Guild Wars 2

Nope you concluded that. I guess you missed the people who agreed with that, and cannot account for anybody who read it and agreed with the statement.

Your opinion is… interesting

I and any sane person, of course. And I’m happy that in this thread it’s almost everyone.

I want to sleep. Bye-bye.

Lol this topic still alive?

Theory! jmatb is an A-net dev on a normal account trolling people who QQ because A-net is fed up with people being like “QQ I CAN’T PLAY MY ELE OR CAN’T FIND A WAY TO PLAY 2 WIN IN THIS META EVERYTHING ELSE IS OP PLZ NERF THEN PLZ BUFF ME”

Am I right? =D

But seriously, I don’t see a point to playing to win anymore? I enjoy playing to kill ppl >=D but if my team loses 400/500 and I have top score without trying and somehow get the most caps on my team /rofllol. No one cares much about the competitive scene other than try hards. What does winning give you internally other than “I won a 15 min match where I was sleep walking my way through, oh hey but that one stun warrior was fun to fight.” and in game you get, more crap you already have 6 billion of and a few glory points which people are farming anyways.

And no one cares about the E-sports push other than A-net since it’s not appealing to watch, so even if you were with an uber epic awesome team… Great, you get a slow clap from GLaDOS. Let me hold open the door for you, it’s the least I as a simple fan boy can do, I can’t compare to A-net who will hold back their entire game for you.

When the game finally gets equalized and diversity makes it so you have to actually work for your win even with meta builds, then a lot of these players are just gonna end up at the bottom of the well.

Same thing happened with Zerg rushing in original Starcraft before it was nerfed, it was easy to do and very effective. People could climb the ladder pretty fast. Then since they couldn’t actually play properly and the easy strategy was nerfed they ended up unable to play at all in the long run and saw their rank fall.

If I had to guess as to “Why people aren’t playing to win” is mostly because you get nothing substantial for winning. I’d presume the players are also playing for longevity, knowing that what they are playing now will be viable in the future when it wont just be easy mode. And the QQ is just because people want it now rather than later.

I’m luckily more tolerant and can win and enjoy even with less viable builds due to the meta. But I can sympathize with the people who feel like they are getting completely screwed.

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Yes, i didn’t say anythings about winning, thank you for realising that you were wrong.

Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol.

I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.

Did i miss something?

And even if i did, i’m here to show you the way how to become better. We already came to the conclusion that winning isn’t all what players need, and sometimes, they don’t need it at all, but still, they are winning. If you’re playing to win, it does not increase your chances to win against that players. We also concluded, that there is no point of winning in computer games at all. So, whats the point? Fun, of course. And we all agreed, that fun is subjective. For some people fun is just getting text “you win” in the middle of their screen , and some people want to actually play the game the way they want, and it doesn’t connect to their winrate. So, we concluded that this thread is pointless.

If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.

One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.

When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

Nah I’m not an Anet Dev and if I was I doubt they’d let any of them get away with calling out 75% of the forums LMAO

Thread’s still going because people are dealing with the truth about competitive games – Herman Edwards quote: “You play to win the game!”

Some people get it, like BurrTheKing, Chukree, Hackks, and Brew Pinch. Like I anticipated, I got flamed by a bunch of people who might have learned something from getting an objective view on competition, even though it made them mad. Maybe they didn’kittens okay if they don’t they’ll just be cannon fodder for me and others haha

Another quote: "The truth will set you free, but first it will kitten you off.” Gloria Steinem

Very well said, BurrTheKing btw thats the stuff winners are made of

jmatb.6307:

I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.

jmatb.6307:

Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol

I love this tryharding on such a casual simple game.

If you really want your imaginary e-fame, you should use your new found winning powers in dota 2 not a an auto attack game like this.

Some objective information about direct damage for some productive discussion about how to build better:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/37607-attack-vs-precision/#entry1464490

I just did some translation of this into PvP amulet to trait practical use:

If you take a Berserker Amulet w/ a Valkyrie Jewel, put 30 points into Crit Damage, all you need is 10 points into your first trait line to satisfy the ideal ratio of power and precision, with a surplus of about 200 precision actually. From there you can actually build defensively so that you can handle more abuse in 1v1s with 30 points into toughness, vit, and use whatever defensive runes you want to hold up in tougher situations…

I’ll check this out when I come back that was a really really interesting post.

