Guild Wars 2

the problem with condi will always the same problem

ppl dont like to get dmg to something they cannot prevent.
with power build if thief hits you for 6k dmg the next hit can be mitigated by dodge, block, evade, immunity etc…
with condition when you get the burst which hit lets say 3k per sec you can cleanse once but than hit you get burst again if you didnt dodge, evade, or block you will take 9k dmg or get killed.

so ppl like and will always like to get killed by power build as they say its my fault i didnt dodge,block,evade but with condition which after apply they cant do anything if cleanse skills is not available they hate it

the result will be always the same

thus i think to problem is not with cleanse or application rather the problem is with sustain
mesmer was op in s2 with amulet. when it nerf mesmer had to use carrion so power build can take them if they are smart.
warrior and necro still might seem better as warrior has so many passive sustain trait and skills and necro almost the same with DS and other skills. so ppl hate them

if condition burst can do 3k per second than the sustain versus the power build should be the same so less armor and less passive trait

same with power build . why ppl hate engi. as they got good dmg and sustain with so many passive trait

Ario.8964:

Shaogin.2679:

I have seen no information whatsoever to show the performance of conditions is too much. What I have seen is that the application of conditions on 3 professions is currently too strong. So why nerf condition performance across the board instead of balancing the condi application and/or sustain of the only 3 professions that are causing a problem with it?

Information being the Pro league winners had a comp consisting of 2 condi dealers, 2 bunkers and only 1 power. Anyone who ran a comp different than this in any way was utterly destroyed.

This does nothing to show that condition damage in general is over-performing. This just shows that those specific builds are strong right now.

Ario.8964:

The sustain and application of the builds causing a problem should be dealt with but at the same time there are fundamental issues with conditions and that’s why these builds were able to exist in the first place. They wouldn’t be nearly as troublesome if their condis didn’t each last for 10+ seconds (anything above 8 is bad) and have high damage without them needing to invest heavily into buffing those conditions through things like traits. Take power builds for example, they generally have to take every damage mod they can get their hands on whereas condi builds can just slot the pure defense traits because their condi damage will be high anyways.

Actually, looking over the meta builds I’ve noticed that condi builds and power builds invest in a very similar way. They either invest more heavily into stats while taking more defensive traits, or they invest more heavily into traits while taking more defensive stats.

Ario.8964:

What I want to see is stuff like damage nerfed but have damage mods added in so they can achieve the damage they do now but sacrifice for it. Same reason I want power damage reduced as base with an increase in scaling. Builds should be based on investment via traits, gear, and skills. Not take 1 or 2 stats and have high damage then just take a bunch of defensive skills and traits and be insanely hard to kill with tons of damage.

At least that’s what I think it should be and seeing as we are not the same nor are our opinions the same we may not ever agree on this

I can agree with this part. Everything from damage to sustain should be much more reliant on stats. Builds are currently able to invest into to much at once. When a build becomes too proficient in 2 or more of the following: Damage, Sustain, Support, then it becomes over-tuned.

What I don’t agree with is creating a thread that targets only condition damage. The only thing this accomplishes is stirring up more hate against conditions. If your goal is to make everything in the game more stat reliant, then talk about that instead of singling out conditions.

You say you talk about power damage too but I look on the front page here and I see this and some wacky suggestions for build diversity. If you have a separate thread for fixing power damage and it gets lost in the archives, then people are only seeing half your message and not getting the full idea. Read the posts on here, just a bunch of condi hate.

