Guild Wars 2

Jax.5261:

Actually no you just take note of the clone created, which is really simple, and you won’t get hit by swap. You dodge the leap and avoid the clone, easy enough for you to get now?
Also all AI in this game is kitten and can’t keep up with you perfectly. So no I’ve never had trouble avoiding it not to mention they’re really easy to kill.

I don’t know if you realize how absurd are the suggestions you are giving.
What if you dodge the leap? It doesn’t matters at all. The clone is still there, trying to stay in melee range, ready to being swapped.
The AI in this game is bad, you’re right, but not that much about clones and phantasms. All they do is bashing their target ‘till death and it is something they are extremely good at. It’s not like that the clone, once spawned, stay there in place staring at the fight like minions do, it only swings his sword on the target applying cripple over time, which makes harder to get away from.

If you add the fact that the I-Leap clone is just like the other clones AND the Mesmer itself, it makes the burst way too hard to avoid considering the amount of damage it is capable to do.

Also, I’d like that you address also the other things I’ve wrote in my last post, without you keep giving unwanted suggestions. How many times do I have to say that nobody wants your fake-guru-like tips? I and (I think) almost everyone here don’t care that much on how it is easy to you to avoid those spikes that takes place in a fraction of seconds, you know, not everyone has super powers, lightning reflexes and super-fast internet connection. So, is that hard to you to focus on balance? The real question is: is it fair that a burst that takes place in less than a second is capable to wipe away half a life bar and even more, considering the fact that is isn’t that easy (not for you, of course) to avoid?

It’s not that they’re hard to beat, it’s that unless you’re a thief or mesmer yourself they limit you to tank builds (and in the case of mesmers even then they’re hard to beat).

The big issue I have with shatter is that the cool down starts when you press F1 regardless of when the shatter will actually go off (due to how smart the kitten clones are, you can’t even dodge away reliably, but you have to dodge into them, whether it puts you into a favorable position or not when doing so, because if you dodge away, they will just go off as soon as you have ended your dodge roll).

Secondly, due to the fact that the cooldown starts upon pressing F1, if you delay the shatter by running away, the next shatter will be coming 4-5 seconds after the first one, which is basically a lot of damage within a really small time window.

For an ability that deals that kind of damage, it’s way too easy to land, especially given the low cool down.

Sol Haer.5187:

Play a warrior and tell me how much a ‘non-problem’ these classes are, granted thieves are much easier to deal with, game balance is pretty lop sided. Too many power escape mechanics coupled with extreme damage.

Well said. These professions can basically faceroll you to death.

I don’t find fighting a mesmer that hard, at least u can see what you’re fighting including clones. Shatter, it’s not that hard to counter. Decoy (3 sec) is nothing compared to stealth on a theif and obviously, you can not attack while in Decoy. I find mesmer challenging and fun, it’s like finding “where is waldo”
Any class can beat them Including myself a ranger/engineer but with theif?

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

Actually no you just take note of the clone created, which is really simple, and you won’t get hit by swap. You dodge the leap and avoid the clone, easy enough for you to get now?
Also all AI in this game is kitten and can’t keep up with you perfectly. So no I’ve never had trouble avoiding it not to mention they’re really easy to kill.

I don’t know if you realize how absurd are the suggestions you are giving.
What if you dodge the leap? It doesn’t matters at all. The clone is still there, trying to stay in melee range, ready to being swapped.
The AI in this game is bad, you’re right, but not that much about clones and phantasms. All they do is bashing their target ‘till death and it is something they are extremely good at. It’s not like that the clone, once spawned, stay there in place staring at the fight like minions do, it only swings his sword on the target applying cripple over time, which makes harder to get away from.

If you add the fact that the I-Leap clone is just like the other clones AND the Mesmer itself, it makes the burst way too hard to avoid considering the amount of damage it is capable to do.

Also, I’d like that you address also the other things I’ve wrote in my last post, without you keep giving unwanted suggestions. How many times do I have to say that nobody wants your fake-guru-like tips? I and (I think) almost everyone here don’t care that much on how it is easy to you to avoid those spikes that takes place in a fraction of seconds, you know, not everyone has super powers, lightning reflexes and super-fast internet connection. So, is that hard to you to focus on balance? The real question is: is it fair that a burst that takes place in less than a second is capable to wipe away half a life bar and even more, considering the fact that is isn’t that easy (not for you, of course) to avoid?

You are 100% part of the problem, go practice before responding. None of it is hard to dodge you’re saying the same thing over and over. Even if you don’t like it you CLEARLY need to learn. Anybody can easily avoid it and when you do they have to wait for damage again. If you dodge a Mesmers burst you wont take damage.

tic.7425:

I’ve actually semi-retired my mesmer. For the most part its not really challenging at all.

The hardest class for me is a necro, because of my (really) limited condition removal. Other than that, a lot of it is just (too) easy, not all mind you, but a lot of it.. I’m no elite PvPer by any stretch, but mesmers sure do make it pretty easy. A lot of times, when i see a 2 on 1, i feel like im going to get a really good challenge.

Been playing MMOs for a long time, the only thing to me more discouraging than playing an "underpowered " class, is playing the fotm “overpowered” one. Hard to believe, but when you see certain classes representation dominating the PvP landscape, there maybe a reason why..

/shrug

Are you serious? Lol.

Get on a mesmer and I will beat you with any profession.

Beating Rank 15 with 0 QP aint a challenge bro.

I play a mesmer in sPvP (almost exclusively). Playing as a mesmer is very easy — it’s not hard (the skill floor is honestly pretty low). However the class mechanic (clones) is difficult for others to play against. Similarly with thieves: stealth is hard to play against.

So while I feel that mesmers and thieves are balanced (wrt DPS, survivability, etc), they are difficult to fight. Anybody who says otherwise is lying. No other professions are as challenging to fight due purely to class mechanic — pick one and try to argue your case (it’ll sound non-sensical in the end).

