Guild Wars 2

Tbh I’m kinda baffled by thief changes.

anet nerfed to the ground (rightfully) S/D, which has became a lot more skilfull than old S/D ( tho steal is still TOO STRONG)

Without addressing the biggest offender in thief kitten nal, BUT EVEN BUFFING IT:

STEALTH

Stealth has been a problem since start, teams started camping stealth with thieves and instagibbing people with stealth openers as soon as they discovered the trick, even more now thief has way more damage/sustain thx to sigils and runes (whose should be removed asap anyway, terrible design).

The biggest buff for thief right now will be being able to buils for things that on the old system would have meant stats loss (vit, healing power, condi damage).

Full zerk stat + utility from traitlines.

current meta build (panic strike) will became godmode.

not only camping stealth for 10+ secs is uber lame, but also leads to thw boring game play we see every kittening tournament or esl cups: move with thief, spam blast finishers on BP, play the guessing game till someone insta dies.

stealth has ZERO counterplay right now aside some silly hard counter with 0 practical sense (new lock in trait for engi) or use (sic em for rangers).

since it’s clear u can’t think of proper counterplay for stealth, it’s time to AT LEAST reduce stealth capping to something like 6 secs and add REVEAL as soon as u exit stealth, hit or not

that way stealth will be used as a reposition tool (like it was meant to be and like it was when game launched), not as a way to avoid any source of damage till important cds come back, or (way worse) as a way to instagib people with your team with 0 skill/counteplay involved.

thx for reading, kappabye

Guild Wars 2 expansion, " Pretend Nothing Happened "

But you didn’t mention anything about adding health, armor, evasions, or invulnerabilities. Thieves are too squishy already. Stealth is a defensive tool.

When you start talking about giving the thief some COVER, only then should you start talking about removing CONCEALMENT.

There is plenty of counterplay. You just won’t use them.

I would also like to point out that you’ve given no explaination as to why something is godmode or what have you. Most of it is because you say so, so you really don’t have much of a point to begin with.

This thread is stupid and is going to turn into a flame war in about 10 comments. Just watch.

I wonder if OP has read any of the incoming class changes or is just a typical lrn2player who comes to the forums crying about how they can’t beat someone who uses stealth?

My first suggestion, read Engi changes and then roll an engi with lock on. Completely catered to cryhards such as yourself, OP. The most rewarded passive gameplay towards stealth I’ve seen!

6 seconds of reveal and 10 stacks of vulnerability for simply hitting someone who’s in stealth on a stupidly low ICD! This I find amusing (or less sarcastically, disgusting) because it’s yet again another form of passive gameplay which is rewarded more than active gameplay.

#Anet’Esports’

Jesiah.2457:

I wonder if OP has read any of the incoming class changes or is just a typical lrn2player who comes to the forums crying about how they can’t beat someone who uses stealth?

My first suggestion, read Engi changes and then roll an engi with lock on. Completely catered to cryhards such as yourself, OP. The most rewarded passive gameplay towards stealth I’ve seen!

6 seconds of reveal and 10 stacks of vulnerability for simply hitting someone who’s in stealth on a stupidly low ICD! This I find amusing (or less sarcastically, disgusting) because it’s yet again another form of passive gameplay which is rewarded more than active gameplay.

#Anet’Esports’

That’s exactly what I was meaning.

Lock on trait is stupid, this is not counterplay (there’s still none, since counterplay means everyone can do something about it with, not some specific professions only), it is a hard counter which is equally bad to stealth.

Stealth duration for thieves is too long and it’s a fact, especially now that they’re emcouraged camping stealth (more ini, health regen, damage reduction, condi cleanse, ALL PASSIVELY), and from a team point it favours stealth team openers which are terrible design with no counterplay involved for the opponent.

This game needs serious stealth counterplay, not some stupid trait for the blessed kids (engies) that totally shuts down a whole (altough broken) mechanic.

since stealth in thia game is a serious problem, nerfing duration and giving revelead when stealth ends regardless of hitting something is the best way to fix this stuff.

Taking stealth away from the Thief would be like taking an Elementalist’s water trait line. The class would simply be broken without it. It serves as the most important aspect of a Thief’s defensive play along with their mobility from the various shadowsteps they have.

OP … you did a really good job bringing out my inner scumbag. It would have been nice if you had just got to that point right away to prevent me from being one. And so, I’m sorry. :l

You have a good point though, several really … and I’m sure there are ways that stealth could at least have something done to it to offer some counter play, or rewarding counter play against a stealth player. Rather than, as you put it, giving it only to the ‘blessed’ players who roll engineer. It really does seem a lot like class favoritism.

And really, it is yet another example of Anet rewarding passive game play far more than active game play while providing no actual counter play for the stealth classes who have to go up against it and does nothing to help alleviate stealth issues players have with stealth in the first place.