That good sir, is why we do not agree.

messiah.1908:

the problem with condi will always the same problem

ppl dont like to get dmg to something they cannot prevent.
with power build if thief hits you for 6k dmg the next hit can be mitigated by dodge, block, evade, immunity etc…
with condition when you get the burst which hit lets say 3k per sec you can cleanse once but than hit you get burst again if you didnt dodge, evade, or block you will take 9k dmg or get killed.

so ppl like and will always like to get killed by power build as they say its my fault i didnt dodge,block,evade but with condition which after apply they cant do anything if cleanse skills is not available they hate it

the result will be always the same

thus i think to problem is not with cleanse or application rather the problem is with sustain
mesmer was op in s2 with amulet. when it nerf mesmer had to use carrion so power build can take them if they are smart.
warrior and necro still might seem better as warrior has so many passive sustain trait and skills and necro almost the same with DS and other skills. so ppl hate them

if condition burst can do 3k per second than the sustain versus the power build should be the same so less armor and less passive trait

same with power build . why ppl hate engi. as they got good dmg and sustain with so many passive trait

Not that I don’t agree with your suggestions or adressing sustain, but did you just compare a Thief crit to a series of condi attacks? I mean, I could always be wrong because I don’t play Warrior or Mesmer, but I’m pretty sure there is no single attack that applies enough conditions to tick for 3k damage as second.

Also, I can’t stress this enough, you avoid condi damage the exact same way you avoid power damage. You don’t just magically get conditions on you, you have to be hit with an attack. And for the most part, for my Necro amd Engi at least, the damage done over time from a single condi attack is generally less than the damage done all at once from a single power attack.

Shaogin.2679:

Ario.8964:

Shaogin.2679:

I have seen no information whatsoever to show the performance of conditions is too much. What I have seen is that the application of conditions on 3 professions is currently too strong. So why nerf condition performance across the board instead of balancing the condi application and/or sustain of the only 3 professions that are causing a problem with it?

Information being the Pro league winners had a comp consisting of 2 condi dealers, 2 bunkers and only 1 power. Anyone who ran a comp different than this in any way was utterly destroyed.

This does nothing to show that condition damage in general is over-performing. This just shows that those specific builds are strong right now.

Ario.8964:

The sustain and application of the builds causing a problem should be dealt with but at the same time there are fundamental issues with conditions and that’s why these builds were able to exist in the first place. They wouldn’t be nearly as troublesome if their condis didn’t each last for 10+ seconds (anything above 8 is bad) and have high damage without them needing to invest heavily into buffing those conditions through things like traits. Take power builds for example, they generally have to take every damage mod they can get their hands on whereas condi builds can just slot the pure defense traits because their condi damage will be high anyways.

Actually, looking over the meta builds I’ve noticed that condi builds and power builds invest in a very similar way. They either invest more heavily into stats while taking more defensive traits, or they invest more heavily into traits while taking more defensive stats.

Ario.8964:

What I want to see is stuff like damage nerfed but have damage mods added in so they can achieve the damage they do now but sacrifice for it. Same reason I want power damage reduced as base with an increase in scaling. Builds should be based on investment via traits, gear, and skills. Not take 1 or 2 stats and have high damage then just take a bunch of defensive skills and traits and be insanely hard to kill with tons of damage.

At least that’s what I think it should be and seeing as we are not the same nor are our opinions the same we may not ever agree on this

I can agree with this part. Everything from damage to sustain should be much more reliant on stats. Builds are currently able to invest into to much at once. When a build becomes too proficient in 2 or more of the following: Damage, Sustain, Support, then it becomes over-tuned.

What I don’t agree with is creating a thread that targets only condition damage. The only thing this accomplishes is stirring up more hate against conditions. If your goal is to make everything in the game more stat reliant, then talk about that instead of singling out conditions.

You say you talk about power damage too but I look on the front page here and I see this and some wacky suggestions for build diversity. If you have a separate thread for fixing power damage and it gets lost in the archives, then people are only seeing half your message and not getting the full idea. Read the posts on here, just a bunch of condi hate.

That good sir, is why we do not agree.

I put out a few balance threads on overall balance that really nailed power builds but yeah it got lost cause nobody decided to comment on it and if i bumped it then mods would delete it and I’d be left with nothing. I may make a separate thread on specific issues with power builds but this thread I wanted to be a pure condi discussion without comparison to power builds. The issue is you can’t balance 1 just by comparing it to another damage type so I thought (maybe incorrectly) that starting a thread specific to 1 damage type and limiting discussion to that type without the shackles of comparison would help to get a better idea of how to balance the condition damage type of the game.

