The Reality of New Leaderboard Algorithm

The Reality of New Leaderboard Algorithm

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Posted by: Chaith.8256

Chaith.8256

Hi folks. As you know, the leaderboards reset on Friday, and a new algorithm was implemented that reflected: “a much stronger focus on wins, with less weight given to the sheer number of games played over a period of time.”

Immediately that sounded like great news to me. I thought the 2 or so individuals equipped with in-chair toiletry and an overhead feed dispenser tube would be finally be overcame as the holders of the Arenanet given titles, “leaders of PvP.”

So now it’s Sunday morning, and there’s been 2 sleeps since the leaderboard reset, I check it out to see how things are progressing.

So, the #1 guy on NA has logged 104 games at the time of this post. If you factor in the two, 8hr sleeps we’ve had, that means for every waking hour, they’ve completed 5 games that hour. Impressive. The guy has 61 points. 55 wins and 49 losses, and 52.88% win rate.

I look at the very close #2 guy on NA, and he has 59 points. 56 wins, and 26 losses, for a 68.29% win rate.

There is not a darn thing that the #1 guy has over the #2 guy, besides twice the amount of losses, of course.

How is this explainable by the language used to describe the new Algorithm? There is a disconnect between reality and expectations here. This is not a focus on win ratio (maximizing wins, minimizing losses) at all. This is still just a focus on farming wins.

After a little research, what was changed was the ability to gain points from losses was nerfed.

What needed to happen to give any credibility to these leaderboards are for losses to affect you negatively.

Having more points than you have wins? How does going 50 wins and 50 losses in a low MMR bracket result in 60 points? Shouldn’t it be slightly closer to um, 0 points than 60 points? (Not saying it should be zero gain, but just a very very very slow gain.) Am I the only one taking crazy pills here?

Since losing games still doesn’t matter at low MMR levels, it’s still simply a matter about how many wins can be farmed, and losses are disregarded. Look at the #1 and #2 players on NA leaderboards to see this is true.

At low MMR, any amount of defeats are never going to negatively affect accumulated points. If you repeatedly lose, sure, you’re not getting wins, but fast queue times allow you to do 4-5 per hour intead of 2.5-3 at high MMR. On a model that’s still 100% based on how many wins you can grind, now instead of how many wins and losses you can grind, it’s really not changed anything.

That brings me to touch on the experiences of a high MMR players.

  • As a high MMR solo, or duo in Ranked queue, you’re a beacon that pulls all middle to high tier teams against you, magnifying the imbalances that matchmaking can’t account for, teamspeak/coordination, high performance comp. High MMR solo queue has a severely handicapped win rate. Personally, I find it unplayable due to the extreme pressure/frustration to shepherd players with widely fluctuating experience and effectiveness, against a coordinated foe.
  • As a high MMR four queue, the 5th player is often going to be the equilivant of an assassin’s amulet 6/6/0/0/1 Staff Elementalist who’s taking their first baby steps of the game, creating frustration for this one player, and essentially a 4v5 scenario. It’s a handicap that is quite annoying, and will always be a clear decision for the group to simply picking up a competent 5th.
  • This leads to the realization that medium to high MMR players can only attempt to achieve quality matches, with a competitive win rate representative of their skill, without severe handicaps, when they queue as a full group. This further limits group playtime to a couple hours a day, where a group of 5 competent players can be organized and continuously play. This creates a further disadvantage in win farming compared to low MMR solo queuers.
  • High MMR gameplay in any size incurs a 6-10 Minute queue time. This drastically reduces leaderboard point generation. We’re talking like, low MMR players can fit 4-5 in a leaderboard update, and high MMR players can fit 2-3. It’s cut by around 33-40%. I can’t stress enough that this is an entirely unfair and imbalanced mechanic that nearly ruins the balance of who can farm more wins, which the current rankings are now based on.

