Guild Wars 2

Conditions are a primary source of heavy damage and powerful CC for some builds, specially with necros becoming stronger not having condition removal in PvP is very risky and most players try to bring a decent amount of condi removal and for good reason. The current condi removal model however suffers from the same issues that stun breakers used to, it forces classes into certain builds, or it lives in abilities that are too narrow in use often leaving players with the choice of either being very good or very weak against conditions depending on traits and abilities, with little in between.

When players are correctly saying “I can’t be killed by condie classes 1v1” or “I can’t counter condi builds in my build”, there is something wrong with balance. Some builds should be stronger than others against condis depending on player investment in countering them, just like against everything else, but it shouldn’t be so rock, paper, scissors. All builds should have some active anti condi counters built in if used correctly and no builds should be able to just neutralize them.

Two examples:

Engineer Elixir C is an example of a poor condi removal. It’s strong against a high/multiple condi build but overkill against fewer/weaker condis and useless against anything that isn’t conditions. It only shines in a “I got tons of condis on me and I’m not stunned/feared/knockdown” situation. The cast time restricts it even more. The conversion of condis into buffs is also problematic as what should be a counter to a necro spam is in turn countered by corrupt boon. It’s way too situational.

Mesmer Null Field is an example of a good one, it’s also a field that can be comboed off which is always useful, it’s also a boon removal so it can also be used aggressively as well. It can be put under another player/s standing on point if you’re off on the side. But all of those uses may mean the mesmer won’t have it when he needs it most for condi removal. The ability is situational but applicable to multiple situations, it’s flexible and requires skill and awareness from the player to use it at the right time/the right way. It’s what condi removal abilities should be like. Thief Infiltrator’s Strike is another good example, where the thief gets to remove one condition but has to sacrifice both initiative and positioning to do so.

So condi removal abilities should be: active, multi-purpose and strategic in use.

I think these three things need to happen:

a) Passive condi removal should go away, it dumbs down the game, condition removal should be all about either skillful timing or built into multipurpose abilities where the player has to plan when to use it strategically depending on the situation.

b) They need to be more spread out. Most classes only have one or two abilities that remove conditions, thief is the only one with a weapon ability that does, and most classes have a really strong condi removal that is an all or nothing investment in condi removal. All classes should have built in weaker condition removals (not remove all/convert all) on at least 3-4 abilities and weapon abilities where they could be added into any build to provide some condi removal that’s easily obtained, but of limited effectiveness and usually at the cost of blowing CDs early or holding them back to time the removal well.

c) Condi removal traits should be more spread out between trait lines so classes can get to it in different ways, which is not giving them more condi removal overall since people can’t go down every trait line, but removing the “you need to go down THAT one trait line to get condi removal” (see ranger Wilderness Survival line for a prime example) and giving classes different multiple ways to remove condition depending on where they invest their traits.

@ C)
Does it not make sense to have condi removal in certain lines in order to make those lines appealing to begin with?

Far as I can tell the main issue with condi removal is that in most cases if you take condi removal your counter pressure drops below what is necessary to beat the condition spam that you spec’d against in the first place. Or finally your output against anything not condition based is unsatisfactory for the trade-off. Full-stop.

ensoriki.5789:

@ C)
Does it not make sense to have condi removal in certain lines in order to make those lines appealing to begin with?

Yes it does, but that gets to the difference between “this line is the strongest against conditions” vs “this is the only line with condition counters”. With the first players make choices about how much they want to invest in condi counter. But on the second scenario players may feel like investing in that line is mandatory specially in a condi meta. Either that or they just accept condis will own them every time which just isn’t a good system either way. A lot of the condi removal traits also force players to use certain abilities, like with engies and elixirs, so if they don’t wan to run elixirs they have very few options.

Players shouldn’t be so restricted in their builds to be able to have some counter against conditions, but of course some builds will be stronger against it them others.

Think about the issue in terms of team composition instead of individual 1v1s.