And in all honesty there isn’t much to say about power. It needs base values reduced and scaling increased and that’s about it. It already has the damage mod system in place so that suggestion is for condis only.

P.S Thanks for being civilized in this discussion and not just raging over the thread. I very much appreciate people willing to discuss without resorting to name calling and the classic “l2p” arguments.

Shaogin.2679:

messiah.1908:

the problem with condi will always the same problem

ppl dont like to get dmg to something they cannot prevent.
with power build if thief hits you for 6k dmg the next hit can be mitigated by dodge, block, evade, immunity etc…
with condition when you get the burst which hit lets say 3k per sec you can cleanse once but than hit you get burst again if you didnt dodge, evade, or block you will take 9k dmg or get killed.

so ppl like and will always like to get killed by power build as they say its my fault i didnt dodge,block,evade but with condition which after apply they cant do anything if cleanse skills is not available they hate it

the result will be always the same

thus i think to problem is not with cleanse or application rather the problem is with sustain
mesmer was op in s2 with amulet. when it nerf mesmer had to use carrion so power build can take them if they are smart.
warrior and necro still might seem better as warrior has so many passive sustain trait and skills and necro almost the same with DS and other skills. so ppl hate them

if condition burst can do 3k per second than the sustain versus the power build should be the same so less armor and less passive trait

same with power build . why ppl hate engi. as they got good dmg and sustain with so many passive trait

Not that I don’t agree with your suggestions or adressing sustain, but did you just compare a Thief crit to a series of condi attacks? I mean, I could always be wrong because I don’t play Warrior or Mesmer, but I’m pretty sure there is no single attack that applies enough conditions to tick for 3k damage as second.

Also, I can’t stress this enough, you avoid condi damage the exact same way you avoid power damage. You don’t just magically get conditions on you, you have to be hit with an attack. And for the most part, for my Necro amd Engi at least, the damage done over time from a single condi attack is generally less than the damage done all at once from a single power attack.

by reading your answer i see you didnt get my point

i said why ppl hate. i do not hate

most ppl can take direct dmg and get killed in 3 sec but thief burst while if they get killed by mesmer after 10-15 sec they scream op, kitten condi etc….
also i can do 3k confusion tick for 2 sec thus 6k dmg so yes sometime i can compare

the only problem is condi build have passive sustain (most of which used in power build) but also have toughness or ability to handle direct dmg better (not mesmer any more)

power build invest in 3 line to be effective – power, crit chance and crit dmg
condi build – condition thats all

The whole condi builds can take more defensive stats doesn’t apply in sPvP though. Two condi builds are running Carrion, they are actually hybrid builds. They supplement their lower condi damage with extra power damage. The other condi build takes Wanderer’s amulet, which invests in all three condi stats. This corresponds with power builds taking Marauder and Paladin amulets. So that argument just doesn’t really apply to sPvP.

The sustain from these condi builds is coming from traits and profession mechanics, just the same as power builds. Not really any glassy builds in this meta besides Daredevil, and they compensate best they can in other ways.

@Ario: No problem, I always try to stay logical.

Shaogin.2679:

The whole condi builds can take more defensive stats doesn’t apply in sPvP though. Two condi builds are running Carrion, they are actually hybrid builds. They supplement their lower condi damage with extra power damage. The other condi build takes Wanderer’s amulet, which invests in all three condi stats. This corresponds with power builds taking Marauder and Paladin amulets. So that argument just doesn’t really apply to sPvP.

The sustain from these condi builds is coming from traits and profession mechanics, just the same as power builds. Not really any glassy builds in this meta besides Daredevil, and they compensate best they can in other ways.