If I could make anything clear from this wall of text on my matchmaking / leaderboard thoughts, it is that:

It’s wrong that rapid fire, low MMR, low quality, imbalanced matches, are the optimal way to progress towards mastering the leaderboards. It’s so completely backwards and nonsensical. High MMR players are punished in almost every way, unless they form a premade which is the other extreme, totally circumventing all balance handicaps, often facing non-premades with only a few good players, who have to carry ridiculously hard to win. Leaderboard progress at no point ever, will reflect the progress in mastering the game, or becoming stronger.

Forum Lord Chaith
Twitch.tv/chaithh
New Twitter: @chaithhh

(edited by Chaith.8256)

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Posted by: infantrydiv.1620

infantrydiv.1620

We need a visible MMR leaderboard based on Glicko2, not some horrible system the devs just randomly came up with.

Arenanet keeps trying to reinvent to wheel, just give us back the old leaderboards with permanent decay. It’s so stupid that they can mess up such simple stuff like this so badly.

Also remove hotjoin (leave custom arenas as selectable from the list) and have Casual queue, ranked solo queue, and ranked team queue.

Ranger//Necro

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Posted by: crunchyraisin.6054

crunchyraisin.6054

Yes.

Also…just made a post that says exactly the same thing while you were typing out this bad boy.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

My question is… why don’t they just implement something other games are using successfully instead of trying to create a special snowflake for GW2?

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Posted by: MarkPhilips.5169

MarkPhilips.5169

Amen.

Change this LB as fast as you can.

And this time not a “soft” change but a very different system.

Probably the next season will be with the HoT expansion, i hope to see sperate queues for every game mode, a League Seasons and a really different LB system

This would be really great.

Thx

(edited by MarkPhilips.5169)

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Posted by: Sorel.4870

Sorel.4870

We need a visible MMR leaderboard based on Glicko2, not some horrible system the devs just randomly came up with.

Arenanet keeps trying to reinvent to wheel, just give us back the old leaderboards with permanent decay. It’s so stupid that they can mess up such simple stuff like this so badly.

Jeez, nobody ever thought of that… You know, the old LB was exactly that: strictly MMR-based: the higher the MMR, the higher you were on the LB. And guess what happened? Wannabe top players opened new threads every week to complain about a new player being able to reach the top 10 in only twenty games. Most of my first posts on these forums were about explaining to this very loud part of the pvp community why the LB was working perfectly fine, and that it was the best system for a game that was always careful about catering to the skilled, but occasional player.

If you read these threads, you’ll see that at the time my views were a minority. We brought this on ourselves guys. Sure, Anet should have known better than listening to the bad-at-math hardcore pvpers, but you have to realize that these forums are ALWAYS filled with whiners, no matter the chosen system.

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Posted by: Sars.8792

Sars.8792

Use old system, without decay to prevent the sling shot when you didn’t play for awhile. no need for decay with seasons.

make it take twice as long to build/change mmr to prevent people with a lucky 12-15 games being at top.

2 ez?

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Posted by: Collero.7963

Collero.7963

It pains me every time I see a decent post like this because I know that ArenaNet doesn’t give a flying kitten about what you or any other player has to say and will continue to do what they think is right, which is often always the wrong thing.

Top 10 TeamQ // Rank 1 & 2 SoloQ // 12,000+ sPvP Games
…and what a waste of time it all was.

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Posted by: Quilja.9425

Quilja.9425

+1 to this post

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Posted by: SobeSoul.6910

SobeSoul.6910

Use old system, without decay to prevent the sling shot when you didn’t play for awhile. no need for decay with seasons.

make it take twice as long to build/change mmr to prevent people with a lucky 12-15 games being at top.

2 ez?

12 or 15 games doesn’t sound like luck to me.

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Posted by: jessiejay.3625

jessiejay.3625

I second to request for the return of solo
Que and team que.

Ms Jessie ~ Captain Jess, 2012
FracTonic|OmniPot|Golden Arms
Ad Infinitum & The Ascension

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Posted by: Josh Davis.6015

Josh Davis.6015

Next

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by any stretch of the imagination.