Archer Henchman.2534:

Think about the issue in terms of team composition instead of individual 1v1s.

When 1v1 is too unbalanced it unbalances team play. When you know class A will counter class B by default, you can send A to push B without it being the risk to the team it should be. This game is designed within a framework where all classes have a certain degree of independence in countering and are each in their own way balanced and with many build options. The current anti condi structure is not lining up with either of those things and it’s limiting team comps as well just like individual builds.

Julius.1094:

ensoriki.5789:

@ C)
Does it not make sense to have condi removal in certain lines in order to make those lines appealing to begin with?

Yes it does, but that gets to the difference between “this line is the strongest against conditions” vs “this is the only line with condition counters”. With the first players make choices about how much they want to invest in condi counter. But on the second scenario players may feel like investing in that line is mandatory specially in a condi meta. Either that or they just accept condis will own them every time which just isn’t a good system either way. A lot of the condi removal traits also force players to use certain abilities, like with engies and elixirs, so if they don’t wan to run elixirs they have very few options.

Players shouldn’t be so restricted in their builds to be able to have some counter against conditions, but of course some builds will be stronger against it them others.

Well there are supposed to be meaningful choices, of which Utility skills are a part. My personal perspective has been that the condi-removal via Utility skills being underwhelming. Archer’s right that it’s a team game but even then support limitations can make this quite difficult to actually apply if it works in the first place. Generally due to pbaoe range limits. To counter aoe spam, you need aoe condi-removal. Doesn’t actually feel proportionate to the spam you’re up against.

I think it’s silly to believe that EVERY build should have some sort of condi removal. Certain builds should be countered by other builds, that’s the way things should be and that’s the way things will be because trying to change it is like trying to make every human being look and act the same and that just won’t work.

The reason why this is a team game is so that different teammates can make up for your weakness. The fact is there are very few AoE condition removal skills in this game and even if there was enough condi-removal, they would still have to be on long cooldowns whilst condis would still be on short cds.

The fact is, what we need is something to mitigate condi damage. And I’m pretty sure Anet understands that now.

The tru problem whit condition removal: too much class that use conditions, too much conditions, too much frequently hit by a condition.
Frequently the problem Isn’t against a single enemy but the sinergy of condition applyer, fields and the number of the enemy that use conditions. How can you win whit a condition remove build against 2 enemy that use AoE that give conditions?

You’re whit your team. You fight in the… clock tower!… and you’ve 2 enemy that use necro. Ok: now explain how you hope to clean the conditions when they use graound AoE and skills like Epidemic to expand conditions to you and all your team? And don’t forget the dark and venom field of some necro or ranger or engi skills that can help enemy to give you more and more conditions whit simple ranged attacks or finishers.

The problem isn’t the 1vs1 condition applier/remover, the problem is the sinergy.

Dirame.8521:

I think it’s silly to believe that EVERY build should have some sort of condi removal. Certain builds should be countered by other builds, that’s the way things should be and that’s the way things will be because trying to change it is like trying to make every human being look and act the same and that just won’t work.

The reason why this is a team game is so that different teammates can make up for your weakness. The fact is there are very few AoE condition removal skills in this game and even if there was enough condi-removal, they would still have to be on long cooldowns whilst condis would still be on short cds.

The fact is, what we need is something to mitigate condi damage. And I’m pretty sure Anet understands that now.

There is a difference between soft countered and hard countered. Hard counters lower the skill cap and lead to silly compositions. With hard counter builds it’s less about player skill and more about having the comp that hard counters the other comp and that’s not good pvp it’s rock, papers, scissors. The ease of condi stacking in spvp atm just isn’t proportional to how difficult it is for most classes and builds to pick up condi removal, which makes some builds just not pick it up and thus get hard countered by it. There was a similar issue with CC so Anet made stun breakers easier to get for various builds, conditions need the same treatment and for the same reason. Did spreading out stun breakers and making them easier to add in to more builds make everyone “the same”? Nope.