Guild Wars 2

Discuss.

Mando characters.

Matchmaking > experience/skill > class > build

From my experience most games are lost due to poor rotations. Good rotations require experience.

Gear? wat?

+1 for Cynz opinion

My experience for most games lost due to poor rotations and bad teamfight skill in other words they are more like solo heroes that don’t focus same target. Not looking for enemy players that have low hp ( change focus ) and only need a small burst for downstate. They fight instead with the full health elementalist. Happens a lot they don’t care if a teammate in trouble they keep attacking the elementalist, scrapper etc don’t even try to help.

Cynz.9437:

Matchmaking > experience/skill > class > build

From my experience most games are lost due to poor rotations. Good rotations require experience.

Gear? wat?

I think that build surpasses class. Most people just run the same build or slight variations.

Team>Class>Build>Gear>Skill

I agree completely, and here is my experience so far in this game as of late:

Team – Doesn’t matter the class you use, the build you have, the gear you use or the skill you got, because in the end of the day you will have matches where your team just explodes and dies the whole match!

Class – If you don’t use the right class or elite spec in this pvp system, you won’t go far!

Build – This one… as a S1 Legendary player i got kicked from a competitive team for not using the “meta” build in the scrapper elite spec. Yes, because i used a build made by me or a variant of the meta build, i was asked to leave. I had a brilliant performance in every match and yet it was not enough, EVERY MATCH!
Further more i get people insulting me “stupid engi is using this ****” or “every time i see that engi i lose”. I would delete this build if it sucked, but fighting in legendary against ESL and PRO PLAYERS and winning with it gave me comfort. Now i am but a Solo Qer currently in Diamond. All thanks to this crappy balance. Congratulations Anet you achived exacly the opposite effect in PVP for me!

Gear – Same thing with build, you don’t use the “meta” amulets and sigils then you suck. Despite there being 123523543254412343542435346 amulets, runes and sigils.
Don’t even try to take any other weapon besides hammer for engi in this meta.

Skill – What sold me to this game…and yet all i see is the game having 1 button to win skills like Slick Shoes with BEST SKILL CAP EVER being utterly effective instead of you using those grenades or mortar even and being actually and truly skilled using those skill shots…
OR Stupid Elixir X, one button press to win crap (why god?).
So much training…all these years…for nothing…doesn’t matter crap. Low skill cap builds being the TOP builds instead of the actually hard to play ones is a real fun pvp aspect…not.

Again…Guild Wars 2 has such potential…but balance makes no sense sometimes.

Depends on how much of a skill gap we are talking here…
If you mean: tearing pvp-newbies apart, sure. very possible. with pretty much everything.
But actually that should not count.
But if you are talking about people who rightfully play in the same division and maybe differ in skill and experience around 20%, it comes down to classes and builds.
So, for example I can defeat a newbie rev or even a decent rev. but never a good rev, even if I am the more experienced player and perform better overall.
And that is not due to counter mechanics, its just a matter of power. I actually read throughb the rev skills and traits in detail today, for the first time.
I cant believe it. Give me but one of those traitlines and there will be no witness left to tell you what I did with it.
Rev is not the only one ofc.

I think a good way to say it is this:

-How it should be: A duel between two equally geared players comes down to skill.
-How it is: A duel between two equally skilled players comes down to gear.

Now you might say: both of these optione are possible at the same time. Yes they are, but they are not right now. If you have played pvp, especially if you play the weaker classes, you should understand what im trying to say.

skill>build>team>class

I say build is often more valuable then class. (Gear is part of the build for me).
And skill has a huge impact, but since its not competative or fun to play at large skill diffrences, it has lower impact. If skill is only a bit apart, build will overshadow it (which is actually very good as long as there is useful build diversity).
Then matchmaking. How do you count that? Yes in the end it mostly decides who wins. But due to the factors what is matched. So you have to look at what comes after matchmaking and there team is far the most important factor.

In short answer team comp and skill. thats all that counts. Team comp most important skill close second.

Anyone saying skill doesn’t matter is delusional. Sry you think that the only reason you lost has something to do with your team or your opponents builds… sad truth you are getting outplayed, admit it and adapt.

team > skill > class > build

I had a game a few nights ago: 3 man guild team + 2 randoms VS me and a friend, another guild team of 2 + 1 random.

