Guild Wars 2

I’ve been playing PvP for over a year. And I’m finally to the point of saying enough. Enough of mesmers killing me all the time. Enough of mesmers taking two or three players to kill. Enough of losing time and time again to teams w/ stealth player
superiority.

There already is a counter category that tracks how many kills a particular account has. What needs to happen is this. The Devs NEED to create a “killed” tracker. There needs to be a counter that tracks each and every “death” in PvP. By toon type category. Then a breakdown should be done in regards to percentages and frequency.

Then after a month the results need to be analyzed and ideally, published for general consumption. I am SICK AND TIRED of people saying that “oh, look at the playoff boards. You don’t see any mesmers there…” What MY individual experience tells me is that neither my warrior, my engineer, OR my necro can routinely KILL a Mesmer.

In FACT, I almost NEVER kill a Mesmer by myself. Unlike warriors or guardians, which my eng routinely eats for breakfast. Unlike rangers, necros, engs and thieves. Mesmers are the one class that in PvP that I perceive to be bulletproof.

So this will not only settle the argument of Mesmer invincibility once and for all, BUT should ALSO should show that STEALTH classes have an UNFAIR advantage in PvP.

Nuff said.

I agree, mesmers have been terrorizing total noobs for far too long. Perhaps make them do 80% less damage to players who have played for under 100 hours.

Mesmer is a braindead easy to pick up hard to screw up class. Even if Mesmer was the most unviable class right now, it will never compare to how bad Warrior was when Frenzy/Quickness got nerfed and that’s all they had going for them.

But other classes are more rewarding for when you get good at the game.

I would strongly urge the OP to play a few games with different Mesmer specs just to gain some perspective from the other side of the fence. Engi, Warrior and Necro are advantageous matchups for a competent shatter Mesmer, because all three classes can be ranged and kited to death if the Mesmer plays smart. So the OP getting rekt on an Engi is par for the course, really.

From a top-tier tPvP standpoint Mesmer is not even really viable right now, and it takes very good personal skill and team coordination to be successful with a Mesmer in a team comp. Most teams currently run Celestial bruiser comps with Eles and Engis that have very few if any bad individual matchups and can rotate with their eyes closed. By comparison, a team with a Mesmer benefits from superior team mobility with portal, but it takes exceptional coordination to pull off. Most teams take the virgin route to shinies.

As for stealth and Thieves in general, I would only say that stealth is only one part of the perceived issue. The primary reason that Thieves destroy other zerker classes is because they can initiate and disengage fights at will, which is something no other class can currently do. But this is nothing new, really, Thieves have been sitting on top of the zerker totem pole since the game came out and people learned to play, and even more so since S/D Thieves became a thing in 2013.

To recap, I would urge the OP to play about 100 games on Mesmer and then revisit this thread. See if you still feel the same way. And if you feel like exacting bloody vengeance on the Mesmer population, roll an S/D Thief and go ham.

Maybe You just suck? Mesmer is not op
Probably u cant find the right one between all the Clones or it Takes to Long until u find the right one

I don’t agree.
As a new PvP player, I have been trying to play all those so-called meta builds for the past few weeks. Among them, I actually found mesmers and thieves hardest to play. These two happen to be the profession that has the most stealth skills.

I suggest OP to return to PvE if he can not kill mesmer with engineer

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

You won’t even take the effort to play a class yourself and yet you demand that the devs undertake a study to “prove” that your anecdotal theory is incorrect?

Is there anything I can call that attitude that won’t get me banned from the forums?

NoNameNoob.9758:

Maybe You just suck?

This.

/thread

8/10, need more personal exemples but the 5 warriors team was quite funny. The trolling is pretty successful, though you should add more caps and “!” to make your point.

Nightshade.5924:

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

On the off-chance that you’re not trolling – the death counter you are proposing is interesting, but it is far too simplistic a metric to be relied on as a gauge for the efficacy of any given class. No development action should ever be taken based on such a narrow metric. Even moreso because our competitive game type currently is conquest, and killing players, while certainly one way to win a match, is not always the most advantageous path to victory. A death counter alone says nothing about class viability in conquest. A lot of other data needs to be considered.

Aereniel.7356:

Nightshade.5924:

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

On the off-chance that you’re not trolling – the death counter you are proposing is interesting, but it is far too simplistic a metric to be relied on as a gauge for the efficacy of any given class. No development action should ever be taken based on such a narrow metric. Even moreso because our competitive game type currently is conquest, and killing players, while certainly one way to win a match, is not always the most advantageous path to victory. A death counter alone says nothing about class viability in conquest. A lot of other data needs to be considered.

Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Bunker characters die more than anyone else, but their success is in how long they can stay alive and on point each time they respawn, regardless of how many enemy players are bursting down on them. Sure, mesmers might die less than warriors on average, but mesmers in PVP are usually roaming between points trying to burst someone down on a point then run to the next point to help in fights, not stay and bunk the point themselves. That’s why they have stealth and portals and blink.

