is super slow and a thief really has no way to bring perma-weakness unless you trait for lotus poison + shortbow.

In that case you have bad ini regen and can’t spam skills in order to keep your sustained damage high ( THAT is the reason why S/D thieves spam Larcenous: because it’s the best trade off skill in the set).

As i said, poison + weakness for OH dagger, remove vulnerability from C&D and replace it with something else, bring down the cost and make it to not benefit from infusion of shadow ( so it will always cost like 4 ini ) in order to let thieves use it.

Tactical srtike also needs a buff.

And in the OP there are some suggestions for skills/traits/ u-skills that need to be addressed.

4s revealed and a lot of the damage nerfs need to be reverted…

Thief needs their damage back.

I’d be up for some changes. From my perspective, there only one or two options for them. Both are stupidly op, whilst the rest are underwhelming to say the least.
How the class got through beta in this state is beyond me.
It’s not fun for the poor sots who have to fight perma stealth spammers and not fun for thieves who want to play something different.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Rastaman.9015:

Archer Henchman.2534:

Rastaman.9015:

lol you really have some nerve. Regardless of where you yourself see the problem in these skills. They still persist everywhere in which both pvpers and pvers can relate. Which is why the old thread was moved so all thieves pvp and pve could post and give A-net a good well rounded opinion on what should be done. Not just listen to spvpers and change the profession based on them, and leave pve thieves out of the loop. What the moderater did was good, and your acting childish about the situation.

A good well rounded opinion on issues in sPvP coming from people who play WvW and PvE?

What?

These issues don’t just affect spvp. If they were to make big changes to the traits and what the skills do, it would be to everyone regardless of spvp or pve and wvw. Therefore they need opinions from everyone in order to please everyone.

What big changes to traits and skills exactly are being proposed here, and when has anet floated potential changes for us to discuss in the past.

Oh wait, none and never.

Thieves are talking about their issues in sPvP. If the issues are compartmentalized, why would you try to have a conversation between people who are discussing fundamentally different issues?

Just incase you didnt see it here you go…
1. Death blossom should be reworked, and aNet need to get their mind clear with daggers ( condi ? direct damage ? control/support ? )
((Changing death blossom could possibly sabotage condition spec thieves in pve aiming for aoe bleeds on the mobs.))

2. OH dagger should become a support weapon like OH pistol, there’re tons of ways to do so ( make dancing dagger and C&D able to spread poison/weakness or similar, reduce ini cost while not making C&D able to gain benefits from Infusion of Shadow).
Like this it could be used by condition sets like P/D.
(( C&D not benefiting from Infusion of shadows mainly effects wvw thieves, reducing their “synergy” or “flow” in small fights.))

3. Pistol whip needs to be reworked.
(( S/P is highly recommened by mainy pro thieves for leveling up via pve. Changing it could possibly destroy this build in pve.))

4. Sword traits, please
((Adding sword traits means removal of other traits which could possibly hurt mainy build including pve pvp and wvw.))

5. Overall better traits: we need more sinergies, the thief is the class with absolutely worst sinergies in the whole game, and with arguably one of the worst set of traits.
( a good example of a good sinergy is Lotus Poison trait).
A thief has overall no ways to be played if not stacking damage or ini regen.
Rehaul stealth tree, stealth has no use both in PvP and PvE: you should reward players to actively use stealth, not to sit passively in it while gaining health and initiative.
We need support options, and overall we need MORE DAMAGE and LESS DAMAGE TRAITS STACKING.
(( Changeing the way stealth works whether it be good or bad is mentioned by the auther of this thread to be worthless in PvP and PvE. Implying it should be changed in PvP AND PvE.))

6. You need to revaluate the trade off between certain u-skills.
traps are horribad ( mostly due to having no traits related, not being AoEs and not being persistent), Shadow refuge is borderline OP and n.1 reason why the thief is brought into competitive play, Roll for Ini is horrible, smoke screen, venoms, blinding powder and such are all terrible choices if you compare them to other stuff like signets ( aside signet of shadows) and shadow refuge.
(( Lots of utility skills are listed here changeing this much would deffinatley effect players from anywhere whether it be PvP, PvE, or WvW.))

