Guild Wars 2

I think it would be very interesting and instructive if one of the top “name” players were to ask ANet to set their SoloQ ELO to a minimum, and see how long it takes them to raise that character to the top again. If they even could.

It would be something to watch.

Yep, actually if someone fails the first matches, it feels like you fight on a sinking boat. Lose approximately 15-30 places every hour without playing, win 10-25 per min and lose 40-50 per lose.
Not to mention the fact that sometimes (often ?) victory or lose is a bit independent from your wish.

But I guess it’s gonna be better in few days when it all stabilize.

That’d be an interesting experiment. Though what your asking is for a pvp god to relinquish his status and be banished to the land of mere mortals. It may be too harsh to force them to live like the peasants of the mist !!!

Still I’d make some popcorn and watch the journey. +1 !!!

EDIT: On the plus side, if this person can rise from the ashes again to reclaim his place amongst the GW2 United League of Esport Champions and Gods then his name will forever be chanted by … the whole 20 people who play pvp.

impossibrule

15!

What would be the point of this challenge though?

Jasher.6580:

What would be the point of this challenge though?

The point would be to see if a player really has a chance to regain their “natural ELO level” in this system and population, if they have bad luck at the beginning when they are teamed up with a lot of unskilled players with “temporary ratings” (for their first 12 matches). The bad players (with a fake temporary rating) sink a lot of teams while the system is discovering how good or bad they really are as it tries to find and assign them a rating.

I could attempt this on my second account, although I don’t think people would appreciate me purposefully losing my first 11 placement games.

I really don’t understand why they just won’t show the ratings. You lose all sense of progression if it’s just a rank or percentage. I’m winning but I have no clue how close I am to getting higher up on the boards since I don’t know my rating. Then these kind of experiments wouldn’t be necessary, although I admit it does sound cool to watch something like this.

Oblivion.8307:

I could attempt this on my second account, although I don’t think people would appreciate me purposefully losing my first 11 placement games.

LOL. Indeed ^^

Oblivion.8307:

I could attempt this on my second account, although I don’t think people would appreciate me purposefully losing my first 11 placement games.

Someone has to prove it. Look at it this way, they probably would have lost anyway.

Yeah…

I won my first bunch of games, and was near the top of the Leaderboard. Then I got paired with one of the most godawful engis I have ever played with, lost three matches in a row, and it’s been a slow downhill slide since then. I’ve gotten entire teams who haven’t communicated with me whatsoever, but communicated on map chat to brag about how they got to use their cow finishers on people. I’ve gotten people who have rushed into the middle of the battle to be instantly melted into nothingness. The maps aren’t great either; I know Swinsk is gonna hate me for this, but I honestly believe that thieves are at a huge disadvantage on Skyhammer, which seems to be a map that keeps popping up for me.

I’ve gotten some certainly better teams recently, and I’ve rebuilt my rank a bit so that I have a win-lose ratio that is a decent bit over 50% (it’s 53.66%), and I’m ranked 261 after over 40 matches. Which reminds me of another thing: statistically speaking, if people don’t lose, we can’t accurately tell how good they are. Numerically speaking, in fact, we would typically prefer to have a sample size of at least 30 in order to run statistical analyses, and many of the people on the front page of the Leaderboard haven’t done that many. In fact, I feel that, the higher up the Leaderboard you go, the fewer matches people have actually played overall.

I feel lucky to have my fairly good rating, but I know that there are good players who fell off a cliff by having bad ratings because they had bad teams. As for me, as more players join the Leaderboard, I’m going to have to fight to keep my rank up, as I’m sure there are going to be more people with 100% win ratios that are just going to get up the Leaderboards and stay there because of ANet’s poor rating system.

It seems that it’s the “temporary midlevel rating” that all new players start with in SoloQ. Half of them or more don’t deserve that rating but the system doesn’t know it yet.

The only way to find out how poorly they play is by assigning them to teams.

Woe be to the team that gets several of them.

Of course, they never seem to be assigned to the top MMR people…the ones at the top of the leaderboard at the moment with 90%+ ratings.

This is why you play solo que when it came out and not a month or year from now because if you start now, youll have a decent rating, if you start a month from now you wont be on the leaderboards, youll be a percentage.

I am thinking it may be better once there are not so many “temporary rated” players in SoloQ. They can really sink a team when they are assigned too high up as a “test”.