“Don’t chase the squirrel.” That’s a good pvp lesson for you. If you’re mad because you chased a thief or a mesmer all the way across the map to his zerg then died, or died before you even made it to a point, it’s because he’s doing his job but you aren’t doing yours. Usually, if you’re fighting on point and focusing on what you’re supposed to do without being kited around, you can stand a better chance in a duel against a thief or a mesmer, or possibly hold out long enough until your team comes to help you. Even if you do lose to them, you were still supporting your team by fighting on point as long as you could.

you forget you dont need to kill zerk class like thief or mesmer in tpvp
if you pressure them a bit they will disengage and run away leaving you capping or holding the point
i am also rarely kill mesmer in tpvp if he choose to disengage as i focus more on capping and holding

if i role thief or mesmer my role is to do 2v1 fast or cap unguard points fast or decap it
i dont try to do 1v2 or 1v1 unless i see i can win fast with out lossing points to my team

Stealth/Thief/Mesmer is the ultimate noob check

I just hope people realize that if you’re getting absolutely rolled by a Mesmer, they’re not only working harder than you are to achieve this, but they’ve also dedicated insane amounts of time to a class that still has very little in terms of a role that they can perform that no other class can outside of slotting in portal. I.e. they’re a better player than yourself. But hell they worked for it.

There are no “cheese” builds. Each build was selected by the designers to be the way it is, for a reason.

Saying “your build is cheese” is just you saying “you beat me and you must have had an unfair advantage”.

Mesmers are hard to play against if you are used to playing “see it, smash it”.

Yasha.5963:

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

You won’t even take the effort to play a class yourself and yet you demand that the devs undertake a study to “prove” that your anecdotal theory is incorrect?

Is there anything I can call that attitude that won’t get me banned from the forums?

^^^

Nightshade.5924:

I’ve been playing PvP for over a year. And I’m finally to the point of saying enough. Enough of mesmers killing me all the time. Enough of mesmers taking two or three players to kill. Enough of losing time and time again to teams w/ stealth player
superiority.

There already is a counter category that tracks how many kills a particular account has. What needs to happen is this. The Devs NEED to create a “killed” tracker. There needs to be a counter that tracks each and every “death” in PvP. By toon type category. Then a breakdown should be done in regards to percentages and frequency.

Then after a month the results need to be analyzed and ideally, published for general consumption. I am SICK AND TIRED of people saying that “oh, look at the playoff boards. You don’t see any mesmers there…” What MY individual experience tells me is that neither my warrior, my engineer, OR my necro can routinely KILL a Mesmer.

In FACT, I almost NEVER kill a Mesmer by myself. Unlike warriors or guardians, which my eng routinely eats for breakfast. Unlike rangers, necros, engs and thieves. Mesmers are the one class that in PvP that I perceive to be bulletproof.

So this will not only settle the argument of Mesmer invincibility once and for all, BUT should ALSO should show that STEALTH classes have an UNFAIR advantage in PvP.

Nuff said.

WOW OP……………. . You have a serious case of just not knowing the classes.
1. Practice
2. Learn to counter them
3. Practice
4. Practice
……
86. Practice
87. Profit

I am a Necro with 99 problems and a Mesmer ain’t 1. You do realize the like 4 LB’s on your necro will kill a Mesmer right( 2 if they glass)? How hard is that.

You need to learn the Mezmer class and Thief class, to figure out how to beat them. Simple as that. Find someone that plays them all the time and duel the crap out of them until you figure it out.

This was the worst “Hold my hand while I go potty” thread I have seen yet. You should have just created one asking for help and input……………..

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

Fun fact: A few mesmers and myself formed an all-mesmer team. We were all pretty decent in our respective builds. In our match, we happened to be up against an all-warrior team in Khylo. It was funny, we all laughed about the chances of that happening. Then, we fought, and we lost. Can you explain this is for any reason other than simply being out played?

OP you have been playing over a year the wrong ways. This game requires a lot of learning of other class rotations. Without that, you cannot win.

Nightshade.5924:

I’ve been playing PvP for over a year.

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP says OP lies) or PvP were hotjoins, but who cares

As much as I dislike playing against mesmers I just can’t think that they are OP. I certainly don’t know the “ins and outs” of the class, I tried to play one, but didn’t much care for it. Much of my problem is finding the right one to target and kill, although I am getting better at it. But I have beaten more then a few, and have lost to more then I care to admit. They are by no means unbeatable, and largely remain more of an irritation, but deadly if ignored completely.

pdavis.8031:

As much as I dislike playing against mesmers I just can’t think that they are OP. I certainly don’t know the “ins and outs” of the class, I tried to play one, but didn’t much care for it. Much of my problem is finding the right one to target and kill, although I am getting better at it. But I have beaten more then a few, and have lost to more then I care to admit. They are by no means unbeatable, and largely remain more of an irritation, but deadly if ignored completely.

First step, learning to locate. Then can you worry about their attacks and rotations. Location is key and is very easy to spot. Clones only run forward. They do not strafe, back step, dodge roll,, rotate or cast spells other than what the rest of them are casting. An irritation is definitely more of a correct word for it. Practice makes perfect!

GhOst.4019:

pdavis.8031:

As much as I dislike playing against mesmers I just can’t think that they are OP. I certainly don’t know the “ins and outs” of the class, I tried to play one, but didn’t much care for it. Much of my problem is finding the right one to target and kill, although I am getting better at it. But I have beaten more then a few, and have lost to more then I care to admit. They are by no means unbeatable, and largely remain more of an irritation, but deadly if ignored completely.