Lock on is literally something that requires no thought, effort or skill in order to profit from it for such a long duration with quite a low ICD, on top of the fact they already have skills to keep a thief from stealthing in the first place. It will also completely nullify a utility skill, Shadow Refuge, while also being able to completely shut out an entire trait line for thieves as well as the core mechanics of thief which allows them to perform well in PvP in the first place, on top of similar issues for mesmer. And all of this can be done completely passively and mindlessly, while leaving other classes to still have the same issues with stealth overall.

The best thing I can honestly think of to help deal with stealth issues is something like losing 0.5 to 1 seconds of stealth duration per stealth attack that “lands” on a blocking / invulnerable target, as well evading the attack too. This IMO would need something like an ICD of 0.5 to 1 second for the case of something like a mesmer or thief using Pistol mainhand. Quick examples would be sneak attack can easily show like 5 blocked attacks, if there’s no ICD that’s auto unstealth rather than just shortening duration and that would hurt trait lines such kitten. And for mesmers, I just imagine what if they attempted a shatter while stealthed and it was evaded / blocked / invulnerable, that would also be auto unstealth instead of simply shortening the duration.

But when combined with the kind of things engineers are getting, the above suggested change would become overkill or very much on the road to it.

As far as S/D & Acro thieves … I’m actually happy about those changes, acro by itself with vigor was obnoxious on it’s own for how many dodge rolls that would provide, and when coupled with something like S/D and withdraw, the evades become exceptionally obnoxious and no fun to fight against. However, Anet really over did it with nerfing acro by removing the damage bonus it provided, which I truly think was / is necessary to make that play style viable. That damage loss is going to make the line far too weak after the nerfs it’s receiving on top of global vigor changes.

I really wish Anet honestly cared about the state of PvP in this game and had the ability to innovate rather than just brainlessly dump more reveal mechanics onto a class that already has reveal mechanics, and then take it one step further by making it totally easy mode passive too. They do so little thinking when it comes to actual counter play, it seems.

Hendrix.9763:

Taking stealth away from the Thief would be like taking an Elementalist’s water trait line. The class would simply be broken without it. It serves as the most important aspect of a Thief’s defensive play along with their mobility from the various shadowsteps they have.

Actually the change is more like this:
-Removing poison’s healing reduction to healing, so there is no actual way to counter it.
-Make healing able to be spammed every 3-4 seconds
-Give one class in particular a 100% healing reduction for 8 seconds, on an automatic proc. That’s not letting people play against it, the person applying the healing reduction doesn’t have to do anything at all except attack.

Being able to damage through stealth isn’t a counter, that’s like saying damage is a counter to healing :/. OP has a valid point but lots of people are just strawmanning it.

Sunflowers.1729:

Hendrix.9763:

Taking stealth away from the Thief would be like taking an Elementalist’s water trait line. The class would simply be broken without it. It serves as the most important aspect of a Thief’s defensive play along with their mobility from the various shadowsteps they have.

Actually the change is more like this:
-Removing poison’s healing reduction to healing, so there is no actual way to counter it.
-Make healing able to be spammed every 3-4 seconds
-Give one class in particular a 100% healing reduction for 8 seconds, on an automatic proc. That’s not letting people play against it, the person applying the healing reduction doesn’t have to do anything at all except attack.

Being able to damage through stealth isn’t a counter, that’s like saying damage is a counter to healing :/. OP has a valid point but lots of people are just strawmanning it.

does thief have high access to protection or multiple heals?

here is the thing: if they nerf stealth even more they will just have to buff thieves otherwise… the way i see it, thieves would just turn into warriors wearing leather armor and using dagger instead of GS….

given same skill level, thieves already can’t kill most of popular classes/builds by themself; stacking thieves just increases chances of los exponentially…. sure let’s nerf the class, let’s add more counters…. because we certanly need another class that is not used in meta and top pvp…. i mean cmon, ppl still dont run celestial trio exclusively , gotta fix it!

Cynz.9437:

Sunflowers.1729:

Hendrix.9763:

Taking stealth away from the Thief would be like taking an Elementalist’s water trait line. The class would simply be broken without it. It serves as the most important aspect of a Thief’s defensive play along with their mobility from the various shadowsteps they have.

Actually the change is more like this:
-Removing poison’s healing reduction to healing, so there is no actual way to counter it.
-Make healing able to be spammed every 3-4 seconds
-Give one class in particular a 100% healing reduction for 8 seconds, on an automatic proc. That’s not letting people play against it, the person applying the healing reduction doesn’t have to do anything at all except attack.

Being able to damage through stealth isn’t a counter, that’s like saying damage is a counter to healing :/. OP has a valid point but lots of people are just strawmanning it.

does thief have high access to protection or multiple heals?

here is the thing: if they nerf stealth even more they will just have to buff thieves otherwise… the way i see it, thieves would just turn into warriors wearing leather armor and using dagger instead of GS….

given same skill level, thieves already can’t kill most of popular classes/builds by themself; stacking thieves just increases chances of los exponentially…. sure let’s nerf the class, let’s add more counters…. because we certanly need another class that is not used in meta and top pvp…. i mean cmon, ppl still dont run celestial trio exclusively , gotta fix it!

