Guild Wars 2

Excalibur.9748:

Ashanor.5319:

It’s really not even worth responding here. I have better things to do than argue with misinformed and/or bad players about class balance. You can argue with them all day Burr and they will just continue to spout off the same trash over and over again. They don’t listen to common sense or reason. The perfect example is that thief that used to spam the warrior forums, think his name was “Xcalibur” or something. The guy readily admitted in his posts previous to the warrior forums that he was a new player and wasn’t very good at thief, but he was dead set on believing warrior was overpowered even though his build was one of the best at killing warriors.

1) Warrior IS overpowered. I recognized that fact 3 months ago. That’s more than I can say for the rest who didn’t latch on until meta finally shifted 1-2 months later.
2) I said I wasn’t top tier with S/D, never said I wasn’t good.
3) looks like you have no idea what you’re talking about bro since everything, literally everything I’ve said have been regurgitated at least 10 times over in the following months. With stun already (slightly) shaved.

Stun being “shaved” was a bug fix everyone knew was coming. That was not a change based on a class being overpowered, but having a bugged sigil. It also effected many classes, not just warrior. You “knew” nothing, you just happened to be one of the first bads on the QQ train.

Excalibur.9748:

It’s true.

Not only do they make excellent commanders, they are also one of the most common roamers I see these days. In fact, I see warriors just as often or even more often than thieves now. I’m on TC facing SoR and BG and apparently I guess SoR and BG have a ton of warrior roamers.

Warriors are really annoying for me to deal with as I’m using S/D and I guess I have some trouble dealing with them since I’m not really used to facing warrior but I think my main problem is trying to hit them while they have endure pain up. So apparently, that is a stance.

So does a stance count as a boon or what? Can you strip it with larcenous strike? Is there a visual indicator for a stance? Sorry haven’t played a warrior, and I really lack experience dealing with warriors solo…

Does anyone have tips for dealing with warriors in general or specific tips for when using S/D + shortbow?

Note: most of them also run 2 stuns which can be used in quick succession whereas I only have 1 stunbreaker and they typically use melandru runes + lemongrass + dogged march.

Your post basically went something like this;

I suck at fighting warriors and know nothing about them, please help. Then two days later you decided it was time to spam warrior forums with nerf posts. You have been discredited countless times. I love how someone posts about you and you magically appear in a thread about warriors though. I bet you read every warrior topic and abuse every chance you get to try to perpetuate this overpowered warrior myth. Actually, I don’t need to guess at it, your post history doesn’t lie.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Excalibur-9748/showposts

Stun being “shaved” was a bug fix everyone knew was coming. That was not a change based on a class being overpowered, but having a bugged sigil. It also effected many classes, not just warrior.

Use your brain to think. It’s quite obviously warrior stun getting out of hand that caused the bug to get addressed.

Your post basically went something like this;
I suck at fighting warriors and know nothing about them, please help. Then two days later you decided it was time to spam warrior forums with nerf posts. You have been discredited countless times.

Well based on the knowledge I gained from the first topic (the one where I get advice on how to deal with warriors) I knew that warrior is actually OP since I was using one of the so-called “counters” and still had immense difficulty.

At the end of the day, warrior is still OP and my initial stance has not changed.

I love how someone posts about you and you magically appear in a thread about warriors though. I bet you read every warrior topic and abuse every chance you get to try to perpetuate this overpowered warrior myth. Actually, I don’t need to guess at it, your post history doesn’t lie.

Get real. It’s lunch time and I just happened to be looking at sPvP where all the drama is occuring! The only ones who think it’s a “myth” are warrior,s everyone else knows they’re OP.

Excalibur.9748:

Stun being “shaved” was a bug fix everyone knew was coming. That was not a change based on a class being overpowered, but having a bugged sigil. It also effected many classes, not just warrior.

Use your brain to think. It’s quite obviously warrior stun getting out of hand that caused the bug to get addressed.

Your post basically went something like this;
I suck at fighting warriors and know nothing about them, please help. Then two days later you decided it was time to spam warrior forums with nerf posts. You have been discredited countless times.

Well based on the knowledge I gained from the first topic (the one where I get advice on how to deal with warriors) I knew that warrior is actually OP since I was using one of the so-called “counters” and still had immense difficulty.

At the end of the day, warrior is still OP and my initial stance has not changed.

Ever consider that your inability to properly play S/D was the problem, and not warriors?

Embarrassing. lol

Ashanor.5319:

Excalibur.9748:

Stun being “shaved” was a bug fix everyone knew was coming. That was not a change based on a class being overpowered, but having a bugged sigil. It also effected many classes, not just warrior.

Use your brain to think. It’s quite obviously warrior stun getting out of hand that caused the bug to get addressed.

Your post basically went something like this;
I suck at fighting warriors and know nothing about them, please help. Then two days later you decided it was time to spam warrior forums with nerf posts. You have been discredited countless times.

Well based on the knowledge I gained from the first topic (the one where I get advice on how to deal with warriors) I knew that warrior is actually OP since I was using one of the so-called “counters” and still had immense difficulty.

At the end of the day, warrior is still OP and my initial stance has not changed.

Ever consider that your inability to properly play S/D was the problem, and not warriors?

Embarrassing. lol

Nope it had nothing to do with my playing ability. It’s also not a counter at all, warrior has all the tools necessary to deal with an S/D thief. I deal with it fine when I’m on my bunker war.

Ashanor.5319:

overpowered warrior myth.

Emphasis mine.

The fact that you could post that makes it hard to take you seriously.

The question isn’t “Is warrior overpowered” – that question has been answered with a resounding yes (Source: Common sense, the current pvp scene, not being blind)

The question is “How overpowered is Warrior” and as a corollary “How can we make adjustments that leave the class in an effective place”. I agree with Burr that there’s alot of hyperbole and misinformation regarding exactly how good warriors are at certain things (Welcome to over a year of being a thief, btw), but there are issues. 20 points in defense (usually 30, but 20 is the min) and HS needs closer examination. Once that issue is addressed, there may be further things to look into (burst skills not costing adrenaline and only going a reduced CD when missed, as opposed to every other class mechanic in the game being the primary one), but it’ll be easier to judge just how powerful that is when warriors of all specs stop gaining insane sustain that fuels multiple effective spec choices from 20 points in 1 trait line.

Ashanor.5319:

…

Warrior is in a weird spot right now because it’s not horribly OP at top tiers (teams only take 1-2 warriors usually) but it’s so easy to play that in non-top-tier matches/hotjoin/solo queue it would certainly look very OP. I’m all for a wide range of professions, ranging from simple to learn, hard to master, all the way to insanely high apm/unforgiving specs. But if the gap in complexity becomes too massive…things start to look very out of balance to 98% of the playerbase.

Warrior players should be in favor of risk/reward tweaks. They won’t hurt warriors at the top and will make them less hated at the bottom. Remember after launch when people tried PvP and quit because of thieves? Thieves weren’t even that powerful, just lolworthy builds making new players uninstall. That’s what warriors are right now.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ashanor.5319:

…

Warrior is in a weird spot right now because it’s not horribly OP at top tiers (teams only take 1-2 warriors usually)

It seems a bit off that your justification for a format that at best leaves 3 classes completely unrepresented is that teams “usually” only take “1-2 warriors”. This isn’t proof that they’re OP by any means, but it does weaken your overall argument.

The sentence “Warriors aren’t horribly OP, they only take 1-2 slots in a 5 slot team with 8 possible class choices to fill those slots” makes it sound like you’re saying they’re obviously not OP because people don’t bring 4 of them.

evilapprentice.6379:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ashanor.5319:

…

Warrior is in a weird spot right now because it’s not horribly OP at top tiers (teams only take 1-2 warriors usually)

It seems a bit off that your justification for a format that at best leaves 3 classes completely unrepresented is that teams “usually” only take “1-2 warriors”. This isn’t proof that they’re OP by any means, but it does weaken your overall argument.

The sentence “Warriors aren’t horribly OP, they only take 1-2 slots in a 5 slot team with 8 possible class choices to fill those slots” makes it sound like you’re saying they’re obviously not OP because people don’t bring 4 of them.

Apologies, emphasis on horribly. I just mean there are 4-6 warriors in most solo queue matches and only 2-3 in top team matches. Using that line of reasoning, I tried to say that warriors are somewhat too strong in the top tier but far, far too strong at a casual level, due to being so easy to play. I did not mean to imply that warriors are balanced.

I don’t have time to read through the rest of this thread, but I have read the first page. I’m going to sum this up with a statement I got from a thief when discussing the current state of stealth.