@Ario: No problem, I always try to stay logical.

yet you dont see power mesmer or power necro. if both build has the same sustain why none use the power ones?
warrior use wanderer as they have base higher vitality and armor

what the hell are we arguing for

i agree condi almost compare to power . i just state why ppl hate condi builds

Shaogin.2679:

The whole condi builds can take more defensive stats doesn’t apply in sPvP though. Two condi builds are running Carrion, they are actually hybrid builds. They supplement their lower condi damage with extra power damage. The other condi build takes Wanderer’s amulet, which invests in all three condi stats. This corresponds with power builds taking Marauder and Paladin amulets. So that argument just doesn’t really apply to sPvP.

The sustain from these condi builds is coming from traits and profession mechanics, just the same as power builds. Not really any glassy builds in this meta besides Daredevil, and they compensate best they can in other ways.

@Ario: No problem, I always try to stay logical.

True it doesn’t apply it to Spvp. But at the same time there aren’t many damage increasing traits they have to invest into either so they can afford to take defensive and utility traits and weapons outside of their main condi damage weapon. By reducing damage on the condis as a base and spreading some damage mods throughout the trait selection would help significantly to reduce the oppressiveness of the specific offending condi builds. The only reason I find it less of a problem with power builds is that they often have to choose between defensive traits or damage mods which help to balance it (Paladin still probably needs a look at in terms of the damage it can still put out).

I think we have the same idea at this point.

Warrior and Necro use pretty much the same amont of offensive and defensive traits for both condi and power. Most condi builds have to invest into offensive traits, skills and weapons for a reasonable dmg output, sometimes even more than power builds.

Imo the main reason, why power (burst) builds are less viable, are all those spamable and passive defenses, which counters burst and requires constant and easy to land dmg. Those meta condi builds are not very bursty, but the same is true for power builds like scrapper or druid, who doesn’t rely on burst either, or rev with easy to land skills on low cd like precision strike and weapon/legend swap procs. “Burst condi builds” like burn engi or burn guard are not viable for similar reasons.

I don’t agree with #1.
I do agree with #2. I personally never understood why expertise is constant addition.

Power builds have always relied on precision to get their ferocity gains. Without percision/critchance ferocity use useless. Power builds require a balance of 3 offensive stats. Why isnt condition damage like that?

Condition builds have almost no requirement for crit chance in builds. It’s pretty much just extra application on crit. I’d love to see expertise a gains seen only from crit application(meaning the skill applying the condition would have to crit). It would make condition builds round out as well, forcing them into three stat requirements over two. Meaning they would have to shave off some of the tankier stats instead of getting the best of all worlds.

First of all, I personally think this thread has inadvertently hit the nail on its head and simultaneously run its course by identifying a much larger concept: required investment. I propose a new thread be started with this concept in mind that clearly identifies the concept in the title and as the primary topic in the initial post, complete with spelling out a working definition to promote further discussion.

Second of all, I would like to rant a little about this topic and how I see it fitting into the overall scheme of sPvP, albeit a bit vaguely. Feel free to peruse, but I will otherwise save you the screen space.

Ario.8964:

Shaogin.2679:

The whole condi builds can take more defensive stats doesn’t apply in sPvP though. Two condi builds are running Carrion, they are actually hybrid builds. They supplement their lower condi damage with extra power damage. The other condi build takes Wanderer’s amulet, which invests in all three condi stats. This corresponds with power builds taking Marauder and Paladin amulets. So that argument just doesn’t really apply to sPvP.

The sustain from these condi builds is coming from traits and profession mechanics, just the same as power builds. Not really any glassy builds in this meta besides Daredevil, and they compensate best they can in other ways.

@Ario: No problem, I always try to stay logical.

True it doesn’t apply it to Spvp. But at the same time there aren’t many damage increasing traits they have to invest into either so they can afford to take defensive and utility traits and weapons outside of their main condi damage weapon. By reducing damage on the condis as a base and spreading some damage mods throughout the trait selection would help significantly to reduce the oppressiveness of the specific offending condi builds. The only reason I find it less of a problem with power builds is that they often have to choose between defensive traits or damage mods which help to balance it (Paladin still probably needs a look at in terms of the damage it can still put out).

I think we have the same idea at this point.