I’m all for buffs to thieves as long as they don’t buff lame things.

S/D acro trickery was not skillfull at all, perma dodging is lame and current feline grace/vigor nerf is 100% well done.

They skyrocket buffed stealth tho, not caring at all about how passive thief game play will became ( camp stealth all day while u: gain more ini, gain health, receive less damage, clear condies SO GUD SO SKILLFULL) and without caring about team PvP where team stealth camping and stealth openers are a big problem, something about top tier players have been complaining since start, with ZERO counterplay available.

It’s guessing game and nothing more.

thieves needs buffs in certains areas, but it needs the nerfhammer on other aspects whose arr lame, not fun to play against and with zero counterplay availablr aside some brutal hard counters with 0 sense (like lock on or sic em).

I’m missing something… with nerfed stealth and nerfed dodges, how is a thief supposed to stay alive???

Obviously the OP does not play thief.

Look, a thief who camps in stealth isn’t doing anything for their team. The counterplay is super easy and doesn’t require Lock on or Sic em. All it requires is playing smart and staying focused.

There are pretty much two things you should expect when a thief stealths: A. they stealth and run away (you’ll know they ran off when you’re out of combat again). B. They’re going in for a backstab, so don’t just stand there cursing to yourself and move. Spam your skills around you. Make it hard and dangerous for them to land the backstab.

Shadow refuge. You can see the aoe right? You see the little house symbol on top? That’s where the thief is. If he moves out of it he’s revealed. Go spam your skills on top of it and they’ll either go down or move out of it. Or if you play a hambow war, knock them out of it.

Even though you can’t see them, you can still hit them. Stealth is not invulnerability which is by far stronger, making it impossible to interrupt a stomp for instance. Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability and what does the necromancer have again? That’s right, Death shroud, a second health bar. So what does the thief have? STEALTH.

If they nerfed stealth, they would have to buff thieves otherwise, and trust me… If you struggle with thieves now, you would cry even more after any buffs that would compensate stealth nerfs. It’s how the class was meant to be played.

Roll a thief and try it out in pvp. You’ll notice it’s not as OP as you thought it was. Furthermore, you should read the whole thread on the profession changes before you deem thief OP. Other classes are going to get buffed as well.

Thief needs stealth for survival. They’re a melee class with low armor and health. They have to have something extra to keep them alive. Other melee professions/specs get extra armor or health or healing. Thief gets stealth.

Maris.3164:

Obviously the OP does not play thief.

Look, a thief who camps in stealth isn’t doing anything for their team. The counterplay is super easy and doesn’t require Lock on or Sic em. All it requires is playing smart and staying focused.

There are pretty much two things you should expect when a thief stealths: A. they stealth and run away (you’ll know they ran off when you’re out of combat again). B. They’re going in for a backstab, so don’t just stand there cursing to yourself and move. Spam your skills around you. Make it hard and dangerous for them to land the backstab.

Shadow refuge. You can see the aoe right? You see the little house symbol on top? That’s where the thief is. If he moves out of it he’s revealed. Go spam your skills on top of it and they’ll either go down or move out of it. Or if you play a hambow war, knock them out of it.

Even though you can’t see them, you can still hit them. Stealth is not invulnerability which is by far stronger, making it impossible to interrupt a stomp for instance. Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability and what does the necromancer have again? That’s right, Death shroud, a second health bar. So what does the thief have? STEALTH.

If they nerfed stealth, they would have to buff thieves otherwise, and trust me… If you struggle with thieves now, you would cry even more after any buffs that would compensate stealth nerfs. It’s how the class was meant to be played.

Roll a thief and try it out in pvp. You’ll notice it’s not as OP as you thought it was. Furthermore, you should read the whole thread on the profession changes before you deem thief OP. Other classes are going to get buffed as well.

“Spam your skills around you”
-Thief looks at you and think you’re an idiot for hitting air.

“Shadow Refuge. That’s where the thief is”
Double dodge will avoid all if not most damage. You can also use SB or Sword evade if you aim it correctly.

" Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability"
Vamp runes say hi! Nothing carries a player more than stealth and invul.

Obviously you do not play a thief.

Blegh thief will always be broken in some way because they play by a different set of rules with initiative. You would also need to buff the thief’s other defenses which I know everyone would complain about as well. And then if not careful, you could screw over mesmer, who uses stealth as well. It’s a very tricky tightrope act balancing a profession like thief.

Gabriell.4856:

“Spam your skills around you”
-Thief looks at you and think you’re an idiot for hitting air.

I do the same thing as a thief. It’s survival, not the red carpet. Appearance is nothing.

Gabriell.4856:

“Shadow Refuge. That’s where the thief is”
Double dodge will avoid all if not most damage. You can also use SB or Sword evade if you aim it correctly.

