Guild Wars 2

Why a condi every second? That is literally insane. And over 75% health will be easy to maintain for a class with perma prot, regen, vigor and a ton of healing.

I dont understand why the trait has to be so blatently overpowered. It should be a condi every 3 seconds over 75%, or at least every 2 seconds.

I would strongly reconsider making diamond skin so broken

I know right, even people think’s will be better lol ! I Mean 75% health is just to good

Rickster.8752:

Why a condi every second? That is literally insane. And over 75% health will be easy to maintain for a class with perma prot, regen, vigor and a ton of healing.

I dont understand why the trait has to be so blatently overpowered. It should be a condi every 3 seconds over 75%, or at least every 2 seconds.

I would strongly reconsider making diamond skin so broken

That’s actually weaker than it was before (only viper revs were able to go through). If you are playing a profession with a access to a large amount of condis (like necromancer) you’ll barely be affected, if you are playing something like a burn guard you’ll have a hard time.

3 condi per 10 seconds is another grandmaster trait. on a super long range class
3 condi per 10 seconds (1 per 3) but only above 75% health, on a mostly short range class with the lowest base defenses in the game? that would be hilariously terrible

reikken.4961:

3 condi per 10 seconds is another grandmaster trait. on a super long range class
3 condi per 10 seconds (1 per 3) but only above 75% health, on a mostly short range class with the lowest base defenses in the game? that would be hilariously terrible

Ten condis every 10 seconds is balanced? They wont drop below 75% unless stupid. Either way the new ds is exceptional. Probably the best trait in the entire game. No immob, no nothing. Guard turns up and would put a few burn on them? Np it wont work. Its so op

They won’t drop below 75 1v1 against a low pressure condi build, yes.
but burst condi can easily cut off the necessary 3-5k health, not to mention focus from 2 people at once.

It does seem a bit stronger then the old one…

Can you tell me how many heal’s and protection a tempest have? it wont drop so easy to 75% less unless they are really bad.

Anyone who thinks that it’s a buff, is simply ignorant.
Educate yourselves:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Can-someone-explain-to-me/first#post5933314

I practically wrote an essay on this thing all throughout that thread, and if you actually read it all and compare the before/after DS, there’s no reason to think that the change is a buff.

edit: Everything that is being used as arguments in this thread so far, and probably all others in the near future, I’ve most likely already addressed, if not in the OP then in a reply.

We can remove condis simply with Regen, Aura’s give Regen so unlimited Condi Clear with that 75% Health drop it will even help more with every sec 1 condi off so yes its kinda a buff

PS: While Regen = Heal’s, oh and im not going to talk about water heal’s to

Its stronger against Condi builds that rely on only a few conditions (like burn guard and Mesmer).

Its weaker to Condi builds that have access to a large variety of conditions. Necros are going to roll up and cast signet of spite then type GG while their scepter AA finishes the job (slight exaggeration… but you get the point)

Well but at the end, pvp is broken, and gg Anet.

This was just game breaking for almost everyone.

The new Diamond Skin is far weaker than the current Diamond Skin, imo, just because Fear and Taunt will actually work above the threshold, and so will boon corrupts. Getting tagged by a power reaper’s fear, even for a second, can open that 75% window.

Good condi classes can do a lot to overload that threshold with more condis than it can clear, and hybrids can as they always have rely on their Power damage to break the threshold.

The only people that the new Diamond Skin is better against is people who have neither high condi variation or high power damage. Pure condi classes without condi variation have never done well, and that leaves condi-dipping bunkers behind- And if you’re playing a diamond skin bunker, it’s not really your job to bust bunkers anyway.

With all that said Necro’s are the new god’s xD
Still i think its far better

Foggy.9213:

With all that said Necro’s are the new god’s xD

Why is it gods? Maybe they will be improved with the new amulet. The corrupt on scepter aa is minimal as its the third in the chain. And the corrupt boon change is a nerf for opportunity cost reasons, because it provides less spike and because it is a corruption skill which means more poison self applied. A huge nerf in fact. Anyone who cant see this lacks an understanding of the game. The reason people take it is to overload condi removal.

Rickster.8752:

Foggy.9213:

With all that said Necro’s are the new god’s xD

Why is it gods? Maybe they will be improved with the new amulet. The corrupt on scepter aa is minimal as its the third in the chain. And the corrupt boon change is a nerf for opportunity cost reasons, because it provides less spike and because it is a corruption skill which means more poison self applied. A huge nerf in fact. Anyone who cant see this lacks an understanding of the game. The reason people take it is to overload condi removal.