(edited by Josh Davis.6015)

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Posted by: Chaith.8256

Chaith.8256

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

That’s great to hear.

It’s my hope that the next test season will be very different in the means in which you progress through the leaderboards.

Very different, along the lines of:

  • An improved version, based on the original leaderboards.
  • With normalized volatility, perhaps a sensible cap on how much leaderboard progress can be gained/lost from a single win.
  • Permanent decay penalty being applied if a threshold of minimum games a week is not met.
Forum Lord Chaith
Twitch.tv/chaithh
New Twitter: @chaithhh

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Posted by: Thoth Divine.8642

Thoth Divine.8642

The problem with the OP’s suggestion is that it doesn’t account for irregularities in matchmaking, which the current system does.

And the issue with a no-decay Glicko2 system is obviously that someone who might’ve went on a good win streak & got into top 20, will be encouraged to just stay there until the end of the season rather than keep playing & risking losing his rank.

Just my thoughts on this. I think the new leaderboards aren’t so bad though I still think I preferred the old one better. The decay was perhaps a little high however, but overall it wasn’t so bad.

Blessed Curse – Symbolic DH
Thoth Divine – Power Necro
I Hope You Die – Burst Berserker

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Posted by: Collero.7963

Collero.7963

Hopefully by 2017, we’ll have something that isn’t a ‘Test Season’ although it’ll probably be scrapped and something worse will replace it.

Top 10 TeamQ // Rank 1 & 2 SoloQ // 12,000+ sPvP Games
…and what a waste of time it all was.

(edited by Collero.7963)

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Posted by: wwwes.1398

wwwes.1398

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

Serious question and not snarky, why do we have periods of no real leaderboard followed by test seasons? Couldn’t you be testing leaderboard changes like every other week?

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

A post like this always keeps me at ease, knowing you and your team are intently trying to make the system better. Appreciate the response!

aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

That’s great to hear.

It’s my hope that the next test season will be very different in the means in which you progress through the leaderboards.

Very different, along the lines of:

  • An improved version, based on the original leaderboards.
  • With normalized volatility, perhaps a sensible cap on how much leaderboard progress can be gained/lost from a single win.
  • Permanent decay penalty being applied if a threshold of minimum games a week is not met.

It isn’t good to hear really though is it. That post makes sense if they were testing the leaderboard for a couple of weeks. But testing it for 2 months seems like they just dont have the resources necessary to make the required changes.

That is fine though, because in real life it takes way more time to do even simple things than us players think. And any changes must go through a process which probably takes a ton of time. There will be bottlenecks everywhere it is just the reality of life.

Problem is we are gtd to have this broken leaderboard for at least 4/5 more months.

Which means no more teams for 4/5 more months because there is no serious team queue for teams to practice and test people/comps out.

And that is best case scenario. The most likely scenario is no working leaderboard till probably late 2016.

Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

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Posted by: Collero.7963

Collero.7963

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

That’s great to hear.

It’s my hope that the next test season will be very different in the means in which you progress through the leaderboards.

Very different, along the lines of:

  • An improved version, based on the original leaderboards.
  • With normalized volatility, perhaps a sensible cap on how much leaderboard progress can be gained/lost from a single win.
  • Permanent decay penalty being applied if a threshold of minimum games a week is not met.

It isn’t good to hear really though is it.

This.

I don’t play actively anymore but even I think that is an awful thing to hear. It’s pointless to sugarcoat it.

Top 10 TeamQ // Rank 1 & 2 SoloQ // 12,000+ sPvP Games
…and what a waste of time it all was.

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Posted by: Vissarion.6509

Vissarion.6509

EU is even worse:

1st: wins:68 looses:46 win%:59.65%
2nd: wins:63 looses:16 win%:79.75%

They called us TEMPESTs, but we can use our elite to cheat death instead

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Posted by: Zodian.6597

Zodian.6597

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

Are they even using a rating algorithm anymore?
It kinda sounds like it’s just a ladder point algorithm, which would be a step backwards imo.