That’s playing playing on a pretty fine line. Shadow Refuge is used defensively a lot. Dodges may have been expended already, and even if available, you’d better hope you have enough room to maneuver inside… especially with weapon evade skills. How long can you actually dodge/evade against AoE inside SR anyway? The full 4 seconds?

Gabriell.4856:

" Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability"
Vamp runes say hi! Nothing carries a player more than stealth and invul.

Now, that’s just silly. Besides, Vamp runes proc at low health and take away ALL abilities… not something a thief desires at all. The only place stealth and a COMPLETELY defensive invulnerability carries players is out of a hot zone if they’re lucky, but usually, it carries them to a different place to die. If it carried them anywhere else, thieves would reign supreme on the battlefield.

Honestly, that’s like saying defense carries players. Well, yeah, it keeps them from dying. That’s the same for everybody. Thieves just have a different type of defense than most. It has its advantages and disadvantages. Without it, there would be a LOT more dead thieves… already more than the MULTITUDE there already are.

Kageseigi.2150:

Gabriell.4856:

“Spam your skills around you”
-Thief looks at you and think you’re an idiot for hitting air.

I do the same thing as a thief. It’s survival, not the red carpet. Appearance is nothing.

Gabriell.4856:

“Shadow Refuge. That’s where the thief is”
Double dodge will avoid all if not most damage. You can also use SB or Sword evade if you aim it correctly.

That’s playing playing on a pretty fine line. Shadow Refuge is used defensively a lot. Dodges may have been expended already, and even if available, you’d better hope you have enough room to maneuver inside… especially with weapon evade skills. How long can you actually dodge/evade against AoE inside SR anyway? The full 4 seconds?

Gabriell.4856:

" Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability"
Vamp runes say hi! Nothing carries a player more than stealth and invul.

Now, that’s just silly. Besides, Vamp runes proc at low health and take away ALL abilities… not something a thief desires at all. The only place stealth and a COMPLETELY defensive invulnerability carries players is out of a hot zone if they’re lucky, but usually, it carries them to a different place to die. If it carried them anywhere else, thieves would reign supreme on the battlefield.

Honestly, that’s like saying defense carries players. Well, yeah, it keeps them from dying. That’s the same for everybody. Thieves just have a different type of defense than most. It has its advantages and disadvantages. Without it, there would be a LOT more dead thieves… already more than the MULTITUDE there already are.

How do you know thief doesn’t desires vamp runes? Because you say so? I see it in top level tourney so someone desires it…Vamp runes by itself is counterable because you can see where the thief is going. But with d/p panic strike build, it complements it well. Last refuge and vamp rune proc gives thief invul, stealth, and condi cleanse at the same time. It is highly desireable because the vamp rune proc will interrupt any skill so when last refuge proc it prevent unintended reveal. This is 100% passive play and requires no skill that allows the thief to reset. How do you counter invul, stealth, and cleanse? You just can’t.

Gabriell.4856:

How do you know thief doesn’t desires vamp runes? Because you say so?

No, I’m saying that no thief wants to get so low on health that the invulnerability procs. Neither do they want to lose ALL abilities except running away. It’s like an airbag in your car. It CAN save your bacon, but nobody wants it to be necessary. Thieves take it because they know that they’re so squishy, they’ll probably need it… even with stealth.

Gabriell.4856:

It is highly desireable because the vamp rune proc will interrupt any skill so when last refuge proc it prevent unintended reveal.

I don’t use Vamp runes, but according to recent patch notes, Last Refuge isn’t supposed to proc with them. Whether or not it does, I do not know.

Gabriell.4856:

How do you counter invul, stealth, and cleanse? You just can’t.

Remember, a thief can’t do anything while in Mist Form either… just try to run far enough away to escape oncoming doom. It procs without a moment’s notice. It is involuntary. Purely defensive and passive. It’s not as though a thief can see a powerful attack coming and go invulnerable. Other professions can.

Stealth is what allows thieves to survive. If used wisely, it can do so very well. But stealth is still only concealment, it isn’t cover… at least, not until tomorrow. Then it’s partial cover for Shadow Arts users.

Kageseigi.2150:

Gabriell.4856:

How do you know thief doesn’t desires vamp runes? Because you say so?

No, I’m saying that no thief wants to get so low on health that the invulnerability procs. Neither do they want to lose ALL abilities except running away. It’s like an airbag in your car. It CAN save your bacon, but nobody wants it to be necessary. Thieves take it because they know that they’re so squishy, they’ll probably need it… even with stealth.

Gabriell.4856:

It is highly desireable because the vamp rune proc will interrupt any skill so when last refuge proc it prevent unintended reveal.

I don’t use Vamp runes, but according to recent patch notes, Last Refuge isn’t supposed to proc with them. Whether or not it does, I do not know.

Gabriell.4856:

How do you counter invul, stealth, and cleanse? You just can’t.