I really can’t be overstated how correct this post is. The difference between high-level players and low-level players is high-level players learn to adapt, while low-level players usually whine without noting their mistakes. We absolutely should give constructive feedback and strive for a more balanced game, but complaining all day on the forums is usually the sign of a bad player.

Ya its a bunch of wasted energy. People that get so kitten about every little thing and get all personal about “their class” bring it on themselves.

Anyway, I can already tell there is going to be a metric ton of QQ coming up in the new patch. Here are some of my predictions for new builds that will make people rage:

- HGH Engi is back in a big, big way. Engi has an S on its chest for this patch cycle.

- Immob stacking is gonna really make people really mad. Venom share thief spreading Devourer’s to a Shatter Mesmer and Burst Ele? Good luck trying to survive that LOL

- MM Necro is gonna challenge Ranger for home node role. The sustain you can get from lifesteal, healing your minions with Death Shroud, the damage output… People are going to rage when they try to 1v1 that.

I am cautiously optimistic, but it’s hard not to be excited that Burst teams will have better tools to compete with. I was really mad at the Condi meta, but I can see that matchup being relatively with these tools available now.

BurrTheKing.8571:

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Yes, i didn’t say anythings about winning, thank you for realising that you were wrong.

Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol.

I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.

Did i miss something?

And even if i did, i’m here to show you the way how to become better. We already came to the conclusion that winning isn’t all what players need, and sometimes, they don’t need it at all, but still, they are winning. If you’re playing to win, it does not increase your chances to win against that players. We also concluded, that there is no point of winning in computer games at all. So, whats the point? Fun, of course. And we all agreed, that fun is subjective. For some people fun is just getting text “you win” in the middle of their screen , and some people want to actually play the game the way they want, and it doesn’t connect to their winrate. So, we concluded that this thread is pointless.

If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.

One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.

When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

But what if I don’t give a jack kitten about my team and just want to troll with my burst thief? Just because the game random number generator mixed me into same team with you, does not mean that I am your friend.
If you want to play with a team you can rely, then play teamq. Otherwise, welcome to the internets.

Master of Timespace.2548:

BurrTheKing.8571:

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Yes, i didn’t say anythings about winning, thank you for realising that you were wrong.

Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol.

I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.

Did i miss something?

And even if i did, i’m here to show you the way how to become better. We already came to the conclusion that winning isn’t all what players need, and sometimes, they don’t need it at all, but still, they are winning. If you’re playing to win, it does not increase your chances to win against that players. We also concluded, that there is no point of winning in computer games at all. So, whats the point? Fun, of course. And we all agreed, that fun is subjective. For some people fun is just getting text “you win” in the middle of their screen , and some people want to actually play the game the way they want, and it doesn’t connect to their winrate. So, we concluded that this thread is pointless.

If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.

One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.

When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

But what if I don’t give a jack kitten about my team and just want to troll with my burst thief? Just because the game random number generator mixed me into same team with you, does not mean that I am your friend.

He already answered that for you.

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

There’s nothing random about selecting “join ranked match”. And in fact, one could, and probably should, infer that a “ranked match” means you are supposed to “give a jack kitten”

jmatb.6307:

Then the veteran needs to adapt their play style to account for this new climate where someone can beat them if they don’t plan to counter it. If the new stuff is a hard counter, then that begs that response even further..

If there isn’t an easy or conclusive counter to something, then why aren’t these “skilled” and “intelligent” and “great” players taking advantage of it?

They are, but sometimes these things are so powerful that it no longer matters how good you were in the game. Eg, in my cycling example, it would be all the same how good cycler you were: your athelic strength would no longer be relevant when people would just use motors. A random fat nerd could beat the world champion after that change.

Sometimes these changes can also trivialise the game so much that its no longer possible to separate a pro and a good player. E.g. spirit ranger. there are no “pro spirit rangers”, just “good enough spirit rangers”. This is because the spec is so easy and simple that after a given point, you can no longer improve your gameplay. I mean, you can, but not so much that it’d hold any meaning or be noticeable.

There’s nothing random about selecting “join ranked match”. And in fact, one could, and probably should, infer that a “ranked match” means you are supposed to “give a jack kitten”

But what if I still just don’t? I mean, I do not. At least not until they add some good reason to win.