We lost 393-500 because our second group of 2 decided that they didn’t have to communicate with the rest of the team at all. We discussed tactics before the match started, their mesmer said he wouldn’t go close. Fine, thief goes close and rest mid … only that suddenly the 2 guys leave us 2 vs 4 in mid to go far, we get wiped and then the other team moves to faceroll them 5 vs 2. Didn’t get any better after that.

At around 200-400 they decided that we needed a lord kill, both went lord and left us 3 vs 5 on the map. They got the lord kill, we lost.

Skill-wise our team was not significantly worse than the enemy team (I would even say that we were a little better). Class distribution was pretty equal as well, if I remember correctly. The deciding factor in that game was team play.

My team deserved that loss. We didn’t play as a team and we paid for it. It just made the rest of us pretty angry as we lost due to those 2 guys refusing any communication whatsoever.

matchmaking > experience > class > build

First: matchmaking is completely kittened this league and it mostly puts you in a good team vs complete noobs or you’re in the team with complete noobs vs premade (my experience)

Second: when you’re in the team with complete noobs they don’t even understand the word ‘rotate’ so that’s another 10 minutes of your life lost

3: if you have 3 experienced warriors vs 2 mediocre necros and lets say a bunker tempest then warriors will lose

3 dps vs 2 dps + support healbot. ofc 3 dps lose. good support can make a skilled player to a killer machine that wipe almost the whole team alone.

Experienced warriors eat low/med skill necro for breakfast.

It’s easier than that:

Skill (of each player in the team, with their class and in reading the match and rotating efficiently) > class (not only yours, but also of the rest of the team) > build (good skilled players can work wonders with ‘lesser’ builds.

Skill can’t be the first one its only close second. It only could be if lets say 5 skilled of same class or bad comps like that have same chance to win against skilled synergetic meta comps.

Skill is by far the first to go. Without skill even good group composition the team wont be able to carry the unskilled players
Team I guess you mean communication thus for me it’s again skill to communicate . Or if it just composition I had win with 3 thieves versus 3 necro. .. again skill far better than team

Then win with your 3 thieves vs necro, rev, ele

see what i did there

Tim.6450:

Cynz.9437:

Matchmaking > experience/skill > class > build

From my experience most games are lost due to poor rotations. Good rotations require experience.

Gear? wat?

I think that build surpasses class. Most people just run the same build or slight variations.

Nope, it doesn’t if your class is meta, leveling up is a pain; so class >>> build

Rolisteel.1375:

Then win with your 3 thieves vs necro, rev, ele

see what i did there

i have lost to 3 thieves, with a well balanced team. We had the correct classes, but my team exploded against the thieves. Me included. Actually, two of the 3 thieves defeated me easily a few times 1on1 in that match.

If you lost to 3 thieves with well balanced team then something is very very wrong. What happens if you don’t have well balanced team in that match then?

OK, I revise my post:

Matchmaking>Who purchased HOT>Team> Class>Build >Gear>Skill

Unless some of you are carrying your team using a non-HOT build with Cleric’s or some other garbage gear, which case I’d love to hear about it.

Team>builds>skill>gear>class

team= most important everything from stomps to peeling is needed here if the team doesn’t pay attention you may as well find one player that fights well and stick like glue to him as you know he/she’ll have your back to provide winning situations and if they don’t , well good luck with the match.

Builds: the second most important part of a build comp is to have the correct amount CC/damage and support split over the players in the team , if one person in the team is the only Support/CC’er build it realy Restricts Choices of rotation and locations.
but if you had two support/CCer’s with different Gear stats than those choices open wide as both provide support/CC and depending on the gear stat could be damage +1 roaming focused or more focused on the health sustain side but ether way they provide defences/CC for the team in Multipul locations meaning more Chances to recover rotations or moving locations if things go wrong.

skill = third as important because a build can carry a poor player or a Great player can carry a poor build but obviously a poor player can not make a great build great.
so for this skill is a average importance (if you are new to pvp) then later on swaps places to where the skill is more importat than the build as that players skill improves he can get away without crutches to help with survival and put more faith into other players on the team in terms of help peeling, setting up a target to be downed.

Gear = as mentioned in the Build section , Gear is defined by your traits mostly and utility rather than the weapons your carry , the weapons may provide extra support but the majority of support utility and effects come from traits+utility and to improve those effects like healing/damage prevention and or improve power/burst damage.

the gear choices are limited to the type of role+build you have made so the gear is the least of your worries as you’d have a choice of 3-4 amulets after desgining your build to fit that role as mentioned in the team section.

my MM/BM/druid remoresless-two handed training lb/gs traited for ancient seed and moment of clairty , i could have the choices of Paladin,cleric,crusader and Maruader each one of them works but changes the way i enforce my build in the up comming fights .