When I play a mesmer, I rarely lose 1v1 — seriously. I roll with two different builds (shatter and bunker). As a shatter my big problems are fighting any bunker or any thief. As a bunker my big problems are rangers and other bunker mesmers (sry thieves are easy as a bunker mesmer).

Anyway, while I think mesmers/thieves are balance, their class mechanic is inherently difficult to play against — more so than any other profession (hands down). My advice: use Ctrl-T against those memsers (it’s what I do).

I wonder what the percentage of people who think mesmers/thiefs are so OP being hotjoin players is. Im guessing high.

Lets wonder how many ppl lie that they dont play thieves , but suprizingly they respond only on those threads :P

Jax.5261:

You are 100% part of the problem, go practice before responding. None of it is hard to dodge you’re saying the same thing over and over. Even if you don’t like it you CLEARLY need to learn. Anybody can easily avoid it and when you do they have to wait for damage again. If you dodge a Mesmers burst you wont take damage.

There is really nothing to say here, I can’t have a mature argument with you without getting at the same spot you want to lead the topic.

According to your logic, an one-hit-kill skill with half a second casting time is fine because you can dodge it and everyone who complain about that skill should learn to play. I hope you realize how absurd is your reasoning.
Thank god you aren’t a game designer.

sorrow.2364:

you know, not everyone has super powers, lightning reflexes and super-fast internet connection.

Please for the love of god spend some more time coming up with an argument than you are right now.

Have you ever played any competitive online game in the history of ever? Have you ever considered that maybe player reflexes are just as key to success as any mechanic within the game? Or have you thought that maybe you should actually invest in better networking hardware before deciding to play a competitive online game with 200 ping?

Based on what you have stated, Hearts is probably an online PvP game that is balanced enough for you.

Saital.4819:

Please for the love of god spend some more time coming up with an argument than you are right now.

Have you ever played any competitive online game in the history of ever? Have you ever considered that maybe player reflexes are just as key to success as any mechanic within the game? Or have you thought that maybe you should actually invest in better networking hardware before deciding to play a competitive online game with 200 ping?

Based on what you have stated, Hearts is probably an online PvP game that is balanced enough for you.

Yes, because every MMO has a profession which is capable to wipe his enemies out in less than a second if they aren’t fast enough to use the right skill at the right time (which probably the casting time make that skill useless anyway). But, most importantly, all the professions have access to that half-second-kill combo.

You play too many FPS, in the case you haven’t noticed it yet, this isn’t Call of Duty.

Also, good job into taking a sentence out of the entire context and completely misled the point I tried to make.
Do you guys really want to keep arguing in this manner?

daydream.2938:

I wonder what the percentage of people who think mesmers/thiefs are so OP being hotjoin players is. Im guessing high.

OP =/= not fun to face. I think we need to clarify this one.
I really don’t have issues with those classes normally, but that doesn’t prevent me from thinking that infinite restealthing is cheesy; same goes for the high dmg on Steal/Mug+CnD+BS … and really: That combo isn’t hard to execute, as you very well know
I think those aspects make thieves less fun to face in 1vs1 or 2vs2 … or even 1vs2 (aka a 1vs1 turned into a 2vs0 in a split-second when the thief turns up).
I think we have been down this alley before, if I am not mistaken.

Mesmers … I have no issues with apart from TW and perhaps portal in some cases. I usually find mesmers rather fun to face. I DO however think that phatasm-based mesmers are a bit … odd. I am not sure if I find that way to play particular interesting, and it feels degrading, if you used to play a mesmer in gw1.

Both of these look rather pale, when I compare to ele’s though …. yeah …. still. They are frustrating to face, their survival is really good … and the best part are the group-buffs.

So yeah … lets move on, shall we?

sorrow.2364:

Yes, because every MMO has a profession which is capable to wipe his enemies out in less than a second if they aren’t fast enough to use the right skill at the right time (which probably the casting time make that skill useless anyway). But, most importantly, all the professions have access to that half-second-kill combo.

If we’re referring to CnD+Mug+BS combo, the key moment is between the mug and the backstab. During which you can dodge or block. If you are basi venomed then simply throw a stunbreaker in there. Even easier if your stunbreaker is also an evade (e.g. Lightning Reflexes). True, if the thief has Haste then your window of time is greatly reduced if not completely eliminated, but this is a problem with quickness in general and not with the thief.

sorrow.2364:

You play too many FPS, in the case you haven’t noticed it yet, this isn’t Call of Duty.

I’ll do you the favor of ignoring the fact that you just likened CoD to a competitive FPS title.

sorrow.2364:

Also, good job into taking a sentence out of the entire context and completely misled the point I tried to make.
Do you guys really want to keep arguing in this manner?

Point? You had no point. The rest of the post that I had omitted was bupkis, consisting of citing anecdotal “evidence” of an extremely telegraphed mesmer shatter combo, and ad hominem attacks against the guy you quoted.

Saital.4819:

If we’re referring to CnD+Mug+BS combo, the key moment is between the mug and the backstab. During which you can dodge or block. If you are basi venomed then simply throw a stunbreaker in there. Even easier if your stunbreaker is also an evade (e.g. Lightning Reflexes). True, if the thief has Haste then your window of time is greatly reduced if not completely eliminated, but this is a problem with quickness in general and not with the thief.

Not any profession have access to evades, neither invulnerabilities. Not every Thief run Basilisk Venom. Devourer Venom isn’t an elite and it way more effective (no dodges, no evades, not stunbreakable).

We aren’t referring to a specific build, burst is a problem and looks like the topic moved in that direction, but those profession are filled with stupid mechanics that make them so powerful and I’ve addressed them in my previous posts and also other people did.

Quickness in one of the hundreds of problem this game has, if you want to talk about that, then we should move to another topic, but, of course, it isn’t quickness the problem itself. If Necromancer had quickness, it would be worthless.

But, anyway, this is still linked to the broken logic that dodges and evades are the answers of all the flaws this game has. They aren’t.

Saital.4819:

I’ll do you the favor of ignoring the fact that you just likened CoD to a competitive FPS title.