Im not disagreeing with any of his opinions as I too think thief needs a bit more work. Furthermore, besides from things like the confusion damage nerf in spvp. Trait changes (listed many times by the auther) would not only take place in spvp but also would take the same effect in both PvE, and WvW. Therefore to please everyone a-net would like to hear from all sides.

And to top it all off. A direct quote from Jon peters on a sotg stream.

Mod jon_peters: every single trait line is seeing at least 1 change

The thread can be found here.
“https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Incoming-ele-trait-changes/first”

@Archer Henchman.2534 Please get your facts straight before you come and expose your ignorance. Thank you.

Rastaman.9015:

@Archer Henchman.2534 Please get your facts straight before you come and expose your ignorance. Thank you.

skills are split between pve and pvp version.

your point is invalid.

in pve stuff can remain the same if you’re happy, in pvp stuff needs to change.

period

Mrbig.8019:

Rastaman.9015:

@Archer Henchman.2534 Please get your facts straight before you come and expose your ignorance. Thank you.

skills are split between pve and pvp version.

your point is invalid.

in pve stuff can remain the same if you’re happy, in pvp stuff needs to change.

period

Traits my friend traits. Not skills. And recent changes especially to rangers traits the change was made in both pve and spvp.

Rastaman.9015:

Mrbig.8019:

Rastaman.9015:

@Archer Henchman.2534 Please get your facts straight before you come and expose your ignorance. Thank you.

skills are split between pve and pvp version.

your point is invalid.

in pve stuff can remain the same if you’re happy, in pvp stuff needs to change.

period

Traits my friend traits. Not skills. And recent changes especially to rangers traits the change was made in both pve and spvp.

Eles, regarding evasive arcana and such, would like to disagree, and inform you are wrong.

Cheers.

Mrbig.8019:

Rastaman.9015:

Mrbig.8019:

Rastaman.9015:

@Archer Henchman.2534 Please get your facts straight before you come and expose your ignorance. Thank you.

skills are split between pve and pvp version.

your point is invalid.

in pve stuff can remain the same if you’re happy, in pvp stuff needs to change.

period

Traits my friend traits. Not skills. And recent changes especially to rangers traits the change was made in both pve and spvp.

Eles, regarding evasive arcana and such, would like to disagree, and inform you are wrong.

Cheers.

These are all changes made in both pve and spvp…
Elementalist
Ring of Earth skill: No longer destroys unblockable projectiles.
Lightning Whip skill: Now strikes targets in a similar angle to other melee ranged skills.
Elemental Surge trait: Now functions correctly with the Arcane Shield skill while the player is attuned to air.
Conjure skill: Summoned weapons now correctly appear in the player’s hands if certain on-swap sigils are equipped.
Arcane Energy trait: Now works properly with the Arcane Power, Arcane Shield, and Signet of Restoration skills.
Rock Anchor skill: No longer able to affect targets at infinite range. Now respects line of sight.
Air Bubble skill: No longer able to affect targets at infinite range. Now respects line of sight.

Engineer
Glue Bomb skill: The radius of the effects is now consistent—240 units for all effects when untraited, 360 units for all effects when traited.
Adrenaline Pump trait: Now works with turrets and racial skills.
Short Fuse trait: Now works underwater even when the Grenadier trait is equipped.
Inertial Converter trait: Now works underwater for the Grenade Barrage skill.
Rocket Kick skill: Now hits targets at maximum range.
Fire Bomb skill: No longer deletes the bomb if the player jumps at the wrong time.
Smoke Bomb skill: No longer deletes the bomb if the player jumps at the wrong

Guardian
Symbol of Judgment skill:
Now acts as a combo field even if the Writ of Exaltation trait is not equipped.
No longer heals for less without the Writ of Exaltation trait. It now uses the higher value in all cases, and the healing fact on the tool tip is now always accurate.

Dont feel like finding more but you get the point by now i hope. And i’m not some snarky kid so here are some instances where you are right.