Cleric= able to res,high support and have decent damage
Paladin = more resilant than clerics but only provides a bit more Burst / higher spike damage due to the extra crit chance , this means higher Pressure less support.
Cavalier Amulet= enforces , higher toughness/ very high power damage on Spike skills(spike skills as in Maul and pet f2) due to extra Critical damage ontop of Moment of clairty , this makes the build into a role that has the CC middle of the fight fighter while obsorbing the first wave of damage to lessen the blow to the more Squishy team mates, or just be a meat shield with basic support.

Maruader : this is the simple choice , straight up damage , limits you to damage you won’t res much or risk plays to provide extra support , this limits your role or play style using the Same build to damage+CC only and the role becomes Target Recivier rather than Target teller , they set up the target you burst it down , they play role becomes less fore front and more fluid force behind the team but with out the driver (aka Cavalier Amulet or Equal Meat shield build type which is the driver , this Maruader role becomes hard or near impossible to down a foes support player)

so the Gear choice becomes a role Choice depending on the build you decide to run which in turn effects your role in the team.

and lastly the class.

the class is taken for its pros and cons of what it provides through its weapons and support traits , although pretty much every class can forfill these roles/gear choices and build choices , the choice of class doesn’t mean much as each person can build differently and provide the gear roles i mentioned above , so the class is the least important in the chain.

and then the Cycle of life begins again Team>builds>skill>gear>class

I feel like you can easily combine Gear and Class into Build.

I would also say that while rotations are important, if you can’t win team fights because the game threw you into a team with 3 Thieves or Warriors (coming from a Warrior main) then the best rotations in the world probably won’t help you. Sure, you can swap or ask people to swap, but many people aren’t comfortable with multiple classes or simply just don’t want to play something different.

So I would say Matchmaking>Build>Skill.

You can be the most skilled player in the game but if you’re playing certain builds you can only do so well.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

OK, I revise my post:

Matchmaking>Who purchased HOT>Team> Class>Build >Gear>Skill

Unless some of you are carrying your team using a non-HOT build with Cleric’s or some other garbage gear, which case I’d love to hear about it.

Sorry, for anyone who did not buy HoT, you shot urself in the foot and jump off a cliff barely survived the fall and minutes later racing usain bolt. Elite spec really does amount to alot as its a straight upgrade to every build and will win you more games than someone without. Until expansion 2 comes and a new elite spec comes that is.

lol at anyone still trying to say skill doesnt matter…….

I consider profession and gear to simply be build so I won’t distinguish between both.

Team HAS to be first because no matter how skillful you are, no matter the build you use you only hold 1/5 of the outcome in your hands alone. You need your partners to go anywhere in this game since 4/5 of the outcome rely on them, not you.

Ideally, if the professions were balanced I would say skill is next but as it is build (profession/gear) weight a bit more. Something that has always bothered me a lot but having played a lot of non-meta vs meta I can tell how much more harder it is to reap reward with riskier builds and the ratio risk reward is not advantageous as it is. And my MMR more than likely bear the marks of that even though I now only play meta.

Skill is very important but it’s an unbalanced team game so it has to fall here.

Skill is above all.
Some games you just can’t carry but its still the most deciding factor.

And if you think otherwise then you are in a lower division where you should be.

No matter how good is your build, how coordinated your team is, if your team is war+war+mesmer+mesmer+guardian, you will never win against half decent engineer+rev+ranger+thief+ele (talking about mostly elites here).

This comes closest to the truth probably.

Team > Elite spec > Class > Build > Personal skill

• Bad team ->RIP game
• No elite spec -> RIP you

Also “A > B” does not mean that A undermines B utterly and completely, it does mean A puts more weight into the scales than B, C, D. It’s a matter of gradation.

A really really really skilled player can still win with a non-elite spec warrior using a non-meta build, but he will have to be matched against bad players.

Lutto.8745:

Skill is above all.
Some games you just can’t carry but its still the most deciding factor.

And if you think otherwise then you are in a lower division where you should be.

This is more an ideological statement than a logical one. Can we get your reasoning please. Take mine above and pick it apart since we obviously disagree. I’d be glad to see what you have to say.