I don’t like CoD too, but if they make international tourneys of CoD, it means that there a little bit of competition, apart of everyone’s opinion.

But, hey, this is another example of how you hook to a worthless sentence to avoid the real concept behind.

Saital.4819:

Point? You had no point. The rest of the post that I had omitted was bupkis, consisting of citing anecdotal “evidence” of an extremely telegraphed mesmer shatter combo, and ad hominem attacks against the guy you quoted.

You did not read anything, or you have serious problems of understanding.
That guy was avoiding the point of my argument since 2-3 posts, whose posts you probably didn’t bother to check, while keep saying “learn to play” like a parrot.
The post you quoted was just the peak of the iceberg of the whole discussion.

You can also see a reference to my other posts also:

Also, I’d like that you address also the other things I’ve wrote in my last post, without you keep giving unwanted suggestions.

This implies that you SHOULD read my other posts before saying I have no point.

I am really tired of these, “Here’s a strategy to beat Mesmers/Thieves – therefore they are not OP!”

Does it occur to these posters that those are the only two classes that are so difficult to counter? And that they’re -all- difficult to counter, not just you Mr. Elite Ninja? You’re not a special snowflake, thieves and mesmers kick the crap out of SPvP all day.

How do you counter the other classes in the game? You have a lot of options! Like you should. They’re straight forward, fun fights. Doesn’t mean you can ignore counter play. You still have to dodge, control, buff, and debuff appropriately, and misplays will still get you killed.

The point is to fight those TWO classes only, players have to play at a higher level than is required to fight the other classes, even if the thief/mesmer are of equal skill to them.

Plus, who hasn’t walked into a massive crowd of enemies only to realize 2/3rds of them are Mesmer clones (or more) and just thought, “Wow…this is kind of stupid.”

Jackalrat.5493:

I am really tired of these, “Here’s a strategy to beat Mesmers/Thieves – therefore they are not OP!”

Does it occur to these posters that those are the only two classes that are so difficult to counter? And that they’re -all- difficult to counter, not just you Mr. Elite Ninja? You’re not a special snowflake, thieves and mesmers kick the crap out of SPvP all day.

How do you counter the other classes in the game? You have a lot of options! Like you should. They’re straight forward, fun fights. Doesn’t mean you can ignore counter play. You still have to dodge, control, buff, and debuff appropriately, and misplays will still get you killed.

The point is to fight those TWO classes only, players have to play at a higher level than is required to fight the other classes, even if the thief/mesmer are of equal skill to them.

Plus, who hasn’t walked into a massive crowd of enemies only to realize 2/3rds of them are Mesmer clones (or more) and just thought, “Wow…this is kind of stupid.”

They arent difficult to counter, thats the piont. They are difficult for NEW players to counter.

daydream.2938:

Jackalrat.5493:

I am really tired of these, “Here’s a strategy to beat Mesmers/Thieves – therefore they are not OP!”

Does it occur to these posters that those are the only two classes that are so difficult to counter? And that they’re -all- difficult to counter, not just you Mr. Elite Ninja? You’re not a special snowflake, thieves and mesmers kick the crap out of SPvP all day.

How do you counter the other classes in the game? You have a lot of options! Like you should. They’re straight forward, fun fights. Doesn’t mean you can ignore counter play. You still have to dodge, control, buff, and debuff appropriately, and misplays will still get you killed.

The point is to fight those TWO classes only, players have to play at a higher level than is required to fight the other classes, even if the thief/mesmer are of equal skill to them.

Plus, who hasn’t walked into a massive crowd of enemies only to realize 2/3rds of them are Mesmer clones (or more) and just thought, “Wow…this is kind of stupid.”

They arent difficult to counter, thats the piont. They are difficult for NEW players to counter.

Actually I find engis quite tough to counter. Momma said fighting an engi is like a box of chocolates… You never know what ya gonna get… And I find that’s true… I think they are even less predictable than any ele could be… Mesmers are very predictable as are thieves but just because they are predictable doesn’t mean that they are “easy to counter.” But knowing a little bit about how they work makes them alot easier… A good thing to do is go to low pop servers and just ask in map chat “are people dueling?” If they are then join in a lot of times a mes/thief will be there. As well as warriors guardians or engi’s. Its just fun to do and a good way to get better… hot join full matches aren’t gonna help your skill because if any class gets you to somewhat low health the thief is gonna come in and HS HS HS HS you to death and that is just how it happens… That’s why hot joins are there…

Edit: And the amount of trash talking that goes on in hot join is quite ridiculous… If a thief pops in and back stabs you while you are busy with something else they usually say “HAHAHA you suck GTFO noob.” Which another reason why I suggest the dueling in low pop servers. It’s sad but such is the state of this game atm.

Thief is easy to slay. They are in a bad spot atm. The only annoying thing is that if they below 20% they just stealth and go fight somewhere else or come back 5 sec later with full health. I have killed several thieves who used stealth by spamming grenades but still. Same goes for mesmer. Below 20% health, lets decoy+blink or use portal.

The only class i have real problems with are rangers. But that is probably just a counter to my build. We all have counters.

jportell.2197:

Actually I find engis quite tough to counter. Momma said fighting an engi is like a box of chocolates… You never know what ya gonna get… And I find that’s true… I think they are even less predictable than any ele could be… Mesmers are very predictable as are thieves but just because they are predictable doesn’t mean that they are “easy to counter.” But knowing a little bit about how they work makes them alot easier… A good thing to do is go to low pop servers and just ask in map chat “are people dueling?” If they are then join in a lot of times a mes/thief will be there. As well as warriors guardians or engi’s. Its just fun to do and a good way to get better… hot join full matches aren’t gonna help your skill because if any class gets you to somewhat low health the thief is gonna come in and HS HS HS HS you to death and that is just how it happens… That’s why hot joins are there…

Edit: And the amount of trash talking that goes on in hot join is quite ridiculous… If a thief pops in and back stabs you while you are busy with something else they usually say “HAHAHA you suck GTFO noob.” Which another reason why I suggest the dueling in low pop servers. It’s sad but such is the state of this game atm.