My rating is 458 at the moment. But I am afraid to play any more until things settle down. I don’t want to get the sinking stone syndrome" with weak players tied to me in loss after loss.

This doesn’t seem hard to understand, I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.

IF you are a good player stuck in the wrong bracket, your team has a good player and 4 bad players. The other team has 5 bad players. Your team is more likely to win. Your rating rises. That’s it in a nutshell.

Luck does play a larger part, as if you get a 4v5 it can snowball into 3v5, and even the best player will have a hard time with that. However, even if you only win one extra game in fifty, you will still go up in the ratings, it’s just going to take you a lot of games to climb out of the bracket with such a poor percentage.

If you’re in a bracket where people are really bad in comparison to you, you will win more than one extra game in fifty, and it won’t take you as long to climb out. Due to the increased randomness of afks and quitters, it can still take a while though. It can feel like eternity, because it’s no fun being let down by your team at every turn.

Mammoth.

Yes, that is the theory if there are many hundreds people, at all rating, levels queuing up when you are queuing up.

But we have a small population here in SoloQ. There may be 1000 people who have played 12 matches, but most of those people on that leaderboard are not logged in and doing SoloQ at any given time of day.

Worked that way for me when solo queuing on the old leaderboard. I tanked down to the low 80% range, and I climbed out no problems despite not having the ideal teammates and having to play quite a few matches against top 100 players.

The reason for that is that those losses against top 100 players when you’re at 80% don’t cost you very much rating at all.

Mammoth.1975:

This doesn’t seem hard to understand, I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.

IF you are a good player stuck in the wrong bracket, your team has a good player and 4 bad players. The other team has 5 bad players. Your team is more likely to win. Your rating rises. That’s it in a nutshell.

Luck does play a larger part, as if you get a 4v5 it can snowball into 3v5, and even the best player will have a hard time with that. However, even if you only win one extra game in fifty, you will still go up in the ratings, it’s just going to take you a lot of games to climb out of the bracket with such a poor percentage.

If you’re in a bracket where people are really bad in comparison to you, you will win more than one extra game in fifty, and it won’t take you as long to climb out. Due to the increased randomness of afks and quitters, it can still take a while though.

Unless, of course, your rank was higher than those of the rest of your team, and thus as an outlier the average skill level of your team goes up even though you’re simply an outlier, and the median skill level of your team is much lower. In which case you’d be paired up against a team that is superior to everybody on your team except for you, but you still lose because of this.

And, of course, there’s always the possibility that maybe, just maybe, playing 50 games and winning 52% of them won’t in fact improve your rating- not significantly, anyways. There’s always the possibility that Ostrich Eggs has 70.6% win ratio after playing 51 games, and yet he’s below players with a 100% win ratio after playing too few games to accurately measure their skills. There’s also the ever-so-slight chance that some players, like perhaps (at the time of writing) the one that’s ranked 31st place in NA right now, or the one that’s ranked 44th, that some players can actually have a lower win-loss ratio without having played as many games as Ostrich has, and yet they have a higher rank than he does.

Sorry, but categorical, entirely linear thinking like that isn’t gonna get us places.

Arganthium.5638:

Mammoth.1975:

This doesn’t seem hard to understand, I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.

IF you are a good player stuck in the wrong bracket, your team has a good player and 4 bad players. The other team has 5 bad players. Your team is more likely to win. Your rating rises. That’s it in a nutshell.

Luck does play a larger part, as if you get a 4v5 it can snowball into 3v5, and even the best player will have a hard time with that. However, even if you only win one extra game in fifty, you will still go up in the ratings, it’s just going to take you a lot of games to climb out of the bracket with such a poor percentage.

If you’re in a bracket where people are really bad in comparison to you, you will win more than one extra game in fifty, and it won’t take you as long to climb out. Due to the increased randomness of afks and quitters, it can still take a while though.

Unless, of course, your rank was higher than those of the rest of your team, and thus as an outlier the average skill level of your team goes up even though you’re simply an outlier, and the median skill level of your team is much lower. In which case you’d be paired up against a team that is superior to everybody on your team except for you, but you still lose because of this.