First step, learning to locate. Then can you worry about their attacks and rotations. Location is key and is very easy to spot. Clones only run forward. They do not strafe, back step, dodge roll,, rotate or cast spells other than what the rest of them are casting. An irritation is definitely more of a correct word for it. Practice makes perfect!

ooo I was not aware of that. I’ll look for it. I’ve also noticed that the original will have any signets on them whereas the clones won’t. That has helped me quite a bit. But yeah, practice makes perfect.

pdavis.8031:

GhOst.4019:

pdavis.8031:

As much as I dislike playing against mesmers I just can’t think that they are OP. I certainly don’t know the “ins and outs” of the class, I tried to play one, but didn’t much care for it. Much of my problem is finding the right one to target and kill, although I am getting better at it. But I have beaten more then a few, and have lost to more then I care to admit. They are by no means unbeatable, and largely remain more of an irritation, but deadly if ignored completely.

First step, learning to locate. Then can you worry about their attacks and rotations. Location is key and is very easy to spot. Clones only run forward. They do not strafe, back step, dodge roll,, rotate or cast spells other than what the rest of them are casting. An irritation is definitely more of a correct word for it. Practice makes perfect!

ooo I was not aware of that. I’ll look for it. I’ve also noticed that the original will have any signets on them whereas the clones won’t. That has helped me quite a bit. But yeah, practice makes perfect.

Just watch some Mesmer videos and obviously you will be watching the POV of the player. You can then see how much different they are and things to look for. If 4 Mesmer (clones) are standing there casting and 1 is standing doing nothing, that’s your guy too. Clones are brainless AI that all follow the exact same pattern. They don’t jump or weave baskets either. I think I did see a couple clones playing patty cake once but that could have just been in my head.

Also as you said about the signets is correct. Clones WILL NOT have the same buffs/ conditions as the real player.

“Stealth classes are OP. But I have no problem with thieves.”

“I refuse to learn or understand how Mesmer work because I hate them so much!
Despite not knowing how they play or work I consider them in need of revision. The entire class is cheat-heavy!”

OP I mean no disrespect, but emotions and ignorance are making your life harder than it needs to be. Yes. What you are displaying is sheer ignorance and nothing will change for you until you learn to accept that. There’s been excellent advise for you in this thread regarding Mesmers and plenty of resources to learn to deal with them.

You’ve went out of your way to vent your frustration, good, now take these replies and make them worth something; come out of this thread wiser than when you entered. Please.

Aereniel.7356:

Nightshade.5924:

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

On the off-chance that you’re not trolling – the death counter you are proposing is interesting, but it is far too simplistic a metric to be relied on as a gauge for the efficacy of any given class. No development action should ever be taken based on such a narrow metric. Even moreso because our competitive game type currently is conquest, and killing players, while certainly one way to win a match, is not always the most advantageous path to victory. A death counter alone says nothing about class viability in conquest. A lot of other data needs to be considered.

Narrow metric. Hmm. Simplistic. Hmm. Nope. Can’t agree w/ you. AGAIN… if a class is dying significantly less than others according to a statistical matrix, which is what I am proposing, then that is one of the STONGEST INDICATORS possible that said class is OP. This is PvP. We are TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER. In a nice politically correct fashion.

And if a given class IS NOT DYING, then it must be asked “why?” Does it have powers/abilities that give it unfair advantages (mesmers?) Is it super tough (guardians, engs, ele bunker) Is it able to AVOID death, say thru stealth (rangers, thieves)

And I must disagree about dying. If in a given match I die, hmm, say 10 times, and YOU die 5 times, YOU must be considered the more effective player If For No Other Reason that you are spending LESS TIME RESPAWNING. And thusly can influence the outcome of the game more.

Anton.1769:

Nightshade.5924:

I’ve been playing PvP for over a year.

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP says OP lies) or PvP were hotjoins, but who cares

Seems this page only goes to 1000. Or so. I’ve never claimed to be a ranked player. I pug. Period. I have about a 45% batting average w/ my eng, my necro and warrior. Combined. My eng is closer to 50% wins to loss, my warrior is about 43%. And I’ve played about 900 matches or so.

And I’m running exotic gear only on my toons.

Hope that helps mate.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

“Stealth classes are OP. But I have no problem with thieves.”

“I refuse to learn or understand how Mesmer work because I hate them so much!
Despite not knowing how they play or work I consider them in need of revision. The entire class is cheat-heavy!”

---

OP I mean no disrespect, but emotions and ignorance are making your life harder than it needs to be. Yes. What you are displaying is sheer ignorance and nothing will change for you until you learn to accept that. There’s been excellent advise for you in this thread regarding Mesmers and plenty of resources to learn to deal with them.

You’ve went out of your way to vent your frustration, good, now take these replies and make them worth something; come out of this thread wiser than when you entered. Please.

Emotion has no part of this discussion. Except when all of you bring it in. I am DEMANDING numbers. Statistics. PROOF. Hard Evidence. And I WANT It published PUBLICALLY. So I can point to it and say “Well, mesmers are dying 1/3 the times of all the other classes. Seems OP to me.”

Or maybe it’ll be the other way. I doubt it, but that’s why the tracker. The numbers have NO pity, no remorse, No loyalty, NO reason to obfuscate or prevaricate.