“It’s in the game, so it’s not broken. That’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Nobody ever seems to give a legitimate argument and when met with a counter argument they get raged at or told Warrior are OP without any actual math or experience to back it up. I’ve had this happen to me personally, and while it’s laughable, it shows how pitiful some people can truly be when it comes to the game.

If you think Warriors are overpowered give a good example of how they’re broken. If you can’t do that, kindly save your crying for the next fotm class/build.

Zanryu.3417:

I don’t have time to read through the rest of this thread, but I have read the first page. I’m going to sum this up with a statement I got from a thief when discussing the current state of stealth.

“It’s in the game, so it’s not broken. That’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Nobody ever seems to give a legitimate argument and when met with a counter argument they get raged at or told Warrior are OP without any actual math or experience to back it up. I’ve had this happen to me personally, and while it’s laughable, it shows how pitiful some people can truly be when it comes to the game.

If you think Warriors are overpowered give a good example of how they’re broken. If you can’t do that, kindly save your crying for the next fotm class/build.

How would you know if anyone made any good arguments when you didn’t read more than 50% of the responses?

Also, I’ve NEVER seen anyone claim that stealth is fine “because it’s in the game” (you might notice my name on ALOT of posts there as well, so it’s not like I’m never over in that section). The argument usually goes “There’s lots of counters to stealth – here I will list them for you”. Further advice is to roll a thief and find the weaknesses in the spec that’s giving you so much trouble.

You’ve contributed nothing to the discussion, specifically because you felt the need to respond without actually reading through it.

People have pointed out the hard numbers on HS and AH. They’ve pointed out how hard it is to get poison to stick on a class that drops 2-3 conditions every 7-10 seconds just by using their burst skills they’d be using anyway. They’ve pointed out the insane sustain 20 in defense and HS gives a warrior – but how would you know? You didn’t bother to read through the thread.

evilapprentice.6379:

Zanryu.3417:

I don’t have time to read through the rest of this thread, but I have read the first page. I’m going to sum this up with a statement I got from a thief when discussing the current state of stealth.

“It’s in the game, so it’s not broken. That’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Nobody ever seems to give a legitimate argument and when met with a counter argument they get raged at or told Warrior are OP without any actual math or experience to back it up. I’ve had this happen to me personally, and while it’s laughable, it shows how pitiful some people can truly be when it comes to the game.

If you think Warriors are overpowered give a good example of how they’re broken. If you can’t do that, kindly save your crying for the next fotm class/build.

How would you know if anyone made any good arguments when you didn’t read more than 50% of the responses?

Also, I’ve NEVER seen anyone claim that stealth is fine “because it’s in the game” (you might notice my name on ALOT of posts there as well, so it’s not like I’m never over in that section). The argument usually goes “There’s lots of counters to stealth – here I will list them for you”. Further advice is to roll a thief and find the weaknesses in the spec that’s giving you so much trouble.

You’ve contributed nothing to the discussion, specifically because you felt the need to respond without actually reading through it.

People have pointed out the hard numbers on HS and AH. They’ve pointed out how hard it is to get poison to stick on a class that drops 2-3 conditions every 7-10 seconds just by using their burst skills they’d be using anyway. They’ve pointed out the insane sustain 20 in defense and HS gives a warrior – but how would you know? You didn’t bother to read through the thread.

It should have been implied that I would go through and read the rest when time allowed. I was queued up for a tournament while reading the first page so I knew it would be unlikely I could finish.

I’ve seen it. I’ve seen many horrible arguments for different classes, builds, and mechanics and people crying out for a Warrior nerf are no different. The burst skills can be dodged and are affected by blind. The Warrior can’t use them while stunned, so once stunbreaks and Stability are gone your team can proceed to stun the Warrior or immobilize him. I’ll grant you that skills can be used during immobilize, but anything but longrange skills become very limited making immobilize a very effective method of keeping a Warrior in check.

Honestly the sustain obtained from putting points into Defense is nice, but I have to assume you’re referring to the Cleansing Ire trait and the adrenaline based heal, as you specifically mentioned 20 points. If that’s not the case, then please tell me what is. Every class has access to toughness traits, though the secondary boost to stats varies. In any case, while Warrior get a fair amount of sustain from that tree, I wouldn’t say it’s overpowered. People have issues with Healing Signet and Adrenal Health, along with the condition removal from Cleansing Ire. So far that seems to be the main complaint, but those skills are far from unbeatable.

Blind, Stun, Immobilize, Poison, and burst damage are all ways of getting through a Warriors defenses. Assuming the Warrior is using Healing Signet for the passive he effectively has no burst heal, unless he wants to waste the super duper amazing passive heal everyone hates. Poison alone will mess with that, if the warrior uses a Burst skill you can go in for another Condition which will eat up his heals. If you’re a burst class, unleash hell on them. If they pop Endure Pain wait 4-5 seconds while dodging or applying CC effects and get back to applying damage. Healing Signet effectively takes away the ability to burst heal, making burst damage and condition damage both highly effective so long as the Warrior can’t get out of it.

A Warrior 4-5 seconds of no damage, 8-10 seconds of no conditions, and 8-10 seconds of Stability. This is without taking the trait that activates Balanced Stance or Endure Pain under certain conditions. Stability only lasts so long and can be corrupted. Endure Pain only lasts up to 5 seconds and conditions can still be applied. Berserker Stance only lasts up to 10 seconds, does not reduce direct damage taken, and does not affect conditions already applied.

Warriors have access to good stun abilities and a fair ability to survive, but I wouldn’t call them overpowered. They can be countered. They aren’t these unkillable monstrosities that just do not die.

I will now read the rest of the thread. Some people man, some people.. Tisk tisk.

Zanryu.3417:

I’ve seen it. I’ve seen many horrible arguments for different classes, builds, and mechanics and people crying out for a Warrior nerf are no different. The burst skills can be dodged and are affected by blind. The Warrior can’t use them while stunned, so once stunbreaks and Stability are gone your team can proceed to stun the Warrior or immobilize him. I’ll grant you that skills can be used during immobilize, but anything but longrange skills become very limited making immobilize a very effective method of keeping a Warrior in check.

You’ve literally just described every class – blind makes them miss, they run out stunbreakers. Explaining the basic mechanics of the game is not a defense.

Honestly the sustain obtained from putting points into Defense is nice, but I have to assume you’re referring to the Cleansing Ire trait and the adrenaline based heal, as you specifically mentioned 20 points. If that’s not the case, then please tell me what is. Every class has access to toughness traits, though the secondary boost to stats varies. In any case, while Warrior get a fair amount of sustain from that tree, I wouldn’t say it’s overpowered. People have issues with Healing Signet and Adrenal Health, along with the condition removal from Cleansing Ire. So far that seems to be the main complaint, but those skills are far from unbeatable.

How you feel doesn’t matter – like you said, I want reasons. Explain to me while you feel it isn’t overpowered? My position is that the combination of HS + AH + CI facilitates too much for warriors. HS’s only weakness is poison, since you can’t interrupt it, and CI makes it hard to get poison to stick, unless you have constant access to it on a weaponset that does solid direct damage to keep the pressure up. It helps if that weapon is also ranged, since trying to melee a hammer warrior who can keep hitting Earthshaker every few seconds until it connects (among other reasons why you don’t want to melee them) is a nightmare to deal with.

Blind, Stun, Immobilize, Poison, and burst damage are all ways of getting through a Warriors defenses. Assuming the Warrior is using Healing Signet for the passive he effectively has no burst heal, unless he wants to waste the super duper amazing passive heal everyone hates. Poison alone will mess with that, if the warrior uses a Burst skill you can go in for another Condition which will eat up his heals. If you’re a burst class, unleash hell on them. If they pop Endure Pain wait 4-5 seconds while dodging or applying CC effects and get back to applying damage. Healing Signet effectively takes away the ability to burst heal, making burst damage and condition damage both highly effective so long as the Warrior can’t get out of it.

Cleansing Ire, Berserkers stance. Every CC and every block translates into more healing time. HS also takes away the ability to interrupt your heal, and is the least effected by poison (except heals that specifically remove poison before the healing) because of the HoT aspect of it.

A Warrior 4-5 seconds of no damage, 8-10 seconds of no conditions, and 8-10 seconds of Stability. This is without taking the trait that activates Balanced Stance or Endure Pain under certain conditions. Stability only lasts so long and can be corrupted. Endure Pain only lasts up to 5 seconds and conditions can still be applied. Berserker Stance only lasts up to 10 seconds, does not reduce direct damage taken, and does not affect conditions already applied.