Team>skill? Skill>team? Teamwork is a skill!

rennlc.7346:

Team>skill? Skill>team? Teamwork is a skill!

True but the point remain that if you are alone to have that skill you are kittened.

No matter how skillful you think you are you can’t cap more than 1 cap at a time while 2 complete garbage players can. Your skill also won’t impact on the cap and decaping speed when standing in the circle.

2 mechanically garbage players with garbage build will always win over 1 meta god in a game of conquest. This is the nature of the game.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lutto.8745:

Skill is above all.
Some games you just can’t carry but its still the most deciding factor.

And if you think otherwise then you are in a lower division where you should be.

This is more an ideological statement than a logical one. Can we get your reasoning please. Take mine above and pick it apart since we obviously disagree. I’d be glad to see what you have to say.

A good player on a meta class has the ability to carry teams and swing teamfights into snowballs or win 1v1 into a snowball or simply win 1v2 or keep them locked forever.

Build/comp/how good your teammates are surely will make things harder/easier but stating that “oh they have a superior comp to us now we lose gg” is how losers go about it instead of finding out what your own comp/players can do to win the game.

I’ve had several games with multi guards/warriors/2theifs against meta comps and still win, and a few losses but you can’t have 100% win because then something is really wrong and you are either god or HeatoN.

If comp/builds really did matter over skills then people like Zan and other good soloq’ers wouldn’t even be close to their win rate but they find ways to win games.

On lower levels it could be harder to do such things if the matchmaking puts 10 players of equal of similar skill and comp might matter more.

Let’s take some other game for example:

Dota have different heroes and not everyone of them is meta but do people just GG leave or lose all games when they have lesser meta than the other team? no you find your strengths and play accordingly. Skilled people make good plays get higher lvl/items and then you have a higher chance at winning the game.

This was just a rant before going away to get lunch and its unedited and probably typos but w/e

tldr: Good players rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” and swing the games in their favor and making good plays will overcome setup/comp

Lutto.8745:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lutto.8745:

Skill is above all.
Some games you just can’t carry but its still the most deciding factor.

And if you think otherwise then you are in a lower division where you should be.

This is more an ideological statement than a logical one. Can we get your reasoning please. Take mine above and pick it apart since we obviously disagree. I’d be glad to see what you have to say.

A good player on a meta class has the ability to carry teams and swing teamfights into snowballs or win 1v1 into a snowball or simply win 1v2 or keep them locked forever.

Build/comp/how good your teammates are surely will make things harder/easier but stating that “oh they have a superior comp to us now we lose gg” is how losers go about it instead of finding out what your own comp/players can do to win the game.

I’ve had several games with multi guards/warriors/2theifs against meta comps and still win, and a few losses but you can’t have 100% win because then something is really wrong and you are either god or HeatoN.

If comp/builds really did matter over skills then people like Zan and other good soloq’ers wouldn’t even be close to their win rate but they find ways to win games.

On lower levels it could be harder to do such things if the matchmaking puts 10 players of equal of similar skill and comp might matter more.

Let’s take some other game for example:

Dota have different heroes and not everyone of them is meta but do people just GG leave or lose all games when they have lesser meta than the other team? no you find your strengths and play accordingly. Skilled people make good plays get higher lvl/items and then you have a higher chance at winning the game.

This was just a rant before going away to get lunch and its unedited and probably typos but w/e

tldr: Good players rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” and swing the games in their favor and making good plays will overcome setup/comp

I can’t help but notice you cherry pick things so they all work in your advantage rather than adopt an all thing being equal approach. The Hollywood syndrome is what I call it.

Your argument is that a good player rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” but my question is, just how high can you rise with this philosophy before it becomes pure burlesque fantasy?

I mean, I agree that not all players are equal and that therefore some will defacto amount for more than 1/5 while others for less. But do we agree that what you control (your decisions and your build) will always be significantly less than what you do not in a game where you only play yourself along 4 others vs 5 more others who all take their decisions and choose their builds?

From the moment you agree with me on this I can’t begin to imagine how you still think your skill will impact for more than all the rest. It’s pure megalomania.

