Guild Wars 2

Coming from the viewpoint of an elementalist…can I pleeeeeeaaaase have the option of switching my elite skill for an extra utility slot. Since you have insisted upon giving us the most useless elite skills in the game. Thanks.

Selix.5670:

Coming from the viewpoint of an elementalist…can I pleeeeeeaaaase have the option of switching my elite skill for an extra utility slot. Since you have insisted upon giving us the most useless elite skills in the game. Thanks.

Just out of curiousity, whats useless about the Elemental?

Fire ele adds quite a bit of damage for something that stays out for 60 seconds.

Water ele provides AoE chill field, 10k+ heals to all allies, and even knocks back enemies.

Earth provides near perma cripple on target while being annoying to kill.

Air is… supbar. I’ll give you that. The ministuns aren’t that useful and the damage is laughable for the (what’s suppose to be) highest single target damage attunement. That and the 10 hp it has.

In comparison to other elites for other classes? o_O Moa, Time Warp, Thieves Guild(essentially the same skill, but way better), Rage Signet, Tome of Courage, Rampage as One, Entangling, Lich Form, and supply drop? All of those are much more powerful in both teamplay and 1v1 scenarios =/

I would rather have two cantrips and two arcane skills then 1:2 of those combinations and the elemental that has a ridiculously long cooldown and gets destroyed during any sort of team fight.

When I first started doing Spvp, I ran a necro and was like “oh, oh, lich form sooo coool, plague form sooo cool. These are awesome elites” and i get hit by a kitten bird transformation elite? that negates my elite? So you’ve created an elite skill that totally negates mine. A mesmer can wait all day in a 1v1 until i pop my plague or lich form and moa me and laugh in my stupid ugly moa face.

Of course it’s not about 1v1 in this game, but I’m still bitter.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Remember when Kalar mentioned that Moa should probably be changed? I do. I wanted to go ahead and put the reminder out there, because everyone seems to just be chomping at the bit to talk about how OP it is with elaborate examples to get us to admit that Moa should probably be changed.

Except we already did. We’re just more interesting in going out and improving instead of pigeonholing ourselves into impossible scenarios via written word and doomsday theorycrafting.

He said he would like to change it because a polymorph doesn’t fit the Mesmer’s “motif”. That’s not the same as recognizing it as imbalanced.

I think the skills you get in moa form should actually be combat viable, as so people can keep fighting (sometimes you can’t really bail) when moa’ed.

But seriously, if anything about moa needs a change, it needs to let you jump. Getting caught on fences because you can’t leap over them is quite saddening.

the most ridiculous thing about MOA is that many mesmers dont use it because….wait for it………wait for it……they have another even better elite!

seriously wtf

Agreed, the MOA is the most kitten skill in this game and is just rubbish.

Make the MOA invincible so he does not take damage. That would solve the problem. Take the guy out of combat, but don’t let them get zerged down with absolutely no possibility to defend themselves. Just ridiculous. Makes me want to throw my keyboard everytime I get MOA’d

No i read moa pre beta and thought: “that must be a pve skill, they said pvp would be balanced appart from pve this mist just be the pve tooltip.”

The i played the game and said “well thats ridiculous, but its beta so it must just be that anet hasnt done a round of balancing on pvp yet, ill bet by launch.”

…

Now i just said kitten it and i play tribes ascend and dota 2, because contrary to what was said arena net did not wait until it was ready. From the looks of the blog theyre still half a year away from ready.

Gentso.1852:

It’s insanely overpowered. The cooldown on it is irrelevant. Any small skirmish is immediately ruined when someone uses this. Lately it seems like any time I go off to catch something off the radar a mesmer will show up with moa and all anyone can do is zzzzzzz.

Supreme anti fun.

Its not overpowered, its working as intended. Its “anti” because Mesmer is an anti player class, deal with it. It was always a PvP class by design, since Gw1

Theres no defense for a 10 second cc that cant be removed.