4-5 seconds of no damage = 1600-2000 healing + whatever AH healed. 8-10 seconds of immunity to conditions is 8-10 seconds of uncounterable full HPS from HS and AH, and no way to peel/reduce the warriors effectiveness with snares/debuffs. Berserkers stance doesn’t need to affect conditions already applied, you’ve got Cleansing Ire for that.

Warriors have access to good stun abilities and a fair ability to survive, but I wouldn’t call them overpowered. They can be countered. They aren’t these unkillable monstrosities that just do not die.

I’m not complaining they’re unkillable. They just have far too much sustain without having to put a single point into healing power. Sustain is fine…when you spec properly for it.

I will now read the rest of the thread. Some people man, some people.. Tisk tisk.

As you should of before you expressed an opinion that was clearly contradicted by the posts you didn’t bother to read.

Excalibur.9748:

Ashanor.5319:

Excalibur.9748:

Stun being “shaved” was a bug fix everyone knew was coming. That was not a change based on a class being overpowered, but having a bugged sigil. It also effected many classes, not just warrior.

Use your brain to think. It’s quite obviously warrior stun getting out of hand that caused the bug to get addressed.

Your post basically went something like this;
I suck at fighting warriors and know nothing about them, please help. Then two days later you decided it was time to spam warrior forums with nerf posts. You have been discredited countless times.

Well based on the knowledge I gained from the first topic (the one where I get advice on how to deal with warriors) I knew that warrior is actually OP since I was using one of the so-called “counters” and still had immense difficulty.

At the end of the day, warrior is still OP and my initial stance has not changed.

Ever consider that your inability to properly play S/D was the problem, and not warriors?

Embarrassing. lol

Nope it had nothing to do with my playing ability. It’s also not a counter at all, warrior has all the tools necessary to deal with an S/D thief. I deal with it fine when I’m on my bunker war.

You seriously think a S/D thief doesn’t have the advantage vs a warrior? lol

I’m not saying I don’t tear bad S/D thieves to shreds, but a good one has the advantage without a doubt. Maybe they aren’t as faceroll as mesmer vs a warrior, but they are still considered strong vs warrior.

evilapprentice.6379:

You’ve literally just described every class – blind makes them miss, they run out stunbreakers. Explaining the basic mechanics of the game is not a defense.

Dodge, block, invulnerability, blind, and even moving around are all defensive abilities that can help reduce or avoid damage and are game mechanics. Blind prevents you from being hit, burst skills require contact to utilize Cleansing Ire, meaning blind can effectively prevent that from happening for one round of burst. It takes timing and prediction or just plain luck, but it certainly helps. Dodging or blocking a skill will let you avoid the effects and damage of that skill making them helpful as well.

evilapprentice.6379:

How you feel doesn’t matter – like you said, I want reasons. Explain to me while you feel it isn’t overpowered? My position is that the combination of HS + AH + CI facilitates too much for warriors. HS’s only weakness is poison, since you can’t interrupt it, and CI makes it hard to get poison to stick, unless you have constant access to it on a weaponset that does solid direct damage to keep the pressure up. It helps if that weapon is also ranged, since trying to melee a hammer warrior who can keep hitting Earthshaker every few seconds until it connects (among other reasons why you don’t want to melee them) is a nightmare to deal with.

If how I feel doesn’t matter then neither does how anyone else feels on either side of the subject. I don’t believe the combination of those skills to be as overpowered as you seem to think. Healing Signet and Adrenal Health are great together but HS is weak to burst and poison. Any damaging condition will help to keep the pressure up, Torment and Bleed can help eat through the heals as you’re dealing damage to the Warrior. He either has to tank it out or use HS which takes away the passive heal making him easier to deal with. It may be hard to stack a specific condition but the Warrior has no control over which conditions are cleansed.

A great way to get around Earthshaker is movement. If you move around it becomes difficult to hit you as it’s a ground target skill. That, with blind and dodgeroll can allow a skilled player to dodge it often enough. Stunbreaks can also be slotted to get out of the stun, should it land.

evilapprentice.6379:

Cleansing Ire, Berserkers stance. Every CC and every block translates into more healing time. HS also takes away the ability to interrupt your heal, and is the least effected by poison (except heals that specifically remove poison before the healing) because of the HoT aspect of it.

Cleansing Ire only works if it connects and Berserkers Stance doesn’t affect conditions already on you along with having a long cooldown. Once it wears off it’s unlikely it’ll be off cooldown until another fight. Constant damage and conditions all help to eat through HS. Something with high burst will have significant impact against the Warrior. Even with the HoT aspect Poison is still effective at reducing the healing it grants, even if temporarily. At the very least you can force a burst skill prematurely if the Warrior needs to cleanse conditions.

evilapprentice.6379:

4-5 seconds of no damage = 1600-2000 healing + whatever AH healed. 8-10 seconds of immunity to conditions is 8-10 seconds of uncounterable full HPS from HS and AH, and no way to peel/reduce the warriors effectiveness with snares/debuffs. Berserkers stance doesn’t need to affect conditions already applied, you’ve got Cleansing Ire for that.

That 4-5 seconds isn’t immunity to CC or conditions. Once Endure Pain ends it can’t be used for a very long time and 2k HP is not a large amount at all. It’s decent, but 2k HP in a multi person fight goes away pretty quickly once utilities are used up. Immunity to conditions is not immunity to damage, remember how Warriors are weak to burst damage? You can still capitalize on that. Just because conditions are useless for a period of time doesn’t mean you can’t negate HS+AH heals. Cleansing Ire will only cleanse 3 conditions max. If you hit a target.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m not complaining they’re unkillable. They just have far too much sustain without having to put a single point into healing power. Sustain is fine…when you spec properly for it.

I disagree. You don’t really offer any argument here, so I see no need to offer a counter-argument. You know, since you can’t really counter something that isn’t there.

evilapprentice.6379:

As you should of before you expressed an opinion that was clearly contradicted by the posts you didn’t bother to read.

I still haven’t gotten around to reading them. I got sidetracked by sPvP. I’ll give them a read now. I should hope they do a better job than you of contradicting my statements.

Zanryu.3417:

I don’t have time to read through the rest of this thread, but I have read the first page. I’m going to sum this up with a statement I got from a thief when discussing the current state of stealth.

“It’s in the game, so it’s not broken. That’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Nobody ever seems to give a legitimate argument and when met with a counter argument they get raged at or told Warrior are OP without any actual math or experience to back it up. I’ve had this happen to me personally, and while it’s laughable, it shows how pitiful some people can truly be when it comes to the game.

If you think Warriors are overpowered give a good example of how they’re broken. If you can’t do that, kindly save your crying for the next fotm class/build.

Since you haven’t bothered to read through the thread how do you know that counter arguments and math have not been discussed? You have just jumped in and said “I read the first page and jumped to the conclusion everyone is an idiot”

Show’s how pitiful the forums are when people base entire opinions on the first page of a thread…see what I did there?

Loco.4561:

Zanryu.3417:

I don’t have time to read through the rest of this thread, but I have read the first page. I’m going to sum this up with a statement I got from a thief when discussing the current state of stealth.

“It’s in the game, so it’s not broken. That’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Nobody ever seems to give a legitimate argument and when met with a counter argument they get raged at or told Warrior are OP without any actual math or experience to back it up. I’ve had this happen to me personally, and while it’s laughable, it shows how pitiful some people can truly be when it comes to the game.

If you think Warriors are overpowered give a good example of how they’re broken. If you can’t do that, kindly save your crying for the next fotm class/build.

Since you haven’t bothered to read through the thread how do you know that counter arguments and math have not been discussed? You have just jumped in and said “I read the first page and jumped to the conclusion everyone is an idiot”

Show’s how pitiful the forums are when people base entire opinions on the first page of a thread…see what I did there?

Interesting, rather than address the arguments and counter-arguments I’ve made, you choose to stick to one irrelevant fact. I just read through the thread and I saw no actual legitimate arguments, save for the math done on Healing Signet+Adrenal Health. Though that’s more of a tidbit of information rather than an actual argument.

So far this thread has had mostly childish posters, much like yourself, posting nonsense and going in circles. Circles that benefit neither side.

With people like you, I guess I’d have to agree. The forums are pitiful. See what I did there?

Most of these people need to learn 2 play. Also doom sigils work wonders against any regen builds and are very underrated!

Ashanor.5319:

Excalibur.9748:

Ashanor.5319:

Excalibur.9748:

Stun being “shaved” was a bug fix everyone knew was coming. That was not a change based on a class being overpowered, but having a bugged sigil. It also effected many classes, not just warrior.

Use your brain to think. It’s quite obviously warrior stun getting out of hand that caused the bug to get addressed.