I suppose it is here, that I say, that I find engies very predictable too, but that is perhaps because I play one. If you play one, you learn fast, what the viable builds are, and hence what to expect. We heard that before regarding another class, didn’t we

Jax.5261:

It depends on what you find fun, I find winning and defeating my enemy fun. While they’re cloaked they don’t capture the cap point which means I’m pulling ahead.

Capping points is not fun. Player vs circle, is not fun.
Killing people and player vs PLAYER is fun.

Once you can easily deal with them I’m pretty sure you’ll have more fun.

Nope. Can handle most any mesmer 1v1. They have not become any more fun at all. In fact they are at this point not only anti-fun, but tedious, repetitive and an obnoxious waste of time without any payoff. Win, lose or draw.

There’s so much you can do to beat these classes and make it fun, so honestly that argument doesn’t work either.

Wrong. Sorry, but fun is subjective. Has nothing to do with performance at all. I can staple my own eyelids closed really well, pro level even, that does not make it fun. Thief/Mesmer mechanics are pretty similar to that. Only more obnoxious. Nothing on god’s green earth has made them anything but anti-fun or tedious, and I doubt anything ever will.

(cute how you run a mesmer though and preach about them in such a positive and praising light)

Poxxia.1547:

jportell.2197:

Actually I find engis quite tough to counter. Momma said fighting an engi is like a box of chocolates… You never know what ya gonna get… And I find that’s true… I think they are even less predictable than any ele could be… Mesmers are very predictable as are thieves but just because they are predictable doesn’t mean that they are “easy to counter.” But knowing a little bit about how they work makes them alot easier… A good thing to do is go to low pop servers and just ask in map chat “are people dueling?” If they are then join in a lot of times a mes/thief will be there. As well as warriors guardians or engi’s. Its just fun to do and a good way to get better… hot join full matches aren’t gonna help your skill because if any class gets you to somewhat low health the thief is gonna come in and HS HS HS HS you to death and that is just how it happens… That’s why hot joins are there…

Edit: And the amount of trash talking that goes on in hot join is quite ridiculous… If a thief pops in and back stabs you while you are busy with something else they usually say “HAHAHA you suck GTFO noob.” Which another reason why I suggest the dueling in low pop servers. It’s sad but such is the state of this game atm.

I suppose it is here, that I say, that I find engies very predictable too, but that is perhaps because I play one. If you play one, you learn fast, what the viable builds are, and hence what to expect. We heard that before regarding another class, didn’t we

yes we have… But if you notice I am not saying they are a problem that needs nerfed nerfed nerfed or anything like that… I just know that I personally have a tough time with them…

Braxxus.2904:

Jax.5261:

It depends on what you find fun, I find winning and defeating my enemy fun. While they’re cloaked they don’t capture the cap point which means I’m pulling ahead.

Capping points is not fun. Player vs circle, is not fun.
Killing people and player vs PLAYER is fun.

Once you can easily deal with them I’m pretty sure you’ll have more fun.

Nope. Can handle most any mesmer 1v1. They have not become any more fun at all. In fact they are at this point not only anti-fun, but tedious, repetitive and an obnoxious waste of time without any payoff. Win, lose or draw.

There’s so much you can do to beat these classes and make it fun, so honestly that argument doesn’t work either.

Wrong. Sorry, but fun is subjective. Has nothing to do with performance at all. I can staple my own eyelids closed really well, pro level even, that does not make it fun. Thief/Mesmer mechanics are pretty similar to that. Only more obnoxious. Nothing on god’s green earth has made them anything but anti-fun or tedious, and I doubt anything ever will.

(cute how you run a mesmer though and preach about them in such a positive and praising light)

Well I find it fun to completely negate their damage and beat them, only really good ones I have a decent length fight with. And I play Guardian mostly (90% of my games) (95% of tournament games) while I play ranger, mesmer, war, necro when I get bored of playing Guard too much.

new players have extreme difficulty facing these profession mechanics ( stealth, clones ), but neither is OP.

the problem is complex, b/c the profession population plays into how both hotjoin & glory work.

right now, the only progression that exists is rank grind. the most effective place to grind rank is hotjoin, because:

a) 8v8, more targets, more kills per minute
b) new players / no team cohesion
c) larger team size leads to faster point rotations ( a solo defender must give up the node to a zerg or be crushed )

glass spec will always be the fastest farming spec in any gametype that values farming. ( tourneys don’t value farming )

now, take the 2 glass specs that have the most inherent survivability against new players & poor teamwork. these inexperienced players “feed” glory to mesmers & thieves, which themselves are low skill floor specs, so new players can use these professions to see immediate results.

but the perception of these results is not accurate to actual game balance. the thing is, both mesmer & thief also have a high skill ceiling, which becomes more apparent in the tourney meta. other professions can easily deal with these glass specs in a competitive environment, or at the very least, neutralize the advantages they hold over less experienced players.

the final kicker is that experienced players understand this, & often will use either a mesmer or a thief for grinding glory even if it isn’t their primary spec, just b/c you can farm new players faster & more efficiently this way. it’s an impossible grind to actually increase in rank past a certain point, so some will use any advantage to close the gap.

they could make these 2 specs harder to play in some way without diminishing their overall effectiveness. best example was given a long time ago, by making Heartseeker function the same as Dagger 3 ( Fire ) on Ele.

need new reward system, custom servers, etc. the stat feedback from UI we get as players atm does not give us any accurate information about balance, effectiveness or where the player stands in relation to any other player. it’s just farming.

Good explanation here. Basically in one sentence: Either remove hotjoin or make it not that rewarding or increase rewards in tournaments to make it more profitable than hotjoin. Then mabye rank would say a bit more about skill then how it is nowadays.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/93a9ee242986168 Deathlog…

nuff said ?
normally i beat those thieves by having balanced stance on CD, breaking their venom right when they apply it, and thanks to auto target – as long as no other player is close – i can target and try to beat em right away.
sadly this doesnt seem to work anymore since a few days for me… dunno if its my lagg… reappearance of slight stealth culling in spvp or… dunno, just doesnt work anymore for me.

this has nothing to do with any form of good balancing nor anything that qualifies a game for e-sports * cough *

Jax.5261:

Got bored of replying to somebody who can’t understand simple things.