Guardian
Perfect Inscriptions trait: Now functions in PvE.

Ranger
Pets now draw aggro from guards in WvW.

Elementalist
Signet of Restoration:
This skill now has its cooldown reduced by the Signet Mastery in PvP.
Spiteful Talisman:
This trait now works with Reaper’s Touch in PvE.

This is from update notes May 28th and June 11th.
As you can see the pvp, wvw, pve specific changes are GREATLY outnumbered. And with the vast amounts of trait changes to come, we can only expect that alot if not all changes will be in all pvp, wvw, and pve. So please stop arguing with me. NEXT.

S/P’s main “fix” is simply upping numbers. 3-5 should all be considered for increases on their co-efficients. Traps, venoms, signets, whatever should be considered secondary focuses behind the weapon sets. The longer the weapon sets aren’t the primary focus for the thief the longer the professions going to be held back.

Rastaman.9015:

@Archer Henchman.2534 Please get your facts straight before you come and expose your ignorance. Thank you.

You realize your list of ‘proposed changes’ are things that single posters have mentioned, and largely changes that don’t solve any of the issues the the class?

Next, skills have already started to be split between PvE and PvP, so if the change is substantial, there’s no need to maintain it across gametypes (besides for an argument about maintaining shared functionality across gametypes, which is silly, because the different damage modifiers possible in, say, wvwvw, create completely different expectations of players within classes.)

Originally I looked at the skill changes you talked about, but then I realized that all of the proposals on the table are to strengthen those skills, which shouldn’t break any pve/pvp workflow issues.

Given the above, I have no idea how straight improvements to the class which have been requested threaten to ruin pve, nor do I see what spvp gains from commentary from the wvwvw and pve crowd.

Segregating input from different sections of the userbase is standard procedure when performing A/B testing. It allows you to determine who wants what, why they respond differently to differing offerings, and what you can do to maximize a few key metrics. Lumping feedback together in a situation where we KNOW that the strengths and weaknesses of thieves in the three game modes are drastically different. But not only are they drastically different between game modes, they’re also drastically different across an axis of player skill as well as weapon/rune/sigil setup and trait allocation.

Given that muddle of different groups, it makes sense to FURTHER segregate feedback, not to amalgamate.

Archer Henchman.2534:

You realize your list of ‘proposed changes’ are things that single posters have mentioned, and largely changes that don’t solve any of the issues the the class?

Regardeless if you feel the changes made no effect, The game developers that posted these updates are slowly but surley make changes that effect everyone. I do respect opinions but you can’t speak for everyone. For some of our players these updates where crucial to thier gameplay.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Next, skills have already started to be split between PvE and PvP, so if the change is substantial, there’s no need to maintain it across gametypes (besides for an argument about maintaining shared functionality across gametypes, which is silly, because the different damage modifiers possible in, say, wvwvw, create completely different expectations of players within classes.)

I posted proof that ALOT of the updates occured in both pvp and pve. AND I also posted proof that changes CAN be made just in pvp or just in pve. So I don’t know where you are getting at saying changes are not and can’t be changed over pve and pvp when clearly the majority of all changes occur in both sections of the game. Also I did acknowledge changes with damage modifiers such as the confusion nerf. Another one would be the retaliation nerf in spvp.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Originally I looked at the skill changes you talked about, but then I realized that all of the proposals on the table are to strengthen those skills, which shouldn’t break any pve/pvp workflow issues.

I do appreciate you looking at what I posted. However I think you getting this idea because I posted alot about how these changes could possibly ruin the profession overall. Seeing that the changes in the past occurred in both pve and pvp for the most part. The slightest mistake by A-net could be devastating. Mistakes like biased opinions from only sPvP players could insure the failure of the professions.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Given the above, I have no idea how straight improvements to the class which have been requested threaten to ruin pve, nor do I see what spvp gains from commentary from the wvwvw and pve crowd.