And really, it should NOT be that hard for the devs to do this. They already track how many kills your account has overall. So to set it up so that the counters track by class should be a trivial exercise.

Shaogin.2679:

Yasha.5963:

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

You won’t even take the effort to play a class yourself and yet you demand that the devs undertake a study to “prove” that your anecdotal theory is incorrect?

Is there anything I can call that attitude that won’t get me banned from the forums?

^^^

SO according to you I should first delete one of my current toons OR buy a new slot just to try out a particular class. A class that I obviously dislike. Interesting. And just exactly WHY should I spend MY time and money in such an endeavor?

Now as for the DEVS… it is their RESPONSIBILITY to ensure a fair and fun game. To show evenhandedness, restraint. and equality in regards to players and by extension the toons that those players use in game. It’s in the job description. SO all I’m really asking for is Part of the DEVS job.

This is about providing and PROVING (or NOT proving?) that stealth classes, in particular, have a combat advantage in PvP. One would think that the DEVS, who purportedly are all about class balance and fairness in PvP, would WELCOME the challenge.

I mean, if I’m right, and say Mesmers die 1/2 as often as any other class in PvP, which is the pressure cooker of destruction, then this would be IRREFUTALBE PROOF that the class needs nerfing or revamping.

And say I’m wrong. Let’s say that I’m wrong and that Mesmers are dying TWICE as often as any other class. Then the DEVS could ramp up their damage, armor, hit points, what have you until this sad state of affairs was fixed.

But I’m fairly confident that I’m right. I’m just Demanding that the DEVS prove it. And then FIX the issue.

Nightshade.5924:

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

Well the problem is your argument is based on your personal experience, which you assume to be the general case. You’ve had several people respond to tell you that their own experience, as well as the de facto situation in pvp tournaments (which are viewable by anyone, so you can see for yourself), is completely different, and that mesmers and thieves aren’t considered all that powerful. Instead of calling you rude names, they advised you to make a mesmer and test your assertion (that mesmers are very hard to kill) empirically. It’s a very reasonable suggestion: testing your theories empirically is the scientific method, after all, which all modern knowledge and technology (including the computer you typed your post on) owes its existence to. So dismissing it out of hand just because you consider playing stealth-based classes (fully A QUARTER of the classes in this game) “cheating”, might seem to an impartial observer like deep down you know you’re wrong, and you’re afraid to discover that you just need to get better. It’s therefore unlikely to lead to people taking you more seriously, and certainly isn’t going to lead to ANet setting a bunch of gameplay programmers, network engineers, game designers, and UI designers into spending an aggreggate of several dozen hours (which the rest of us are paying for with our gem purchases, mind) implementing a half-baked suggestion you blurted out in an angry forum post.

However, because I’m nice, I’m gonna humour you and argue the inverse, ie. I’m going to assume that you’re right, just to show you that your argument isn’t just empirically wrong, but theoretically wrong too. Suppose then that if a “killed” counter is introduced, thieves and mesmers will be shown to have a much lower killed:kills ration than other classes. As in, maybe the average for other classes is 1:1 ratio of kills to killed, but thieves and mesmers get killed 0.5 times for each 1 kill they get.

What would that prove? Would it prove what you’re saying, that thieves and mesmers are just better? That they’re OP? That stealth needs to be toned down? Maybe. But read the following example and tell me if it’s also a feasible explanation:

Picture this: you’re guarding a point. Thief comes and tries to kill you. You nearly kill him, he stealths away. He comes to kill you again 30" later, you nearly kill him, he stealths away. Eventually , 10 minutes in, he actually manages to kill you, decaps your point. 30" later you come back, start fighting him, you nearly kill him, he stealths away. You recap your point. Game ends, your team wins.

What happened there from a “killed counter” perspective? The thief killed you once, and got killed 0 times himself. So if the thief has lots of matches like this, your proposed counter will show the thief to be OP. But what actually happened from a game perspective? You held the point against the thief the whole game, and won your team the match. So does that make thieves OP?

What I’m trying to say is that their being hard to kill doesn’t necesarilly mean they’re OP, it means they have great escapes! But every class has tradeoffs, and trust me, their abilities to disengage from fights well means they have a lot of other downsides, such as that they’re made of paper and will die if you sneeze on them in any sustained fight.

If you want to beat thieves easily, just go make a DPS guardian and watch them kill themselves on your retaliation. If you actually want to LEARN AND GET BETTER though, go play a thief/mesmer yourself.

Nightshade.5924:

And I must disagree about dying. If in a given match I die, hmm, say 10 times, and YOU die 5 times, YOU must be considered the more effective player If For No Other Reason that you are spending LESS TIME RESPAWNING. And thusly can influence the outcome of the game more.

And do you know what dies 0 times in PvP?

AFKers, PU Mesmers, and home point “bunkers” that never move.

Those must be infinitely more useful then right? Post a new thread asking the community how useful those are in conquest.

And then that pesky shatter mesmer who the enemy team treated as such a threat that they sent 2 players to lock him down, killing him 15 times in the process while the rest of his team went on with their 4v3 advantage? That must be a useless mesmer right?