Funny. It is the same thing I thought after your third l2p answer to my reasoning. But, despite you, I wasn’t worried to lose my argument to the point I thought that escaping was the only solution.

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

Got bored of replying to somebody who can’t understand simple things.

Funny. It is the same thing I thought after your third l2p answer to my reasoning. But, despite you, I wasn’t worried to lose my argument to the point I thought that escaping was the only solution.

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

I play a thief, and a ranger…

If you think thief is hard to play, or that its remotely challenging, you’re kidding yourself.

If you think its a L2 kitten ue for other classes, You’re kidding yourself……

The Class is overpowered because of Stealth, It’s the Combustion mechanic of this game designed for scrubby players….

^Agreeing with Xsorus, and it really is a simple thing. We can list hardcounters to everything else in the game really.

Conditions -> condition removal, removal balanced with cooldowns
Boons -> boon removal, removal balanced with cooldowns
Damage -> dodge/mitigation, balanced with cooldowns
Healing -> poison, balanced with condition removal
Stealth -> …

Nothing hard counters stealth. Stealth is invisibility, which guarantees damage, because damage is hard countered by dodging/mitigation, and you can’t do this on reaction against an invisible opponent… so it offsets the balance of a few of the other mechanics.

Unless you can somehow see and react to an invisible opponent. In which case I believe your talents are being wasted on videogames.

Stealth should be toned down a little by making people destealth if they are hit while in stealth, or if they attack and hit nothing while in stealth. That way it doesn’t affect the gameplay of the UBER LEET OMG BACKSTAB BACKSTAB BACKSTAB HEARTSEEKER HEARTSEEKER HEARTSEEKER thieves who are obviously better at the game than the rest of us. It just makes them play with a bit more strategic thinking and lets them “prove their skill” a bit more than mindless zerg jumping and stealth spamming with 1 hit instagibs with no drawback other than they might eventually run low on initiative or somebody gets lucky and a random attack hits the invisible thief before they die.

Jax.5261:

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

In the case you missed what I wrote, I’ll write it again to you.
DODGING ISN’T THE ANSWER TO EVERY FLAW
The fact that you can dodge bursts, does not justify in any form that two professions are capable to deal such an high amount of damage in a that small window of time while other professions aren’t, which makes way more sense when you consider that every profession is designed to be capable to deal burst, sustained and conditional damage.
It doesn’t justify also that those profession have such an high amount of innate defensive capabilities coming from visual confusion, that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

According to your logic, an instant-kill skill is balanced just because you can dodge it, which is stupid, senseless and out of every form of balance.

Got it?

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE BURST, LEARN TO DODGE.
If you don’t know how to dodge properly you deserve to have a hard time. If there was no dodging in this game it would be completely different, but there is, so it isn’t.

In the case you missed what I wrote, I’ll write it again to you.
DODGING ISN’T THE ANSWER TO EVERY FLAW
The fact that you can dodge bursts, does not justify in any form that two professions are capable to deal such an high amount of damage in a that small window of time while other professions aren’t, which makes way more sense when you consider that every profession is designed to be capable to deal burst, sustained and conditional damage.
It doesn’t justify also that those profession have such an high amount of innate defensive capabilities coming from visual confusion, that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

According to your logic, an instant-kill skill is balanced just because you can dodge it, which is stupid, senseless and out of every form of balance.

Got it?

Dodging (and learning to play) is the answer to this ‘problem’
Warriors do more damage, therefore they’re OP by your logic.
They have more defensive abilities due to having lower armour.
Mesmers only have visual confusion if you’re new to the game and stealth is easy to predict and ends up weaker in tpvp when used in a large amount.
If everything were to stand still and afk, yes everybody would have a 1-shot kill build, fortunately they don’t and due to playing full burst once you dodge the burst (USING NONE OF YOUR SKILLS BECAUSE DODGE ISN’T A SKILL) you can use your skill against them without worrying too much about what they can do.

Jax.5261:

Dodging (and learning to play) is the answer to this ‘problem’
Warriors do more damage, therefore they’re OP by your logic.
They have more defensive abilities due to having lower armour.
Mesmers only have visual confusion if you’re new to the game and stealth is easy to predict and ends up weaker in tpvp when used in a large amount.
If everything were to stand still and afk, yes everybody would have a 1-shot kill build, fortunately they don’t and due to playing full burst once you dodge the burst (USING NONE OF YOUR SKILLS BECAUSE DODGE ISN’T A SKILL) you can use your skill against them without worrying too much about what they can do.

There is something you missed in my previous post. Looks like that making the text bold isn’t enough to get your attention.

not justify in any form that two professions are capable to deal such an high amount of damage in a that small window of time

Looking closely:

IN A THAT SMALL WINDOW OF TIME

So no, Warrior does not OP according to my logic.

You again missed what I wrote. I know, English isn’t my main language, but I don’t think I wrote that bad to make my post incomprehensible.

It doesn’t justify also that those profession have such an high amount of innate defensive capabilities coming from visual confusion, that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

Looking closely:

that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

THIS is the point. I’ve never said that they have other form of defenses (like visual confusion isn’t enough), but the point is THIS, which you accurately ignored.

And, again, you fell into the “dodge is the answer” argument. I don’t really care how fragile those professions are in your opinion, neither the fact that dodge isn’t a skill. I don’t want also to point out the imprecision of what you wrote (Do you really think that after the burst happens the attacker will be standing still? What is stealth for so?), fact remains that those professions can’t be that punishing for a distraction of a fraction of a second, expecially when you consider the situation of other professions.