Wow, that’s a good post. I never actually thought about it, it’s true. Condition builds don’t need to spec into damage modifiers and can pick only the traits that allow them survival.

Power warrior would take the same traits as condi warrior , condi necro takes as much offensive traits as power necro would, similar for mesmer who takes illusion line for more condi application instead of going full defensive. Same is true for most condi builds, which have to invest into offensive traits for more condi application, because condis from weapons alone are usually not enough.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Power warrior would take the same traits as condi warrior , condi necro takes as much offensive traits as power necro would, similar for mesmer who takes illusion line for more condi application instead of going full defensive. Same is true for most condi builds, which have to invest into offensive traits for more condi application, because condis from weapons alone are usually not enough.

Um, I disagree actually. Condi warrior gets all of his condi damage needed from mace alone, berserker is picked not just for the extra damage, but extra spam on burst skills, quickness, fury, stability.
Same goes for condi mesmer. Even tho there are better traitlines for survivability than illusions, illusions grants you reduced recharge on a massive number of skills (illusion summoning skills), reduces CD on shatters which synergizes well with Inspiration for the heal and condi cleanse on shatter. It also improves each shatter as well.
Necro takes Curses over Blood magic, since Curses has extra condi removal, additional weakness application (which is good for defense and offense), extra boonstrip, more pressure, etc. Soul reaping is a good for a hybrid build and since going hybrid makes you twice as strong as sole power (more pressure, more survivability, since the traitlines you pick to survive also give you lots of split damage).

And that in my opinion is what is wrong with conditions. Since you don’t need any damage modifiers for conditions, going hybrid is extremely effective. Sure, you will do less physical damage, but who cares about that, when you have conditions that debuff and damage your enemy at the SAME time, alongside power which deals raw damage upfront (and every single attack that hits your enemy scales with it). Why should a person be able to debuff and damage an enemy, while still being tanky?

Actually, if you compare something like condi Necro with Scrapper or Druid, condi Necro invests much more into damage trait-wise. Traits from Scrapper are almost entirely defensive. Every other power build also invests a into defense. Condi Warrior is the only condi build which invests basically all traits into defense, like Scrapper.

The only power build I can think of from the top of my head that goes all out on damage is Revenant, and even then Revenant is pretty kitten tanky.

This is just a trait-wise perspective.

with all the condi spam i feel if you clear a particular condi you should be immune to that condi for like 1-2 secs just so it cant be immediately put back on you like nothing happened. it gives you a chance to dodge the next condi attack without needing to spam threw youre dodges.

nice conclusion but ho they don’t read

Tomiyou.3790:

Ario.8964:

Shaogin.2679:

The whole condi builds can take more defensive stats doesn’t apply in sPvP though. Two condi builds are running Carrion, they are actually hybrid builds. They supplement their lower condi damage with extra power damage. The other condi build takes Wanderer’s amulet, which invests in all three condi stats. This corresponds with power builds taking Marauder and Paladin amulets. So that argument just doesn’t really apply to sPvP.

The sustain from these condi builds is coming from traits and profession mechanics, just the same as power builds. Not really any glassy builds in this meta besides Daredevil, and they compensate best they can in other ways.

@Ario: No problem, I always try to stay logical.

True it doesn’t apply it to Spvp. But at the same time there aren’t many damage increasing traits they have to invest into either so they can afford to take defensive and utility traits and weapons outside of their main condi damage weapon. By reducing damage on the condis as a base and spreading some damage mods throughout the trait selection would help significantly to reduce the oppressiveness of the specific offending condi builds. The only reason I find it less of a problem with power builds is that they often have to choose between defensive traits or damage mods which help to balance it (Paladin still probably needs a look at in terms of the damage it can still put out).

I think we have the same idea at this point.

Wow, that’s a good post. I never actually thought about it, it’s true. Condition builds don’t need to spec into damage modifiers and can pick only the traits that allow them survival.