You’re one of those that couldn’t create a good build if your life were on stake, right?

Varezenem.2813:

Rickster.8752:

Foggy.9213:

With all that said Necro’s are the new god’s xD

Why is it gods? Maybe they will be improved with the new amulet. The corrupt on scepter aa is minimal as its the third in the chain. And the corrupt boon change is a nerf for opportunity cost reasons, because it provides less spike and because it is a corruption skill which means more poison self applied. A huge nerf in fact. Anyone who cant see this lacks an understanding of the game. The reason people take it is to overload condi removal.

You’re one of those that couldn’t create a good build if your life were on stake, right?

This is gw2 bro. All the builds are basically presented to you on a plate.

Shadowflare.2759:

Anyone who thinks that it’s a buff, is simply ignorant.
Educate yourselves:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Can-someone-explain-to-me/first#post5933314

I practically wrote an essay on this thing all throughout that thread, and if you actually read it all and compare the before/after DS, there’s no reason to think that the change is a buff.

It is pretty bold to call everyone that disagrees with you ignorant. I think it is debatable whether it is a buff or a nerf. So much changes with the new patch and celestial amulet is going away that you don’t really know how things are going to turn out.

Phantaram [Abjured], arguably one of the best elementalist players doesn’t think the new diamond skin is a nerf, altho he says that it kind of is a nerf and kind of isn’t. Couple of quotes from his stream: “The diamond skin is not really a nerf”, “I think the Diamond Skin change is a buff to the old one”

I give more credit to Phantaram than some random dude from the forums. You can watch the stream here: http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram/v/35802778 Mentioned part is at 2:30:25

Altho, it could be that Phantaram is an ignorant fool as well, who knows…

I was just joking to the other post but ok Oo
I can say my builds are pretty decent never done a meta one tho, probably something you did with your reve right?
I love this people goes all in offensive way lol

I don’t think it’s a buff, I don’t think it’s a nerf: I think it’s a fix. That being said, I’m no chornomancer, I can’t predict the future. I think it will still be very potent: 1 condi removed every second, if you don’t tank too much attacks, will save you from a lot of things above 75% health.

On the other hand, some builds that couldn’t even touch eles before will at least have a chance now. I think of every build that applies condis in bursts (condi necro is the more viable, but condi engineer would be another example). They will now be able to put 5-6 conditions on the elementalist instantly, and it will take 5-6s for the ele to fully recover, and force him to kite, opening a window of opportunity. We’ll see how it plays.

Foggy.9213:

I was just joking to the other post but ok Oo
I can say my builds are pretty decent never done a meta one tho, probably something you did with your reve right?
I love this people goes all in offensive way lol

Sorry if it was to aggressive I thought I hadn’t posted it and indeed I did it on my rev. Consciously of it of course. And my reply was aimed at Rickster.

Sorel.4870:

I don’t think it’s a buff, I don’t think it’s a nerf: I think it’s a fix. That being said, I’m no chornomancer, I can’t predict the future. I think it will still be very potent: 1 condi removed every second, if you don’t tank too much attacks, will save you from a lot of things above 75% health.

On the other hand, some builds that couldn’t even touch eles before will at least have a chance now. I think of every build that applies condis in bursts (condi necro is the more viable, but condi engineer would be another example). They will now be able to put 5-6 conditions on the elementalist instantly, and it will take 5-6s for the ele to fully recover, and force him to kite, opening a window of opportunity. We’ll see how it plays.

Not really. He has other condi cleanses. Other healing. He can dodge, kite, etc etc. Its a beyond amazing trait. The best trait in the game

The thing is you guys are thinking the condi removal only with the DS, but ele’s can remove way faster and better, so that will just buff up even more the condi removal.

So if will take 5-6s to recover only with DS then with all the other things will be like 2-3s
PS: You just need to apply regen. ( With water)

New Diamond Skin will work better on a bruiser. This will open some condition builds and some bruiser-ish elementalist with Earth Traits functionning as their main condition clear source.

Diamond Skin is a trait (grandmaster) and deserves to be “of note” unlike 80% of the elementalist grandmasters.

Foggy.9213:

The thing is you guys are thinking the condi removal only with the DS, but ele’s can remove way faster and better, so that will just buff up even more the condi removal.

So if will take 5-6s to recover only with DS then with all the other things will be like 2-3s
PS: You just need to apply regen. ( With water)

You have to consider the effects of poison, fear ,immobilize and the lack of a healing power/thoughness/vitality amulet eles will be squishier or lack healing.