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

Dodging (and learning to play) is the answer to this ‘problem’
Warriors do more damage, therefore they’re OP by your logic.
They have more defensive abilities due to having lower armour.
Mesmers only have visual confusion if you’re new to the game and stealth is easy to predict and ends up weaker in tpvp when used in a large amount.
If everything were to stand still and afk, yes everybody would have a 1-shot kill build, fortunately they don’t and due to playing full burst once you dodge the burst (USING NONE OF YOUR SKILLS BECAUSE DODGE ISN’T A SKILL) you can use your skill against them without worrying too much about what they can do.

There is something you missed in my previous post. Looks like that making the text bold isn’t enough to get your attention.

not justify in any form that two professions are capable to deal such an high amount of damage in a that small window of time

Looking closely:

IN A THAT SMALL WINDOW OF TIME

So no, Warrior does not OP according to my logic.

You again missed what I wrote. I know, English isn’t my main language, but I don’t think I wrote that bad to make my post incomprehensible.

It doesn’t justify also that those profession have such an high amount of innate defensive capabilities coming from visual confusion, that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

Looking closely:

that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

THIS is the point. I’ve never said that they have other form of defenses (like visual confusion isn’t enough), but the point is THIS, which you accurately ignored.

And, again, you fell into the “dodge is the answer” argument. I don’t really care how fragile those professions are in your opinion, neither the fact that dodge isn’t a skill. I don’t want also to point out the imprecision of what you wrote (Do you really think that after the burst happens the attacker will be standing still? What is stealth for so?), fact remains that those professions can’t be that punishing for a distraction of a fraction of a second, expecially when you consider the situation of other professions.

You may actually want to try playing these classes. Because your argument is very uninformed.

Jax.5261:

You may actually want to try playing these classes. Because your argument is very uninformed.

I did and I’m still doing it. I moved my main from Necromancer to Thief. I think you should too.

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

You may actually want to try playing these classes. Because your argument is very uninformed.

I did and I’m still doing it. I moved my main from Necromancer to Thief. I think you should too.

Why would I play thief? They’re not very good, only really good players like Caed even do decently with them, but that’s because they’re good players not because the class is overpowered.

Jax.5261:

Why would I play thief? They’re not very good, only really good players like Caed even do decently with them, but that’s because they’re good players not because the class is overpowered.

Man, you live out of this world or you are playing a completely different game or Guardian is a that stupid and easy to play class at the point that it makes a Thief looks like hard to play.
Try P/D + D/D with 0/0/20/20/30 and come back here again to say Thief is hard.
There are also some videos on youtube of people winning and killing people as a Thief smashing the keyboard randomly.

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

Why would I play thief? They’re not very good, only really good players like Caed even do decently with them, but that’s because they’re good players not because the class is overpowered.

Man, you live out of this world or you are playing a completely different game or Guardian is a that stupid and easy to play class at the point that it makes a Thief looks like hard to play.
Try P/D + D/D with 0/0/20/20/30 and come back here again to say Thief is hard.
There are also some videos on youtube of people winning and killing people as a Thief smashing the keyboard randomly.

No I was talking about good players, not hotjoin/wvw.

Jax.5261:

No I was talking about good players, not hotjoin/wvw.

I don’t know if somebody told you yet, but in tPvP the profession is still the same. Skills are the same, traits are the same => same profession. It’s not like that something change when you join tPvP except the number of players and the fact that you can join with a premade team.

sorrow.2364:

Jax.5261:

Dodging (and learning to play) is the answer to this ‘problem’
Warriors do more damage, therefore they’re OP by your logic.
They have more defensive abilities due to having lower armour.
Mesmers only have visual confusion if you’re new to the game and stealth is easy to predict and ends up weaker in tpvp when used in a large amount.
If everything were to stand still and afk, yes everybody would have a 1-shot kill build, fortunately they don’t and due to playing full burst once you dodge the burst (USING NONE OF YOUR SKILLS BECAUSE DODGE ISN’T A SKILL) you can use your skill against them without worrying too much about what they can do.

There is something you missed in my previous post. Looks like that making the text bold isn’t enough to get your attention.

not justify in any form that two professions are capable to deal such an high amount of damage in a that small window of time

Looking closely:

IN A THAT SMALL WINDOW OF TIME

So no, Warrior does not OP according to my logic.

You again missed what I wrote. I know, English isn’t my main language, but I don’t think I wrote that bad to make my post incomprehensible.

It doesn’t justify also that those profession have such an high amount of innate defensive capabilities coming from visual confusion, that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

Looking closely:

that don’t need any form of traiting to be effective into.

THIS is the point. I’ve never said that they have other form of defenses (like visual confusion isn’t enough), but the point is THIS, which you accurately ignored.

And, again, you fell into the “dodge is the answer” argument. I don’t really care how fragile those professions are in your opinion, neither the fact that dodge isn’t a skill. I don’t want also to point out the imprecision of what you wrote (Do you really think that after the burst happens the attacker will be standing still? What is stealth for so?), fact remains that those professions can’t be that punishing for a distraction of a fraction of a second, expecially when you consider the situation of other professions.

Small window of time? Sooo just left hotjoin… The most popular classes there were

thief<war<guardian<Mes<Engi<Ranger<Necro

Fun fact thieves died the most out of anyone on both teams…a single 100b can down you just as fast as a backstab thief and this is great if you just had to use all your CD’s trying to get out of someone elses damage… Guardians (to my surprise) do very good damage and they even have teleports? Apparently so! Actually they have more teleports in two weapons (or weapon sets didn’t get a close look) than I had in my entire build (Mesmer btw). Ele’s d/d, s/d, and even a couple staff had some of the best burst and condi’s combined with sustained DPS was still pretty impressive… thieves have burst granted its spammable but its there… Mesmers have bad DPS (not burst) but we can manage other things. And a rampage/quickness ranger can out damage just about anyone just about as fast… And then the engis may not have bursted everyone down… but man dat c/c… Best I can see… yes this is all from hot join… Why? Because hot join is where most of the gripes about thieves and mesmers come from… And yeah thieves were able to pull their combos off… on targets that were unaware (ie already fighting someone else). Usually if the person saw the thief coming… the thief was toast… If someone on the team called target on the mes… 3seconds mes=dead…. And the amount of time it takes for a mes to get a good “proper” Mesmer burst in equates to a total of 6 clones, 2 shatters, and a minimum of two weapon skills…. I don’t care if you have 20 fingers… That combo still takes time to pull off and if you just got dazed and have about 20 stacks of vulnerability on you either be ready to DODGE! Use a block (Did you know shatters could be blocked?!) gasp. Crazy right? But a shield stance warrior completely mitigated my entire combo because he had his shield up for what seemed an eternity then proceeded to smash me as I desperately tried to get out… Soooooo please… Thief and mes are only popular in hot join because of whiners like this and then the nabs/noobs/ or people that just wanna learn how they work… Pick em up and go see for themselves. That is all. have a good day.