Nightshade.5924:

Shaogin.2679:

Yasha.5963:

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

example: say that 1,000,000 people play warriors on a given day. Say that all of those warriors die 3,000,000 times on that day. So that’s an average death rate of 3 per player. Now say 500,00 people play mesmers in a day. Say that only 500.000 mesmers die that day. That’s an average of ONE death per player.

And that is important. Deaths (stomps) equal points. If a class is getting killed significantly LESS than other classes, then teams utilizing that class have a small but real advantage.

To extend my example from above, if one team had 5 warriors and that team faced off against 5 mesmers (ick!), then the second team would likely have a 50 point advantage in kills alone. Not to mention the fact that since the warriors are dying MORE frequently, the warrior team is likely to be losing point control, if for no other reason than they are respawning.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

You won’t even take the effort to play a class yourself and yet you demand that the devs undertake a study to “prove” that your anecdotal theory is incorrect?

Is there anything I can call that attitude that won’t get me banned from the forums?

^^^

SO according to you I should first delete one of my current toons OR buy a new slot just to try out a particular class. A class that I obviously dislike. Interesting. And just exactly WHY should I spend MY time and money in such an endeavor?

Now as for the DEVS… it is their RESPONSIBILITY to ensure a fair and fun game. To show evenhandedness, restraint. and equality in regards to players and by extension the toons that those players use in game. It’s in the job description. SO all I’m really asking for is Part of the DEVS job.

This is about providing and PROVING (or NOT proving?) that stealth classes, in particular, have a combat advantage in PvP. One would think that the DEVS, who purportedly are all about class balance and fairness in PvP, would WELCOME the challenge.

I mean, if I’m right, and say Mesmers die 1/2 as often as any other class in PvP, which is the pressure cooker of destruction, then this would be IRREFUTALBE PROOF that the class needs nerfing or revamping.

And say I’m wrong. Let’s say that I’m wrong and that Mesmers are dying TWICE as often as any other class. Then the DEVS could ramp up their damage, armor, hit points, what have you until this sad state of affairs was fixed.

But I’m fairly confident that I’m right. I’m just Demanding that the DEVS prove it. And then FIX the issue.

Problem here is that you’re arguing against a class you have no idea about. If you’re not willing to prove yourself with numbers and experience, why should the Devs who think mesmer’s fine waste their time proving it for you? You have the ability to try or test it, yet don’t. And instead of asking about things, assuming yourself ignorant, you make claims without evidence then demand evidence. This will cause problems. So, you can ask for a tracker, fine, but do not presume to know what the data will mean. Be modest, at the least, instead of blatantly and ignorantly arrogant.

The devs would already have the data you are talking about, and they would use it for their own balancing analysis.

The truth is that these classes are not OP in PvP, you just don’t know how to play against them.

manveruppd.7601:

Nightshade.5924:

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

Well the problem is your argument is based on your personal experience, which you assume to be the general case. You’ve had several people respond to tell you that their own experience, as well as the de facto situation in pvp tournaments (which are viewable by anyone, so you can see for yourself), is completely different, and that mesmers and thieves aren’t considered all that powerful. Instead of calling you rude names, they advised you to make a mesmer and test your assertion (that mesmers are very hard to kill) empirically. It’s a very reasonable suggestion: testing your theories empirically is the scientific method, after all, which all modern knowledge and technology (including the computer you typed your post on) owes its existence to. So dismissing it out of hand just because you consider playing stealth-based classes (fully A QUARTER of the classes in this game) “cheating”, might seem to an impartial observer like deep down you know you’re wrong, and you’re afraid to discover that you just need to get better. It’s therefore unlikely to lead to people taking you more seriously, and certainly isn’t going to lead to ANet setting a bunch of gameplay programmers, network engineers, game designers, and UI designers into spending an aggreggate of several dozen hours (which the rest of us are paying for with our gem purchases, mind) implementing a half-baked suggestion you blurted out in an angry forum post.

However, because I’m nice, I’m gonna humour you and argue the inverse, ie. I’m going to assume that you’re right, just to show you that your argument isn’t just empirically wrong, but theoretically wrong too. Suppose then that if a “killed” counter is introduced, thieves and mesmers will be shown to have a much lower killed:kills ration than other classes. As in, maybe the average for other classes is 1:1 ratio of kills to killed, but thieves and mesmers get killed 0.5 times for each 1 kill they get.

What would that prove? Would it prove what you’re saying, that thieves and mesmers are just better? That they’re OP? That stealth needs to be toned down? Maybe. But read the following example and tell me if it’s also a feasible explanation:

Picture this: you’re guarding a point. Thief comes and tries to kill you. You nearly kill him, he stealths away. He comes to kill you again 30" later, you nearly kill him, he stealths away. Eventually , 10 minutes in, he actually manages to kill you, decaps your point. 30" later you come back, start fighting him, you nearly kill him, he stealths away. You recap your point. Game ends, your team wins.

What happened there from a “killed counter” perspective? The thief killed you once, and got killed 0 times himself. So if the thief has lots of matches like this, your proposed counter will show the thief to be OP. But what actually happened from a game perspective? You held the point against the thief the whole game, and won your team the match. So does that make thieves OP?

What I’m trying to say is that their being hard to kill doesn’t necesarilly mean they’re OP, it means they have great escapes! But every class has tradeoffs, and trust me, their abilities to disengage from fights well means they have a lot of other downsides, such as that they’re made of paper and will die if you sneeze on them in any sustained fight.