Neglekt

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Posted by: Random Weird Guy.3528

Random Weird Guy.3528

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

Are they even using a rating algorithm anymore?
It kinda sounds like it’s just a ladder point algorithm, which would be a step backwards imo.

MMR still uses rating, but the leaderboard is purely points based.

Random Engineering // Trixxti // Random Noises (worst thief eu)
Svanir Appreciation Society [SAS]

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

Are they even using a rating algorithm anymore?
It kinda sounds like it’s just a ladder point algorithm, which would be a step backwards imo.

They still use a matchmaking algorithm based on MMR. Which actually works well imo. Really well, I think it is very well written and coded in general. Honestly most solo queue matches are well balanced and fair.

The problem is that the system has killed team forming. You used to be get very good eu players pugging up and queueing in team queue because everybody wanted to get high on the leaderboards. Now, nobody respects the leaderboard and so nobody cares about trying in gw2 and forming a roster.

Almost all teams came out of people pugging and making friends. By pugging they realised who players they gelled with and who was a similar level. So they could then gather up a player base of dudes who they could form a team with. Many many many teams formed in this way. Most people started out pugging seriously on ts and that is how they proved themselves AND how they found others who didnt rage/they got on with etc.

The failure of the leaderboard is currently killing the formation of teams. I know it sounds counter intuitive but it is what many of us have observed.

No new teams pop up anymore whereas in september/october there were teams popping up everywhere. Every day there would be some new teams of people try harding gw2 pvp.

This was because Grouch and Anet did great work building up the competitive scene. That scene is now AT BEST stagnant because there is no way for new teams to form currently. Which is a massive shame. Anet do so much so well, but the leaderboards are one of the things currently killing all that.

You can still pug up in a premade but you wont get any games good enough to know how good the people you are playing with really are anymore.

imo

Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

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Posted by: chibbi.3706

chibbi.3706

I don’t understand why Anet is trying to invent something that already exists and is used by any competitive game : elo system.
Since this is a team game with a soloQ mode, which is basically the same as a moba, just copy what LoL does that works extremely well.

For people who haven’t play LoL here’s how it works :
Each game you play gives you or make you lose points depending on the difference between your mmr and the mmr corresponding to your points. (if you have a higher mmr than points, you’ll win more points in case of a win, and lose less points in case of a loss. If you have lower mmr than points you lose more points and win less)
If you don’t play for a while you start losing points (but not MMR !) until you play again.
Players at the top of the ladder must play more regularly to avoid decay, this way you prevent people from getting high and then not playing again to not risk losing their rank.

And that’s pretty much it, this way you have a leaderboard that actually represent skill, and prevent people from abusing it by not playing.
Simple.

(edited by chibbi.3706)

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

how is it different? has justin updated the wiki? or will there be a new blog with some kind of different scoring matrix? because it looks the same and smells the same so far.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: leman.7682

leman.7682

Well, it makes no sense whatsoever. The current leaderboards are way below the soloQ leaderboards when it comes to actually describing the player skill.

Hope it doesn’t take you another half a year to understand that the current system is bad, scrap it, then wait another year before you can come up with something better.

Don’t test bad things, introduce something decent, for once, and stick with it for better or worse. SoloQ leaderboards were okay.

Leman

(edited by leman.7682)

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Posted by: Anti.9156

Anti.9156

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

Are they even using a rating algorithm anymore?
It kinda sounds like it’s just a ladder point algorithm, which would be a step backwards imo.

They still use a matchmaking algorithm based on MMR. Which actually works well imo. Really well, I think it is very well written and coded in general. Honestly most solo queue matches are well balanced and fair.

The problem is that the system has killed team forming. You used to be get very good eu players pugging up and queueing in team queue because everybody wanted to get high on the leaderboards. Now, nobody respects the leaderboard and so nobody cares about trying in gw2 and forming a roster.