Actually that is not all: You said something about require no traiting to be effective? Go take a Mesmer with no traits into hot join…. See how that treats you… You will have ridiculously long cooldowns on every skill and almost 0 reliable clone/illusion generation… This is why a lot of people that pick mesmers up in PvE drop them really quick because they always die and feel completely weak and underpowered… Go ahead do it… Tell me how you do.

sorrow.2364:

every profession is designed to be capable to deal burst, sustained and conditional damage.

Please provide the developer quote that backs this claim.

jportell.2197:

Small window of time? Sooo just left hotjoin… The most popular classes there were

thief<war<guardian<Mes<Engi<Ranger<Necro

Popular based on what data exactly? I did not mention popularity in any of my post and I think you should too, unless you have proved and reliable statistical data.

jportell.2197:

Fun fact thieves died the most out of anyone on both teams…a single 100b can down you just as fast as a backstab thief and this is great if you just had to use all your CD’s trying to get out of someone elses damage…

Another made up statistic based on nobady knows. Use logic, not data you don’t own. A CnD (which has no cooldown, funny, uh?) is more than enough to get out of someone’s damage if you are good enough. If not, you can also use Shadow Refuge on a reasonable range away and that skill is a sure escape.

jportell.2197:

Guardians (to my surprise) do very good damage and they even have teleports? Apparently so! Actually they have more teleports in two weapons (or weapon sets didn’t get a close look) than I had in my entire build (Mesmer btw). Ele’s d/d, s/d, and even a couple staff had some of the best burst and condi’s combined with sustained DPS was still pretty impressive… etc

So, actually, you agree that Mesmer and Thieves deal the best burst damage in a very fast paced game with no dedicated healers, where the faster and harder the damage is, the better because there is none who heals you while you are getting killed.

I prefer to ignore the sentence about quickness rangers and also the nth made up statistic about where the complain about those professions come from.

jportell.2197:

And yeah thieves were able to pull their combos off… on targets that were unaware (ie already fighting someone else). Usually if the person saw the thief coming… the thief was toast…

Good point.
Sad thing is that thieves has a teleport as an opener and, unless he comes right in your face, you won’t see it and you don’t even have the time to realize that he’s a thief that the burst has started and finished.

jportell.2197:

If someone on the team called target on the mes… 3seconds mes=dead…. And the amount of time it takes for a mes to get a good “proper” Mesmer burst in equates to a total of 6 clones, 2 shatters, and a minimum of two weapon skills…. I don’t care if you have 20 fingers…

Stealth makes the target to lose. A proper mesmer know when he has been targeted.
The preparation doesn’t really matter, what matters is the ability to escape the burst compared to its damage. High damage -> easier to escape. Low damage -> hard to escape. Warrior is all about this, not mesmers.

jportell.2197:

That combo still takes time to pull off and if you just got dazed and have about 20 stacks of vulnerability on you either be ready to DODGE! Use a block (Did you know shatters could be blocked?!) gasp. Crazy right? But a shield stance warrior completely mitigated my entire combo because he had his shield up for what seemed an eternity then proceeded to smash me as I desperately tried to get out… Soooooo please…

Again with dodges. No. When you are immobilized (which is like how almost every mesmer burst works, with I-Leap and Swap) you can’t dodge. So, if you are one of the unlucky profession which have no access to either blocks or invulnerability (see Necromancers or Rangers) you deserve to die. Sounds balanced.

jportell.2197:

Thief and mes are only popular in hot join because of whiners like this and then the nabs/noobs/ or people that just wanna learn how they work… Pick em up and go see for themselves. That is all. have a good day.

Made up statistics part 3. Waiting for part 4.
But this one is served with a false assumption about myself, which makes the whole thing even funnier.
Who told you I’ve never played either Mesmer or Thief? I actually have rerolled Thief from Necromancer, just saying, and I’ve played Mesmer quite enough to say something about that.
Nobody complains about something they don’t know, unless they are stupid. FYI, I’m not.

Actually that is not all: You said something about require no traiting to be effective? Go take a Mesmer with no traits into hot join…. See how that treats you… You will have ridiculously long cooldowns on every skill and almost 0 reliable clone/illusion generation… etc

Let’s say “relatively long” cooldown. Because ridiulously sounds weird when we are talking about skills like I-Leap (12s cooldown), Zerker (20s cooldown), Duelist (20s cooldown), Warlock (20s cooldown), Scepter autoattack and, why not, clone on dodge.
Pretty long cooldowns! LOL

can someone tell me how to dodge this?
inb4 – i am in this situation because i am playing the objective – preventing the enemy to neutralize

I haven’t read most of this thread, but my main issue with mesmers and thieves are that they reserve exclusive rights to mess with an already messy targeting system. This is a huge boon that really shouldn’t be dismissed. It was poor design if you ask me.

The difference between a Thief Burst and a Warriors burst is simple..

Warrior Burst is insanely easy to dodge, and the warrior can’t do it again 4 seconds later or escape the fight if he screws up.

Saying you need stealth because you die to 100b Warriors also cracks me up, Everyone can die to a 100b Warrior….Some of us don’t have stealth to save us from it, even though bout the only time it happens is if they AJ you, or if you’re frankly blind and smashing your head against the keyboard.