EDIT: I will also add a disclaimer that OFC there will be outliers making pretty much any outcomes possible but what we are looking at when I argue is the clear trend and not the exception of a life time. Yes, some women are taller than the average man by quite a lot but the trend that men are taller is still valid despite the irrefutable existence of these individual cases.

i love this argument bunch of people complaining about skill differences due to MMR being off and then go ahead and try the argument that skill doesnt matter that much… hysterical.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lutto.8745:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lutto.8745:

Skill is above all.
Some games you just can’t carry but its still the most deciding factor.

And if you think otherwise then you are in a lower division where you should be.

This is more an ideological statement than a logical one. Can we get your reasoning please. Take mine above and pick it apart since we obviously disagree. I’d be glad to see what you have to say.

A good player on a meta class has the ability to carry teams and swing teamfights into snowballs or win 1v1 into a snowball or simply win 1v2 or keep them locked forever.

Build/comp/how good your teammates are surely will make things harder/easier but stating that “oh they have a superior comp to us now we lose gg” is how losers go about it instead of finding out what your own comp/players can do to win the game.

I’ve had several games with multi guards/warriors/2theifs against meta comps and still win, and a few losses but you can’t have 100% win because then something is really wrong and you are either god or HeatoN.

If comp/builds really did matter over skills then people like Zan and other good soloq’ers wouldn’t even be close to their win rate but they find ways to win games.

On lower levels it could be harder to do such things if the matchmaking puts 10 players of equal of similar skill and comp might matter more.

Let’s take some other game for example:

Dota have different heroes and not everyone of them is meta but do people just GG leave or lose all games when they have lesser meta than the other team? no you find your strengths and play accordingly. Skilled people make good plays get higher lvl/items and then you have a higher chance at winning the game.

This was just a rant before going away to get lunch and its unedited and probably typos but w/e

tldr: Good players rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” and swing the games in their favor and making good plays will overcome setup/comp

I can’t help but notice you cherry pick things so they all work in your advantage rather than adopt an all thing being equal approach. The Hollywood syndrome is what I call it.

Your argument is that a good player rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” but my question is, just how high can you rise with this philosophy before it becomes pure burlesque fantasy?

I mean, I agree that not all players are equal and that therefore some will defacto amount for more than 1/5 while others for less. But do we agree that what you control (your decisions and your build) will always be significantly less than what you do not in a game where you only play yourself along 4 others vs 5 more others who all take their decisions and choose their builds?

From the moment you agree with me on this I can’t begin to imagine how you still think your skill will impact for more than all the rest. It’s pure megalomania.

EDIT: I will also add a disclaimer that OFC there will be outliers making pretty much any outcomes possible but what we are looking at when I argue is the clear trend and not the exception of a life time. Yes, some women are taller than the average man by quite a lot but the trend that men are taller is still valid despite the irrefutable existence of these individual cases.

I can only speak from my own experience and that’s what I did.

I can’t give you a % how high a player can rise but if you make the correct play and outplay your opponent your chance to win will go up alot.

I said there’s just some games you can’t win and its a team game that’s why its not always on you that you lost, and also on lower levels then yes probably when the game is even MMR with no smurfs you will have a hard time to do anything of this and the comp will be more significant.

I’m not the best player in guild wars and there’s alot of player that is better than me, but I’m above average and this is how my games look.. Its a constant battle between which players can make the best plays to win.

But there is so many players on this forum with “Dunning Kruger Syndrome” who blames others instead of improving their own gameplay to make correct rotations/dpsrotation/teamplay/who to target/mapmovement more and more.

But as said maybe on lower level things aren’t the same as higher up.. Unless in a tournament environment the setup only helps/make it worse but it doesn’t decide the game.

This is what I’ve learned from all my games and there’s only been a few “impossible” games and 95% I’ve been able to overcome comp with superior plays/decision making from either me or teammates.

NeXeD.3042:

i love this argument bunch of people complaining about skill differences due to MMR being off and then go ahead and try the argument that skill doesnt matter that much… hysterical.

You mean as opposed to your non-argument? It is indeed hysterical I guess…

Why is it that every time someone feel kitten about skill being factually less important than they would like they can only reply like you do? If you have something dismantling what others have said that you disagree with say it.

Lutto.8745:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lutto.8745:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Lutto.8745:

Skill is above all.
Some games you just can’t carry but its still the most deciding factor.

And if you think otherwise then you are in a lower division where you should be.

This is more an ideological statement than a logical one. Can we get your reasoning please. Take mine above and pick it apart since we obviously disagree. I’d be glad to see what you have to say.