Your post basically went something like this;
I suck at fighting warriors and know nothing about them, please help. Then two days later you decided it was time to spam warrior forums with nerf posts. You have been discredited countless times.

Well based on the knowledge I gained from the first topic (the one where I get advice on how to deal with warriors) I knew that warrior is actually OP since I was using one of the so-called “counters” and still had immense difficulty.

At the end of the day, warrior is still OP and my initial stance has not changed.

Ever consider that your inability to properly play S/D was the problem, and not warriors?

Embarrassing. lol

Nope it had nothing to do with my playing ability. It’s also not a counter at all, warrior has all the tools necessary to deal with an S/D thief. I deal with it fine when I’m on my bunker war.

You seriously think a S/D thief doesn’t have the advantage vs a warrior? lol

I’m not saying I don’t tear bad S/D thieves to shreds, but a good one has the advantage without a doubt. Maybe they aren’t as faceroll as mesmer vs a warrior, but they are still considered strong vs warrior.

I honestly don’t think S/D is a counter to warrior, otherwise I wouldn’t have abandoned my S/D thief (zerk ammy with celestial gem aka glass cannon!) for a warrior! I rage quit a game one time when I saw this warrior’s HP not drop at all from my AA. That warrior is me these days.

The issue with warrior is a simple one. It has many strong builds but overall its sustain between it’s stuns invul states, and condition management is too high. What makes it funny is that it really isn’t far off from the old DD bunker except it has higher sustained, much higher mobility, and more stuns (not to mention better stat contributions every where except healing power) where old DD bunker had better condi management.

I mained warrior for 5 months. I posted many threads begging Anet for buffs. I waited a month after the Mc/Sh + GS meta (to test it myself) before I said a kitten thing about it. The minute I explained why it was OP I got bashed by the same people I posted with asking for buffs the month before. That is the truth of the situation. Hypocrisy is rampant. The devs are learning their lesson from buffing and nerfing too much and too heavy handedly early on forcing us to deal with the meta and figure out what they could not.

Every player with some sort of objectivity and game knowledge pretty much knows what is blatantly OP in the game as of this moment. They know that when the build they did ok with before now lets them win nigh every 1 v x it is probably OP. They generally go with it, enjoy the wins, and account their new success to being better at the game then someone else. They will jump on a class beat some one who they guess is using a build similar to their own and justify their own build. It is a situation you bump into so often it isn’t even funny. S/D buff for thieves, Dhuumfire and terror for necro, kit refinement for engineer, Shattered Strength for mesmer, the list goes on and on. Players knew it was OP who played the class at the time and still they did so and defend their builds.

The most begrudging thing to get a player to say is. “You might have over buffed us”. In the minds of many players there is no such thing as this.

Anet won’t make a move fearing we will figure something else out to throw balance out of whack. Many players will flock to the fotm get their wins and defend their builds. I will sit on the side lines for now. Being OP really is not my thing. I hope Anet in the future gets some more eyes on balance.

TheGuy.3568:

The issue with warrior is a simple one. It has many strong builds but overall its sustain between it’s stuns invul states, and condition management is too high. What makes it funny is that it really isn’t far off from the old DD bunker except it has higher sustained, much higher mobility, and more stuns (not to mention better stat contributions every where except healing power) where old DD bunker had better condi management.

I mained warrior for 5 months. I posted many threads begging Anet for buffs. I waited a month after the Mc/Sh + GS meta (to test it myself) before I said a kitten thing about it. The minute I explained why it was OP I got bashed by the same people I posted with asking for buffs the month before. That is the truth of the situation. Hypocrisy is rampant. The devs are learning their lesson from buffing and nerfing too much and too heavy handedly early on forcing us to deal with the meta and figure out what they could not.

Every player with some sort of objectivity and game knowledge pretty much knows what is blatantly OP in the game as of this moment. They know that when the build they did ok with before now lets them win nigh every 1 v x it is probably OP. They generally go with it, enjoy the wins, and account their new success to being better at the game then someone else. They will jump on a class beat some one who they guess is using a build similar to their own and justify their own build. It is a situation you bump into so often it isn’t even funny. S/D buff for thieves, Dhuumfire and terror for necro, kit refinement for engineer, Shattered Strength for mesmer, the list goes on and on. Players knew it was OP who played the class at the time and still they did so and defend their builds.

The most begrudging thing to get a player to say is. “You might have over buffed us”. In the minds of many players there is no such thing as this.

Anet won’t make a move fearing we will figure something else out to throw balance out of whack. Many players will flock to the fotm get their wins and defend their builds. I will sit on the side lines for now. Being OP really is not my thing. I hope Anet in the future gets some more eyes on balance.

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

Zanryu.3417:

If how I feel doesn’t matter then neither does how anyone else feels on either side of the subject. I don’t believe the combination of those skills to be as overpowered as you seem to think. Healing Signet and Adrenal Health are great together but HS is weak to burst and poison. Any damaging condition will help to keep the pressure up, Torment and Bleed can help eat through the heals as you’re dealing damage to the Warrior. He either has to tank it out or use HS which takes away the passive heal making him easier to deal with. It may be hard to stack a specific condition but the Warrior has no control over which conditions are cleansed.

I’ll just run my 30/30/30/30/30 spec with access to great burst, poison, and enough damaging conditions to overpower both berserks and cleansing ire. Fantastic advice, I don’t know how I possibly didn’t think of it first.

A great way to get around Earthshaker is movement. If you move around it becomes difficult to hit you as it’s a ground target skill. That, with blind and dodgeroll can allow a skilled player to dodge it often enough. Stunbreaks can also be slotted to get out of the stun, should it land.

Oh man, moving out of a 240 radius with 600 range, why didn’t I think of that? Obvious its possible for my melee spec to do so in .75s. all my stunbreakers are on a 10s cooldown as well. I’ve been such a fool. Whats the CD on a dodged Burst skill that costs 0 adrenaline again?

Cleansing Ire only works if it connects and Berserkers Stance doesn’t affect conditions already on you along with having a long cooldown. Once it wears off it’s unlikely it’ll be off cooldown until another fight. Constant damage and conditions all help to eat through HS. Something with high burst will have significant impact against the Warrior. Even with the HoT aspect Poison is still effective at reducing the healing it grants, even if temporarily. At the very least you can force a burst skill prematurely if the Warrior needs to cleanse conditions.

Again you’re right – I’ll use my infinite endurance and 10s stunbreaks to ensure I don’t ever get hit with a burst skill. You can even dodge combustion shot!

That 4-5 seconds isn’t immunity to CC or conditions.

Again, countered handily with my 30/30/30/30/30 spec.

Once Endure Pain ends it can’t be used for a very long time and 2k HP is not a large amount at all. It’s decent, but 2k HP in a multi person fight goes away pretty quickly once utilities are used up.

Oh of course, I just have to bring multiple people to fight 1 non-bunker – how silly of me.

Immunity to conditions is not immunity to damage, remember how Warriors are weak to burst damage? You can still capitalize on that. Just because conditions are useless for a period of time doesn’t mean you can’t negate HS+AH heals. Cleansing Ire will only cleanse 3 conditions max. If you hit a target.

Yes, warriors running soldiers amulets and using unsuspecting foe to boost their damage are very weak to burst damage, with their high armor and highest base HP in the game.

I disagree. You don’t really offer any argument here, so I see no need to offer a counter-argument. You know, since you can’t really counter something that isn’t there.

I’m surprised you can see anything at all with the blinders you’re wearing.

When I point out their condition immunity and cleansing, you suggest burst. When I point out their high hp, armor, HPS, and multiple way to buy time with stuns, blocks, and psuedo immunes, you point out how they’re not immune to conditions.

So I get it – run 30/30/30/30/30 with my amulet that gives me + 798 to every stat and I’ll be fine.

yeah there is a lot of stuff that is broken right now. perma immobilize and perma stun is not fun for non warriors and then ther is regen warriors…. dont know why this is in the game even…..

selan.8354:

yeah there is a lot of stuff that is broken right now. perma immobilize and perma stun is not fun for non warriors and then ther is regen warriors…. dont know why this is in the game even…..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH9JjnaW3rE

hahahahaa that reminds me on that one warrior trebbing clocktower entire time…took so long to kill him >_<

From an elementalist perspective, all classes are unbalanced, with warriors being the most egregious example. From the warrior’s perspective, most classes are balanced, and perhaps they’d concede that some classes require a bit more love and attention than others… e.g., the elementalist. These views on balance are neither correct nor incorrect, but relative to what people play most consistently in the current meta.