Xsorus.2507:

The difference between a Thief Burst and a Warriors burst is simple..

Warrior Burst is insanely easy to dodge, and the warrior can’t do it again 4 seconds later or escape the fight if he screws up.

Saying you need stealth because you die to 100b Warriors also cracks me up, Everyone can die to a 100b Warrior….Some of us don’t have stealth to save us from it, even though bout the only time it happens is if they AJ you, or if you’re frankly blind and smashing your head against the keyboard.

Just curious, who are you comparing warrior burst to that has a 4 sec CD on their combo? These are the numbers I come up with:

“Brainless” Warrior Combo:

Bull’s Charge (40s CD) -> Frenzy (60s CD) -> Hundred Blades (8s/6s traited CD) -(optional)> Eviscerate (10s/8s traited CD + endurance)

Longest CD = 60 sec downtime

“Brainless” Thief Combo:

Basilisk Venom (45s/36s traited CD) -> Cloak and Dagger (6 ini) -> Mug (45s/38s traited CD) -> Backstab (0 ini, requires stealth)

Longest CD = 45 sec downtime, 38 sec if traited

Granted, in every scenario a thief burst is indeed up faster, but the only place I could see you pulling “4 seconds” from is if you are only considering Cloak and Dagger+Backstab, which in itself is far from a lethal burst on any target except for a glass cannon elementalist.

Considering CnD+BS on its own is more akin to something like leg specialist bladetrail+100b. There is still a difference, but both classes can pull these off multiple times in a teamfight.

@Sorrow
The popularity of my experience in this 3 hours of a hotjoin server. As I played but I did make sure I checked both teams and that is what I came up with for the class popularity. That is what the data is based off of. If you want me to I can interrupt my fun time to take an array of screenshots for you next time and make a spread sheet… But that is what I found in that time as far as popularity goes keeping this thread in mind (and I specifically chose hotjoins to do this quick sample survey).

Once again the data on how much thieves died is from my experience in this time in hot join on this server. And watching (receiving) this 100B combo as the warriors picked the targets they knew were more vulnerable then others (out of endurance and such) can still shield bash you before hand and then weapon swap and bust out their 100B. They still were handling things extremely well and downed people from full quite quick A good CnD can stealth you but that’s it… You are still in the area and vulnerable

I did not say I agreed that thieves and mes have the very best burst damage… I was talking about guardian damage specifically and also the in combat mobility of guardians I’m not sure why you dismissed my comment about the ranger that was doing amazingly well… Something funny the ranger LB 3 stacks vulnerability at the same height that a mesmer has to go 15 points into a trait line to achieve reliably. The data on people griping about things comes from forums like this, and threads that have been started complaining about rangers to see what people were mad about. So I don’t know why you dismissed this. And also you completely ignored when I stated that ele’s were doing the best burst and DPS than any other class…

You seem to ignore other classes that have teleports aside from thieves… I stated they died more than any of the other classes in this time I spent in hot joins (ironically were the biggest trash talkers). I try to be the happiest person in map chat in hot joins.

Here again on the calling target on the mes… We have a total of 4 skills that stealth us Usually most mesmers will only run decoy, and in hot joins mass invis, The lack of veil being a stun breaker causes them to not run it leaving us with decoy. Some run torch but the state of confusion in sPvP makes most run something else in the offhand. So if the mes has had the target called on them it suddenly drops OMG mes just used decoy lets as a team wait a whopping 3 seconds for them to pop out good thing about mesmer stealth is they only get stealth and no added bonuses unless they are 30 points into chaos which… (lol). Mass invis really obvious animation really easy to interrupt (because any good team has recalled target once the mes has come back out of stealth). And warrior burst can still be hard to get out of situation depending… If we open on each other with all skills ready then we both dodge the initial damage and its just a race to see who can re burst faster…

part II to follow for Sorrow

@ My response to Sorrow PtII

And then you talked about the not being able to dodge the entire combo… If the mesmer does the combo how YOU state they should… They are hurting their damage and or survivability because that means they are popping most stun breaks and a stealth skill. The best way to do it is to pop a 3 clone diversion then use only ONE stun break with iLeap and swap so that still gives a window of time to respond to what is about to happen… If the mesmer pops the entire combo and tries to maxmize damage then they would have to use both clone generating slot skills during blurred frenzy which will hamper them for the next 30+seconds. Or they only doing a two clone shatter in one of these which hurts damage but helps survivability. So yes a max damage shatter has a chance to avoid… A shatter that is harder to avoid is going to either be less effective or hamper survivability… So most mesmers won’t have you immobilized for the entire combo. And necro’s have access to a higher health pool and even a GC necro will survive a mesmer burst quite easily. And then rangers don’t have access to blocks? Hi my name’s greatsword rangers can use me and I have a block…

Lastly the trait thing… You said NO traits so no deceptive evasion for you buddy! OH and welcome to a longer cool down on all shatters. And the ridiculously long cooldowns I was referencing was to slot skills (mirror images, decoy) which are also subsequently stun breakers… And the 20s cooldowns on phantasms… Remember this recent ele nerf that increased RTL to 20s? Did you see some of the out rage that occured there? Well that happened to mesmer phantasms as well… every single one has had a CD increase since launch which causes mesmers more so to rely heavily on combining weapon reducing and illusion reducing traits to be able to keep some illusions coming constantly… And then you reference scepter auto attack? Please stay alive long enough against any class to finish that chain off as your source of clones… See how long you last without ANY traits. You will find that you will not have anywhere near the amount of illusions you had hoped and no survivability. So this makes your last argument laughably flawed and I would love to see any mesmer have the survivability that people kitten about with no trait points spent at all… So yeah… Way off there…

If actually experienced players and not hotjoin/WvW kids would answer, this thread would be so smaller. Why? Because ppl would agree that in tPvP (and this is the mode where A-Net is balancing the classes) a thief is one of the most difficult classes to play, also good players know how to dodge the dmg of a mesmer easily. As a mesmer you face most of the time eles. Telling me you don’t need any skill for these both classes is just lack of experience in real competition.