If you want to beat thieves easily, just go make a DPS guardian and watch them kill themselves on your retaliation. If you actually want to LEARN AND GET BETTER though, go play a thief/mesmer yourself.

While I acknowledge that you have a point, that is WHY I want a STATISTICAL SAMPLE. There are millions of players in GW2. Most of those millions hopefully play PvP, if for no other reason than they want to get the daily points.

A STATISTICAL sample, taken over two weeks to a month, will smooth and balance the effects of behaviors such as you have described here. After all, the tactics you describe could be used by a Mesmer, a thief, and to some extent a ranger. Or even ANY class, for that matter. For instance, a warrior could get down to say 1/2 health, turn around and run away. Using his greatsword maneuvers to get away from you.

And thieves aren’t an issue for my eng. They taste good spread on toast after they’ve been flambéed. I just checked my stats.. now up to a total of 1000 matches. And the ONE class that I have always had issues w/ killing are mesmers. Empirically.

Sube Dai.8496:

The devs would already have the data you are talking about, and they would use it for their own balancing analysis.

The truth is that these classes are not OP in PvP, you just don’t know how to play against them.

IF the DEVS have the numbers, then they should publish them. Let them SHOW that I’m confused and wrong. OR show that I’m right.

Dondagora.9645:

Nightshade.5924:

Shaogin.2679:

Yasha.5963:

Nightshade.5924:

Blackhat.4016:

Just 2 things I would suggest:

1) Play a mesmer before complaining. It’s much easier to beat them after understanding what they do and what they can’t do.

2) Mesmer > thief doesn’t make any sense because thiefs have even more stealth (unless you play against S/D thiefs 24/7).

Besides that stealth = enemy can cap the point.

I refuse to waste a character slot on a class that I consider cheat heavy and in need of revision. I have a eng, a necro, a warrior, a ele, and a ranger. I only PvP right now w/ the first three, still getting my ranger tactics down.

But the main point here, that everyone seems to be avoiding, is that I am requesting the DEVS to PROVE ME WRONG. By creating a “killed in pvp” tracker and publishing the results. By showing with hard numbers and inarguable proof that, for instance, mesmers die 1/2 as often as warriors.

This can be simply done by tracking each class, recording how many times they die in a given series or set of matches, or by sheer numbers, and then calculating the average amount of deaths.

I have the feeling that ONCE this tracker is created and published, we will finally see what I have been saying for over six months now. That mesmers are harder to kill in PvP than almost any other class, guardians possibly excepted.

cheers

You won’t even take the effort to play a class yourself and yet you demand that the devs undertake a study to “prove” that your anecdotal theory is incorrect?

Is there anything I can call that attitude that won’t get me banned from the forums?

^^^

SO according to you I should first delete one of my current toons OR buy a new slot just to try out a particular class. A class that I obviously dislike. Interesting. And just exactly WHY should I spend MY time and money in such an endeavor?

Now as for the DEVS… it is their RESPONSIBILITY to ensure a fair and fun game. To show evenhandedness, restraint. and equality in regards to players and by extension the toons that those players use in game. It’s in the job description. SO all I’m really asking for is Part of the DEVS job.

This is about providing and PROVING (or NOT proving?) that stealth classes, in particular, have a combat advantage in PvP. One would think that the DEVS, who purportedly are all about class balance and fairness in PvP, would WELCOME the challenge.

I mean, if I’m right, and say Mesmers die 1/2 as often as any other class in PvP, which is the pressure cooker of destruction, then this would be IRREFUTALBE PROOF that the class needs nerfing or revamping.

And say I’m wrong. Let’s say that I’m wrong and that Mesmers are dying TWICE as often as any other class. Then the DEVS could ramp up their damage, armor, hit points, what have you until this sad state of affairs was fixed.

But I’m fairly confident that I’m right. I’m just Demanding that the DEVS prove it. And then FIX the issue.

Problem here is that you’re arguing against a class you have no idea about. If you’re not willing to prove yourself with numbers and experience, why should the Devs who think mesmer’s fine waste their time proving it for you? You have the ability to try or test it, yet don’t. And instead of asking about things, assuming yourself ignorant, you make claims without evidence then demand evidence. This will cause problems. So, you can ask for a tracker, fine, but do not presume to know what the data will mean. Be modest, at the least, instead of blatantly and ignorantly arrogant.

Sure I have an idea. You seem to have missed the part where I said that MY eng, My warrior, MY necro ALL have trouble terminating those annoying pesky mesmers. They dump out tons of identical targets on what seems to be little to no cooldown, they turn invisible when they realize that you’ve actually targeted THEM vice one of their decoys, and they can turn you into a Moa for about 10 seconds and burn you down while you have NO access to ANY of your normal protections and abilities.

I DON’T need to play a class to know its strengths and capabilities. I just Need to PLAY against it. Like say for 1000 matches. Just hit that mark today. This constant insistence that I start a Mesmer and take the time to run it up to 80, THAT’S arrogant. It presumes I can’t keep a notepad by my computer, for instance, and write down how many times I actually drop a Mesmer. By myself. And in how many matches that actually occurs. Just as an example.

And Yes, I will be able to understand tracker data just fine. Suffered through enough statistics courses to muddle it out.