Almost all teams came out of people pugging and making friends. By pugging they realised who players they gelled with and who was a similar level. So they could then gather up a player base of dudes who they could form a team with. Many many many teams formed in this way. Most people started out pugging seriously on ts and that is how they proved themselves AND how they found others who didnt rage/they got on with etc.

The failure of the leaderboard is currently killing the formation of teams. I know it sounds counter intuitive but it is what many of us have observed.

No new teams pop up anymore whereas in september/october there were teams popping up everywhere. Every day there would be some new teams of people try harding gw2 pvp.

This was because Grouch and Anet did great work building up the competitive scene. That scene is now AT BEST stagnant because there is no way for new teams to form currently. Which is a massive shame. Anet do so much so well, but the leaderboards are one of the things currently killing all that.

You can still pug up in a premade but you wont get any games good enough to know how good the people you are playing with really are anymore.

imo

pretty much this. in november we had like 11-12 top teams. We had TOG, TOL and new go4cups aswell as wts on the door. Then they brought in the Scoreboard to replace the Leaderboards. Now we have 4 teams on EU

Leaderboards should show the skilllevel and therefor should be based on MMR. There is no need for testing this point system. just give us back the old one and test out decay systems instead

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

There is no need for testing this point system. just give us back the old one and test out decay systems instead

As “angsty” as this guy’s post is… I actually agree with him. The only problem I had with the old leaderboards was the decay (or lack thereof).

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Posted by: Dead Muppet.9718

Dead Muppet.9718

“This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios”

Again favouring the teamed up players. Thanks Anet for catering to that portion of your game.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

An important thing to keep in mind is that these events are tests, and the only thing we’re testing right now is the formula behind ranking. We’re gathering a lot of useful data that we can use to help us make better decisions. These “test seasons” not a final product by stretch of the imagination.

If I can say so, my perfect ladder would probably have a hard cap of 250 games. You know going in exactly how many tries you have to collect wins.

Rank in order of how many wins you have. Win:loss ratio breaks ties (if you both have 102 wins, the guy who did it in 125 games ranks higher than the guy who did it in 200).

Done. — No special snowflake credit for people who have the time to play 700 times in your season. No mercy for people who think winning 8 out their first 10 matches should magically extrapolate into 200 wins out of 250 without actually playing it out. And if you have that many people who can pull a pure 250 wins-in-a-row streak, then we’ll talk black magic behind the scenes formulas.

Until then, keep it simple.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

-snip-

The wins need to be weighted though. A win against Abjured shouldn’t be calculated the same as a win against “The French Toast Mafia”.

It would give too much of an advantage to the people who are able to play during the slower periods when most of the “pro” players are hard at work.

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Posted by: Malediktus.3740

Malediktus.3740

Make it so only your first 10 games of a day count towards the ladderboard.

One of my 30 accounts (Malediktus.9250).

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Posted by: Thoth Divine.8642

Thoth Divine.8642

I don’t understand why Anet is trying to invent something that already exists and is used by any competitive game : elo system.
Since this is a team game with a soloQ mode, which is basically the same as a moba, just copy what LoL does that works extremely well.

For people who haven’t play LoL here’s how it works :
Each game you play gives you or make you lose points depending on the difference between your mmr and the mmr corresponding to your points. (if you have a higher mmr than points, you’ll win more points in case of a win, and lose less points in case of a loss. If you have lower mmr than points you lose more points and win less)
If you don’t play for a while you start losing points (but not MMR !) until you play again.
Players at the top of the ladder must play more regularly to avoid decay, this way you prevent people from getting high and then not playing again to not risk losing their rank.

And that’s pretty much it, this way you have a leaderboard that actually represent skill, and prevent people from abusing it by not playing.
Simple.

This please.

Blessed Curse – Symbolic DH
Thoth Divine – Power Necro
I Hope You Die – Burst Berserker

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Posted by: hackks.3687

hackks.3687

It really doesn’t make sense. They’re actually trying to reinvent the wheel.

That’s been my understanding of it as well.