And, of course, there’s always the possibility that maybe, just maybe, playing 50 games and winning 52% of them won’t in fact improve your rating- not significantly, anyways. There’s always the possibility that Ostrich Eggs has 70.6% win ratio after playing 51 games, and yet he’s below players with a 100% win ratio after playing too few games to accurately measure their skills. There’s also the ever-so-slight chance that some players, like perhaps (at the time of writing) the one that’s ranked 31st place in NA right now, or the one that’s ranked 44th, that some players can actually have a lower win-loss ratio without having played as many games as Ostrich has, and yet they have a higher rank than he does.

Sorry, but categorical, entirely linear thinking like that isn’t gonna get us places.

Given a large enough sample, 52% will push you up. 50 games may not be enough for a significant impact, you’re correct, since that’s only one more win than the other people at your rating. It will take a few extras to push your rating high enough to stop seeing them in your groups regularly. And that makes sense, since 52% indicates that while you’re better than them, it’s not by much.

Also, being paired with a team you don’t belong in ratingwise is not the issue people are complaining about. That happens to everyone, and everyone will have to suffer the extra losses they get due to that.

I’ve had games where I was 1v2 for 2 minutes and in that time my team still couldn’t cap another point. I’ve had games where a guy just feeds kill points at far for the entire time, yelling about holding down 2, not understanding that it’s taking them less time to rotate and gib him than it is for him to respawn and run back (or that their home point guy doesn’t really count most of the time since all you have to do to keep him out of the fight on most maps is threaten a decap). I just had a game where I was holding 1v3 at gate when tranq came up and the other team still got it despite my team being told it was coming. In fact my last 4 teams have had at least 3 rank 10-19s. It happens. You’re still gonna end up with the rating you deserve, after enough games. You might be up a bit or down a bit at any given time, but you’ll get to where you belong.

I’ve had games were I was 1v2 for 2 minutes and in that time my team still couldn’t cap another point. I’ve had games where a guy just feeds kill points at far for the entire time, yelling about holding down 2, not understanding that it’s taking them less time to rotate and gib him than it is for him to respawn and run back (or that their home point guy doesn’t really count most of the time). I just had a game where I was holding 1v3 at gate when tranq came up and the other team still got it despite my team being told it was coming. In fact my last 4 teams have had at least 3 rank 10-19s. It happens. You’re still gonna end up with the rating you deserve, after enough games. You might be up a bit or down a bit at any given time, but you’ll get to where you belong.

I know the feeling. I had a game earlier where it took 3 members of the opposing team to take the skyhammer from me, and my team still couldn’t manage to hold 2 points. I literally held up two of their players for 3+ minutes then a third for another 30 seconds or so. Their team wasn’t even good, it is just that my team was THAT bad.

If you havent played solo que and waiting for it to “cool down” your in the wrong because when you start playing it, youll have nothing but newbies on your team due to not getting a rating while it went live, so you’ll be considered a newb and good luck and have fun getting a good rating when your playing with nothing but newbies.

i lost my first 3 matches and after this i won 9 games in a row and lost now another one
now im on 9 win 4 loses and ranked 700 or something last time i looked

dont think there is something like a elo hell -you have same crappy playerz in enemyteam as you have in your team – only you are the constant – only you can change something

only problem is ppl always think they are better than they are and they deserve more than what they get – human nature

Well. I for one would pray to get spirit watch and skyhammer. Those maps are very carry-friendly. Make a troll character for skyhammer and get the hammer and pretty much gg. Make an orbrunner for spirit watch and it’s also gg. Atleast in newbland it would be.

I refuse to do solo q with skyhammer in the pool
Whatever happened to build templates?

Silentshoes.1805:

I think it would be very interesting and instructive if one of the top “name” players were to ask ANet to set their SoloQ ELO to a minimum, and see how long it takes them to raise that character to the top again. If they even could.

It would be something to watch.

I won my first game on soloq by solo capping far and bunkering vs up to 4 people for pretty much the entire game. (not that build mattered – could have played dps and just destroyed everyone – ppl too bad)

Would be kittening depressing for everyone else to do that thats all. Takes a few hours max.

EDIT: @ the guy above me whose name automatically gets turned to kitten – just make a second character and switch before game starts (ALSO: why the hell is deeeeeeeerp banned? theres literally NOTHING offensive about it)

Play a few more games Rayn. You’ll begin to see how it goes most of the time.