Remember, a thief can’t do anything while in Mist Form either… just try to run far enough away to escape oncoming doom. It procs without a moment’s notice. It is involuntary. Purely defensive and passive. It’s not as though a thief can see a powerful attack coming and go invulnerable. Other professions can.

Stealth is what allows thieves to survive. If used wisely, it can do so very well. But stealth is still only concealment, it isn’t cover… at least, not until tomorrow. Then it’s partial cover for Shadow Arts users.

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

Mrbig.8019:

Kageseigi.2150:

Gabriell.4856:

How do you know thief doesn’t desires vamp runes? Because you say so?

No, I’m saying that no thief wants to get so low on health that the invulnerability procs. Neither do they want to lose ALL abilities except running away. It’s like an airbag in your car. It CAN save your bacon, but nobody wants it to be necessary. Thieves take it because they know that they’re so squishy, they’ll probably need it… even with stealth.

Gabriell.4856:

It is highly desireable because the vamp rune proc will interrupt any skill so when last refuge proc it prevent unintended reveal.

I don’t use Vamp runes, but according to recent patch notes, Last Refuge isn’t supposed to proc with them. Whether or not it does, I do not know.

Gabriell.4856:

How do you counter invul, stealth, and cleanse? You just can’t.

Remember, a thief can’t do anything while in Mist Form either… just try to run far enough away to escape oncoming doom. It procs without a moment’s notice. It is involuntary. Purely defensive and passive. It’s not as though a thief can see a powerful attack coming and go invulnerable. Other professions can.

Stealth is what allows thieves to survive. If used wisely, it can do so very well. But stealth is still only concealment, it isn’t cover… at least, not until tomorrow. Then it’s partial cover for Shadow Arts users.

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

Can I have some of the what you smoke? Seems to be some crazy stuff.

in world of warcraft you used to have a chance to see stealthed players they should add something similar here.

the times a thief can go stealth and reset the fight is ridiculous , you need to have huge burst to kill them but when you go full burst you dont have defense so they will kill you in a second.

thief is indeed broken.

Thief dont use aegis and have less health, no blocks only stealth and hit. Its perfect. Just needs a ranged weapon spec

Let me tell you this, your complaints only cater to those at a very low level of play that don’t know how to count stealth or simply understand a thieves weaknesses. This is basically a debate on whether Anet should balance around a low lvl of play or a high lvl of play because at a high lvl of play thieves are really not much of a problem in terms of stealth. It’s just their class m8, instead of complaining and thinking it’s impossible to counter, actually play it for a bit and realize that it’s really not that OP. Then again, judging by this complain you clearly play at a low level that consists of players complaining about the stealth mechanic so maybe you just might do good for once there bud.

Mrbig.8019:

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

And the evidence to support this logic is where?

I want to see where these “good” thieves are hiding. I think you aren’t giving enough credit to those players. Of course, I may have misread your post… you may have meant that bad thieves apply pressure, while good thieves don’t die. Then again, my logic and yours are clearly not the same.

Stealth could use some visual cues for added risk.

Like strike visual effects appearing when hit.

You go behind an enemy, they don’t hit you, no visuals. You go from the front, they swing their sword, and they see the flash from the hit, and know you are there. You see a flamethrower engineer, you don’t get anywhere near the front of the guy.

Stealth should be more tactical, less spammable.

Gabriell.4856:

Maris.3164:

Obviously the OP does not play thief.

Look, a thief who camps in stealth isn’t doing anything for their team. The counterplay is super easy and doesn’t require Lock on or Sic em. All it requires is playing smart and staying focused.

There are pretty much two things you should expect when a thief stealths: A. they stealth and run away (you’ll know they ran off when you’re out of combat again). B. They’re going in for a backstab, so don’t just stand there cursing to yourself and move. Spam your skills around you. Make it hard and dangerous for them to land the backstab.

Shadow refuge. You can see the aoe right? You see the little house symbol on top? That’s where the thief is. If he moves out of it he’s revealed. Go spam your skills on top of it and they’ll either go down or move out of it. Or if you play a hambow war, knock them out of it.

Even though you can’t see them, you can still hit them. Stealth is not invulnerability which is by far stronger, making it impossible to interrupt a stomp for instance. Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability and what does the necromancer have again? That’s right, Death shroud, a second health bar. So what does the thief have? STEALTH.

If they nerfed stealth, they would have to buff thieves otherwise, and trust me… If you struggle with thieves now, you would cry even more after any buffs that would compensate stealth nerfs. It’s how the class was meant to be played.

Roll a thief and try it out in pvp. You’ll notice it’s not as OP as you thought it was. Furthermore, you should read the whole thread on the profession changes before you deem thief OP. Other classes are going to get buffed as well.

“Spam your skills around you”
-Thief looks at you and think you’re an idiot for hitting air.

“Shadow Refuge. That’s where the thief is”
Double dodge will avoid all if not most damage. You can also use SB or Sword evade if you aim it correctly.