I do apologize before hand as I can not find the post where this was stated. For example it was once stated that a fix to thief not being able to cap points while in stealth was to make him slightly visible to the point where the enemy can see you the way your team does when you go stealth. If this change was also applied to wvw, I’t would completely change how a thief works in wvw.

What you are defending here is the idea that A-net moved this thread out of the spvp section to get more feedback from spvpers. See how rediculous this sounds now? Now doesn’t my proposale make more sense. And why wouldn’t A-net try to appeal to all players?

Furthermore SOTG (State of the game), contains discussions (while occasionaly focused on pvp or some other aspect) about the game over all and its professions. Listing problems such as thief effectiveness in dungeons. Changes to how professions work in pve, and great ides from the community as to what spvp play needs.
These posts like this one named "State of the(Thief, Mesmer, ect….), should include details on spvp, pve, and wvw. Now how does one achieve this by limiting posts to only spvpers? The forum title should read “Thief pvp” or “sPvP ideas (Thief)”. So again please stop arguing with me.

Rastaman.9015:

snip

Working from the bottom up:

The post was in the spvp forum, and was clearly designed to address the state of thieves’ viability in spvp. Do you think that Grouch’s dev sitdown’s name changes what the thread was designed to do?

The developers are currently in the process of doing the equivalent of A/B testing with mechanics in the game. There is a rather large body of systemic and organizational literature about best practices for optimization of systems. Having properly organized data sets is one. Muddling sources of input by moving the thread does not help; if wvwvw thieves want to make a thread in the wvwvw section and devs believe that their issues are more pertinent wrt a specific skill or mechanic than what’s listed here, that’s their call.

A bunch of off-the-wall suggestions made by players with little design knowledge is exactly the problem at hand. If you think those types of suggestions are an issue, then you’d want to see the source of the suggestion in order to determine the aim of the suggestion so that you can evaluate it better. A thief in tpvp asking for survivability buffs encounter different scenarios than a roaming thief in wvw, for instance.

I’ll take exception to that idea. spvp’s balance is significantly less plastic than pve or wvwvw. Let me give you an example: if Class A and Class B are carbon copies of each other, but class B is only 90% as effective as class A, then Class B might be excluded from dungeons or have a slightly harder time in wvwvw, but they’ll still be able to complete pve content, and they’ll still be able to sit in a zerg and run around busting down doors and hitting up supply camps. In competitive PvP by contrast CLASS B WILL NOT BE PLAYED. EVER. Want an in-game example of this? Anet nerfed quickness in order to lower the speed at which zerk groups cleared CoF1; no one in the pvp community was complaining about quickness, while lots of people were kittening about the formation of exclusive speedrun groups. The removal of quickness from the arsenals of warriors and rangers has decimated the warrior population and turned them into a huge liability, while it also severely reduced the effectiveness of rangers overall. I don’t recall seeing a single warrior in the previous tournament, whereas warriors STILL zerk farm CoF1.

Competitive balance is more brittle than balance against PvE mobs, accordingly it should be a primary concern. Dealing with PvE mechanics and class desirability can be solved by adding boss mechanics which substantially favor certain classes, whereas the only x-factor in pvp is map design, which iterates far less frequently than changes to dungeons and their mechanics do.

Posts like yours remind me why a lot of quality posters don’t bother to write down their thoughts; too much noise from low-quality posters.

I agree thief could use much fixing and enhancement but todays patch essentially broke thief almost if not completely.
Tele no longer goes through walls or onto objects… sounds like a fair nerf until you realize what it means or just try to play thief… I can no longer survive anything and no longer have superior mobility to any other class this might have been the straw that broke the camels back, I don’t feel any temptation to play pvp anymore. Maybe it sounds dramatic but it doesn’t feel that way, unless reverted a lot of rebalancing is going to have to happen over a long period of time, ill be back in 2yrs…

Archer Henchman.2534:

The post was in the spvp forum, and was clearly designed to address the state of thieves’ viability in spvp. Do you think that Grouch’s dev sitdown’s name changes what the thread was designed to do?