Silentshoes.1805:

Play a few more games Rayn. You’ll begin to see how it goes most of the time.

Actually game quality gets a lot better with higher rank. Quitting and akitteng is more of a low MMR issue.

But yea i get where ure coming from… just make sure your team is a few points ahead rigfht after start so if anyone ragequits its going to be the opposing team.

Also some ragequits might be deserved. I always instaleave when anyone goes boss on forest at start and then our 1 dude in mid dies instantly.

Mammoth.1975:

This doesn’t seem hard to understand, I’m not sure why people have such difficulty with it.

IF you are a good player stuck in the wrong bracket, your team has a good player and 4 bad players. The other team has 5 bad players. Your team is more likely to win. Your rating rises. That’s it in a nutshell.

Luck does play a larger part, as if you get a 4v5 it can snowball into 3v5, and even the best player will have a hard time with that. However, even if you only win one extra game in fifty, you will still go up in the ratings, it’s just going to take you a lot of games to climb out of the bracket with such a poor percentage.

If you’re in a bracket where people are really bad in comparison to you, you will win more than one extra game in fifty, and it won’t take you as long to climb out. Due to the increased randomness of afks and quitters, it can still take a while though. It can feel like eternity, because it’s no fun being let down by your team at every turn.

It has been proven that in the Elo system that League of Legends used (and since Anet has not disclosed the details of their own, it’s safe to assume it’s pretty similar for now) that people that are merely above average (actual Elo in the 1350 to 1550 range) will have a HELL of a time if they tank their Elo down to 500 or so, and try to rise up. By hell of a time, I mean that it will be consistently hard to get actually meaningful matches (ones with no rager, intentional feeder, leaver, team bickering, etc.) won. The randomness factor is just too huge. Sure, they will rise from 500 to their true rank eventually, but it will take approximately a thousand games to do this.
People that are 1600+ will do it much faster, as they can literally carry bads almost effortlessly, and their mere presence (score, plays) is often enough to rally noobs.

I tanked my elo by playing mesmer in a solo que dominated by necro’s spirit rangers and s/d thieves; I am currently attempting to go up with s/d thief, so I will see how it goes.

Xeph.4513:

I tanked my elo by playing mesmer in a solo que dominated by necro’s spirit rangers and s/d thieves; I am currently attempting to go up with s/d thief, so I will see how it goes.

Xeph,

I will follow your progress. Rayn claims it should only take you a few days. I think that’s wrong. I think it will take a while.

Xeph.4513:

I tanked my elo by playing mesmer in a solo que dominated by necro’s spirit rangers and s/d thieves; I am currently attempting to go up with s/d thief, so I will see how it goes.

No you didn’t. In fact you were on your S/D Thief the first day of soloque. I was with you twice and against you once. We won two games together and the other game you lost by my team by double points.

But whatever makes you sleeping like a hero at night.

Authority.6145:

Xeph.4513:

I tanked my elo by playing mesmer in a solo que dominated by necro’s spirit rangers and s/d thieves; I am currently attempting to go up with s/d thief, so I will see how it goes.

No you didn’t. In fact you were on your S/D Thief the first day of soloque. I was with you twice and against you once. We won two games together and the other game you lost by my team by double points.

But whatever makes you sleeping like a hero at night.

Yes and then I tanked my rating by playing mesmer constantly trying different builds and trying to see if I can make it work; I never claimed I havn’t played any other class apart from mesmer.

I can vouch for him. I saw him playing mesmer today ^^.

Romek.4201:

i lost my first 3 matches and after this i won 9 games in a row and lost now another one
now im on 9 win 4 loses and ranked 700 or something last time i looked

dont think there is something like a elo hell -you have same crappy playerz in enemyteam as you have in your team – only you are the constant – only you can change something

only problem is ppl always think they are better than they are and they deserve more than what they get – human nature

I lost 13 matches in a row and won 1. I’m at 300-400…. Wanna know why???? Because I keep facing these kittening 1-50 leaderboard players. At least your winning more than your losing. You wont enjoy entering the game and crossing your fingers every kittening time hoping some hot shot isn’t on the enemy team along with his goons.

Like I keep telling people, the longer you wait to create your rating in the solo arena, the better chances of you being stuck with a bunch of newbs because you will start out as the rating of a newb instead of having made your rating when it was equal.