" Thief and necro are the only ones without access to invulnerability"
Vamp runes say hi! Nothing carries a player more than stealth and invul.

Obviously you do not play a thief.

Yes… I play a thief. I don’t use vamp runes though. Besides, we were talking about profession mechanics, not runes. Also I used to run D/P, not sword. Though now I might start using it. I use shadow refuge as a last resort (if not reviving), by the time I use it I’m lucky to have one dodge left.

I really don’t know what you’re aiming at here, I was giving the OP advice against thief so he would stop complaining about stealth.

oh-oh-oh I got an idea!
Besides 500 teleports and blindfield on demand thiefs need stealth to SURVIVE, is what everyone is saying?
And people are mostly frustrated by instagib from stealth with no counterplay amiright? How about just eeeeevery attack that could damage an enemy reveals, even if it does not hit(so no ports and so on, because we aaaall know thief needs that survivability o so much)
And thus we got the solution of less instagib, with thief still having his “survivabiliteeeh”.

And no, I´m not being serious.
I´m just starting to get kittened of that there is zero counterplay to stealthburst, no viable suggestions to fix it without killing thief off and diehard fanboys defending the current state of stealth.
Yet it´s the very same stealth fanboys who are crying about too much random aoe, when it´s the only thing currently working against stealth. What. The. Hell?

If you can not counter a thief, friend I have grave news… It means you lack the experience in pvp/WvW. Troll thieves aside ( with the latest patch it will be harder to play thief), countering a thief is easy. Countering a thief who focuses on stealth is easier. Reason people think thieves are easy to play and forgiving is that they either never played with thief and they are afraid, or they play “omg spam heart seeker, press pistol 4 spam spam death!” style bad thief. I was playing like that before I got experience, it is normal.

So if you think a class is too powerful, just try it in Spvp area. With the latest patch, i assure you, thief will be one of the most boring professions in the game. It will be burst or die, and with the latest changes to other professions, they will die.

ps: try retaliation buff if you can not form a good counterplay. It always hurts thieves who are not paying attention.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Stealth should be more tactical, less spammable.

Being tactical is a good thing. But you can’t fix stupid. If a thief walks into your sword/hammer while he is in stealth, he’s going to eat that damage. No need for visual cues.

But another problem with visual cues on hit is AoE. They can be very difficult to avoid even in stealth. They are also very spammable. Besides, if you were to AoE yourself, a thief could not get to your back without you knowing it.

And thieves can spam stealth because it is their main method of defense. Dodges have been nerfed. Thieves get concealment instead of cover. Only Shadow Arts thieves get partial cover while in stealth. Of course, stealth is also the only way to get access to the high-level attacks like Backstab.

I don’t think that stealth is op but I think every class should have 1 skill that gives them at least once the chance to counter stealth.
That wouldn’t be too op imo. (Also nice against mesmer burst or such)

thiefs have never being so overpowered since launch,
im searching for another game ,
see you again if i dont find any and thanks for uploading the patch before hot release
i wont buy hot or sit here and play another 6 months with this horrible balance
my last advice. give to classes a concept and some limitations and stop the power creep

jihm.2315:

thiefs have never being so overpowered since launch,
im searching for another game ,
see you again if i dont find any and thanks for uploading the patch before hot release
i wont buy hot or sit here and play another 6 months with this horrible balance
my last advice. give to classes a concept and some limitations and stop the power creep

Imagine this in a team setting with 2-3 people ( u just need thief and mes tbh) opening from stealth.

10-12k from thief, 12-15 k from mes.

GG true skill

Mrbig.8019:

Imagine this in a team setting with 2-3 people ( u just need thief and mes tbh) opening from stealth.

10-12k from thief, 12-15 k from mes.

GG true skill

The one who lands the 1st attack wins. <— measure of true skill (sarcasm)

This has already been happening in WvWvW before the patch. Now I can imagine is just worse.

I have said it countless of times:
revealed should be 4 seconds also in WvWvW and stealth should have a maximum duration of about 8 seconds. After the max duration of stealth you get revealed if you still camp in stealth

Deniara Devious.3948:

Mrbig.8019:

Imagine this in a team setting with 2-3 people ( u just need thief and mes tbh) opening from stealth.

10-12k from thief, 12-15 k from mes.

GG true skill

The one who lands the 1st attack wins. <— measure of true skill (sarcasm)

This has already been happening in WvWvW before the patch. Now I can imagine is just worse.

I have said it countless of times:
revealed should be 4 seconds also in WvWvW and stealth should have a maximum duration of about 8 seconds. After the max duration of stealth you get revealed if you still camp in stealth

Bolded ft

Deniara Devious.3948:

Mrbig.8019:

Imagine this in a team setting with 2-3 people ( u just need thief and mes tbh) opening from stealth.

10-12k from thief, 12-15 k from mes.

GG true skill

The one who lands the 1st attack wins. <— measure of true skill (sarcasm)

This has already been happening in WvWvW before the patch. Now I can imagine is just worse.