Incorrect actually. Sure, we don’t have +10% damage modifiers and what not, but we still have to trait for our skills to apply extra conditions. Looking at the traits all the meta builds take, it’s actually pretty even. So this isn’t really a valid argument. Also, not picking up precision and expertise reduces the max amount of stacks of a condition we can get on an opponent. This isn’t focused so much on in sPvP, but it is not the condi user’s fault. The reason we don’t spec so heavily into precision and expertise is because conditions get so frequently cleansed before they reach their stack potential. This is why we rely on traits to stack extra conditions, and go for a more bursty approach. However, that can still be countered by timing your cleanses properly. I do it all my core Engi all the time, and he has horrible condi clear access.

In sPvP, condition builds are having to invest in their damage just as much as power builds. WvW is a different story due to a wider variety of stat combinations, but again is the same for power builds there too. And WvW is just an unbalanced mess. We have to get past all these stereotypes that are coming in from other game modes, set them aside, and fix the issues that are directly affecting sPvP game mode first.

Also, wish Anet would split skills between sPvP and the other game modes already. That would be a huge step in the right direction.

Tomiyou.3790:

Um, I disagree actually. Condi warrior gets all of his condi damage needed from mace alone, berserker is picked not just for the extra damage, but extra spam on burst skills, quickness, fury, stability.

Power warrior gets all his dmg from his weapon skills either. Both kinds of builds can take exactly the same traits. (Defense/Discipline/Berserk – both condi and power builds can take Strengh instead of Disc for more dmg, but overall it is considered the weaker version). Both take defensive utitities. Both can take amulets with same amount of defensive stats (wanderer vs demolisher/marauder – yes, condi warrior can also take carrion or rabid – both offer less condi dmg than wanderer though).

You are right about Condi (hybrid) mesmer, which is still far from being a bunker …

Tomiyou.3790:

Necro takes Curses over Blood magic, since Curses has extra condi removal, additional weakness application (which is good for defense and offense), extra boonstrip, more pressure, etc. Soul reaping is a good for a hybrid build and since going hybrid makes you twice as strong as sole power (more pressure, more survivability, since the traitlines you pick to survive also give you lots of split damage).

Necro always takes Soulreaping and Reaper, regardless of power or condi. Power necro would take Spite, condi necro takes Curses or Spite (Signet Build). Overall not that much of a difference.

For a reasonable dmg output condi engi has to invest more into offense than power scrapper, burn guard has to invest more into offense than power dh, same for condi ranger.

No viable build would only invest into offense, everyone needs some kind of defense. Just because power builds can invest into more dmg modifier than condi builds, doesn’t mean, they have to. Nobody plays PvE builds in PvP …

Needs to be said again. Skills were once split between the three game modes. Anet merged them and gave their reasons and said that it will not be reverted. Asking for this over and over again will only cause them to ignore your arguement. Unless you can get a monsterous number of players to back you, they might listen. Probably not.

Famine.7915:

Needs to be said again. Skills were once split between the three game modes. Anet merged them and gave their reasons and said that it will not be reverted. Asking for this over and over again will only cause them to ignore your arguement. Unless you can get a monsterous number of players to back you, they might listen. Probably not.

Josh Davis.6015:

Trigr.6481:

---

Balancing SPvP individually——-

- This is probably the single most important change that the SPvP community needs whether you realize it or not. Not only does this make sense, but since SPvP is already isolated, not one change you make here effects the rest of the game. The way it currently works the devs expect us as players to think about the rest of the game before giving changes to a specific game type, however this way of thinking will never create good balance and the reason why is the majority of changes people suggest are obviously only made and will work for Spvp. WvW and PvE are very different in terms of balance and changes for one often conflict with the other two making the change almost meaningless to begin with.

The Lesh Prince recently developed some tech that makes skill-splitting more feasible than it was previously – you’ll see some PvP (and PvE) splits in the next balance update. It’s important to understand that changes will still need to be global, but we’ll definitely have a bit more flexibility moving forward.