Blue Hare.8612:

Shadowflare.2759:

Anyone who thinks that it’s a buff, is simply ignorant.
Educate yourselves:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Can-someone-explain-to-me/first#post5933314

I practically wrote an essay on this thing all throughout that thread, and if you actually read it all and compare the before/after DS, there’s no reason to think that the change is a buff.

It is pretty bold to call everyone that disagrees with you ignorant. I think it is debatable whether it is a buff or a nerf. So much changes with the new patch and celestial amulet is going away that you don’t really know how things are going to turn out.

Phantaram [Abjured], arguably one of the best elementalist players doesn’t think the new diamond skin is a nerf, altho he says that it kind of is a nerf and kind of isn’t. Couple of quotes from his stream: “The diamond skin is not really a nerf”, “I think the Diamond Skin change is a buff to the old one”

I give more credit to Phantaram than some random dude from the forums. You can watch the stream here: http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram/v/35802778 Mentioned part is at 2:30:25

Altho, it could be that Phantaram is an ignorant fool as well, who knows…

Phantaram does not main elementalist anymore.

Im totally ok with it. At least you will be able to slow them down, you know , immob ,cripple , chill.
Eles ignoring soft ccs made me rage way mora than them being condi dmg immune.

Foggy.9213:

The thing is you guys are thinking the condi removal only with the DS, but ele’s can remove way faster and better, so that will just buff up even more the condi removal.

So if will take 5-6s to recover only with DS then with all the other things will be like 2-3s
PS: You just need to apply regen. ( With water)

How does having other condi removals make this change a buff?
I have those same condi removals right now, and I can stack it with the current DS to make myself even more invulnerable against conditions…Except I don’t need to. Going 1 v 1 against a condi build, I wouldn’t even need to cleanse right now because literally nothing is applied to me.

Obviously elementalists always have something other than diamond skin, and obviously elementalists wouldn’t just afk and let people damage them. But we’re talking about a change to a single trait. It’s a very simple comparison, before and after the change, which iteration of the trait is more powerful?

The thing is, Diamond skin, old or new, is a standalone trait. It doesn’t combo with anything else for its effect. So really, nothing else affects how well it works other than its own effect.

@blue hare, I can’t watch the stream right now, so I won’t comment on what phantaram said, but I’ll say this: This random guy on the forum has been playing GW2 as an ele main since the first beta of GW2 core game. I made it to legendary as a solo with 63% W/L and under 250 games played.

Phantaram is most likely still a better player than me, and if he thinks that I’m wrong he can go debunk me on my thread, but I don’t think he could deny most of what I said. Maybe he has undisputable proof that the frequency of eles being in a HP zone of 75% vs 90% actually occurs often enough for this change ends up being a buff.

But if you think I’m just here spewing out BS because I don’t know the reality of GW2 meta, think again.

Instead of, or in addition to, a health threshold the new DS should break and go on cooldown after X number of conditions are removed. Maybe like 15.

What you guys think instead of that new DS trait it would stay as the same but it will be like the critical one, you would be immune above 90% health only when on Earth?

It’s both a buff and a nerf. Troubles be coming against condi Necro and Engi, but DS will likely trivialise fights against non-hybrid 1-3 condi burst classes even more with the lowered threshold, which basically constitutes the other six classes. Either way, DS will continue to be a boring trait though. Feels like a missed opportunity for something exciting. Oh well.

Simonoly.4352:

It’s both a buff and a nerf. Troubles be coming against condi Necro and Engi, but DS will likely trivialise fights against non-hybrid 1-3 condi burst classes even more with the lowered threshold, which basically constitutes the other six classes. Either way, DS will continue to be a boring trait though. Feels like a missed opportunity for something exciting. Oh well.

Non-hybrid condi classes wouldn’t be breaking the old DS to apply any conditions in the first place.

1. corrupt boons, 3 boons = 3 conditions
2. focus 5, 3 boons = 3 conditions

that’s 6 conditions.
keep on applying conditions and the ele will melt.

Shadowflare.2759:

The thing is, Diamond skin, old or new, is a standalone trait. It doesn’t combo with anything else for its effect. So really, nothing else affects how well it works other than its own effect.

So you are basically saying that healingpower, toughness and vitality have no effect on how well Diamond Skin works? Can you keep your health up without celestial?

I think we have to look at the bigger picture. I’m going to make a pretty ridiculous and far fetched example here:

Let’s say that there was a trait that gave you permanent 10 might, then it got changed and it now provides 25 stacks. At the same time one of necromancer traits was changed so that with boon corruption necro can one-shot anyone who has 25 might. In this case the buff on a standalone trait from 10 to 25 stacks would be a nerf right, in PvP at least.