A good player on a meta class has the ability to carry teams and swing teamfights into snowballs or win 1v1 into a snowball or simply win 1v2 or keep them locked forever.

Build/comp/how good your teammates are surely will make things harder/easier but stating that “oh they have a superior comp to us now we lose gg” is how losers go about it instead of finding out what your own comp/players can do to win the game.

I’ve had several games with multi guards/warriors/2theifs against meta comps and still win, and a few losses but you can’t have 100% win because then something is really wrong and you are either god or HeatoN.

If comp/builds really did matter over skills then people like Zan and other good soloq’ers wouldn’t even be close to their win rate but they find ways to win games.

On lower levels it could be harder to do such things if the matchmaking puts 10 players of equal of similar skill and comp might matter more.

Let’s take some other game for example:

Dota have different heroes and not everyone of them is meta but do people just GG leave or lose all games when they have lesser meta than the other team? no you find your strengths and play accordingly. Skilled people make good plays get higher lvl/items and then you have a higher chance at winning the game.

This was just a rant before going away to get lunch and its unedited and probably typos but w/e

tldr: Good players rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” and swing the games in their favor and making good plays will overcome setup/comp

I can’t help but notice you cherry pick things so they all work in your advantage rather than adopt an all thing being equal approach. The Hollywood syndrome is what I call it.

Your argument is that a good player rise above the “you are 1/5 20% of your team” but my question is, just how high can you rise with this philosophy before it becomes pure burlesque fantasy?

I mean, I agree that not all players are equal and that therefore some will defacto amount for more than 1/5 while others for less. But do we agree that what you control (your decisions and your build) will always be significantly less than what you do not in a game where you only play yourself along 4 others vs 5 more others who all take their decisions and choose their builds?

From the moment you agree with me on this I can’t begin to imagine how you still think your skill will impact for more than all the rest. It’s pure megalomania.

EDIT: I will also add a disclaimer that OFC there will be outliers making pretty much any outcomes possible but what we are looking at when I argue is the clear trend and not the exception of a life time. Yes, some women are taller than the average man by quite a lot but the trend that men are taller is still valid despite the irrefutable existence of these individual cases.

I can only speak from my own experience and that’s what I did.

I can’t give you a % how high a player can rise but if you make the correct play and outplay your opponent your chance to win will go up alot.

I said there’s just some games you can’t win and its a team game that’s why its not always on you that you lost, and also on lower levels then yes probably when the game is even MMR with no smurfs you will have a hard time to do anything of this and the comp will be more significant.

I’m not the best player in guild wars and there’s alot of player that is better than me, but I’m above average and this is how my games look.. Its a constant battle between which players can make the best plays to win.

But there is so many players on this forum with “Dunning Kruger Syndrome” who blames others instead of improving their own gameplay to make correct rotations/dpsrotation/teamplay/who to target/mapmovement more and more.

But as said maybe on lower level things aren’t the same as higher up.. Unless in a tournament environment the setup only helps/make it worse but it doesn’t decide the game.

This is what I’ve learned from all my games and there’s only been a few “impossible” games and 95% I’ve been able to overcome comp with superior plays/decision making from either me or teammates.

But let’s just keep our head cool and look at the facts for a moment rather than personal feelings on the matter:

FACTS:

You can try to influence others the way you want but only control your decisions and your build.

You are 1, they are 4 and all of them have the same power you do over their decisions and their build.

The outcome of a game will be decided by the difference you can extract in your favor out of the the sum of all players efforts to win vs the sum of players on the other team.

CONCLUSION:

Knowing this, how can you ever think your decisions, your team play, your build and your mechanical skill, ALONE, can be worth more in the balance than the same but for 4 more players? If you want to paddle your canoe despite 4 people paddling against you, you better be effing strong.

For your skill to amount more than the team in the outcome it would mean that you have more than 50% of the available power all to yourself… which is just not making any sense since, like we saw above, your teammates also wield that power, albeit with possibly more or less expertise than you.

Which lead me to think that you winning a lot might have a lot more to do with who you play with than just you. Which is what several of us have been saying…

You talk of the “Dunning Kruger Syndrome” but the irony is, you, as well as some others apparently, seem to be willing to attribute a lot more merit to yourself in any team game outcome than than it actually is possible to do all things being equal.