Why do you want numbers about the masses? The statics will be different as skill rises.

If you look at ANet’s balancing tendencies they balance around high tier pvp mostly. In High tier conquest thieves and mesmers are perfectly manageable.

In fact your statistics about the masses of the game are more likely to reveal that mesmers and thieves when played have more deaths per match, because they are higher risk.

Regardless of what the actual stats about the masses say though, it doesn’t matter, because the classes are balanced in high tier.

Additionally, you shouldn’t demand things in this manner. It’s better for you to learn the classes mechanics and understand what the vulnerabilities are, be that playing the profession yourself or getting a friend who plays it to talk to you about them and dueling them. That’s what anyone who wants to learn how fight something would do. It’s also way more logical than looking for an excuse to change how a profession plays for that entire playerbase just so one person gets appeased.

Nightshade.5924:

Narrow metric. Hmm. Simplistic. Hmm. Nope. Can’t agree w/ you. AGAIN… if a class is dying significantly less than others according to a statistical matrix, which is what I am proposing, then that is one of the STONGEST INDICATORS possible that said class is OP. This is PvP. We are TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER. In a nice politically correct fashion.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Killing players is what you perceive the game to be about, whereas the rest of the competitive GW2 tPvP community is playing conquest. And in conquest, you win by getting to the 500 point mark before the opposing team, or by having more points at the end of the 15-minute match than your opponents. Winning under said conditions requires map dominance, but killing players is only one way to achieve that goal, and not even the most efficient one in all cases. The team with less kills can win matches, sometimes even by a considerable point margin.

Expand your horizons and embrace the Mesmer within. And for Jebus’ sake stop obsessing about meaningless statistics. It’ll do you good.

Players are never “killed”.

They are just removed from the fight for 15 to 30 seconds.

They are moved to their side of the map, (where they might actually be needing to go at the moment.) Sometimes it is better to NOT kill them if a crucial fight is happening at their home point where they respawn.

Shockwave.1230:

Why do you want numbers about the masses? The statics will be different as skill rises.

If you look at ANet’s balancing tendencies they balance around high tier pvp mostly. In High tier conquest thieves and mesmers are perfectly manageable.

In fact your statistics about the masses of the game are more likely to reveal that mesmers and thieves when played have more deaths per match, because they are higher risk.

Regardless of what the actual stats about the masses say though, it doesn’t matter, because the classes are balanced in high tier.

Additionally, you shouldn’t demand things in this manner. It’s better for you to learn the classes mechanics and understand what the vulnerabilities are, be that playing the profession yourself or getting a friend who plays it to talk to you about them and dueling them. That’s what anyone who wants to learn how fight something would do. It’s also way more logical than looking for an excuse to change how a profession plays for that entire playerbase just so one person gets appeased.

Which is the point of USING A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. It balances and smooths the overall results by looking at EVERYONE, instead of focusing on an elite group of highly practiced players OR examining a bunch of players who only have 10 games under their belts. This takes SKILL, PRACTICE and EXPERIENCE OUT THE ARGUEMENT. And instead makes it about the particular class’s combat survivability under any conditions.

And once more….. 1000 PvP matches. That’s how many I have played as of my log off today. ONE THOUSAND. Sure, it’s probably not a patch on someone who LIVES for PvP and plays it exclusively. But it’s more than enough matches to LEARN how your own classes work and MORE IMPORTANTLY observe how to take down ANY and ALL opponents. OR, as in the case of mesmers, possibly identify an issue that ONLY a statistical review of defeats and defeat related numbers CAN CONFIRM OR DISPROVE.

I say again… let’s see the numbers. And see what they tell us. Let’s have concrete EVIDENCE and let’s STOP SPECULATING.

cheers.

The most entertaining thread I have read for long time.

And OP, if 20 people here telling you’re wrong and no one supports your point, don’t you think it means you’re wrong, purely statistically?

Nightshade.5924:

Which is the point of USING A STATISTICAL ANALYSIS.

~lot of nonsensical blabbering~

Your “STATISTICAL ANALYSIS” assumes some strong correlation between “not dying” and “being overpowered” in the context of Conquest PvP.

The rest of us have been connecting our palms to our foreheads while trying to tell you how false and misguided that assumption is.

In other words, we don’t really doubt that you’ll find mesmers (and thieves and other classes with decent disengage) don’t die that often. Nor do we care, because Conquest PvP is not about 1v1 duels.

PS: You think 10-20 seconds of respawn time is bad? DPS a mesmer til he is forced to disengage your point, and he’ll have wasted almost a full minute despite not dying: 15 running to his far point to fight you, 30 seconds fighting on a point you own, and 15 running back to some other fight.

Aereniel.7356:

Nightshade.5924:

Narrow metric. Hmm. Simplistic. Hmm. Nope. Can’t agree w/ you. AGAIN… if a class is dying significantly less than others according to a statistical matrix, which is what I am proposing, then that is one of the STONGEST INDICATORS possible that said class is OP. This is PvP. We are TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER. In a nice politically correct fashion.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Killing players is what you perceive the game to be about, whereas the rest of the competitive GW2 tPvP community is playing conquest. And in conquest, you win by getting to the 500 point mark before the opposing team, or by having more points at the end of the 15-minute match than your opponents. Winning under said conditions requires map dominance, but killing players is only one way to achieve that goal, and not even the most efficient one in all cases. The team with less kills can win matches, sometimes even by a considerable point margin.