I have said it countless of times:
revealed should be 4 seconds also in WvWvW and stealth should have a maximum duration of about 8 seconds. After the max duration of stealth you get revealed if you still camp in stealth

revealed is 4 sec in wvw because of food buffs, wvw buffs, armor stats etc.
in pvp players don’t gain such advantages, stats are normalized via amulets that is why revealed here is 3 sec
i am pretty sure stealth camping is contra productive in conquest besides few initial team tactics; let’s have less team play and tactics because pvp isn’t dull enough? okkkkkkk

why even bring wvw in this discussion; it has absolutely nothing to do with pvp, not in slightest

Jesiah.2457:

I wonder if OP has read any of the incoming class changes or is just a typical lrn2player who comes to the forums crying about how they can’t beat someone who uses stealth?

My first suggestion, read Engi changes and then roll an engi with lock on. Completely catered to cryhards such as yourself, OP. The most rewarded passive gameplay towards stealth I’ve seen!

6 seconds of reveal and 10 stacks of vulnerability for simply hitting someone who’s in stealth on a stupidly low ICD! This I find amusing (or less sarcastically, disgusting) because it’s yet again another form of passive gameplay which is rewarded more than active gameplay.

#Anet’Esports’

That’s not enough, more than one class should have the lock-on trait, such as Mesmers (which continue to be countered by thieves).

Anet, make this happen.

Mrbig.8019:

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

See, this is what happens when players make assumptions.

Have you played thief since the patch? With the damage flying around, the heal from Shadow Rejuv is almost nothing – any player that isn’t going full bunker can fart and deal 900-1200 damage to a thief. There’s also the fact that SE was changed to damaging conditions only (not the biggest deal in the world, really), and no longer cleanses on stealth (this is where the big deal is, it basically kills SE). Taking SA over CS also severely limits your damage potential, and the tiny bit of sustain you get from SA does not compare to the damage lost.

I don’t agree with your proposed stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestions, though I do agree that SA is a terribly designed tree. Instead of some silly stealth cap, SA should be redesigned as follows:
Any trait that encourages stealth camping (SE, SR) instead grants part of its effect on gaining stealth, and another portion on becoming revealed. For example, SR could heal for X on gaining stealth and grant 1 init, and then heal Y health per second while revealed. SE could remove 1 condition when gaining stealth, and 1 condition when revealed. This removes the SA based incentive to remain in stealth, and forces the thief to remain active in combat to gain the benefits. You could even backload the bulk of the benefits on the “on revealed” if needed. This is a much better solution than a stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestion.

evilapprentice.6379:

Mrbig.8019:

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

See, this is what happens when players make assumptions.

Have you played thief since the patch? With the damage flying around, the heal from Shadow Rejuv is almost nothing – any player that isn’t going full bunker can fart and deal 900-1200 damage to a thief. There’s also the fact that SE was changed to damaging conditions only (not the biggest deal in the world, really), and no longer cleanses on stealth (this is where the big deal is, it basically kills SE). Taking SA over CS also severely limits your damage potential, and the tiny bit of sustain you get from SA does not compare to the damage lost.

I don’t agree with your proposed stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestions, though I do agree that SA is a terribly designed tree. Instead of some silly stealth cap, SA should be redesigned as follows:
Any trait that encourages stealth camping (SE, SR) instead grants part of its effect on gaining stealth, and another portion on becoming revealed. For example, SR could heal for X on gaining stealth and grant 1 init, and then heal Y health per second while revealed. SE could remove 1 condition when gaining stealth, and 1 condition when revealed. This removes the SA based incentive to remain in stealth, and forces the thief to remain active in combat to gain the benefits. You could even backload the bulk of the benefits on the “on revealed” if needed. This is a much better solution than a stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestion.

i agree after patch thief is more squishy than it should, doesn’t change the fact SA is terrible and stealth camping is even more terrible.

Stealth needs to be fixed and thief buffed accordingly if needed.

It’s lame both in 1vs1 and high level pvp, where teams just stealth stack and instagib the unlucky guy.

Mrbig.8019:

evilapprentice.6379:

Mrbig.8019:

Rofl thief is not squishy at all, it’s the most forgiving class in the meta right now and will be even more after patch.

What discerns a bad thief from a good thief is the capability to apply pressure or not, surely not the survivability.

A good thief can LITERALLY never die even when focused by 3 people.

See, this is what happens when players make assumptions.

Have you played thief since the patch? With the damage flying around, the heal from Shadow Rejuv is almost nothing – any player that isn’t going full bunker can fart and deal 900-1200 damage to a thief. There’s also the fact that SE was changed to damaging conditions only (not the biggest deal in the world, really), and no longer cleanses on stealth (this is where the big deal is, it basically kills SE). Taking SA over CS also severely limits your damage potential, and the tiny bit of sustain you get from SA does not compare to the damage lost.