This here is a direct quote from the original post.
“Rehaul stealth tree, stealth has no use both in PvP and PvE: you should reward players to actively use stealth, not to sit passively in it while gaining health and initiative.”
While his main focus may very well be spvp related he still mentions pve. And it does not change the fact that a-net wants to please both pve and pvp players. I already proved that most of their changes to professions occur in both pve and pvp, so let it go you lost this one.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Muddling sources of input by moving the thread does not help; if wvwvw thieves want to make a thread in the wvwvw section and devs believe that their issues are more pertinent wrt a specific skill or mechanic than what’s listed here, that’s their call.

If you feel what a-net did here was unjustified take that up with them. I didn’t tell them to move it. I’m pretty sure the people getting paid to do this know what they are doing. If the post was in the right place it would have stayed there.[/quote]

Archer Henchman.2534:

A bunch of off-the-wall suggestions made by players with little design knowledge is exactly the problem at hand. If you think those types of suggestions are an issue, then you’d want to see the source of the suggestion in order to determine the aim of the suggestion so that you can evaluate it better.

I encourage players to think “outside of the box” as to what needs to be done. Proof of encouragement. (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stop-nerfing-us/first#post2192670)
The developers think so as well. why would we have a suggestion forum? In current SOTG videos the devs themselves say they read the forums, and they like to read what we have to say.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Anet nerfed quickness in order to lower the speed at which zerk groups cleared CoF1; no one in the pvp community was complaining about quickness, while lots of people were kittening about the formation of exclusive speedrun groups. The removal of quickness from the arsenals of warriors and rangers has decimated the warrior population and turned them into a huge liability, while it also severely reduced the effectiveness of rangers overall. I don’t recall seeing a single warrior in the previous tournament, whereas warriors STILL zerk farm CoF1.

Lol your own quote!! This further proves my point as to how changes are taken place in both pvp AND pve. Also shows how hard it is to please everyone. Which is why they need everyone’s input.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Competitive balance is more brittle than balance against PvE mobs, accordingly it should be a primary concern. Dealing with PvE mechanics and class desirability can be solved by adding boss mechanics which substantially favor certain classes, whereas the only x-factor in pvp is map design, which iterates far less frequently than changes to dungeons and their mechanics do.

Your own quote again!! So in other words it is even harder than we thought to change a profession to benefit pve AND pvp players, because the objectives differ.

Nice story though I can tell this took some time to write up. I’m flattered you are turning to call me names instead of sticking to the point (nice maturity here). Anywho do you even know what you are defending? Are you saying a-net was wrong to move the post? Is getting input from all players before a big trait change bad? Why not have all this information in one place? Should professions be very different between spvp and pve to the point of unrecognition? Please read before you type, it saves the embarrassment. Anything else I can help you with?

@rastaman dude

listen, there’ve been splits in traits for PvE and PvP.

In recent SOTGs devs stated they’re goign to split more and more and more, and they’re doing so even for WvW.

I AM THE OP and when i said “rehaul stealth tree because it’s usekitten th in PvP and PvE” i was referring to an OBVIOUS fact: stealth is bad for end-game PvE and COMPLETELY USELESS in PvP, it’s used only to grief opponents in WvW and it’s BAD DESIGN.

Aside this LITTLE DIGRESSION, all my concerns are about PvP since i don’t give a kitten about PvE.

PvE players can raise their ( legitimate) concerns in the PvE subforum, WvW players can raise their ( legitimate) concerns in the WvW forum.

This is the sPvP forum.

And this thread is about the thief in PvP

STOP YOUR NONSENSE, PLEASE.

Mrbig.8019:

@rastaman dude

listen, there’ve been splits in traits for PvE and PvP.

In recent SOTGs devs stated they’re goign to split more and more and more, and they’re doing so even for WvW.

I AM THE OP and when i said “rehaul stealth tree because it’s usekitten th in PvP and PvE” i was referring to an OBVIOUS fact: stealth is bad for end-game PvE and COMPLETELY USELESS in PvP, it’s used only to grief opponents in WvW and it’s BAD DESIGN.

Aside this LITTLE DIGRESSION, all my concerns are about PvP since i don’t give a kitten about PvE.