As such, most of you are arguing semantics. Claiming "most classes are overpowered " is equivalent with saying “a few classes are underpowered.” Fundamentally, I think we all agree that the majority of professions are in a good place at the moment: warriors, guardians, mesmers, necromancers, thieves, engineers, and rangers. All of these classes are viable in tournament play, and all of them bring something unique to a match.

The anomaly is clearly the elementalist. This is why you will find the greatest amount of grief and criticism on that subforum. Once people see and understand that, it will be clear what needs to happen. The solution is not to nerf warriors or anyone else, but to plead with arenanet to bring the elementalist back to a respectable level.

style.6173:

It’s more that warrior and necro both have OP builds right now. Those two classes definitely need some type of change.

wrong. they are fine now.

it is the other professions that need some buffing up.

Ashanor.5319:

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

What about what I said was wrong? So far you fall right into what I said in the post. smh. I will say it again if you quote me read me. If not whats the point of having a discussion? Read your other post in this topic. We do not need to have a discussion. It will just lead to some type of back a forth with you insulting me randomly and not discussing the facts. Not doing that. So I read your post. I disagree. Discussion between you and me done.

Sadly the ‘exaggeration’ in the OP’s post is barely exaggerated at all…

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

style.6173:

It’s more that warrior and necro both have OP builds right now. Those two classes definitely need some type of change.

wrong. they are fine now.

it is the other professions that need some buffing up.

Buffing the other professions would be totally wrong. If Anet is only buffing the weakest class(es) they run into a big problem. Because there will be no 100% balanced game and one class will be the weakest or one the strongest every time. They can manage to reduce this difference by tweeking numbers, etc. But if they only buff everything, sooner or later everyone will get some kind of godmode because we only can get better and better. Making the game boring and they lose their players.

I am sorry to use that word, because no one likes it, but they have also to nerf the strongest while buffing the weakest class in game to stay on one level.

Right now the warrior is strong in every build/playstyle the game offers. There is nothing a warrior can’t do very well! Other classes can do one or two builds very well but have a huge lack in other parts of the game. I don’t want to say that there should be only one or two builds per class, that would be wrong , too. And the other classes need some buffs there, but there can’t be a class in a game, that has a good build for every situation. What makes the warrior strong in every build is his huge sustain, relatively good damage and his good movement.

Every class needs their downsides or would you love to see a high movement condi necro?

Of course there is a lot of exaggeration but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t contain truth in it. Because it does.

I feel there is too many passive and fire and forget mechanics with warriors. But this applies to many classes/builds in the game as well.

There is too big of rewards vs little risk. Become immune to conditions for 8 secs, what is the risk other than the cd? In gw1 you would of become immune to conditions for 8 secs but at the cost of something else important.

Perhaps going immune to conditions for 8 secs would half your damage for the duration. With more risks involved it forces intelligent decision making instead of just doing things because your choices really do not matter.

TheGuy.3568:

Ashanor.5319:

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

What about what I said was wrong? So far you fall right into what I said in the post. smh. I will say it again if you quote me read me. If not whats the point of having a discussion? Read your other post in this topic. We do not need to have a discussion. It will just lead to some type of back a forth with you insulting me randomly and not discussing the facts. Not doing that. So I read your post. I disagree. Discussion between you and me done.

Except, I and many others have discussed the facts many times. Your side fails to see the facts and just screams things like… “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool” and then we explain why that is alright then your side says “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool”. It’s a never ending cycle of bads perpetuating myths and not listening to reason.

Ashanor.5319:

TheGuy.3568:

Ashanor.5319:

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

What about what I said was wrong? So far you fall right into what I said in the post. smh. I will say it again if you quote me read me. If not whats the point of having a discussion? Read your other post in this topic. We do not need to have a discussion. It will just lead to some type of back a forth with you insulting me randomly and not discussing the facts. Not doing that. So I read your post. I disagree. Discussion between you and me done.

Except, I and many others have discussed the facts many times. Your side fails to see the facts and just screams things like… “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool” and then we explain why that is alright then your side says “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool”. It’s a never ending cycle of bads perpetuating myths and not listening to reason.

Looking through your post history for this specific thread, I don’t see much of an explanation, just derisive BS and “Our side is right, you’re a noob if you disagree” – maybe I just missed it.

My stance is that HS + AH +CI need to be looked at – the passive healing warriors get for no investment into healing power and a mere 20 points in traitline is a bit much. It facilitates too much, and is much too forgiving. There are other possible issues, but it’s hard to judge accurately until this interaction is looked into.

As just an anectode (which isn’t solid proof of course, but certainly says something), I rolled a 0/10/30/0/30 Hambow warrior last night, and fought a couple fights with a necro 1 on 1 – it was embarrassing. The spec was so forgiving I won most of the fights, despite a LONG list of issues with my spec, my amulet, and how well I played.

- While I got the major parts of the spec right, I’m sure I messed up some of the less obvious traits.
- I was wearing a soldiers amulet – this isn’t a bad idea in general, but against a condi focused necro, the toughness was a complete waste and a berserkers ammy would have been much better
- We were in skyhammer, and after he got effortlessly demolished on point a few times, he started using the terrain to kite me me around very effectively.
- My runes weren’t the best choice for how poorly I was playing.
- I was using fast cast, and not used to the 600 range/240 radius on ES, so I whiffed that a bunch of times.
- Having never played warrior, I mixed up skills more than a few times – wasting Arcing arrow when I meant to use smoldering arrow, wasting fierce blow because I meant to use Hammer shock, etc.
- My reaction time was fairly slow, because I was still new to all my skills.
- 2 of my utilities were potentially sub-par – i was of course using zerkers stance, but the other 2 I just guessed at (Dolyak and balanced stance).

I couldn’t tell you if he was an amazing player, but he most certainly wasn’t trash – he knew what he was doing to a fair degree, and tried desperately to keep me away from him. He got better and better with every fight, and I just kept plodding along and killing him. The only fights I lost were ones where I made a laundry list of mistakes – missing 80% of my ES’s, not switching to Lbow to effortlessly drop conditions with combustion shot, forgetting to break out of fear, forgetting to use Berserker’s stance before he bombed me with 6-7 conditions, letting myself be kited around one of skyhammer holes… it was painful to be a part of.

I can’t imagine making that many mistakes on any other class I had just started playing and still coming out victorious.

evilapprentice.6379:

Ashanor.5319:

TheGuy.3568:

Ashanor.5319:

Oh, you again. It’s hilarious that I recognize so many names from this thread as whiners from the warrior forums a few months back. Same old people still trying to perpetuate the myths and get classes nerfed.

What about what I said was wrong? So far you fall right into what I said in the post. smh. I will say it again if you quote me read me. If not whats the point of having a discussion? Read your other post in this topic. We do not need to have a discussion. It will just lead to some type of back a forth with you insulting me randomly and not discussing the facts. Not doing that. So I read your post. I disagree. Discussion between you and me done.

Except, I and many others have discussed the facts many times. Your side fails to see the facts and just screams things like… “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool” and then we explain why that is alright then your side says “but heeling signet r moar powerful than othur passive heels /drool”. It’s a never ending cycle of bads perpetuating myths and not listening to reason.

Looking through your post history for this specific thread, I don’t see much of an explanation, just derisive BS and “Our side is right, you’re a noob if you disagree” – maybe I just missed it.

My stance is that HS + AH +CI need to be looked at – the passive healing warriors get for no investment into healing power and a mere 20 points in traitline is a bit much. It facilitates too much, and is much too forgiving. There are other possible issues, but it’s hard to judge accurately until this interaction is looked into.

As just an anectode (which isn’t solid proof of course, but certainly says something), I rolled a 0/10/30/0/30 Hambow warrior last night, and fought a couple fights with a necro 1 on 1 – it was embarrassing. The spec was so forgiving I won most of the fights, despite a LONG list of issues with my spec, my amulet, and how well I played.

- While I got the major parts of the spec right, I’m sure I messed up some of the less obvious traits.
- I was wearing a soldiers amulet – this isn’t a bad idea in general, but against a condi focused necro, the toughness was a complete waste and a berserkers ammy would have been much better
- We were in skyhammer, and after he got effortlessly demolished on point a few times, he started using the terrain to kite me me around very effectively.
- My runes weren’t the best choice for how poorly I was playing.
- I was using fast cast, and not used to the 600 range/240 radius on ES, so I whiffed that a bunch of times.
- Having never played warrior, I mixed up skills more than a few times – wasting Arcing arrow when I meant to use smoldering arrow, wasting fierce blow because I meant to use Hammer shock, etc.
- My reaction time was fairly slow, because I was still new to all my skills.
- 2 of my utilities were potentially sub-par – i was of course using zerkers stance, but the other 2 I just guessed at (Dolyak and balanced stance).