Keeping parity between modes when possible is important to us – but when it’s not feasible we’ll look at splits.

edit: that clickbait though

They have confirmed that they will be splitting in the future as they can.

I have an idea, but we’ll need people to help. Basically 5 condi mes in pvp, make enough people mad that they’re forced to fix this cancerous problem. Condition based build take little to no skill to play. So it’s easy to learn, no risk high rewards. Am I right Anet..

I dunno. I always feel these kind of threads are made by people who main classes weakest to condis. For example, power revs. Meanwhile when you see a thread complaining about dh it’s probably a thf main doing the complaining and similarly threads whining about condi warriors are usually ele and necro mains.

Revs, druids and theives complaining about lack of condi clear? Comedy time so soon?

Ha ha ha haaah! Suck it down!

Druid used to have great team condi clear trough ancient seeds, but it got nerfed and no one seemed to care. So now you all get to eat condi for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Enjoy it, because your dedicated healer cant really help you while you are roasting, bleeding, and puking your confused self to death.

First, there is a lot of resistance and cleanse available.

Second, ANET has consistently nerfed power shatter so hard that it’s not usuable. Condi gives a fighting chance against perma block dh.. super burst rev.. perma stun warrior and what-have-you.

Light armor power for Mesmer and Ele sucks. The OP paints condi as fire and forget. That’s not true. Condis have to be maintained and reapplied. The other side of the argument is that power builds can take out a light armored condi build .. sometimes in less than a second.

This is a learn to play issue.

Whatver you guys think can help, PLEASE, dont kill my condi engi, its my only alternative to not play scrapper :c

The whole “condi is fire and forget” thing really shows a lack of understanding.

How do you land a power burst as rifle warrior? Build up adrenaline, land the F1.
How do you land a condi burst as mace warrior? Build up adrenaline, land the F1.
Both attacks are super dodgeable. The rifle f1 is ranged but a projectile. The mace f1 is melee.

Power burst as necro? Autoattack with dagger. Autoattack with shroud. Drop wells on point.
Condi burst as necro? Land scepter 2 & 3, staff 2 & 3. (The autoattack with scepter does less condi damage than power necro’s autoattack with dagger.) Land signets to corrupt.

The real reason people struggle with condi is because the damage is less obvious. People get hit with a bunch of autoattack condis that will only add up to ~2k-3k damage, burn all of their condi cleanses to prevent that damage, and then they eat the big condi burst skill and die.
That’s no different from wasting your invuln on a warrior’s rifle autoattacks and then eating the killshot and dying.

^ Spot on! Well put.

The only condie builds that really work are those that can continuously apply conditions, and against a team that is not able to continuously cleanse those conditions.

The whole problem with conditions and cleansing in this game is that everything is “black & white” with Anet balancing and abilities. Either you have a 3k+ per second Burn on you that may well have required 2-3 attacks to build up, or a single instant (or even passive) cleanse ability takes all of the stacks away and the condition attack is completely nullified without doing much damage! (Same for Resistance.)

Can we not always balance in extremes please?

How about “Resistance” actually being “resistance” and not “invulnerability?” Taking say 50% off of all condition damage done to you rather than 100%, would mean you could hand out more Resistance and for longer durations without completely killing off all Condition builds instantly. (Or make it stackable?)

Same applies to Cleanses; hand out a bunch more, and you naturally kill off condition builds totally. Such a simplistic “all or nothing” approach to balance simply can never lead to a balanced game.

It inevitably leads to cycles where Condition builds dominate, or where they mean absolutely nothing…and not much of anything in between. In fact against a competent team right now, conditions can often seem very very lackluster, because you blow all your load and often get absolutely no damage in return.

Sure, Power builds can suffer the same frustrating fate which is also wrong, but at least you generally get to do your damage, where as a condie build can often feel completely impotent in the presence of a coordinated team.

In short…

More gray tones, and less black & white please Anet!

Also, the ESL meta isn’t 1 power, 2 bunker, 2 condi. It’s 1 power roamer, 2 power bruisers/support, and 2 condi.