Guild Wars 2

This post is about something I’ve been advocating for since the launch of gw2: Automated Tournaments (a la gw1). I made a thread on reddit about it, but figured I’d post it here too.

What

For those unaware of how those worked: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Automated_tournament

Basically, at set times throughout the day registration opens up for a swiss-style tournament (teams only – no soloq) with rewards based on your placement.

I decided to make this post because Grouch made a comment on a thread stating that they might try out a solo/duo q but a premade queue isn’t feasible based on their data (not enough teams queue). Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Let-s-do-away-with-forced-50-50-match-making/page/2#post6304191

Why Automated Tournaments

Gw2’s combat and the conquest format are inherently team-based. There are three points to capture and the combat doesn’t allow for a hard-carry (unless the gap in skill level is so huge that we’re basically talking about Helseth against 5 players that just picked up the game).

It’s a shame that throughout the existence of gw2’ pvp we’ve had basically no existing//succesful competitive team-based scene. At launch we did have the paid tournaments (later free) which were team-based.

Why did the in-game (paid/free) tournaments fail?

The pvp infrastructure was very barebone back then. And there were a lot of complaints about needing a team to play. The industry these days require your game to have a solo-play option. Every game offers it these days. It’s a fair sentiment. A lot of people don’t want to wait around to find a team nor want to play in a team. It often comes with certain requirements (VoiP, rank requirements, or something else entirely). You can compare it with the requirements that people put up when pugging raids. The majority just wants to play without the hassle. And that’s probably why Anet catered to solo-play and sadly ditched the whole idea.

So why do it now?

We almost have a complete competitive infrastructure for the solo-player. We just need a few adjustements to how the system works so that it becomes less-grindy and more skill-based. It doesn’t require many overhauls, it just requires some balls from Anet. But I’m not discussing solo-play here.

Granted everything falls into place on the solo-side, Anet should work on the team-side. Again, I reiterate that conquest and gw2’s combat implies team-play. I think a lot of people who played as a team (guildies, pugs, etc.) can attest to the fact that it’s a whole lot more fun.

You might think: “ok, why not just make a premade league and be done with it?” Well, sadly the current pvp population/mentality doesn’t support it. Grouch said it himself in the quote: “We probably wouldn’t run a premade-only arena at the same time as there’s not enough 5-mans actively q’ing during a season to make the queue times reasonable.”
People have no reason whatsoever to play in a team. There is absolutely no incentive nor fun, except the occasional pug-stomp.

And that’s where Automated Tournaments come into play. They only run at certain times during the day and are team-play only. It’s a format that can scale up very well (like it did in gw1). But it doesn’t require teams queueing at every single point during the day.
Slap some exclusive rewards on it (don’t hate me Reddit) and voila. In an ideal world I’d like to see an observer mode accompanied with it, which features said AT matches. But I might be asking for too much here.

Again for those who didn’t play gw1: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Observer_mode

Tl;DR: Anet likes esports (since gw1). Helseth says esports is the pvp endgame. Well then I say give us Automated Tournaments so that we finally have both a competitive soloplay (if they make the correct changes) and a competitive teamplay infrastructure. From casual —> casual-competitive --> competitive —> esports. For the last few years we’ve only had: casual + “esports”.

Any thoughts?

The truth is tough. Anet is avoiding it to satisfy the pvp rewards system and make everyone feel legendary. It is an effective short term form of marketing.

Pvp realistically needs to run the pip system like diamond and ruby for all divisions without two elements. No more comback pips. No more winstreak pips as extra pip gain.

The backpack piece should be gained after x amount of games or crossing x amount of divisions. This way it can be grinded or gained by experienced players.

The handing out of extra pips is what makes divisions meaningless. Everyone will climb as long as they play. I am not the only player who plays random builds treating ranked like causal play knowing i will have a forced 50/50 win rate and will gain extra pips somewhere along the line. Much of the community plays tournys like normal que

1. Remove extra pip gain
2. Make divisions like ruby or diamond.(Can lose pips can lose tiers)
3. Each new season cause players to fall one division or a few tiers depending on their mmr.
4. Make rewards tied to rank up or matches played so anyone who works can get their backpack piece.

In anycase, this change will end mmr tanking for good and make a ruby really better than a sapphire unlike currently. Furthermore, anyone who gets into legendary would literally be amazing players at this point allowing them to get recognition with their gameplay and streams. This would expand the esports scene and everyone is getting rewards so everyone is happy.

Zelulose.8695:

The truth is tough. Anet is avoiding it to satisfy the pvp rewards system and make everyone feel legendary. It is an effective short term form of marketing.

Pvp realistically needs to run the pip system like diamond and ruby for all divisions without two elements. No more comback pips. No more winstreak pips as extra pip gain.

The backpack piece should be gained after x amount of games or crossing x amount of divisions. This way it can be grinded or gained by experienced players.

The handing out of extra pips is what makes divisions meaningless. Everyone will climb as long as they play. I am not the only player who plays random builds treating ranked like causal play knowing i will have a forced 50/50 win rate and will gain extra pips somewhere along the line. Much of the community plays tournys like normal que

1. Remove extra pip gain
2. Make divisions like ruby or diamond.(Can lose pips can lose tiers)
3. Each new season cause players to fall one division or a few tiers depending on their mmr.
4. Make rewards tied to rank up or matches played so anyone who works can get their backpack piece.

In anycase, this change will end mmr tanking for good and make a ruby really better than a sapphire unlike currently. Furthermore, anyone who gets into legendary would literally be amazing players at this point allowing them to get recognition with their gameplay and streams. This would expand the esports scene and everyone is getting rewards so everyone is happy.