Master of Timespace.2548:

There’s nothing random about selecting “join ranked match”. And in fact, one could, and probably should, infer that a “ranked match” means you are supposed to “give a jack kitten”

But what if I still just don’t? I mean, I do not. At least not until they add some good reason to win.

I’ll quote it again so you can re-read it and figure it out for yourself

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

doesn’t sound like PvP is the place for you.

BurrTheKing.8571:

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Yes, i didn’t say anythings about winning, thank you for realising that you were wrong.

Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol.

I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.

Did i miss something?

And even if i did, i’m here to show you the way how to become better. We already came to the conclusion that winning isn’t all what players need, and sometimes, they don’t need it at all, but still, they are winning. If you’re playing to win, it does not increase your chances to win against that players. We also concluded, that there is no point of winning in computer games at all. So, whats the point? Fun, of course. And we all agreed, that fun is subjective. For some people fun is just getting text “you win” in the middle of their screen , and some people want to actually play the game the way they want, and it doesn’t connect to their winrate. So, we concluded that this thread is pointless.

If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.

One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.

When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

Well, some people might run a build they think it’s good.

However, hotjoin is casual mode.

Solo queue is CASUL mode.XD

And the metric ton of QQ has landed…

I think once people get over the fact that they actually did what they said they would, shave not make wholesale changes, they’ll see that the immob stacking makes a huge difference

BurrTheKing.8571:

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Yes, i didn’t say anythings about winning, thank you for realising that you were wrong.

Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol.

I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.

Did i miss something?

And even if i did, i’m here to show you the way how to become better. We already came to the conclusion that winning isn’t all what players need, and sometimes, they don’t need it at all, but still, they are winning. If you’re playing to win, it does not increase your chances to win against that players. We also concluded, that there is no point of winning in computer games at all. So, whats the point? Fun, of course. And we all agreed, that fun is subjective. For some people fun is just getting text “you win” in the middle of their screen , and some people want to actually play the game the way they want, and it doesn’t connect to their winrate. So, we concluded that this thread is pointless.

If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.

One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.

When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.

And if my skill allows me to not use meta builds and still be pretty effective? What then? What if the difference between me playing easy meta build and me playing my “for fun” build is like 5% winrate? Why should I sacrifice all of my fun to increase chances of my team to win by 1%?

BurrTheKing.8571:

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

BurrTheKing.8571:

who want to only have fun

If you’re playing this game not only for fun and still don’t earn real money for it – then you’re a masochist.

And what if I’m not the one who have fun only when I “run silly builds”? What if I enjoy playing a team game where people rely on each other using my “for fun” but still not “silly” build? Hotjoin and duels are definitely bad places for me. Soloq is not bad, but I prefer to join team tournaments even if I have no party (this is also because of skyhammer in soloq, even if it will be changed, i will not play it). You can curse me for that, yes. But still, my winrate is pretty high, and I’m pretty effective. I also talk with my team and listen to them.

The real QQ comes from those who realise that if cheesy build will be nerfed, there will be no place for them in this game anymore. Oh, wait, may be they will be useful in wvwvw.

Keep in mind I’m not saying copy and paste the latest meta build, but rather learning the game and picking what is going to give you the best chance to win.

For example, I played a match earlier against all burst classes – mesmers, thieves, and warriors. I got on my ele and made the old D/D perma sustain build and nobody could kill me 1v1.

You don’t have to run one build just because people say its good – you have to think about when the best time to use a build is and adjust…

People are living up to the silliness and completely nonsensical knee jerk QQ I sadly anticipated.

Tip for the angry and self pitying: take a big drink of water, think about something else for a couple hours, then take a look at immobs and warriors objectively and develop strategies.

Examples:

Do I need to bring condition cleansing instead of a second DPS utility slot?

Do I need to bring my own immob(s) to take advantage of this new situation?

Can I 1v1 a mega-sustain warrior? If not, then would it make more sense to just abandon the point he’s on and fight his other teammates?

What are the most likely builds the other team is running? Does my build help my team tilt the balance of the fight in our favor or hurt it?

CutePicsHunter.7430:

BurrTheKing.8571:

CutePicsHunter.7430:

snip

snip

snip

snip

If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.

One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.

When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.

And if my skill allows me to not use meta builds and still be pretty effective? What then? What if the difference between me playing easy meta build and me playing my “for fun” build is like 5% winrate? Why should I sacrifice all of my fun to increase chances of my team to win by 1%?