I couldn’t tell you if he was an amazing player, but he most certainly wasn’t trash – he knew what he was doing to a fair degree, and tried desperately to keep me away from him. He got better and better with every fight, and I just kept plodding along and killing him. The only fights I lost were ones where I made a laundry list of mistakes – missing 80% of my ES’s, not switching to Lbow to effortlessly drop conditions with combustion shot, forgetting to break out of fear, forgetting to use Berserker’s stance before he bombed me with 6-7 conditions, letting myself be kited around one of skyhammer holes… it was painful to be a part of.

I can’t imagine making that many mistakes on any other class I had just started playing and still coming out victorious.

Another post that includes misinformation.

0/10/30/0/30 Hammer and Shortbow isn’t called Hambow. The correct term is Rambo.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ll just run my 30/30/30/30/30 spec with access to great burst, poison, and enough damaging conditions to overpower both berserks and cleansing ire. Fantastic advice, I don’t know how I possibly didn’t think of it first.

Wow, look at all the logic and well thought out points in your statement. Gee wiz, I can’t argue with that!

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh man, moving out of a 240 radius with 600 range, why didn’t I think of that? Obvious its possible for my melee spec to do so in .75s. all my stunbreakers are on a 10s cooldown as well. I’ve been such a fool. Whats the CD on a dodged Burst skill that costs 0 adrenaline again?

You do realize melee isn’t the only style of combat, right? You can’t reduce the effectiveness of something with part of your reasoning being “I can’t dodge it if I’m in melee range”. Many melee users carry a range weapon depending on their build (Hammer/Longbow build anyone?) and aren’t required to stand in range of the attack to hit. The option of dodgerolling is still available in melee range, as well as applying blinds or moving away.

Let me give you some advice when you dodge a burst. Either run away if you feel you’ve exhausted too many resources to be effective, or go all out and burst your target down. This is the second paragraph of your post and you have yet to offer any decent counter-argument.

evilapprentice.6379:

Again you’re right – I’ll use my infinite endurance and 10s stunbreaks to ensure I don’t ever get hit with a burst skill. You can even dodge combustion shot!

More sarcasm that does nothing to help your case. We’re at the third point and you’re still resorting to sarcasm, which would be fine if you actually had some kind of argument. Sarcasm by itself shows you’ve got nothing significant to add to the discussion and should really just step away.

evilapprentice.6379:

Again, countered handily with my 30/30/30/30/30 spec.

Read the above comment about sarcasm.

evilapprentice.6379:

Oh of course, I just have to bring multiple people to fight 1 non-bunker – how silly of me.

Okay, I’ll bite. Warriors can be brought down 1v1, especially by people using DPS builds and especially if the Warrior in question is using one himself. If the Warrior is traited to bunk, then guess what. He’s classified as a bunker and as much as you’d like to complain about a bunker being hard to take down 1v1 and how overpowered it is you need to realize, that’s kind of the point. Bunkers are supposed to be hard to bring down. Oh, and Warriors aren’t the only class that can bunker.

evilapprentice.6379:

Yes, warriors running soldiers amulets and using unsuspecting foe to boost their damage are very weak to burst damage, with their high armor and highest base HP in the game.

Unsuspecting Foe only works against enemies that are stunned, with a Hambow build that Warrior has only one 2 second stun. With a full support Mace+Shield/Hammer build they have 3 stuns, one 1, one 2, and one 3 second one (or more depending on sigils). With a Mace+Shield/Greatsword build they have two stuns. The 1 second stun is nearly inconsequential, as it lasts too little of time to take advantage of Unsuspecting Foe. It’s more for gap closing and keeping the opponent close to stunlock them.

There are stunbreaks, Stability, and utility skills that can grant stealth, invulnerability, block, and all manner of ways to counter the damage done by certain Warrior builds. You’re forgetting to mention that not every build will have Unsuspecting Foe. Also, do I really have to cover Healing Signet’s weakness again?

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m surprised you can see anything at all with the blinders you’re wearing.

Oooh, that one stung. Sick burn man, sick burn. Gonna have to get some Aloe for that one.

evilapprentice.6379:

When I point out their condition immunity and cleansing, you suggest burst. When I point out their high hp, armor, HPS, and multiple way to buy time with stuns, blocks, and psuedo immunes, you point out how they’re not immune to conditions.

So I get it – run 30/30/30/30/30 with my amulet that gives me + 798 to every stat and I’ll be fine.

Quite a few classes have access to conditions along with direct damage. Mesmers can apply confusion and bleeds, Thieves can apply poison and bleeds, Guardians can apply burns and blind, Necros can use hybrid builds with both damage and conditions. A Warrior’s ability to mitigate both types of damage comes at the cost of two utility slots and having to use skills with long cooldowns that do nothing to help their damage output.

This is the saddest thread i’ve seen in a very very long time.
The argument is warriors aren’t overpowered. Which is just silly.
And to prove that its being compared to the best of other classes.

That because warriors aren’t the best at everything that they don’t need to be touched.
That they don’t spike as hard as a thief. Or don’t mid bunker as well as a guard (which they do and more), or don’t have the mobility as an ele all at the same time that they are okay. Well they shouldn’t

First let me say that i rarely have an issue with warriors. S/S – Longbow every now and then gives me issues. And M/S – Hammer is normally a bit too annoying to deal with. But just because me (an above average player) doesn’t have an issue against most of them doesn’t mean they aren’t over the top.

Warriors themselves just have a bit too much of everything rolled into one. (sounds a lot like the ele before they were nerfed right). They don’t hit like trucks (in the fotm builds) but they hit really hard, they don’t survive like bunkers (though they are really close) but they can outlive most classes, they don’t escape like thieves and mesmers but they can almost always get away. And when you take all those things and roll it up into a ball and place it on one class you find that that class is over the top.

And the worst part are there are just 0! counters to fighting warriors.
-You aren’t out bunkering them, they have almost as much survivalbility as a guard but tag on heavy CC and moderated damage (which is way more dmg than a bunker guard has).
-You aren’t bursting them, they enough natural hp and massive amounts of toughness, CDs that make them unstunable, unconditionable, and undamageable on moderate CD. Not to mention a 3 sec block (which if you count 3 aegis (1 natural, 1 Virtue, and 1 from shout) is just as much if not more than a guard. On top of CCs to mitigate dmg.
-You aren’t Conditioning them to death. if you can keep conditions on them at all. Cleanse Ire + Lyssa on Signets of rage + Berserker’s Stance + (if you take it Shake it off if you want) + (Dogged March if you take it) you’re conditions arent sticking because almost every build has the first three and some take the last 2 as well meaning you aren’t keeping conditions on him. Where most classes, lets say guards, can take off a burst of about 8 conditions on about 25 – 45 sec CDs, warriors are dropping them in their natural rotation all the time as well as just becoming immune to it.
-And lastly you just aren’t going to kill him. The warrior does moderate damage without giving up any survival. He has moderate to good survival naturally, conditions are removed at a very high rate and their mobility as well as CC is among the top of all the classes.

And all of that information, Is rolled into 1 build
Yes players have a tendency to go over the top when they are upset. But the sad thing is most of the information is close to true.
And if you have so many counters to these warrior build i would LOVE to hear it. And “Just bring friends” isn’t a viable strat and just letting one profession be better than the rest is terrible terrible game design.
Also i play my PvP warrior all the time (mostly when i want to faceroll things) and the only thing i fear in pvp in my Fotm spec is other warriors or 3 people.

I agree warriors are S tier atm and maybe that’s what ANET wants. I also feel that the warriors need to be able to clear those condis to be effective, though. If other classes had more access to stability that would definitely even things out.

Also the funniest part about this thread.
Is it covers “Mis-information about warriors” (hahaha) and instead switches it to other classes.
Lets take guard (my main) for example

They are said to have all this protection,blocks,blinds,Sanctuaries, invulns , stasbility, and condition counters.