This all only works if forced 50% win rate goes away.

Having played league of legends I would say it needs the 50% win rate. If that is removed than rank again wont matter. You have to beat the system aka win more than you lose to be a better player than your division. Right now it is random because amber level players can grind into legendary but with the suggested changes, if you are a good player you will carry yourself out of amber as long as all the amber level players are stuck there.

I say this because I stopped trying around ruby and played ranked like it is casuals. I have above a 50% win rate very slightly “Not trying” and ranked to diamond. I just wanted so see how strong the 50/50 win rate was and I confirmed I don’t have to do more than long tourny for cash currently as I will rank up eventually.

Zelulose.8695:

Having played league of legends I would say it needs the 50% win rate. If that is removed than rank again wont matter. You have to beat the system aka win more than you lose to be a better player than your division. Right now it is random because amber level players can grind into legendary but with the suggested changes, if you are a good player you will carry yourself out of amber as long as all the amber level players are stuck there.

I say this because I stopped trying around ruby and played ranked like it is casuals. I have above a 50% win rate very slightly “Not trying” and ranked to diamond. I just wanted so see how strong the 50/50 win rate was and I confirmed I don’t have to do more than long tourny for cash currently as I will rank up eventually.

I am sorry but you actually defend the system that punishes players for winning matches and gives them potatoes for teammates and pro league players as enemy? Are you serious? LoL doesn’t work like that btw. In LoL you win game – you get better teammates and better enemies. In GW2 you win game – you get worse teammates and better enemies.

This system is main reason why we have bad/average player in divisions, where they don’t belong on first place. This is a team game, not carry-the-bads game.

True this needs to be fixed. Team mates and enemies should get better. I am just saying right now it seems like we get worse enemies as we rank up because low mmr players are getting to legendary. If ruby mmr players are in ruby then the current 50% win rate would do what you describe in LoL When you rank from ruby you start facing diamonds. It is the free pips that make the current 50% winrate look bad. and force us to play with rubies that are really amber.

Welp…. Way to ignore the entire post, lol.

I’m not talking about soloplay. Those issues have tons of threads and comments already.
I’m talking about a system for teams (be it guilds, be it pugs). But I guess this just goes to show that the past 4 years have created the ultimate casual soloplay fest. Which nor the combat nor the gamemode (ie. conquest) at its core is meant for.

Well I am a 1 vs 1 tournament supporter using the ranking system similar to team ranked. Anet has the rare opportunity to make this the first 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 esport. They would attract so many players if they did this it isn’t even funny. Ranked 1 vs 1 would be revolutionary in mmorpg especially if they work out 5 vs 5. Both both ranked progression 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 they would stand above most pvp games out right now.

Zelulose.8695:

Well I am a 1 vs 1 tournament supporter using the ranking system similar to team ranked. Anet has the rare opportunity to make this the first 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 esport. They would attract so many players if they did this it isn’t even funny. Ranked 1 vs 1 would be revolutionary in mmorpg especially if they work out 5 vs 5. Both both ranked progression 1 vs 1 and 5 vs 5 they would stand above most pvp games out right now.

Problem with that is balance. The game is balanced around 5v5. Not 1v1. Look at all the rules 1v1 tournaments have to put out in order to create somewhat interesting matchups.

Guys stay on topic :P . Butch was talking about automated tournament for conquest or maybe stronghold, let’s discuss that instead of 1v1s or the league system.

This is a very good idea. I think Anet is sort of going in that direction, with the grouping system in the end of the game. One of the main problem I’ve had with GW2 since I started playing is that soloq in this game seems to be more prevalent than in any other team game I played, so I think Anet understand they need to do something to incentivize players to team up, especially if they want to develop their competitive scene.

I think it will be hard to get started in the beginning, but with a combination of in-game advertisement for the tournaments, good rewards for the winning teams, and achievements and small rewards for teams that participate regularly, something like this could get popular. I hope they follow your suggestion, and I’m hopeful. After all, they did it in GW1, and they know it worked there.

I like the idea of the automated tournaments (I enjoyed them a lot in GW1). It will encourage the formation of new teams to play into those tournaments.
I prefer to play a 5 team vs 5 team match than a 5 random vs 5 random match.

From my experience in GW1 and GW2 we will need to add some modifications to the original system but it could work almost for sure, some of the modifications that come to my mind are:

- More than 3 tournaments at day (8 hours between tournaments was so big, so if you miss one just for a few minutes you will not be able to play one till 8 hours later. Maybe every hour can have a tournament (anet take your data and make the numbers).

- Teams should have dishonor, not joining the tournament or not playing it entirely should end with a team dishonor (I do not mean dishonor for every player, A team should have it’s own dishonor, not allowing them to join a tournament for some period, or not having rewards for the next tournament).

- One player cannot be in more than one team joining the tournament.

- Stacking classes should not be allowed (Don’t know how to implement it, but it will make games more interesting).

- Team ladder should score according to the tournament performance of a team instead ranked matches (so you cannot take score for winning a 5 random man team in ranked match).

- Maps for the games should have a predefined order (like GW1).

- Maybe then we should have a limit of 2-3 teams per account to avoid abusive behaviours.

Yes please reintroduce Skill based Leaderboard and automated tournaments.

Xiaka.2814:

- Stacking classes should not be allowed (Don’t know how to implement it, but it will make games more interesting).

It would actually be easier to do in tournaments than in regular queue. Just don’t let the team join the game until they have characters of different professions. Then, don’t allow pre-game swaps: since you’re queuing as a team your composition should be on point already.