Guys (Kalar & Oni) are you really disagreeing here? I find you both to be right; surely we want to improve (and hopefully still do), but surely so does the mesmers. Saying “dodge the Moa” is not as simple as it is often made out to be, since you can’t dodge infinitely (doh ); meanwhile the phantasms hammer away, and the skills combined to dodge are just waisted … and if the mesmer just cancels his casts …. yeah well, I would be weapon-swapping the entire time. It becomes a fight on the mesmers premises in an unavoidable way.

We can’t “win” the discussion, since it is a matter of claims that no one can really prove. Personally I find it a bit strange how much besides attacking the actual mesmer I have to do in order to kill him, and the ease by which he can pull up new moves. Be that phantasm-builds or shatter-builds.

1. A build with so much confusing and distracting abilites, as mesmers are designed, should do way less damage. Or better: it should do it’s damage way more slowly.
After all: you’re already fighting all the gimmicky things they do.

2. MOA, just like any other ‘stun’ or disable, should be able to be broken. Especially seeing the duration.
10 seconds in this game is basically the same as killing the player, or his partner.
I’m amazed there is nothing that breaks this cc.

These 2 are the main issues I see.

welcome into Hello kitty world Why not a mouse form or aligator ?:)

Moa is a stun? If i recall when i’m stunned I can’t run or use skills, other than break stun. That bird can move, peck, scream and move. Yes I wrote move twice.

Learn to dodge it, it’s not really hard, the mesmer stops moving and starts casting.

gmaster.4587:

Moa is a stun? If i recall when i’m stunned I can’t run or use skills, other than break stun. That bird can move, peck, scream and move. Yes I wrote move twice.

Learn to dodge it, it’s not really hard, the mesmer stops moving and starts casting.

What is the CC effect that allow you to move, dodge and blah blah blah and can also be cancelled? Oh, yes! It is Daze. What a funny thing that Daze can be actually removed and it is available only for a maximum of 2 seconds in every other skill.
So, if Moa is comparable to Daze which can only be archieved for 2 seconds in a single skill and can be broken, why the hell Moa lasts 10 seconds and is unbreakable?

Daze isn’t an elite only skill with 3min cd. Furthermore most skills which inflict daze are instant casts, hence the countering is preemptive, saving your skill to remove this effect. Moa has a one second cast time and is very distinct, seeing as most mesmers don’t stand still to cast for any other reason, so the countering is reactive. If you do manage to dodge this, well the mesmer is at a disadvantage, he’s wasted an elite when the slot could have been used for something better and more importantly… it lets you know which one is real.

Perhaps you should try playing a mesmer, moa isn’t that great… it’s a one trick skill. The effort it took you to type that message is probably about the same as the effort it would take you to create a mesmer go to heart of mists and cast moa on a golem, so you know what to look for. I don’t even use this skill on my mesmer, there are better ones. xD

I don’t use it in spvp either…I don’t like leaving things to chance, even bad players dodge/interrupt moa accidentally.

gmaster.4587:

Daze isn’t an elite only skill with 3min cd. Furthermore most skills which inflict daze are instant casts, hence the countering is preemptive, saving your skill to remove this effect. Moa has a one second cast time and is very distinct, seeing as most mesmers don’t stand still to cast for any other reason, so the countering is reactive. If you do manage to dodge this, well the mesmer is at a disadvantage, he’s wasted an elite when the slot could have been used for something better and more importantly… it lets you know which one is real.

Perhaps you should try playing a mesmer, moa isn’t that great… it’s a one trick skill. The effort it took you to type that message is probably about the same as the effort it would take you to create a mesmer go to heart of mists and cast moa on a golem, so you know what to look for. I don’t even use this skill on my mesmer, there are better ones. xD

Daze isn’t instant cast, I don’t know on what skill you are talking about.
Moa has one second casting time which is quite low, considering that it can be casted while in stealth. I’m playing mesmer at the moment and there are only few cases that I fail to Moa Morph my enemy because most the time I’m casting Moa while stealthed or simply the target has no interrupts to use on me.

The point it that the Moa animation isn’t that obvious, it is rather hidden, not considering that it can be casted while invisible. I feel like cheating when using Moa, seriously. Not to argue about Time Warp, that is another stupidly overpowered skill.