This is that amazing tPvP everyone wants guards build
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-73xs;1NFk40J3kF-90;9;69TT;44;048A2895wl6;2ZF18ZF183NV

Well first if they are mid bunker
Blinds They have 0 blinds. They aren’t using greatsword or sword. And aren’t traited for blinds at all.
Protection Using Shout, virtue they have 9 secs of protection, if they have to blow their elite and use it a second time its 14. And they can squeeze another 3 secs out of the hammer 3rd attacks. So 14 sec protection uptime on a 35 (for the shout), 70 (for the virtue), and 90 (for the elite) cooldown
Blocks HA Even using their shield. Guards have 1 natural block, and 1 from their virtue. And if they can use their elite bam a 3rd one. So thats 2 blocks on a 70 sec CD 90 if elite. And then its their healing skill. 2 secs on a 30 sec CD. Btw untraited warrior shield block is 3 secs on a 30sec CD not factoring in healing sig, or utilities.
Sanctuary that bread and butter right? its protection bubble on a whopping 120 CD, that stops projectiles (which is awesome), people without stability from entering, as well as 2.6k healing. Though it doesn’t stop ground targeting. Uh 120 CD is more than most elites in the game, 2.6 k heals is about 6 secs of healing sig, most classes have at least 1 form of stability, and most classes also have a form of ground targeting. I’m not saying its useless but i would trade it for berserkers stance.
Invlun(s) – 3 sec on a 90 sec CD. Moving on
Stability the one thing that we guards to have to our name. Is AoE stability. though it isn’t as long as beserkers stance and doesn’t activate as well when we’re knocked down or CCed (god knows why it doesn’t) its still AoE and has a use there
And condition counters (HA…hahaha) Conditions – total of like 8. 3 from virtue of justice, 3 from shouts, and 2 passively (if you haven’t used your heal). And then its on at least a 25 sec CD – and 45 for virtue of justice. Which btw way adds on about 9 secs to your life in the condition meta. Guards sure as heck don’t cleanse conditions half as well as warriors and at the rate they are reapplied are just destroyed by them.

So there. Though the “MisInformation” There is your truth about guardians. I don’t have the time or want to do this for every class. But yea if you choose survival for bunker for guard. You aren’t doing dmg alone, If you need to condition clear you aren’t taking as much upfront dmg or doing as much of it either. Its a system of balancing what you need which allows other classes to counterplay you. (btw warriors don’t go by that)

The problem with warrior is that they do everything a little too well. They do comparable/more damage than other direct dmg classes (thief/ele/mesmer), they survive better than other direct dmg classes (thief/ele/mesmer), they cc better than thief/ele/mesmer, and they have comparable mobility. Blance becomes an issue when 1 class does EVERYTHING better than the other classes in their “role”.

You could argue that ele has more sustain than warrior, but ele actually has to manage cooldowns and atunement swaps to maintain this survivability, warrior doesn’t have to do anything really (except activiate zerker stance vs condi class/thiefs). Warrior can just kite for a few seconds if they get low, then jump back into the fight. Furthermore, ele does considerably less damage and has less access to CC, the mobility is comparable depending on the wep sets used -but warrior usually wins here too.

You could then argue that thief has more damage (d/p backstab burst), but thief has a 14k health pool, virtually no toughness, and a heal on a 30s cd (15s for withdraw, but I think that’s less popular in this build). Sure thief has more mobility with sb5, but thief has nearly 0 hard cc. The difference in damage and mobility between thief and warrior is pretty small to begin with.

I’m not even going to talk about mesmer in this meta.

Consider why this misinformation arises in the first place, warrior is incredibly overpowered right now, people playing against it get stunlocked for what seems like an eternity, any damage they do seems to be regened passively, and all at the same time they’re taking heaps of damage themselves. People exaggerate based on the experience they have playing as/against warriors. From my own personal experience, I used to have a tough time on warrior, but now it’s one of the easiest classes for me to play comfortably. -That’s not a coincidence lol.

/sigh

Not worth my time. Go ahead and keep screaming for nerfs people. Eventually the nerf bat comes back around to you.

war is OP , no way :P

http://pl.twitch.tv/forsaker_/c/3130544

Forsaker.9213:

war is OP , no way :P

http://pl.twitch.tv/forsaker_/c/3130544

How rare, a video where the Necro waits until the Warrior uses its Berserker Stance and Burst before unloading their conditions and keeps the Warrior from gaining more adren which keeps them from cleansing the conditions. You also didn’t stand in the Combustive Shot. Good use of the environment to make things even easier on yourself.

I can’t totally tell if you’re being sarcastic or not though. I mean the video shows you destroying a Warrior running Hambow but the way you wrote it sounds sarcastic.

Ashanor.5319:

/sigh

Not worth my time. Go ahead and keep screaming for nerfs people. Eventually the nerf bat comes back around to you.

Noone is screaming dude. This thread was about warriors not being as OP as everyone claims. This thread isn’t right. It isn’t wrong But it sure as heck isn’t right.

Warriors are very close to what everyone say. Its exxaggered because they say they tank 100%, Deal Dmg, 100%, and Condition 100% and they dont’ do all that in one build. But over the course of 3 builds they counter/outclass pretty much 100% of the other professions.

Noone wants them back to where they were right after the quickness nerf. I’m glad to see them beating peoples faces in. Just in terms of PvP there isn’t a reason not to play warrior. And currently it invalidates almost all the other classes.

I don’t want to see them beat with a nerf bat. I would just enjoy seeing them brought to the level of other classes. (not all classes brought up to them. Because juggernauts fighting in a room full of juggernauts doesn’t really sound fun)

Zodian.6597:

Consider why this misinformation arises in the first place, warrior is incredibly overpowered right now, people playing against it get stunlocked for what seems like an eternity, any damage they do seems to be regened passively, and all at the same time they’re taking heaps of damage themselves. People exaggerate based on the experience they have playing as/against warriors. From my own personal experience, I used to have a tough time on warrior, but now it’s one of the easiest classes for me to play comfortably. -That’s not a coincidence lol.

Misinformation starts with one very loud bad player, then there are ignorant players that parrots what that one bad player says.

That is how misinformation arises.

runeblade.7514:

Zodian.6597:

Consider why this misinformation arises in the first place, warrior is incredibly overpowered right now, people playing against it get stunlocked for what seems like an eternity, any damage they do seems to be regened passively, and all at the same time they’re taking heaps of damage themselves. People exaggerate based on the experience they have playing as/against warriors. From my own personal experience, I used to have a tough time on warrior, but now it’s one of the easiest classes for me to play comfortably. -That’s not a coincidence lol.

Misinformation starts with one very loud bad player, then there are ignorant players that parrots what that one bad player says.

That is how misinformation arises.

I wouldn’t really say that.

It actually comes from a player (normally average) who runs into an obstacle (warriors) and then trys to take a few different ways to attack this obstacle (trying new builds and classes, fighting in different ways) and failing each time become frustrated.

The reason warriors get such loud bad mouthing is because they cover such a wide spectrum of power.

They have one of the best (if it isn’t the best) bunker builds
Their conditions hit just as hard (if not harder with the duration on leg specialist) as some of the most powerful condi builds out there
And their FOTM build does a little bit of everything a bit too much.

So when you blend all this together (because you get a bit of all the complaints over the forums) you hear.

“OMG warrios have 30/30/30/30/30 builds, And stomp everywhere, 100% face roll. Nerf,nerf,nerf,nerf!!!!!”

So its not really bad players or anyones fault its just how it goes when the class has gone over the top in a few too many areas

Kentrey.3251:

Ashanor.5319:

/sigh

Not worth my time. Go ahead and keep screaming for nerfs people. Eventually the nerf bat comes back around to you.

Noone is screaming dude. This thread was about warriors not being as OP as everyone claims. This thread isn’t right. It isn’t wrong But it sure as heck isn’t right.

Warriors are very close to what everyone say. Its exxaggered because they say they tank 100%, Deal Dmg, 100%, and Condition 100% and they dont’ do all that in one build. But over the course of 3 builds they counter/outclass pretty much 100% of the other professions.

Noone wants them back to where they were right after the quickness nerf. I’m glad to see them beating peoples faces in. Just in terms of PvP there isn’t a reason not to play warrior. And currently it invalidates almost all the other classes.

I don’t want to see them beat with a nerf bat. I would just enjoy seeing them brought to the level of other classes. (not all classes brought up to them. Because juggernauts fighting in a room full of juggernauts doesn’t really sound fun)

The exaggerations also include being able to do things that a single build can’t do. You’ll hear people saying that they have AoE stuns, a bow, and great mobility, which is impossible with a Hambow build. It’s a combination of the Mace/GS build and the Hambow build, you give up something on both builds whether it be AoE or mobility. These claims were seen constantly on 2 particular threads that were on the Warrior forums front page for almost a month.

Excalibur was particularly guilty of this (wasn’t going to mention by name until they showed up here), they posted pictures of their PvP stats and it turned out they had played hardly any PvP. I may not be a PvP expert, but I at least play it frequently. I felt like I had wasted my time arguing with someone who wasn’t qualified to weigh in on the subject.

There are also plenty of posts in those threads that are using WvW experiences to justify PvP nerfs. WvW will probably always be a unbalanced mess simply due to differences in gear, food buffs, and other buffs. Not to mention numbers and coordination is the true deciding factor. Using WvW as a justification for nerfs makes no sense.