BurrTheKing.8571:

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

BurrTheKing.8571:

who want to only have fun

If you’re playing this game not only for fun and still don’t earn real money for it – then you’re a masochist.

And what if I’m not the one who have fun only when I “run silly builds”? What if I enjoy playing a team game where people rely on each other using my “for fun” but still not “silly” build? Hotjoin and duels are definitely bad places for me. Soloq is not bad, but I prefer to join team tournaments even if I have no party (this is also because of skyhammer in soloq, even if it will be changed, i will not play it). You can curse me for that, yes. But still, my winrate is pretty high, and I’m pretty effective. I also talk with my team and listen to them.

The real QQ comes from those who realise that if cheesy build will be nerfed, there will be no place for them in this game anymore. Oh, wait, may be they will be useful in wvwvw.

If your skill allows you to use non-meta builds and still be effective, you are still lowering your overall effectiveness if another build is objectively superior.

My idea of fun involves winning, and while other may have different objectives, it doesn’t change that the goal of SoloQ is to win. If your idea of fun does not include winning, then don’t play a game mode where the main goal is to win.

I’m not saying that you can’t, say, make a silly team of 5 Eles with a group of friends in TPvP. You aren’t really hurting anybody by doing that, you aren’t screwing teammates over because their in on it. The enemy might be a bit bummed out that they aren’t getting a close fight out of it but fighting joke teams can be enjoyable and chances are they’ll win.

When I play SoloQ I want to win, so if someone joins with a crappy joke build for “fun,” chances are we’re going to lose. It’s a game mode that is supposed to be taken more seriously than hotjoin. To compare it to Counterstrike:GO, in the casual modes you’ll see people goofing off all the time. No reasonable person gets all that upset by it because losing doesn’t really screw people over, it’s casual. I can buy a crappy MAC 10 and go around spraying all day and most will just find it funny. However, if you join a competitive match by yourself and get paired up with 4 guys who are out to win and I buy a MAC 10 even when I have the $ for a better weapon just because it’s “fun” you’re majorly screwing those guys over.

You wouldn’t intentionally screw your team over in a competitive sport, so why would you do it in a competitive video game?

P.S, regardless of your personal feelings about the game; SoloQ is still technically a competitive game mode and should be treated as such.

hackks.3687:

Master of Timespace.2548:

There’s nothing random about selecting “join ranked match”. And in fact, one could, and probably should, infer that a “ranked match” means you are supposed to “give a jack kitten”

But what if I still just don’t? I mean, I do not. At least not until they add some good reason to win.

I’ll quote it again so you can re-read it and figure it out for yourself

My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.

doesn’t sound like PvP is the place for you.

I don’t think that you understand. I might for example want to see if my silly experimental build can still win me soloq games. I can’t do this by doing hot zerg. I also don’t bother when I can just do soloq. Like, whos stopping me?

When I play SoloQ I want to win, so if someone joins with a crappy joke build for “fun,” chances are we’re going to lose.

Do teamq. It doesn’t matter a flying kitten what you want or what is the idea of soloq. It’s the internets, people do what they please because they can.
If soloq is intented to be competitive, then it’s design is fundamentally flawled. You can’t have these competitive fights in a random setup because most of these players simply do not care who wins. I know I don’t.

Very well put.

Troll teams are funny to do. I was laughing my kitten off when they streamed the kamikaze ele build on GW2PVPTV.

But the goal of PvP is to win, not lose or “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheese” or whatever other crap scrubs think of

You wouldn’t intentionally screw your team over in a competitive sport, so why would you do it in a competitive video game?

Because in sports there are good rewards for winning and because I care and respect my team. In gw2 soloq however, there are no rewards for winning and one plays with complete strangers.
Also, it’s common for pro hockey players to jepordise victory simply because the can’t stand an opposing player.

But the goal of PvP is to win, not lose or “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheese” or whatever other crap scrubs think of

If you truly think that way, then you should use all the hacks and cheats avaible. The point of pvp is to win, not to “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheat”, right? Well, DDOSing the voice coms of the opposing team has been a viable strategy since dawn of online gaming.

jmatb.6307:

People are living up to the silliness and completely nonsensical knee jerk QQ I sadly anticipated.

Tip for the angry and self pitying: take a big drink of water, think about something else for a couple hours, then take a look at immobs and warriors objectively and develop strategies.