To my experience the old Diamond Skin wasn’t so bad, I always had enough power(pet) damage in my condi build to break it, or an ally broke it for me. I’m more scared of the new DS since the builds I have been running don’t really apply conditions constantly. And don’t cling on the fact that I’m running niche non-meta builds, that is not the point.

Necro supposedly had pretty hard time with the old DS, so against necros the new DS is a nerf, sure. So… dunno, I still think that It is too early to tell, it depends on what kind of classes/builds you are put against in the upcoming meta.

And yeah, I’m a just a dirty casual but I think it is going a bit far calling ppl ignorant at this point when only time will tell how things work out. Furthermore, we should have this conversation after the patch so we can see the new DS in action. And I’m totally ok if the new DS turns out to be more powerful than the old one, since without celestial, I dunno what will come of ele.

And I’m not saying that you are completely full of BS, you do make some valid arguments, you could even be right and it turns out to be a nerf. I don’t care who is going to be right, ele is going to be weaker than before anyway, but that is not because of DS. But what I don’t agree on is that you say that this is not open for a debate and that everyone else is just ignorant, and again, we should just wait and see.

Do that by the time you focus the ele, someone already killed you

Blue Hare.8612:

Shadowflare.2759:

The thing is, Diamond skin, old or new, is a standalone trait. It doesn’t combo with anything else for its effect. So really, nothing else affects how well it works other than its own effect.

So you are basically saying that healingpower, toughness and vitality have no effect on how well Diamond Skin works? Can you keep your health up without celestial?

I think we have to look at the bigger picture. I’m going to make a pretty ridiculous and far fetched example here:

Let’s say that there was a trait that gave you permanent 10 might, then it got changed and it now provides 25 stacks. At the same time one of necromancer traits was changed so that with boon corruption necro can one-shot anyone who has 25 might. In this case the buff on a standalone trait from 10 to 25 stacks would be a nerf right, in PvP at least.

To my experience the old Diamond Skin wasn’t so bad, I always had enough power(pet) damage in my condi build to break it, or an ally broke it for me. I’m more scared of the new DS since the builds I have been running don’t really apply conditions constantly. And don’t cling on the fact that I’m running niche non-meta builds, that is not the point.

Necro supposedly had pretty hard time with the old DS, so against necros the new DS is a nerf, sure. So… dunno, I still think that It is too early to tell, it depends on what kind of classes/builds you are put against in the upcoming meta.

And yeah, I’m a just a dirty casual but I think it is going a bit far calling ppl ignorant at this point when only time will tell how things work out. Furthermore, we should have this conversation after the patch so we can see the new DS in action. And I’m totally ok if the new DS turns out to be more powerful than the old one, since without celestial, I dunno what will come of ele.

And I’m not saying that you are completely full of BS, you do make some valid arguments, you could even be right and it turns out to be a nerf. I don’t care who is going to be right, ele is going to be weaker than before anyway, but that is not because of DS. But what I don’t agree on is that you say that this is not open for a debate and that everyone else is just ignorant, and again, we should just wait and see.

The point is that Diamond skin, unlike cleansing water, does not depend on other traits/skills/effects to activate, as such if you want to compare whether the trait gets a buff or a nerf, you simply need to take the same build pre/post patch and compare whether DS perform better or worse.

I will concede that there is an indirect relationship between defensive stats and DS’s ability to be maintained, however that is also besides the point. Even if an amulet is introduced that can further optimize DS use, the trait itself was not buffed, something new was simply added which can help prop up the trait.
In any case, that isn’t even happening. Celestial is being removed, and the replacements aren’t really better, so if anything, the DS change along with amulet change means DS will be even worse off than before.

Exceptions like viper rev and clearly your ranger build are not the norm for full condi users. Assuming equally high skill, the full condi necro had 0 chance of killing the elementalist using the current DS. How could they, if their large hitters are completed negated?

The new DS introduces an opportunity for mass condi pressure to overwhelm the DS, as opposed to the old DS where they had 0 opportunity. That is a new weakness and therefore an obvious nerf to DS effectiveness.

I will take a step back and say “the vast majority of people who thinks this DS is a buff are ignorant”. I simply don’t want their misconceptions to affect how eles is perceived, and therefore indirectly affect how eles balanced in the future. It’s not like I’m saying DS shouldn’t be reworked or DS nerf will destroy elementalists.