It can turn 5v5 into 4v5 and that shouldn’t happen in a game with no hard heals.

The moa does need work. I outright refuse to use it in 1v1’s because it’s such a lame iwin button, however I have absolutely no problem using it when I’m outnumbered. It’s a shame there are no other genuine ways to win fights (in most cases) when you’re outnumbered because of the downed system, if that was removed I’d probably not even use moa, but that’s an argument for another day

Whether it’s OP or not…losing almost all control of you character for that long with no ability to trinket IS ridiculous.

Isn’t the Mesmer class cheesy enough already???

SPESHAL.9106:

Isn’t the Mesmer class cheesy enough already???

What’s cheesy? We dont have inherently high damage or a simple, cheap class mechanic.

have any of you been polymorphed in world of warcraft?

probably not.

shalmont.2539:

have any of you been polymorphed in world of warcraft?

probably not.

I have, plenty of time.
What is your point?

It broke on damage, and you could trinket out of it.
Trinket on cooldown? Well, at least you couldn’t take damage or it broke.

I don’t see the comparison with MOA on these 2 vital points.

turn a corner, simple, stop being bad.

ive been moa’d loads of time, rarely die to it….

Luka.6831:

SPESHAL.9106:

Isn’t the Mesmer class cheesy enough already???

What’s cheesy? We dont have inherently high damage or a simple, cheap class mechanic.

Compare you defense and damage (especially in a shatter build) to a necro and come back again and post your experience.

As one guy already posted above: the class does insanely high damage considering how many cc/utility tools for survival it has and how much visual confusion they cause.

I think moa is the only thing in the game that has no counter on any class or build.

I’d just like to add that everyone defending Moa Morph is thinking way too 1vs1. The fact of the matter is, this is a team game. As far as my team goes, when we used to run Moa Morph (which we don’t anymore) that target would drop instantly. Maybe you’d be able to live/run in a 1vs1, but with 2+ people pounding and applying immbolizes/stuns you’re a sitting duck. Also it’s not like Moa Morph gives the player endurance, as in if the player is out of endurance already he can’t dodge while morphed for quite a long time.

You can’t honestly think this skill isn’t overpowered.

MOA Mesmer skill insane OP at pvp!!!

Asmodean.5820:

Luka.6831:

SPESHAL.9106:

Isn’t the Mesmer class cheesy enough already???

What’s cheesy? We dont have inherently high damage or a simple, cheap class mechanic.

Compare you defense and damage (especially in a shatter build) to a necro and come back again and post your experience.

As one guy already posted above: the class does insanely high damage considering how many cc/utility tools for survival it has and how much visual confusion they cause.

Visual confusion is the Mesmer concept. What about it?
Insanely high damage? Cant say that Id agree. We get nice damage on shatters but generally we rely heavily on traits for damage. We dont have inherently high damage. We have great utilities though, one of the best I must say.

Luka.6831:

Visual confusion is the Mesmer concept. What about it?
Insanely high damage? Cant say that Id agree. We get nice damage on shatters but generally we rely heavily on traits for damage. We don’t have inherently high damage. We have great utilities though, one of the best I must say.

Relying on traits for doing damage ? Sounds like every other classes. And yes, the Mesmer can put more damage than lots of class. The game is unbalanced atm, you can’t deny it. Just look at Necro.

i pvpd to r30 only playing mesmer.
You have much worse things to worry about than moa.
Much.
~40% of my moa’s are dodged/blocked negating my elite 100%, nerf dodge. 50% of those that are negated happen without the knowledge of the target, whether it be my misuse of the ability, or passive effects, immunity, and dodge. The other 50% are well timed counters by my target, paying attention to my cast times, cds, and outplaying me.

@PanH
There are plenty of builds for other classes that do more damage than mesmer, just look at shortbow ranger and backstab thief, 2 builds that dismantle mesmers pretty efficiently.

PanH.1957:

Relying on traits for doing damage ? Sounds like every other classes.

Yeah, as far as im aware.

PanH.1957:

And yes, the Mesmer can put more damage than lots of class.