I don’t agree with your proposed stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestions, though I do agree that SA is a terribly designed tree. Instead of some silly stealth cap, SA should be redesigned as follows:
Any trait that encourages stealth camping (SE, SR) instead grants part of its effect on gaining stealth, and another portion on becoming revealed. For example, SR could heal for X on gaining stealth and grant 1 init, and then heal Y health per second while revealed. SE could remove 1 condition when gaining stealth, and 1 condition when revealed. This removes the SA based incentive to remain in stealth, and forces the thief to remain active in combat to gain the benefits. You could even backload the bulk of the benefits on the “on revealed” if needed. This is a much better solution than a stealth cap and auto-revealed suggestion.

i agree after patch thief is more squishy than it should, doesn’t change the fact SA is terrible and stealth camping is even more terrible.

Stealth needs to be fixed and thief buffed accordingly if needed.

It’s lame both in 1vs1 and high level pvp, where teams just stealth stack and instagib the unlucky guy.

I have to agree about one thing. SA is cancer.

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

Mrbig.8019:

Tbh I’m kinda baffled by thief changes.

anet nerfed to the ground (rightfully) S/D, which has became a lot more skilfull than old S/D ( tho steal is still TOO STRONG)

Without addressing the biggest offender in thief kitten nal, BUT EVEN BUFFING IT:

STEALTH

Stealth has been a problem since start, teams started camping stealth with thieves and instagibbing people with stealth openers as soon as they discovered the trick, even more now thief has way more damage/sustain thx to sigils and runes (whose should be removed asap anyway, terrible design).

The biggest buff for thief right now will be being able to buils for things that on the old system would have meant stats loss (vit, healing power, condi damage).

Full zerk stat + utility from traitlines.

current meta build (panic strike) will became godmode.

not only camping stealth for 10+ secs is uber lame, but also leads to thw boring game play we see every kittening tournament or esl cups: move with thief, spam blast finishers on BP, play the guessing game till someone insta dies.

stealth has ZERO counterplay right now aside some silly hard counter with 0 practical sense (new lock in trait for engi) or use (sic em for rangers).

since it’s clear u can’t think of proper counterplay for stealth, it’s time to AT LEAST reduce stealth capping to something like 6 secs and add REVEAL as soon as u exit stealth, hit or not

that way stealth will be used as a reposition tool (like it was meant to be and like it was when game launched), not as a way to avoid any source of damage till important cds come back, or (way worse) as a way to instagib people with your team with 0 skill/counteplay involved.

thx for reading, kappabye

I 100% agree with you. Thank you for portraying my point of view.

Maris.3164:

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

There are already plenty of threada crying about mesmer.

this is more about stealth spikes and yes, mes is included.

Yes we need softer counters to stealth. We don’t need 1 move that reveals them for a few seconds so we can super burst them. We need CC to be allowed to knock them out of stealth repeatedly.

And yes the rest of thiefs defense mechanics would have to be tweeked to compensate.

Mrbig.8019:

Maris.3164:

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

There are already plenty of threada crying about mesmer.

this is more about stealth spikes and yes, mes is included.

Have you played thief after the patch?

Maris.3164:

Mrbig.8019:

Maris.3164:

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

There are already plenty of threada crying about mesmer.

this is more about stealth spikes and yes, mes is included.

Have you played thief after the patch?

And how does me playing thief relate to top teams stacking stealth and instagibbing people with mes -thief with 0 counterplay ?

Can any1 explane me how thiefs stealth got buffed with the last patch? Every single nub whining player is crying about some mistic stealth buffs for thieves, so maybe it’s just me who can’t find it?

So, SA line:
1) shadow embrace got nerfed
2) might from stealth has been removed
3) ini on stealth enter has been removed
4) last refuge (yes, it used to work great with vamp runes) has been moved to major traits and not an option anymore
5) cloaked in shadows has been moved to GM and is not an option anymore
6) second major line (traits 4,5,6) is absolutely useless

where is the buff?

Btw, it’s always the best marker for bad player – crying about thief stealth. You won’t find any good player who’d been whining about it (except trolling reasons ofc).

Mrbig.8019:

Maris.3164:

Mrbig.8019:

Maris.3164:

So you guys are okay with mesmers bursting from stealth but not with thief stealth and Shadow Arts line? Interesting.

There are already plenty of threada crying about mesmer.

this is more about stealth spikes and yes, mes is included.

Have you played thief after the patch?

And how does me playing thief relate to top teams stacking stealth and instagibbing people with mes -thief with 0 counterplay ?

Because they’re good at what they do and experienced on their profession. And yes, it’s very much related. You need to try it, any build will do. If you live through one team fight, my hat off to you. If not, you’ll see what I meant. Most thieves I’ve seen after the patch don’t even use stealth and shadow refuge anymore. It doesn’t help. I’d rather they look at exact numbers and do something about the over the top dps than nerf stealth because it isn’t a problem. Thief is too squishy to be a real threat to anyone, aside from another thief.