PvE players can raise their ( legitimate) concerns in the PvE subforum, WvW players can raise their ( legitimate) concerns in the WvW forum.

This is the sPvP forum.

And this thread is about the thief in PvP

STOP YOUR NONSENSE, PLEASE.

I know you status as the orginal op. And I know you feel some type of way because the developers moved your post. What you are trying to do is tell them how to run their forums which is unacceptable. If they moved the forums it was for a good reason. Your little friend here doesn’t seem to understand that. As if A-net has no experience with handling forums. And again i say if the forum was where it was supposed to be IT WOULD HAVE STAYED. I assume you havn’t read the entire argument me and archer which is quite impressive i might say. During this argument I prove multiple times that you are both wrong in which why the post should be moved and right in which traits and skills very well can be separated between pve and pvp. And yet history shows that these changes occured in pve and pvp for the most part. Am I wrong? Even to the point that I have clear reference points from the developers posts themselves. Where is your proof… no where. You claim radical gestures from your own imagination. Even to the point where I have proved my points with your own posts. The point is you can’t deny the facts, so stop arguing with me your both wrong trying to justify your own insecurities with A-net. People like you should not be allowed to use the forums. Furthermore, like I said before, I do think thief needs a bit of work as well. All in all only time will tell.

And this, folks, is how you derail a thread with pve bullkitten and turn this forum into an unreadable cesspool,

Archer Henchman.2534:

And this, folks, is how you derail a thread with pve bullkitten and turn this forum into an unreadable cesspool,

Who cares?
OP is a madbad and all the good posts in the world don’t make a bit of difference.
Most of what people think are intellectual epiphanies are actually posts which have been happening since 2011.

I’m sad about it, not mad.

mbh.8301:

Archer Henchman.2534:

And this, folks, is how you derail a thread with pve bullkitten and turn this forum into an unreadable cesspool,

Who cares?
OP is a madbad and all the good posts in the world don’t make a bit of difference.
Most of what people think are intellectual epiphanies are actually posts which have been happening since 2011.

I’m sad about it, not mad.

Good posts do make a difference, but our community doesnt have the equivalent of izzy taking notes from ensign or any other dev listening to an articulate and knowledgeable set of players. I was hoping Powerr’s recruitment into anet’s team would help things, but the pvp patch record since he’s joined the team hasn’t really filled my sails with wind. (not hating, though, I’m still really glad there’s a solid player who’s on the inside).

The problem is that if players comment at a roughly equivalent rates, and player engagement/skill/knowledge/lucidity follows the 1% rule and post quality follows Sturgeon’s rule(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law), then from the outset the suggestions the devs are getting are from an unrepresentative sample of loud people who, on the whole, are missing 9 times for every hit they score.

Those are horrendous odds.

I’ve seen games of all genres flourish or fail based upon who devs listened to, how they listened to them, and how communities organized around games. This game is no different.

Archer Henchman.2534:

mbh.8301:

Archer Henchman.2534:

And this, folks, is how you derail a thread with pve bullkitten and turn this forum into an unreadable cesspool,

Who cares?
OP is a madbad and all the good posts in the world don’t make a bit of difference.
Most of what people think are intellectual epiphanies are actually posts which have been happening since 2011.

I’m sad about it, not mad.

Good posts do make a difference, but our community doesnt have the equivalent of izzy taking notes from ensign or any other dev listening to an articulate and knowledgeable set of players. I was hoping Powerr’s recruitment into anet’s team would help things, but the pvp patch record since he’s joined the team hasn’t really filled my sails with wind. (not hating, though, I’m still really glad there’s a solid player who’s on the inside).

The problem is that if players comment at a roughly equivalent rates, and player engagement/skill/knowledge/lucidity follows the 1% rule and post quality follows Sturgeon’s rule(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law), then from the outset the suggestions the devs are getting are from an unrepresentative sample of loud people who, on the whole, are missing 9 times for every hit they score.

Those are horrendous odds.