Examples:

Do I need to bring condition cleansing instead of a second DPS utility slot?

Do I need to bring my own immob(s) to take advantage of this new situation?

Can I 1v1 a mega-sustain warrior? If not, then would it make more sense to just abandon the point he’s on and fight his other teammates?

What are the most likely builds the other team is running? Does my build help my team tilt the balance of the fight in our favor or hurt it?

the ire and anger that has been raised since the patch has more to do with the direction of the game itself than the actual balance changes made.

before you can “play to win”, you have to have a game worth playing

the changes to immob stacking was a dumbing down of the game – reflected by the lead class-balance Dev’s explanation of the change in the patch preview: “… it just kinda felt awkward by not stacking…” as he spammed an immob skill…

ANet’s stance of balancing around acknowledged “bugs” is a disreputable approach to game development.

Add to that the lack of rewards, lack of functioning leader boards, the ability to farm ranks rather than earn them, and it’s pretty clear to any PvPer this game is not moving is a positive direction, made doubly frustrating because at one point it had a lot of positive momentum.

So what you’re chalking up as “Scrub QQ” is in fact warranted concern for a game that has lost almost all it’s potential as well as any worthwhile reason for a player to be concerned about “playing to win”.

tl;dr – wrong argument for the wrong conversation.

^ I’ll take this for five thousand.
If we’re talking about it being weird for immobilize not to stack, is Stun stacking next?
CC doesn’t stack which means for full benefit of multiple stuns you co-ordinate it, to get the most duration out of it. This change just decreased co-ordination in the game, and not on some micro level like if cripple never stacked and they made it stack, we’re talking far more potent CC then that. The kind you want to be powerful but reach it’s greatest potential when used in unison, not thrown out. Now It’s still at it’s strongest the vast majority of the time when co-ordinated, but is now even more effective than normal when it is now, and why was that change made? Immobilizes stacking was not an issue of casual appeal.

Whiners will whine. No, I don’t like immob stacking. I’m not going to have a kittening hissy fit about it though, I’m going to adapt and continue having fun.

When Anet nerfs my favorite pve builds, to balance spvp it becomes a problem. It means one build less to enjoy the game. It means less content. And it means ‘fear’. Fear for more incoming nerfs, so much nerfs a profession is in the end useless.

-

I’m the kinda guy who takes my melee out when I see my opponent do so in TF2, and uses my fists in Dark Souls if I see someone else using their fists.

If winning is so important to you that you’re gonna take your rawket lawnchair back out, or swap to a rapier and do a Hornet Ring roll backstab, that’s fine – I shouldn’t expect that others adhere to my unspoken rules of combat.
When I encounter someone who pays along, though, it’s a lot more fun for me than winning could ever be.

Chaosky.5276:

I’m the kinda guy who takes my melee out when I see my opponent do so in TF2, and uses my fists in Dark Souls if I see someone else using their fists.

If winning is so important to you that you’re gonna take your rawket lawnchair back out, or swap to a rapier and do a Hornet Ring roll backstab, that’s fine – I shouldn’t expect that others adhere to my unspoken rules of combat.
When I encounter someone who pays along, though, it’s a lot more fun for me than winning could ever be.

Interesting. I am the opposite. If my opponent ‘plays down’, I’m left disappointed, win or lose, at missing out on a match where each participant is giving it his best shot.

Losing to someone who isn’t using every tool at his disposal is frustrating, in an ‘I can beat you with one hand tied behind my back’ kind of way, and beating someone who isn’t using every tool at his disposal is just as frustrating, in a ‘you will never know what the outcome would have been if I was trying my best’ kind of way.

I find it really bad mannered when anyone plays at less than 100%. For those reasons and for denying their opponents the opportunity to really push themselves past that autopilot stage and find out if they can still pull out a win in adverse circumstances.

If I find myself in a disadvantageous situation, my opponent presses his advantage, and I still win, now that is fun.

Not calling you out here, but I often find it kind of timid too. ’I’m afraid of giving it everything and still losing, so I’m not going to give it everything. That way I can tell myself that’s why I lost if I do happen to lose’. That’s the kind of mentality that takes winning far too seriously in my opinion. The one whose ego is so affected by losses that they start preparing their excuses before the game even starts.