I’m going to maintain that Warriors are the only thing keeping the condition meta at bay. If they are nerfed without the condition builds being nerfed, they will go right back to being the dominate playstyle, a fact many seem to be ignoring. If ANet does tone down conditions then sure, Warriors can be toned back as well, but until then they need to stay as is.

Alright, the misinformation on both sides needs to stop.

Warrior, yes they are on the strong side of things. Also some things on the warrior are too forgiving.

So how do we adjust this to keep both sides happy? First lets remove some of the forgiving mechanics.

1) Burst skills – Always lose adrenaline on use
2) Brawn – Remake it again. Cd reduction doesn’t fit, it creates problems with threat frequency vs dodge frequency. Armor pen makes more sense, pre patch weren’t we looking for a way to help warriors deal with bunkers specifically whereas cd reduction helps other matchups as well which we don’t want.
3) Berserker’s stance – Drop duration to 5s and cd to 50s which is a 25% reduction in uptime.
4) healing signet – Reduce hps but make the active give endurance on use.
5) Cleansing Ire – Reduce adrenaline gain on hit from 3% to 2%.

So what has happened here? Active mechanics are more emphasized and power has been shifted away from skill spam with more value place on an individual skill. I think this is a good amount of ‘shaving’ or as I prefer walking up to the dart board and directly placing it in the center.

Now lets look at specific weapon sets and how they are interacted with. Ideally shifting power as opposed to changing power.

Longbow – #5 lets increase the reaction time available while slightly reducing the cd. Might as well reduce those bleed stacks while were at it. So numerically lets roughly put this into context:
- #5 cast time increased from 0.25s to 0.5
Travel velocity decreased by 20%
decrease recharge to 20s
Bleed stacks decreased to 4
- #2 Could use its cast time increased from 0.25s to 0.5s
- #1 Now lets put some power back on. Increase damage by 20%. For context axe autos have 3x higher dps.
- #4 Could use a bit extra utility, like weakness or vuln

Mace needs a similar approach, increase how readable the important skills are while moving some of that power to less appreciated skills.

Kentrey.3251:

I wouldn’t really say that.

I would.

Kentrey.3251:

It actually comes from a player (normally average) who runs into an obstacle (warriors) and then trys to take a few different ways to attack this obstacle (trying new builds and classes, fighting in different ways) and failing each time become frustrated.

Are you sure the players are normally average or are they bad? Are the average players fighting r1 player or a r70 warrior? Is the sample size high enough to draw a conclusion or did the average player gave up a the first three times before crying in the forums? Are you making this up or did you actually create a scientific experiment?

Kentrey.3251:

The reason warriors get such loud bad mouthing is because they cover such a wide spectrum of power.

Most viable build have a wide spectrum of power. It turns out that players themselves use a build that isn’t out of the other player’s spectrum of power.

Kentrey.3251:

They have one of the best (if it isn’t the best) bunker builds
Their conditions hit just as hard (if not harder with the duration on leg specialist) as some of the most powerful condi builds out there
And their FOTM build does a little bit of everything a bit too much.

It is certainly a viable bunker build, but not the best. Regen bunkers directly counters low dps build. It could turn out that the bad players are running low dps build.

Kentrey.3251:

So when you blend all this together (because you get a bit of all the complaints over the forums) you hear.

“OMG warrios have 30/30/30/30/30 builds, And stomp everywhere, 100% face roll. Nerf,nerf,nerf,nerf!!!!!”

So its not really bad players or anyones fault its just how it goes when the class has gone over the top in a few too many areas

Like the rumor of that haunted church that I heard in my childhood. It starts with a rumor of a ghost. Then the next day, there is more outlandish rumor about walking corpses in the church. Except, no one even checked what is in the church.

I love how that in the span of 4-5 months the QQ went from Necro > S/D Thieves > Spirit Rangers > Warrior and without really any significant changes. I wonder what the next one is gonna be. Can’t wait till a decent player comes up with the new fotm build and everyone can hop on the next QQ banwagon.

Barret.4095:

I love how that in the span of 4-5 months the QQ went from Necro > S/D Thieves > Spirit Rangers > Warrior and without really any significant changes. I wonder what the next one is gonna be. Can’t wait till a decent player comes up with the new fotm build and everyone can hop on the next QQ banwagon.

Necro was nerfed.
Spirit ranger was nerfed.
S/D thief was nerfed.

The next one is still gonna be warrior until it gets nerfed or another class gets significantly buffed to counter it.

Fourth.1567:

Alright, the misinformation on both sides needs to stop.

Warrior, yes they are on the strong side of things. Also some things on the warrior are too forgiving.

So how do we adjust this to keep both sides happy? First lets remove some of the forgiving mechanics.

1) Burst skills – Always lose adrenaline on use
2) Brawn – Remake it again. Cd reduction doesn’t fit, it creates problems with threat frequency vs dodge frequency. Armor pen makes more sense, pre patch weren’t we looking for a way to help warriors deal with bunkers specifically whereas cd reduction helps other matchups as well which we don’t want.
3) Berserker’s stance – Drop duration to 5s and cd to 50s which is a 25% reduction in uptime.
4) healing signet – Reduce hps but make the active give endurance on use.
5) Cleansing Ire – Reduce adrenaline gain on hit from 3% to 2%.

So what has happened here? Active mechanics are more emphasized and power has been shifted away from skill spam with more value place on an individual skill. I think this is a good amount of ‘shaving’ or as I prefer walking up to the dart board and directly placing it in the center.

Now lets look at specific weapon sets and how they are interacted with. Ideally shifting power as opposed to changing power.

Longbow – #5 lets increase the reaction time available while slightly reducing the cd. Might as well reduce those bleed stacks while were at it. So numerically lets roughly put this into context:
cast time increased from 0.25s to 0.5
Travel velocity decreased by 20%
decrease recharge to 20s
Then we need some trails to help differentiate each bow skill because my god the animations were just copy and pasted. Common seriously…. No cast bars means skills need to look different. Though really with how bad the animations are cast bars are probably the only reasonable out.

1. Could use its cast time increased from 0.25s to 0.5s
2. Now lets put some power back on. Increase damage by 20%. For context axe autos have 3x higher dps.
3. Could use a bit extra utility, like weakness or vuln

Mace needs a similar approach, increase how readable the important skills are while moving some of that power to less appreciated skills.

1) Would actually be a buff because it would probably trigger Cleansing Ire.
2) Before the Disicipline line gave a near-worthless buff, anything it would be replaced with runs a risk of greatly reducing the power of Burst skills in general.
3) This would make the skill not much better than when it was 6 seconds on a 60 second CD, which few players used because Signet of Stamina was better. What you propose would give it a mere 10% uptime, I personally would probably go back to the Signet as well.
4) Wouldn’t be of any use because adrenaline isn’t exactly hard to gain, and rebalancing adrenaline gain around 1 skill isn’t likely to happen.
5) I don’t see this making a major impact.

Also, what’s with the hate on Pin Down recently? The arrow has a very clear animation (it has a swirly effect around it that looks nothing like other arrow attacks), and reducing it’s travel time by that much will probably lead to it not landing consistently. Most of the builds with it don’t focus on condition damage but why punish those that do?

I’ll agree on Mace readability, but they better give Skull Crack a cool animation so using it can be satisfying. Although it’s mostly a problem with Asura character models, you can see the difference in animation on human sized characters.

I’ll give you props on trying to remain somewhat reasonable, but the problem is you are nerfing almost every buff Warriors have received during this last year. Warrior’s didn’t come into the meta until the healing buffs, so nerfing any of the things that were buffed previously, especially the healing, may throw them out of the meta overnight.

Excalibur.9748:

Barret.4095:

I love how that in the span of 4-5 months the QQ went from Necro > S/D Thieves > Spirit Rangers > Warrior and without really any significant changes. I wonder what the next one is gonna be. Can’t wait till a decent player comes up with the new fotm build and everyone can hop on the next QQ banwagon.

Necro was nerfed.
Spirit ranger was nerfed.
S/D thief was nerfed.

The next one is still gonna be warrior until it gets nerfed or another class gets significantly buffed to counter it.

All those nerfs were very small, all 3 of those are still viable (not 100% sure about Thief, someone enlighten me). What most people propose are wide-sweeping changes that would totally change the class. Nobody complained about Cleansing Ire, Zerker Stance, Brawn, or weapon buffs until Healing was changed. It took all those puzzle pieces come together to get Warrior where they are now, so it stands to reason that messing with too much will flip the table the puzzle is laying on.