Guild Wars 2

Knote.2904:

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

But then maybe the skill is buggy? If it has no maximum range?

On the other hand, why do you run into this mark? its a huge red circle on the floor.

Every skill that is on the other side of the map is less damage on the side of the necro

I cant see any problem here with condition damage.

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

whyme.3281:

Knote.2904:

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

But then maybe the skill is buggy? If it has no maximum range?

On the other hand, why do you run into this mark? its a huge red circle on the floor.

Every skill that is on the other side of the map is less damage on the side of the necro

I cant see any problem here with condition damage.

Again you people are missing the point entirely.

It’s not about someone running into an obvious mark.

It’s that I can proc a massive amount of dmg with little thought.

I’m having a jackie chan moment here.

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I agree with you, the ICD/‘compression’ on dhuumfire gives it an advantage in real situations. You only need to land a couple of attacks every 10 seconds or so to proc it. You’ll never kill someone with dhuumfire alone though, so you’re going to have to land attacks anyway, just like someone trying to max their benefit from axe mastery.

You might want to check your numbers btw. I think you’re referring to pve numbers, with 4s base duration and 2k condi damage etc. My dhuumfire hits for 1890 in pvp.

Knote.2904:

whyme.3281:

Knote.2904:

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

But then maybe the skill is buggy? If it has no maximum range?

On the other hand, why do you run into this mark? its a huge red circle on the floor.

Every skill that is on the other side of the map is less damage on the side of the necro

I cant see any problem here with condition damage.

Again you people are missing the point entirely.

It’s not about someone running into an obvious mark.

It’s that I can proc a massive amount of dmg with little thought.

I’m having a jackie chan moment here.

Warrior Axe F1, Kill shot, 100-blades, Lighning hammer, FGS,… want to hear more?

and btw, they cant be cleansed, after half damage is done

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I agree with you, the ICD/‘compression’ on dhuumfire gives it an advantage in real situations. You only need to land a couple of attacks every 10 seconds or so to proc it. You’ll never kill someone with dhuumfire alone though, so you’re going to have to land attacks anyway, just like someone trying to max their benefit from axe mastery.

You might want to check your numbers btw. I think you’re referring to pve numbers, with 4s base duration and 2k condi damage etc. My dhuumfire hits for 1890 in pvp.

It will always be atleast 5 seconds because it requires 30 in the Power tree hehe.

How on earth are you only getting 1890 burn dmg with 2k condi dmg and 4 tics?

whyme.3281:

Knote.2904:

whyme.3281:

Knote.2904:

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

But then maybe the skill is buggy? If it has no maximum range?

On the other hand, why do you run into this mark? its a huge red circle on the floor.

Every skill that is on the other side of the map is less damage on the side of the necro

I cant see any problem here with condition damage.

Again you people are missing the point entirely.

It’s not about someone running into an obvious mark.

It’s that I can proc a massive amount of dmg with little thought.

I’m having a jackie chan moment here.

Warrior Axe F1, Kill shot, 100-blades, Lighning hammer, FGS,… want to hear more?

and btw, they cant be cleansed, after half damage is done

Those are all attacks that actually require input from the player, and they all have risk/reward attatched to them.

Those were actually examples used in the “risk vs reward” thread.

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I agree with you, the ICD/‘compression’ on dhuumfire gives it an advantage in real situations. You only need to land a couple of attacks every 10 seconds or so to proc it. You’ll never kill someone with dhuumfire alone though, so you’re going to have to land attacks anyway, just like someone trying to max their benefit from axe mastery.

You might want to check your numbers btw. I think you’re referring to pve numbers, with 4s base duration and 2k condi damage etc. My dhuumfire hits for 1890 in pvp.

It will always be atleast 5 seconds because it requires 30 in the Power tree hehe.

How on earth are you only getting 1890 burn dmg with 2k condi dmg and 4 tics?

I don’t have 2k condi damage. You can’t get 2k condi damage in pvp. You can’t get 4 ticks in pvp either. My burns tick 630, and I get 3.

Well, you could probably get close to 2k condi damage with 25 corruption stacks and 25 might stacks, and you can get 4 dhuumfire ticks with 51% or more burning duration and a lot of luck or incredible timing, but most of the time, it’s ~1890.

so noone is casting those condition spells? cool, i think I’m doing something wrong then.