I’ve seen games of all genres flourish or fail based upon who devs listened to, how they listened to them, and how communities organized around games. This game is no different.

So Archer I ask you this.. Would setting up a state of the (all professions) thread in spvp, wvw, and pve forums be a better solution? To keep things separated and onto the point. Maybe doing it this way would keep things more organized, and would appeal to these certain sections of players. Posts like Jumpers “Thief- IMO” would be expected and maybe we could give them an idea as to what we want as a community instead of complaining about mods.

Rastaman.9015:

So Archer I ask you this.. Would setting up a state of the (all professions) thread in spvp, wvw, and pve forums be a better solution? To keep things separated and onto the point. Maybe doing it this way would keep things more organized, and would appeal to these certain sections of players. Posts like Jumpers “Thief- IMO” would be expected and maybe we could give them an idea as to what we want as a community instead of complaining about mods.

Anet knows what our opinions are (things like RNG IS BAD) and they keep in touch with the top players. I can only imagine that they talk to them so that they have something to do the opposite of.

mbh.8301:

Anet knows what our opinions are (things like RNG IS BAD) and they keep in touch with the top players. I can only imagine that they talk to them so that they have something to do the opposite of.

Lol

Mrbig.8019:

traps are horribad ( mostly due to having no traits related, not being AoEs and not being persistent)

I just wanted to add to this, even if it’s a small little bit that I thought of when I read that. The poison trap is absolute trash.

A) Poison in PvP from a single proc use is almost guaranteed to be useless in PvP because condi removal is so insanely strong.
B) The damage from the poison trap will bring you out of stealth as if you actually attacked your opponent. So if you are unfortunately invested 30 into Shadow Arts, and were relying on that shadow refuge stealth to heal you up and remain a presence without dying immediately … well, too bad, Anet’s ability to design and let alone balance this game is quite lacking.

Death Blossom … also, in PvP, is a horrid joke of a skill. Hard to land all hits, even if you’re right on top of your opponent, simple movement can negate one or two hits, which the physical portion doesn’t matter … it’s the lack of 1 or 2 stacks of bleed, all that damage!! (Oh wait, they’re 10 second bleeds) Who the hell is going to allow a bleed to stay on them for 10+ seconds in SPvP?

If Death Blossom was going to actually be worth a kitten in PvP, it would require the bleeds be a MUCH shorter duration, and have more stacks of bleeds so that you can ACTUALLY get the damage in there.

Simple fix, even if it seems like it would be OP (because people might actually use it, even with it’s trashy 1/4th of a second evasion, which is literally 1/4th of the animation, if not less so you’re vulnerable as a helpless kitten while you’re flopping midway through the air trying desperately to actually land all 3 hits on someone) is to simply cut the bleed duration in half, and then double the stacks of bleeds. That way they will actually do damage before they’re AUTOMATICALLY REMOVED by something like a Guardian.

(Because not having to think about removing a condition = skill, right?)

On an actual positive note though, something Arenanet actually did right for once was put boon stealing on S/D. Except that’s now FOTM and S/D thieves spam 3 all day and do decently because the evasion on that is 1/2 second vs 1/4th second that Death Blossom has.

Flanking Strike, even with it’s own variation okittenwardness, easily trumps Death Blossom due to evasive time, animation length, and reliability in both usage AND damage.

Thief really has no place as a condition built class, or so it feels. Condi removal just too easy … so when I look at Death Blossom when using D/D I’m left thinking.

“Okay … 1, 2, and 5 are good. 3 is trash, and 4 was over nerfed and is now trash as well”

… I hate how pigeonholed thief is, and how useless so much of our traits feel. LOL … 20% CHANCE TO HAVE A BULLET OF LOW PITIFUL DAMAGE REFLECT TO SOMEONE ELSE. <—- ?!?! XD And that’s BUFFED from it’s initial 7%!

Who the EFF thought of that bad idea. It’s like they scraped by for ideas for traits. There’s a strong MANY reasons I don’t invest a lot of time into this game.

Lol, so blinding powder is bad now? even though if you lay down a blinding powder and use cluster bomb it’s an aoe stealth ? Jeesus, learn your class before you rage and say it needs a huge buff.