Master of Timespace.2548:

You wouldn’t intentionally screw your team over in a competitive sport, so why would you do it in a competitive video game?

Because in sports there are good rewards for winning and because I care and respect my team. In gw2 soloq however, there are no rewards for winning and one plays with complete strangers.
Also, it’s common for pro hockey players to jepordise victory simply because the can’t stand an opposing player.

But the goal of PvP is to win, not lose or “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheese” or whatever other crap scrubs think of

If you truly think that way, then you should use all the hacks and cheats avaible. The point of pvp is to win, not to “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheat”, right? Well, DDOSing the voice coms of the opposing team has been a viable strategy since dawn of online gaming.

Your example of hacking people’s communications and using extreme exploits is a silly one because winning by violating an End User Agreement is stupid. They’ll catch you and you’ll get banned pretty much every time, especially if the stakes are high.

This post has been brough to you by the publishers of “Playing to Win” by David Sirlin.

hackks.3687:

jmatb.6307:

People are living up to the silliness and completely nonsensical knee jerk QQ I sadly anticipated.

Tip for the angry and self pitying: take a big drink of water, think about something else for a couple hours, then take a look at immobs and warriors objectively and develop strategies.

Examples:

Do I need to bring condition cleansing instead of a second DPS utility slot?

Do I need to bring my own immob(s) to take advantage of this new situation?

Can I 1v1 a mega-sustain warrior? If not, then would it make more sense to just abandon the point he’s on and fight his other teammates?

What are the most likely builds the other team is running? Does my build help my team tilt the balance of the fight in our favor or hurt it?

the ire and anger that has been raised since the patch has more to do with the direction of the game itself than the actual balance changes made.

before you can “play to win”, you have to have a game worth playing

the changes to immob stacking was a dumbing down of the game – reflected by the lead class-balance Dev’s explanation of the change in the patch preview: “… it just kinda felt awkward by not stacking…” as he spammed an immob skill…

ANet’s stance of balancing around acknowledged “bugs” is a disreputable approach to game development.

Add to that the lack of rewards, lack of functioning leader boards, the ability to farm ranks rather than earn them, and it’s pretty clear to any PvPer this game is not moving is a positive direction, made doubly frustrating because at one point it had a lot of positive momentum.

So what you’re chalking up as “Scrub QQ” is in fact warranted concern for a game that has lost almost all it’s potential as well as any worthwhile reason for a player to be concerned about “playing to win”.

tl;dr – wrong argument for the wrong conversation.

Okay let’s say all that is true and there is little incentive to play, etc. etc.

If people drop the game, leave, and there is no competitive scene at all, then Anet will see that there are consequences for not putting the appropriate time and effort into the game mode.

It’s just like an OP build: if everyone is running it, people can’t counter it, and it’s on every competitive team on the higher MMR side they will nerf it so that the # of options are freed up.

Whining doesn’t help anybody. It’s a waste of time to read, and a waste of time to do. Either play as competitively as you can, or just find something else to play.

I really enjoy SWTOR’s PvE and leveling, much more so than GW2’s. There is full voice acting, it’s Star Wars, and the game system is fun. I also enjoy Dota 2, even though the games take way too long to complete for my tastes. I’m a student, so I don’t have all the time in the world to play that game with.

When I log into GW2, I play PvP and I play to win. It’s fun to me and all the whining on the forum and in the community will not change that. I want to share that experience with people by giving them some tough love

jmatb.6307:

Master of Timespace.2548:

You wouldn’t intentionally screw your team over in a competitive sport, so why would you do it in a competitive video game?

Because in sports there are good rewards for winning and because I care and respect my team. In gw2 soloq however, there are no rewards for winning and one plays with complete strangers.
Also, it’s common for pro hockey players to jepordise victory simply because the can’t stand an opposing player.

But the goal of PvP is to win, not lose or “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheese” or whatever other crap scrubs think of

If you truly think that way, then you should use all the hacks and cheats avaible. The point of pvp is to win, not to “play with honor and lose knowing you didn’t cheat”, right? Well, DDOSing the voice coms of the opposing team has been a viable strategy since dawn of online gaming.

Your example of hacking people’s communications and using extreme exploits is a silly one because winning by violating an End User Agreement is stupid. They’ll catch you and you’ll get banned pretty much every time, especially if the stakes are high.