Thats not true. If anything we’re in the average damage category.

PanH.1957:

The game is unbalanced atm, you can’t deny it. Just look at Necro.

Wait, Necro now too ? Sorry but this is starting to look like pure QQ

And dont forget that so far Mesmers got hit the hardest in updates, and not a single meaningful nerf for Thief AFAIK, a class that requires less skill to play well in sPvP.

Too be honest, if you get killed (all the time) while being moad, (1vs1), you shouldnt pvp.

Nothing says owned like pecking the mesmer to death.

Vicariuz : Shortbow ranger have been quite nerfed. And thief … as said by Luka one of the class that require the less skill and that still can do “Insta-kill” (not only on glass cannon).

@Luka : Necro are UP.

@Winterfell : what about a teamfight ? If one get moaed, that becomes a 4vs5 for 10 seconds (which is a huge amount of time).

I’ve been turned into Moa plenty of times and haven’t even died once in it, dodge and run and find some LoS if you can.

All mesmers run Time Warp anyways.

Imo moa needs slight readjust, maybe decrease the time of the effect to 8 seconds or decrease it a little bit more but then make the cooldown shorter.

Lol at people discussing about the animation of the skill. Unless you’re a savant on crack, you will probably not be able to identify the skill and dodge it in time when there are more then 2 subjects engaged in fight. Plus, as a mesmer I will mostly cast it while in stealth or after having switched places with a clone, so come on. The only thing that slightly decreases the power of this mighty elite is the fact that the designated target will often dodge it or stand behind an obstacle by pure luck while I cast it.

Concerning the moa state itself, you should just run around, try to hide somewhere and hope you have a dodge ready. If you’re in a team fight and the enemy team is well coordinated, you will probably be kittened, but that doesn’t make the skill OP in my eyes. Concerning team fights and good coordination, the fact who has which elites ready will be the gamebreaker in most cases…

Tinius.1380:

but that doesn’t make the skill OP in my eyes

How could you honestly say that?

Except for dodging it (mostly randomly, as you stated), it’s a skill that has no counter at all after you land it on your target, except fleeing away, and most of all it renders ALL the elites of another class (Necro) useless, since it breaks Plague/Lich/Golem and even the Death Shroud.

Could you mention to me another elite skill (of any class in the game) that counters perfectly all the elite skills of another class without the possibility to avoid it?

Galandil.9641:

Tinius.1380:

but that doesn’t make the skill OP in my eyes

How could you honestly say that?

Except for dodging it (mostly randomly, as you stated), it’s a skill that has no counter at all after you land it on your target, except fleeing away, and most of all it renders ALL the elites of another class (Necro) useless, since it breaks Plague/Lich/Golem and even the Death Shroud.

Could you mention to me another elite skill (of any class in the game) that counters perfectly all the elite skills of another class without the possibility to avoid it?

Not only the elites. It kills any pet a necro has out (= utility abilties) and puts them on CD. If you want to kitten a necro really off, moa him when he is in death shroud. He cannot use any abilities of DS and cannot even cancel it draining ALL the build up life energy for nothing.

Necros should have an elite in return: destroy all illusions, clones and phantasm and stop their production for 20sec. Also negate all elite ability of said class.
That’s basically the moa morph for a necro.

Galandil.9641:

Tinius.1380:

but that doesn’t make the skill OP in my eyes

How could you honestly say that?

Except for dodging it (mostly randomly, as you stated), it’s a skill that has no counter at all after you land it on your target, except fleeing away, and most of all it renders ALL the elites of another class (Necro) useless, since it breaks Plague/Lich/Golem and even the Death Shroud.

You’re probably right about necro. Honestly, I don’t play necro, so I can’t really estimate what getting moaed means to you.

Galandil.9641:

Could you mention to me another elite skill (of any class in the game) that counters perfectly all the elite skills of another class without the possibility to avoid it?