Jesiah.2457:

Mrbig.8019:

traps are horribad ( mostly due to having no traits related, not being AoEs and not being persistent)

I just wanted to add to this, even if it’s a small little bit that I thought of when I read that. The poison trap is absolute trash.

A) Poison in PvP from a single proc use is almost guaranteed to be useless in PvP because condi removal is so insanely strong.
B) The damage from the poison trap will bring you out of stealth as if you actually attacked your opponent. So if you are unfortunately invested 30 into Shadow Arts, and were relying on that shadow refuge stealth to heal you up and remain a presence without dying immediately … well, too bad, Anet’s ability to design and let alone balance this game is quite lacking.

Death Blossom … also, in PvP, is a horrid joke of a skill. Hard to land all hits, even if you’re right on top of your opponent, simple movement can negate one or two hits, which the physical portion doesn’t matter … it’s the lack of 1 or 2 stacks of bleed, all that damage!! (Oh wait, they’re 10 second bleeds) Who the hell is going to allow a bleed to stay on them for 10+ seconds in SPvP?

If Death Blossom was going to actually be worth a kitten in PvP, it would require the bleeds be a MUCH shorter duration, and have more stacks of bleeds so that you can ACTUALLY get the damage in there.

Simple fix, even if it seems like it would be OP (because people might actually use it, even with it’s trashy 1/4th of a second evasion, which is literally 1/4th of the animation, if not less so you’re vulnerable as a helpless kitten while you’re flopping midway through the air trying desperately to actually land all 3 hits on someone) is to simply cut the bleed duration in half, and then double the stacks of bleeds. That way they will actually do damage before they’re AUTOMATICALLY REMOVED by something like a Guardian.

(Because not having to think about removing a condition = skill, right?)

On an actual positive note though, something Arenanet actually did right for once was put boon stealing on S/D. Except that’s now FOTM and S/D thieves spam 3 all day and do decently because the evasion on that is 1/2 second vs 1/4th second that Death Blossom has.

Flanking Strike, even with it’s own variation okittenwardness, easily trumps Death Blossom due to evasive time, animation length, and reliability in both usage AND damage.

Thief really has no place as a condition built class, or so it feels. Condi removal just too easy … so when I look at Death Blossom when using D/D I’m left thinking.

“Okay … 1, 2, and 5 are good. 3 is trash, and 4 was over nerfed and is now trash as well”

… I hate how pigeonholed thief is, and how useless so much of our traits feel. LOL … 20% CHANCE TO HAVE A BULLET OF LOW PITIFUL DAMAGE REFLECT TO SOMEONE ELSE. <—- ?!?! XD And that’s BUFFED from it’s initial 7%!

Who the EFF thought of that bad idea. It’s like they scraped by for ideas for traits. There’s a strong MANY reasons I don’t invest a lot of time into this game.

poison is insanely bad in PvP now? Even though it counters most bunker builds which are very frequent in PvP ?

Inverted.7439:

Lol, so blinding powder is bad now? even though if you lay down a blinding powder and use cluster bomb it’s an aoe stealth ? Jeesus, learn your class before you rage and say it needs a huge buff.

That’s Black Powder…look up Blinding Powder again.

Lol this guy talking about how pigeonholed thieves are.. Have u seen Eles? Sir please do not speak anymore

Mrbig.8019:

.

I AM THE OP and when i said “rehaul stealth tree because it’s usekitten th in PvP and PvE” i was referring to an OBVIOUS fact: stealth is bad for end-game PvE and COMPLETELY USELESS in PvP, it’s used only to grief opponents in WvW and it’s BAD DESIGN.

This.
The thing is that since 10 months have passed everyone that doesnt like stealth spamming probably wont be playing thief. They’ll always pretend like they dont understand the 100% true point u just made and quickly end up reverting into the same old defensive ME NOT OP crap.

Good to see there are some thieves with common sense. Now we wait for ANET to listen to you instead of the 1000 facerollers out there olol.