You actually wont get caught. This game doesn’t have anti cheat system and so cheating is everyday thing in WvW. Hell, you have been able to res through doors since day 1. If winning is all you want, then you shouldn’t hesitate using this tactic*, but if you want to have fun, then you probably should not use it.It’s the same thing with op cheese builds: they give you advantage, but probably make the game less interesting.
If you truly play to win, then from a game theoretic point of view, there is no reason not to break rules whenever the risk vs. reward ratio is good enough. It’s still lame and takes the fun out of the game – exact same thing as with abusing cheese builds.

This isn’t WvW we’re talking about though…

jmatb.6307:

This isn’t WvW we’re talking about though…

Same ideas apply though. For example, by this “play to win” logic, one should have abused the hell out of the mesmer fall trait bug.

I wasn’t really paying attention to it, until right before the hotfix came out.

I did get one pink nuke on a teamfight in Khylo though it was funny as hell lol

jmatb.6307:

I wasn’t really paying attention to it, until right before the hotfix came out.

I did get one pink nuke on a teamfight in Khylo though it was funny as hell lol

Aye it was xD

Master of Timespace.2548:

jmatb.6307:

This isn’t WvW we’re talking about though…

Same ideas apply though. For example, by this “play to win” logic, one should have abused the hell out of the mesmer fall trait bug.

People did for the duration it was there, fairly amusing actually.

It’s actually a good thing they did because it forces a faster response.

I think its the Denial that the Dev’s are showing that has enraged people. They put out a balancing patch that has insigificant changes in it for most classes and a buff to the games strongest class. A patch that does nothing to improve the game at all. It contains no balance or addresses any real issues.

Everyone realises they only have a few programers working on the game. Anet seems to devote more programming hours to Warrior than the other classes combined. This suggests unfairness and a general lack of regard for the bulk of the player base. Its like if you went out for dinner and the chef spent an hour preparing a meal for the table beside you and served you up some reheated left overs. You would likely be upset. Its pretty much the same thing.

This could be a good spvp game with the right balancing. But its not. Some people do enjoy it, but most do their daily and log. Therefore its not getting the following or increased playerbase it needs.

Maybe we need a change of direction in the balancing team. They currently are not listening to or working for the player base at all.

We don’t know exactly who they have working where so how can we make that assumption?

Also, keep in mind what happens in a for profit company. They are always going to put their priority on low cost means to raise revenue. The PvE system was, as the dev posts hint at, much further along than the PvP one. There are more people who play PvE than PvP.

If you were in charge of Anet where would you put the resources of more people on teams, programmers, etc.?

Objective and logical decision making would lead you to the PvE side because you don’t want to alienate the majority of your playerbase or deny yourself the means to make money off of their specific desires.

If they do have a few people working on PvP as opposed to a full team, then it makes sense: slow and steady improvement to a less popular game system makes more sense than throwing everything at it and hoping for the flood of new players that would have to justify that decision.

If anything your QQ makes for bad press when they do these events, and makes it harder to get the players not easier, and if there aren’t a lot of players then there is no economic reason to justify spending more time on it than the lowest you can get away with.

If people leave, then it’s fine – you lose a few of the players, but over time you know you’re going to make steady improvements to the game mode and potentially bring them back or bring in new players that don’t flood your forums with QQ. In the meantime, you’re making pure economic profits from your strongest playerbase and continuing to grow where it matters the most.

Don’t take this like I’m an economist or something – I actually despise them and think they’re sociopaths. But this is the world we live in folks – quality only matters if it’s profitable.

You don’t live in a world where businesses try to make the highest quality product as the only priority…

Master of Timespace.2548:

jmatb.6307:

This isn’t WvW we’re talking about though…

Same ideas apply though. For example, by this “play to win” logic, one should have abused the hell out of the mesmer fall trait bug.

There are a couple of schools of thought on this. The one I like is that you should always be playing the game as well as you can, but exploits don’t fall within the game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

“Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.”

The other is that the more something gets exploited, the faster it gets fixed. Rather than a few bad eggs taking advantage, everyone should, keeping the playing field level even if it means the game is broken for a while, because it results in a faster fix. In this way people who are willing to exploit never gain an advantage over those who would prefer not to.

Ya the fact that people still “run what they want to run” gives a much less clear picture of what is unbalanced or balanced.