Don’t get me wrong. Skill is important and significant in the equation. But is it more important than the teammate you are dealt in the equation? No. It plain can’t.

that baby stealing dingo.7216:

OK, I revise my post:

Matchmaking>Who purchased HOT>Team> Class>Build >Gear>Skill

Unless some of you are carrying your team using a non-HOT build with Cleric’s or some other garbage gear, which case I’d love to hear about it.

I fail to see the logic in that… If Hot matters more than the team then build should also matter more than the team since build is tied to hot. Also, with hot, class should matter less than the build since hot builds are undeniably stronger. Also hot can’t matter more than class and build since hot, by itself, doesn’t add anything, it is an integral part of the build.

Also, I think that it is pretty much pointless to include build and gear into this since everyone is running the same metabuilds anyway… Further more, how is matchmaking any different from the team? Matchmaking makes the team so I think it should be replaced with “enemy team” instead. And while we are at it I would say that the team also includes classes and builds as a whole “team composition”.

So umh… what do we have left? Team, enemy team and skill? In one match I would say that your personal skill matters the least since you are only one of 5. So first you should have a good team and then worry about the enemy team and their comp. Altho if you want to move in divisions you can do that either with a good team or personal skill (or luck).

So simply put:

For solo: Skill > Team > Enemy team
For party: Team > Enemy team > Skill

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

-snip-

Don’t get me wrong. Skill is important and significant in the equation. But is it more important than the teammate you are dealt in the equation? No. It plain can’t.

Good post btw, I sometimes have a bad habbit to not read what has been said below the post that I comment on. You pretty much made my point here.

You are only 1/5 of the team so, in a single match, personal skill is not more important than the team. But I would say that in a long run, across multiple matches, personal skill adds up and allows you to climb the ladder. So in solo-q personal skill becomes more important. But you are right, in a single match it doesn’t matter unless you are actually way better than others (and of course everyone is, kappa) and have good leadership skills to direct other players. But when it comes to forming a team, the importance of your personal skill is exactly 1/5 of the team.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

NeXeD.3042:

i love this argument bunch of people complaining about skill differences due to MMR being off and then go ahead and try the argument that skill doesnt matter that much… hysterical.

You mean as opposed to your non-argument? It is indeed hysterical I guess…

Why is it that every time someone feel kitten about skill being factually less important than they would like they can only reply like you do? If you have something dismantling what others have said that you disagree with say it.

i believe my point is pretty clear to anyone with any sort of reading comprehension…..

its hysterical that the same people complaining about MMR making bad matches due to the difference in skill level also seem to be the same people claiming skill doesnt matter because its just a spam fest.

although now you will just claim that my argument is invalid as you seem to do to everyone who disagrees with you……

and your canoe point is invalid it would be more like 5 people in separate canoes all rowing to the same spot with a cumulative score that averages out the 5 kind of like cross country running scoring. 1 person(player) being faster(better) than the others brings up the average it doesnt make the rest of the people worse….

The heart of the mists should return as a private instance with a series of tutorials and challenges for each profession that give some pvp reward progress the first time they are completed.

Those tutorials should have a core branch of missions, and bonus missions explaining particular concepts in more detail.

We learn watching, but learn more doing.

NeXeD.3042:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

NeXeD.3042:

i love this argument bunch of people complaining about skill differences due to MMR being off and then go ahead and try the argument that skill doesnt matter that much… hysterical.

You mean as opposed to your non-argument? It is indeed hysterical I guess…

Why is it that every time someone feel kitten about skill being factually less important than they would like they can only reply like you do? If you have something dismantling what others have said that you disagree with say it.

i believe my point is pretty clear to anyone with any sort of reading comprehension…..

its hysterical that the same people complaining about MMR making bad matches due to the difference in skill level also seem to be the same people claiming skill doesnt matter because its just a spam fest.

although now you will just claim that my argument is invalid as you seem to do to everyone who disagrees with you……

Except ppl who complain largely do so because of how high MMR soloquers get to be fed good teammates, while average/low MMR soloquers get bad/new players (average is how new player are evaluated) teammates.

Knowing that the teammates you are given are more important than your personal skill in the outcome, I think they might have a point and that it’s not really hilarious. If the available players within a pip range were randomly distributed and the safe guards were removed it would be different but it is not.

Communication is above all the biggest factor to winning.

That is an issue with Pvp..so many players don’t communicate in anyway. They sit there silent at start, they don’t agree quickly on who priority targets should be be. They don’t communicate about what splits should be run, they don’t communicate about best tactics when snow balling is happening, If it is not going well they don’t communicate a change of direction is needed…they just don’t communicate in anyway.