Hackkz/Riggamaroll
I’ve stayed at this party entirely too long

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Posted by: SoulSin.5682

SoulSin.5682

I don’t understand why Anet is trying to invent something that already exists and is used by any competitive game : elo system.
Since this is a team game with a soloQ mode, which is basically the same as a moba, just copy what LoL does that works extremely well.

For people who haven’t play LoL here’s how it works :
Each game you play gives you or make you lose points depending on the difference between your mmr and the mmr corresponding to your points. (if you have a higher mmr than points, you’ll win more points in case of a win, and lose less points in case of a loss. If you have lower mmr than points you lose more points and win less)
If you don’t play for a while you start losing points (but not MMR !) until you play again.
Players at the top of the ladder must play more regularly to avoid decay, this way you prevent people from getting high and then not playing again to not risk losing their rank.

And that’s pretty much it, this way you have a leaderboard that actually represent skill, and prevent people from abusing it by not playing.
Simple.

We would need 10 times more players to make that system work as intended.

What people here seens to fail to understand is that most of the “systems that every game uses” are meant to work on giant community’s that sPvP currently doesn’t have.

Which is why Anet must “reinvent the wheel” until they find something that works.

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Posted by: SobeSoul.6910

SobeSoul.6910

That’s wrong.

Chess sites that are smaller than the spvp sites work sufficiently well.

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Posted by: Royal.2693

Royal.2693

Why not simply give +5 points for each win, -3 points for each loss, and -10 points for a disconnect. That makes both grinders and tryhards happy.

There is no need for a “chance of winning” thing. They just have to make matchmaking good, which it mostly is, but it requires more active players.

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Posted by: Reikou.7068

Reikou.7068

The solution to all of this is to either.

1. Keep points based leaderboard but make remove MMR from matchmaking completely. Make it a random arena. Doesn’t matter what your MMR is. You could fight against a day 1 full solo queue group as the best team in the game, or you have the same chance to fight another group of your same level. Same with vice-versa. This is the only way a points-based leaderboard could work. It will also make queuing as anything less than 5 will also be much more “viable.”

2. Make it a MMR based leaderboard, and have MMR-based matchmaking.

Reikou/Reira/Iroha/Sengiku/Rinoka/Kuruse/Sakuho/Kinae/Yuzusa/Kikurin/Otoha/Hasue/Mioko
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(edited by Reikou.7068)

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Posted by: Royal.2693

Royal.2693

Why not simply give +5 points for each win, -3 points for each loss, and -10 points for a disconnect. That makes both grinders and tryhards happy.

There is no need for a “chance of winning” thing. They just have to make matchmaking good, which it mostly is, but it requires more active players.

Or they could just use the same system that every other competitive game in the world uses.

But they want to be “special” !

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

  • M
  • M
  • R
PvP guild [YUM] -apply- (EU) http://muffinspvp.shivtr.com/

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Posted by: SoulSin.5682

SoulSin.5682

That’s wrong.

Chess sites that are smaller than the spvp sites work sufficiently well.

Chess implies one person against one person.
Regardless of system finding a single match of your skill in a pool of players is easy.

Now lets add 4 more players to each team on 8, soon to be 9, different classes that must, as possible, not repeat thenselves.

A bit more complicated than a chess game right?

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Posted by: Zodian.6597

Zodian.6597

Thanks for writing up your concerns so succinctly.

This test season is intended to test an algorithm that’s tailored towards ranking players higher for better W/L ratios, in addition to using points gained from playing (meaning games played does not become valueless). The algorithm we’re using this time around is completely different than what was previously tested, and they both have different purposes. We’re already having internal discussions on how we can adjust this season’s algorithm to better suit the goals we stated on Thursday – rewarding players who play well, not just play. These discussions will continue into the next week, and now we have an entire weekend’s worth of data that we can look at and extrapolate on.

Are they even using a rating algorithm anymore?
It kinda sounds like it’s just a ladder point algorithm, which would be a step backwards imo.