The MLG graph some people think is somehow objective truth about the metagame shows that every class was brought to the last tournament except one. 7 out of 8 is almost perfect representation…

The zerg rush example is exactly what ppl in this game ought to do if they want to get something nerfed. Just run what’s the best!

“All that matters, and all that ever will matter in a competitive game is who wins and who loses.” I cannot disagree with this statement, however, maybe 90% of the population of GW2 plays for FUN. If you think that winning no matter what is fun, that’s your opinion. Your post is aggressive and doesn’t take in perspective other gamers’ thoughts. Your elitists arguments makes you a winning ore instead of a QQing scrub. What you see as QQing is what other people see as a barrier to their fun, which makes them quit, and that’s bad for a game. I believe that the players have the right to speak their mind for anyone to sees as long as it’s done properly. If you dislike seeing what you call “QQing” posts, then your free to avoid the forums where they are posted.

FowS.1684:

“All that matters, and all that ever will matter in a competitive game is who wins and who loses.” I cannot disagree with this statement, however, maybe 90% of the population of GW2 plays for FUN. If you think that winning no matter what is fun, that’s your opinion. Your post is aggressive and doesn’t take in perspective other gamers’ thoughts. Your elitists arguments makes you a winning ore instead of a QQing scrub. What you see as QQing is what other people see as a barrier to their fun, which makes them quit, and that’s bad for a game. I believe that the players have the right to speak their mind for anyone to sees as long as it’s done properly. If you dislike seeing what you call “QQing” posts, then your free to avoid the forums where they are posted.

However balance complaints don’t fit that category.

Firstly, each of us can only provide balance feedback relative to our own ability (remember people complaining about 100b? or better yet, deathblossom spam?). Someone may find an ability OP, but the fix is in fact for them to learn to deal with it instead of changing the whole game because they’re a bit behind the curve. Often, said ability is in fact be extremely easy to deal with. Once they learn the trick, the problem no longer exists. A more recent example would be ‘condi meta’ complaints when warriors were always in the wings waiting to stomp all over it.

Plus, a lot of the time, complaints are just kneejerk reactions. Something changes, someone loses to someone who uses the changed ability, they blame the change, when in fact they may have simply been outplayed.

Secondly, a game doesn’t need to be balanced to be fun if winning isn’t your goal. The core of a balance complaint is rooted in the fact that someone feels it is reducing their chance to have an equal shot at winning. Anyone who makes balance complaints is by definition playing to win. To the extent that they’ll take it out of the game and play the forum metagame in the hope that it will improve their chance of winning in the actual game.

Unless they’re pointing out something they find overpowered about the profession they spend most of their pvp time on, or underpowered about a profession they never play. Those are the only kind of complaints that hold any real weight, and they do so for a couple of different reasons.

jmatb.6307:

I highly recommend reading “Playing to Win” by David Sirlin, which is free to read on sirlin.net. You will probably get mad if you read this and you are not winning consistently against skilled players, ranked highly in solo queue or tPvP, etc. I sure as hell did. I had to realize that I was, in fact, objectively, without a shadow of a doubt a scrub.

If you would have read his book you would know that he argues that any game that is frequently updated or changed cannot be competitive.

Nobody is 100% correct in everything they say. If that were true, then League of Legends, Dota 2, and Starcraft 2 would not be competitive games… see how that argument falls apart?

Mammoth you’re nailing it on the head. People need perspective when they feel something is overpowered, not dev “support” with nerfs to stuff they never really understood to begin with.

I feel like the Devs really want us as players to be the ones that decide what the meta is, but many on the forums just want some sort of miracle patch that will make the meta for us. So long as there are viable counters, having something that is very strong can actually help keep the game fresh. It keeps it from becoming like chess where there’s only so many viable moves and you don’t see any real innovation.

I still maintain that I’m mostly pleased with the current PvP balance, but some classes need to be buffed to the point were they can fit into different roles. An example would be making Ele able to bunker on par with Guardian so that you have a choice who to bring as a mid bunker.

That and they want the devs to translate all their demands into one single solution that really doesn’t exist.

High survival and damage builds are the most difficult to deal with 1v1, but isn’t the point of a team-based game to get numbers advantages and then systematically wipe out the team by superior deployment?

I was doing team queues yesterday and while my Clerics Warrior build was pretty much impossible for a very good Ranger to kill, it can’t stand up to 3 people that can afford to push the point I was on because they had two points already.

Maximum trolling