UberKK,

Your experience teaches us that at the 300 level you are “on the boundary” with the glut of people at the top who have high MMRs and need bodies from below as cannon fodder.

If they ever get around to changing the matcher so that 1-50 people actually play each other, this SoloQ thing will be better.

By the way, I notice you have been playing like 16 hours a day since Tuesday to get in as many games as you have (more than 150 20-minute games). You are one tenacious player.

Romek.4201:

i lost my first 3 matches and after this i won 9 games in a row and lost now another one
now im on 9 win 4 loses and ranked 700 or something last time i looked

dont think there is something like a elo hell -you have same crappy playerz in enemyteam as you have in your team – only you are the constant – only you can change something

only problem is ppl always think they are better than they are and they deserve more than what they get – human nature

Since you are as stubborn as me lets look at the facts

778 Romek.4201 11 4 73.33%

You were 9-4 at 700 after a streak of nine wins. You even won two more games and now you are at 778 (!) with a better ratio (!). I can bet you that you will stay there for good or move less or maximum move up 100 places.

This reminds me of all the “elo hell” threads in the league of legends forum. Essentially what happens when you put a high rated player in low rating is they stomp, and stomp pretty hard. Which actually helps perpetuate “elo hell” for those stuck in it. By dropping your rating or using an alt account to smash up through the ratings, you are damaging 5 peoples chances of rising up and helping 4.

In a nut shell, play more games. Secondly, you probably are where you belong after a sufficient number of games.

@Authority

ye maby – with the 9-4 i was yesterday 700 and rank 900 in the morning – played 2 more and won and now its this 780 something – i bet in the morning im 900 again^^

when i see 50% win ratio ppl in top 100 or some lower like 40% win/lose in rank 300-400 than something is wrong^^

but anyway will see in a month or so – until than i stop to care bout ranking and make my champion titles

Well, all I can say is that I won a game and lost a game today, making my win-lose ration 53.49% and my rank 304. I’m pretty sure I did go up a bit in the ratings though, because I know that I was about 3-4 places behind Jumper yesterday while the Leaderboard was shifting, and now I’m 5 places ahead of him.

Still, looking at the top of the Leaderboards, I see a lot of people that have a good win-loss ratio that should be representative of their skill level, but I also see a lot of people with a great ratio that have hardly played any games whatsoever.

Yeah at low # of games played the rating is meaningless. Glicko gives people who are just starting a huge rating boost for beating average teams, or a huge rating loss for losing to them, and luck plays such a large factor in those mid level games that a rating with so few games is just not representative.

The top ten NA players right now are:

1. Stuningstyles
2. Eurantien
3. Deku
4. Demise
5. Scintelle
6. Keldorz
7. Vyndetta
8. Shananigans
9. Tiberius
10. Uhiwi

Each has 50+ games played, which means they’re actually still winning when most of their matchups are against stronger than average players. 50 is still pretty inaccurate of course, but it’s significantly better than 20 on glicko. Don’t get me wrong, there are some amazing players with <50 games up there, it’s just that they need to play a few more games before their leaderboard position becomes a good indication of their ability.

I’ll be interested to see what the board looks like around Tuesday. The people who play a lot will have started to settle where they are supposed to be by then I think. Could take longer though, and it will be a fair while before the people who can’t play so much settle into their spots.

One interesting thing that is coming out of this is the fact that mesmers, eles, and thieves are underperforming, while everyone else is doing fine (although there’s not a lot of build variety among the top warriors and guardians, and pretty much all the rangers are running identical specs). It’s not representative of anything though, as a lot of it is just player perception. There are a lot of good players who have switched to ranger because they feel ranger is strongest for solo queueing (whether or not that is correct), causing ranger representation to increase while other classes decrease. This means that trying to use the leaderboard representation as evidence of relative power is a circular argument, which is unfortunate as it could have been useful.

Another thing I found interesting is that one of the players who is complaining about stacked groups is #14 rated among players with 50+ games and should probably be doing quite well against those teams.

this morning i was 850 again and palyed now another game and won

now on 12-4 75% win/lose on rank 727 – and i bet tomorow morning im on 800-900 again

so dont know how much games someone have to win in a row to gain any ranks

lost first 3 game than won 9 and lost another now won 3 games more and im still on same rank as before