Shadowflare.2759:

snip

I havent faced a ton of them to be honest, and when I do its on a pure condi or power build. I think many others have had the same experience and so we dont have the experience to know what is what. Btw, I did take the time to read your post, and I think you could have done a better job. You sound like youre talking down to people, and thats not going to get you anywhere, especially on interweb forums.

Its good for two reasons. 1) It was not nerfed into unviability like a lot of doomsayers were making it out to be. 2) It actually has counterplay besides “don’t be a condi build.” I love it. Not being able to use 80% of my stuff on an Ele was most frustrating.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Shadowflare.2759:

snip

I havent faced a ton of them to be honest, and when I do its on a pure condi or power build. I think many others have had the same experience and so we dont have the experience to know what is what. Btw, I did take the time to read your post, and I think you could have done a better job. You sound like youre talking down to people, and thats not going to get you anywhere, especially on interweb forums.

Given that many of them were repeating each other’s arguments or using arguments already addressed in my opening post, it already suggested to me that they didn’t take the time to digest what has already been put into the discussion before making their posts. I had to type out many things repeatedly, you do that without getting annoyed. I’d say for the most part I stayed quite neutral, other than the exasperation at people repeating the same things as those which have been said.

When I saw the title I thought it was sarcastic because of “soooo”

Did anyone else think this?

Mikkel.8427:

Its stronger against Condi builds that rely on only a few conditions (like burn guard and Mesmer).

Its weaker to Condi builds that have access to a large variety of conditions. Necros are going to roll up and cast signet of spite then type GG while their scepter AA finishes the job (slight exaggeration… but you get the point)

^ this.

The trait change is a lot weaker in retrospect, however, they’ll still be able to sustain well in certain 1v1 fights. Just not as bunkish in team fights and that’s what Anet was removing from the get go.

Imo, it probably needs a 20% condi duration reduction when in Earth or Water tbh.

Atharian.7092:

Its good for two reasons. 1) It was not nerfed into unviability like a lot of doomsayers were making it out to be. 2) It actually has counterplay besides “don’t be a condi build.” I love it. Not being able to use 80% of my stuff on an Ele was most frustrating.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Basically, there’s people who just don’t want the trait to even exist.

The new diamond skin is fine. Now that cele amulet is gone Elementalists will become largely irrelevant anyway.

Shadowflare.2759:

Given that many of them were repeating each other’s arguments or using arguments already addressed in my opening post, it already suggested to me that they didn’t take the time to digest what has already been put into the discussion before making their posts. I had to type out many things repeatedly, you do that without getting annoyed. I’d say for the most part I stayed quite neutral, other than the exasperation at people repeating the same things as those which have been said.

You must realize that not everyone is going to read everything so repeats will happen. The best you can do is rewrite in each thread if youre that adamant about getting the word out.

So if all classes had this trait, would it then be OP?
My warrior would like this trait.

Hansen.3264:

So if all classes had this trait, would it then be OP?
My warrior would like this trait.

All classes would love this trait

I wouldn’t consider it that op. It is an obvious hard counter against condition heavy builds. Hard counters are important in pvp imo.

The most important thing is that now eles aren’t simply immune to any sort of cc which balances this trait in a good way,since cc is the best counter for Elementalist.

Stand The Wall.6987:

It does seem a bit stronger then the old one…

But it isn’t.

Blue Hare.8612:

Phantaram [Abjured], arguably one of the best elementalist players doesn’t think the new diamond skin is a nerf, altho he says that it kind of is a nerf and kind of isn’t. Couple of quotes from his stream: “The diamond skin is not really a nerf”, “I think the Diamond Skin change is a buff to the old one”

I give more credit to Phantaram than some random dude from the forums. You can watch the stream here: http://www.twitch.tv/phantaram/v/35802778 Mentioned part is at 2:30:25

Altho, it could be that Phantaram is an ignorant fool as well, who knows…

This is the same Phantaram who claimed Water + Arcana won’t be mandatory trait lines anymore once Tempest gets released, right? Let’s see how that worked out: Well, Water is as mandatory as ever, and in case you’d still decide to go for d/d you’d most likely bring Arcana as well. Conclusion? Playerskill doesn’t necessarily translate into accurately predicting the results of upcoming changes to the game. I don’t see a reason to have more faith in Phantaram than some random dude from the forums tbh.

Lupanic.6502:

Hansen.3264:

So if all classes had this trait, would it then be OP?
My warrior would like this trait.

All classes would love this trait

Well its by far the best trait in the game so…..

Could see cleric eles return