Expand your horizons and embrace the Mesmer within. And for Jebus’ sake stop obsessing about meaningless statistics. It’ll do you good.

So it’s meaningless if say, Oh, guardians could kill every class indiscriminately, and never be defeated themselves? So You would be Okay with such a situation, where a team of 5 guardians could ONLY be possibly be defeated by a team of 5 other guardians?

Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. It sounds like you don’t believe in game balance, or believe in class balance, or believe in SCIENTIFIC METHOD. The statistics I have asked for REPEATEDLY will UNQUESTIONABLY AND INARGUEABLY establish whether or not MY THEORY about mesmers (and other stealthers) is correct. BUT NOTHING LESS WILL DO.

OH, and If you don’t think kills matter, try winning a match that has 2 eng’s holding a point w/ a guardian roving around w/ company taking the other points away. Have fun cause it’s REAL hard. I’ve been on both sides of that particular scenario… it’s best to be on the team w/ the forted up engineers.

I get that you don’t want to delete your characters, so that reason alone is enough. I get that, at least. Adding things like “I hate it, so I won’t play it” adds a gleam of ignorance to your statements. It still does add a good bit of ignorance, but at least it’s more of an ignorance that can’t be helped kind of deal.

You don’t need to create a mesmer to understand it, but if you’re having trouble with it, it helps to play it. I never played a thief or any of the other 6 classes in PvP really[Engi for a single match. It was trolling with turrets. Nothing mechanically challenging.], but I learned to beat them eventually by asking people in-game and on the forums.

Though, you know what? Sure. It actually doesn’t matter much if the devs give a tracker. It can show data saying mesmers die less, meaning either mesmers are imbalanced[probably not the case] or that the mesmer player base is just more skilled. Or, it can say that mesmers die, on average, about as much as everyone else or more, thus ending this discussion. I doubt the devs will do this no matter how much you ask[unless one’s feeling a little ballsy and decides “what the heck. I’ll do it~”], but I say go ahead and let’s see. No downsides really, since I[like you] am confident in my opinion.

Eyia Hellhide.7320:

The most entertaining thread I have read for long time.

And OP, if 20 people here telling you’re wrong and no one supports your point, don’t you think it means you’re wrong, purely statistically?

Seeing as we have NO N U M B E R S to support or deny anything said here, I can safely say NO. A GOOD statistic involves, at a minimum, 10,000 test subjects. Millions is MUCH better. So at a minimum we’re about 9,980 people short of any statistical conclusion.

Nightshade.5924:

Eyia Hellhide.7320:

The most entertaining thread I have read for long time.

And OP, if 20 people here telling you’re wrong and no one supports your point, don’t you think it means you’re wrong, purely statistically?

Seeing as we have NO N U M B E R S to support or deny anything said here, I can safely say NO. A GOOD statistic involves, at a minimum, 10,000 test subjects. Millions is MUCH better. So at a minimum we’re about 9,980 people short of any statistical conclusion.

Haha okay. I will wait.

Nightshade.5924:

Aereniel.7356:

Nightshade.5924:

Narrow metric. Hmm. Simplistic. Hmm. Nope. Can’t agree w/ you. AGAIN… if a class is dying significantly less than others according to a statistical matrix, which is what I am proposing, then that is one of the STONGEST INDICATORS possible that said class is OP. This is PvP. We are TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER. In a nice politically correct fashion.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Killing players is what you perceive the game to be about, whereas the rest of the competitive GW2 tPvP community is playing conquest. And in conquest, you win by getting to the 500 point mark before the opposing team, or by having more points at the end of the 15-minute match than your opponents. Winning under said conditions requires map dominance, but killing players is only one way to achieve that goal, and not even the most efficient one in all cases. The team with less kills can win matches, sometimes even by a considerable point margin.

Expand your horizons and embrace the Mesmer within. And for Jebus’ sake stop obsessing about meaningless statistics. It’ll do you good.

So it’s meaningless if say, Oh, guardians could kill every class indiscriminately, and never be defeated themselves? So You would be Okay with such a situation, where a team of 5 guardians could ONLY be possibly be defeated by a team of 5 other guardians?

Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. It sounds like you don’t believe in game balance, or believe in class balance, or believe in SCIENTIFIC METHOD. The statistics I have asked for REPEATEDLY will UNQUESTIONABLY AND INARGUEABLY establish whether or not MY THEORY about mesmers (and other stealthers) is correct. BUT NOTHING LESS WILL DO.

OH, and If you don’t think kills matter, try winning a match that has 2 eng’s holding a point w/ a guardian roving around w/ company taking the other points away. Have fun cause it’s REAL hard. I’ve been on both sides of that particular scenario… it’s best to be on the team w/ the forted up engineers.

Since Mesmer is so op it should be easy to beat every team with a 5 man mesmer team or?

Seriously its a l2p or go uninstall issue….

Nightshade.5924:

Wooords

Brilliant! 8/10 for trolling, and shame on me for being oh so very slooow on the uptake. Honest to god I took you seriously at first. Needs moar caps, tho. Carry on…