For what it is worth in 85%+ of my matches, I may as well been playing solo.

We rush mid and no one is there…I draw an arrow from their base around the back side and ping our beast/home…my team pushes far…next thing you know I am swarmed by 3 of enemy on mid from behind, our beast gets stolen and home is being attack..and there is 3 of my team standing on far…They saw the visual communication, ignored it and as a team we are now 100 points behind right from the start of the match.

Any player who is worth their salt, but only plays casually will know what I am talking about. People they probably should be playing with have already risen to divisions above them and they left with average players who have a soloists mentality, who keep losing because they don’t communicate, so therefore their rotations are all wrong and they get run in circles.

I am no pro, just good..but good players rightly should see things like this happening, communicate it and go for the obvious counter instead of walking right in to the enemies grand plan.

if your in a higher mmr its not just your team that has a good MMR….. the opponents will have a similiar MMR, the issue was some people have inflated MMRs due to some people smurfing and purposefully tanking to lower their MMRs to get win streaks…..

NeXeD.3042:

if your in a higher mmr its not just your team that has a good MMR….. the opponents will have a similiar MMR, the issue was some people have inflated MMRs due to some people smurfing and purposefully tanking to lower their MMRs to get win streaks…..

Actually, that is not true. Your team is made with similar MMR (for better or worse) while your opponents are picked within a pip range regardless of MMR.

When you have a system where ppl can grind relatively easily up to what would be above average rank in a ladder (ruby) you create a massive clusterkitten where the actual skill range available to make teams within a given opponent pip range can be quite large.

The problem is, if you have a low MMR but with the legit skill to belong in ruby you will be prone to be paired with a significant amount of grinders that would not belong there if there were no safe guards to secure their ascension. This logically leads you to loose vs teams that are not prone to receive these ppl which confirm that you belong were you are (lol) and deserve what you were given etc (re-lol).

I hope, if the idea of a ladder is really wanted as opposed to a reward track (pick one ANET not both), that next season teams will be randomly made among available players within a pip range and that a win make you advance while a loss make you take a step back without limits. This way:

-All players would operate under the same conditions in soloq, which would be fairer and more prestigious.
-Grind would be MUCH harder to advance with.
-ELO/MMR hell, or what resemble it, would be nonexistent or at least FAR less plausible
- The queue would more than likely faster since MMR would be irrelevant to check since rank = where you should be.

im 98% sure the way you are describing would cause more uneven matches than the current one. it would also infuriate the more skilled players. im pretty sure anet would rather have the dunning kruger syndrome people complaining than kitten off alot of players.

one thing to remember is the people complaining on forums are the vocal minority.

NeXeD.3042:

im 98% sure the way you are describing would cause more uneven matches than the current one. it would also infuriate the more skilled players. im pretty sure anet would rather have the dunning kruger syndrome people complaining than kitten off alot of players.

one thing to remember is the people complaining on forums are the vocal minority.

How?

really?

You want to completely randomize everything and you dont see how that would make much more uneven matches…..

maybe thats what you would like… id prefer to have the current system in place so the more skilled players can get to the higher divisions where they belong faster.

also would like to add i am not a highly skilled player so there really isnt a bias here.

NeXeD.3042:

really?

You want to completely randomize everything and you dont see how that would make much more uneven matches…..

maybe thats what you would like… id prefer to have the current system in place so the more skilled players can get to the higher divisions where they belong faster.

also would like to add i am not a highly skilled player so there really isnt a bias here.

I do not see the problem nor understand why you react this way.

The stronger players would ascend faster than their weaker counter part because all things being equal they are capable of carrying bigger loads on their shoulders than others. Also, the higher they would go the more closely matched they would be since the weakest players would loose more than they would win. This is different than S1 where Helseth was fighting ppl of his level in amber to rise.

Nobody in ruby would get players still learning the basics and nobody would get his rank, no matter which one, by benefiting from unfair advantages over others. If you are really skillful and showing off your E-kitten what matters you should be glad of this not reacting like someone who got his VIP pass revoked. I was under the impression having good matches while getting a meaningful achievement was what was more important for the competitive ppl. Not the speed at which you get to where you belong.

Beside, can it truly get worse than it is ATM? Even ppl in diamond are complaining about blowouts. Diamond!! You are supposed to have left quite a lot of ppl behind when you have reached diamond.