I know there is no such skill, but what I was saying is that a lot of other elite skills in the game can turn the tide in a group fight. Take Thieves Guild (crazy burst), Supply Crate (aoe stun and group heal), Tome of Courage (full heal), or Time Warp (I know, mesmer too, but that basically doesn’t contradict with my statement). Just a few examples. I know, moa is without a counter at the moment, but then again, it’s just a control effect. The skills I mentioned are all counterable but nevertheless extremely strong and they will also have the maximum impact on the fight if you are coordinating your moves with your team.

It shouldn’t be 10 seconds long, period. That’s a lifetime and a half in PvP. In tPvP, it’s practically a death sentence if it’s used on you in a 1v1 situation unless you run away off the cap to give the enemy a capture point.

I agree with the OP. MOA is a ridiculous skill. I’ve been killed more than once by very bad mesmers, you could see that they keyboard turn, backpedal, and overall react slowly in fights. I burst them down to 10-20% health, they pop the bird and i lose my remaining 80% hps before the MOA even expires. Landing a burst is the most difficult on a mesmer in my experience and when you manage to land it they just pop their iwin button and it negates all your much better reaction skill with their skillless ability. It’s true that in big fights I will usually survive MOA by running away, but in tournaments it really sucks when you get 1v1 with a bad mesmer to cap or defend a node and lose because of such a stupid skill, as if they weren’t already overpowered enough in 1v1.

Art.9367:

In tPvP, it’s practically a death sentence if it’s used on you in a 1v1 situation …

This is just not true. First Moa can be dodged, evaded, blocked, which happened to me many times. Moa also sometimes fails to cast due to LoS. The only time when its truly a “death sentence” is when you;re mobbing

shaolin.9716:

I agree with the OP. MOA is a ridiculous skill. I’ve been killed more than once by very bad mesmers, you could see that they keyboard turn, backpedal, and overall react slowly in fights. I burst them down to 10-20% health, they pop the bird and i lose my remaining 80% hps before the MOA even expires. Landing a burst is the most difficult on a mesmer in my experience and when you manage to land it they just pop their iwin button and it negates all your much better reaction skill with their skillless ability. It’s true that in big fights I will usually survive MOA by running away, but in tournaments it really sucks when you get 1v1 with a bad mesmer to cap or defend a node and lose because of such a stupid skill, as if they weren’t already overpowered enough in 1v1.

Sorry but your post is just very anti-mesmer oriented without much sense. Moa is not an I-win button. Moa is not easy to use and can be nullified in several ways. You are also wrong in thinking Mesmers are easy to play. You need to be constantly making Illusions and shattering, using four different effects – damage, Confusion, interrupt, block. We have some of the best utilities though, but thats it.

Luka.6831:

Sorry but your post is just very anti-mesmer oriented without much sense. Moa is not an I-win button. Moa is not easy to use and can be nullified in several ways. You are also wrong in thinking Mesmers are easy to play. You need to be constantly making Illusions and shattering, using four different effects – damage, Confusion, interrupt, block. We have some of the best utilities though, but thats it.

It’s quite generally accepted that a skilled mesmer will win 1v1 against another profession of equal skill, so it very much does make sense. I’m quite curious how it can be nullified since it also seems generally accepted in this thread that MOA takes you out for 10 seconds without anyway to nullify it except maybe a hell of a lucky dodge. In 1v1 I get MOAed, rooted, then taken out without any way for me to prove that I can hit my defensive buttons to survive through my opponent’s burst abilities. This is unfair. As a HB warrior, my opponents have plenty of ways to not let me HB them, so it should be the same for mesmers. People may say that warrior HB is easy but it’s not quite so. You have to fish for your opponent’s defensive abilities before you TRY to land a HB, while a mesmer doesn’t even need to do that if they use MOA, they are in full control of exactly when they decide to kitten you. Maybe it would be ok if mesmers were not already doing ridiculous damage considering their high escape and survivability.

In my opinion, it is a ridiculous skill. It needs one easy simple update to fix the entire issue though. It’s just like Fear in the very original World of Warcraft. Put a damage break on it. When a player takes say, 35% of his health in damage while in Moa bird transformation, the skill breaks. Easy enough and then you can’t kill someone before they even have a chance to fight back.