They still use a matchmaking algorithm based on MMR. Which actually works well imo. Really well, I think it is very well written and coded in general. Honestly most solo queue matches are well balanced and fair.

The problem is that the system has killed team forming. You used to be get very good eu players pugging up and queueing in team queue because everybody wanted to get high on the leaderboards. Now, nobody respects the leaderboard and so nobody cares about trying in gw2 and forming a roster.

Almost all teams came out of people pugging and making friends. By pugging they realised who players they gelled with and who was a similar level. So they could then gather up a player base of dudes who they could form a team with. Many many many teams formed in this way. Most people started out pugging seriously on ts and that is how they proved themselves AND how they found others who didnt rage/they got on with etc.

The failure of the leaderboard is currently killing the formation of teams. I know it sounds counter intuitive but it is what many of us have observed.

No new teams pop up anymore whereas in september/october there were teams popping up everywhere. Every day there would be some new teams of people try harding gw2 pvp.

This was because Grouch and Anet did great work building up the competitive scene. That scene is now AT BEST stagnant because there is no way for new teams to form currently. Which is a massive shame. Anet do so much so well, but the leaderboards are one of the things currently killing all that.

You can still pug up in a premade but you wont get any games good enough to know how good the people you are playing with really are anymore.

imo

I think having an unregulated solo vs premade queue will always cause problems for the ladder. Maybe they could just try splitting the MMRs to where you have like a team/guild mmr for when you queue with 2+ ppl in your guild, and that could be displayed on a team ladder. Then they could have like a solo rating for when you queue alone/duo. Maybe they already have this, but it’s just tied to the player when it needs to be tied to the guild? Eg; you have solo ladder that displays names, then team ladder that displays guild names. This might promote team forming if rewards were offered to players who have played in at least 25% of the top guild’s ranked games.
Either way, the one thing that seems to be clear to everyone is that points = bad, ratings = good. This has been the mentality from the get go, even back when we had the QP ladder. Does anyone even mind having games played be completely thrown out as a variable in the algorithm? Like if you played 1 game and it was against abjured and you won, don’t you deserve to be ranked pretty high?

Neglekt

(edited by Zodian.6597)

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Posted by: Lachanche.6859

Lachanche.6859

EU is even worse:

1st: wins:68 looses:46 win%:59.65%
2nd: wins:63 looses:16 win%:79.75%

2nd played in duo q with 3rd for quite a while and he was top 500 last season so his mmr is high. His expected win ratio is also high.
1st is playing solo and last season was at negative points (getting dishonorable at 0 points), his mmr is basically below ground and so is his expected win ratio.

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Posted by: SobeSoul.6910

SobeSoul.6910

59% is not below ground for solo queuing.

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Posted by: Lachanche.6859

Lachanche.6859

59% is not below ground for solo queuing.

That’s the public rating, it’s only for show. What really matters (and in this case started out very low) is the private rating that decides who you play against and what % you have, in theory, to win a given match.

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Posted by: SobeSoul.6910

SobeSoul.6910

That doesn’t matter. If you’re wining 59% of your matches you are bound to raise your MMR.

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Posted by: Lachanche.6859

Lachanche.6859

That doesn’t matter. If you’re wining 59% of your matches you are bound to raise your MMR.

And eventually it will match other players’ mmr and i will start to lose positions, however starting from far lower than many of them i could get on top with that relatively low win rate.

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Posted by: Flyphish.6398

Flyphish.6398

EU is even worse:

1st: wins:68 looses:46 win%:59.65%
2nd: wins:63 looses:16 win%:79.75%

What is a loose?

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Posted by: Jasher.6580

Jasher.6580

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Posted by: Royal.2693

Royal.2693

That doesn’t matter. If you’re wining 59% of your matches you are bound to raise your MMR.

Um actually, that is not always true. Top 100 people in previous ladder would actually lower their MMR if they only had 59% wins. So if they kept MMR exactly the same (which they most likely did) then 59% wins would make you stuck in average MMR