Even with Dhuumfire I need to land a critical hit to proc it. Thats obvious no input.

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.

Yes, but you have to commit to the target, you have to actually land attacks.

And yes with high enough condition dmg 1k burn tics aren’t that far-fetched. And Dhuumfire already gets 30% duration boost, which puts it just 20% shy of 6 seconds.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I agree with you, the ICD/‘compression’ on dhuumfire gives it an advantage in real situations. You only need to land a couple of attacks every 10 seconds or so to proc it. You’ll never kill someone with dhuumfire alone though, so you’re going to have to land attacks anyway, just like someone trying to max their benefit from axe mastery.

You might want to check your numbers btw. I think you’re referring to pve numbers, with 4s base duration and 2k condi damage etc. My dhuumfire hits for 1890 in pvp.

It will always be atleast 5 seconds because it requires 30 in the Power tree hehe.

How on earth are you only getting 1890 burn dmg with 2k condi dmg and 4 tics?

I don’t have 2k condi damage. You can’t get 2k condi damage in pvp. You can’t get 4 ticks in pvp either (well, with 51% or more burning duration and a lot of luck/incredible timing you could). My burns tick 630, and I get 3.

Um. Burn tics once per second.

Yeah I may have over estimated burn dmg for spvp, but even 2k condi dmg is 825 tics. And my necro spec with 50% cond duration even has 1300 cond dmg.

250 from sigil and 12 might stacks alone can put that even higher. Engy is quite known for high might stacks. And necro has access to blood is power and the might spam trait.

It’s still a large amount of passive mindless dmg.

whyme.3281:

so noone is casting those condition spells? cool, i think I’m doing something wrong then.

Even with Dhuumfire I need to land a critical hit to proc it. Thats obvious no input.

It’s ok, you don’t need to understand it, just the devs do.

Knote.2904:

Um. Burn tics once per second.

Yeah I may have over estimated burn dmg for spvp, but even 2k condi dmg is 825 tics. And my necro spec with 50% cond duration even has 1300 cond dmg.

250 from sigil and 12 might stacks alone can put that even higher. Engy is quite known for high might stacks. And necro has access to blood is power and the might spam trait.

It’s still a large amount of passive mindless dmg.

1300 gives you those 630 ticks, and 50% duration gives you 3 ticks. Dhuumfire has 2s base duration in pvp. Your dhuumfire does the same as mine. If you get 25 corruption stacks, yeah, it’s going to be higher, but do you really think that’s what you should use for your example? Likewise, you could run BiP, but it’s pretty bad. Stunbreak+corrupt + either sig of spite or epi is more typical.

whyme.3281:

so noone is casting those condition spells? cool, i think I’m doing something wrong then.

Even with Dhuumfire I need to land a critical hit to proc it. Thats obvious no input.

900 range Scepter auto-attack spam proccing Dhuumfire because of a crit is NOT the same as being in melee, following your target’s every move and waiting for right moment to make your attack land so that he can’t evade it. (Skill-shot).

Melee takes far more user input and thought even to play at a basic level than Ranged.

Ranged Condition builds have been made into easy-mode PvP.

Necro used to be a class with a high skill ceiling, now it’s just a bunch of backpeddlers capable of a horrific amount of damage output with ranged auto-attack spam.

Knote.2904:

whyme.3281:

so noone is casting those condition spells? cool, i think I’m doing something wrong then.

Even with Dhuumfire I need to land a critical hit to proc it. Thats obvious no input.

It’s ok, you don’t need to understand it, just the devs do.

they wont understand it either.

you are talking about risk/reward with those skills.
Axe F1 i need to be in a range of 300 with min. 10 adrenalin and then this is a 7k+ dmg burst (risk? its a melee weapon)
100 Blades: risk: standing still, reward: 10k+ dmg
and so on

for conditions its the same:
dhuumfire need to proc, so i need a crit, for this i need to hit my enemy and for this i need to stay in range. And how much damage do i get from dhuumfire? ~2k every 10+ seconds. where is my reward?
Pin down, deals a huge amount of damage over 20 seconds where is the risk you will ask? the cleanse that should be in every build?
Blood is power: risk: selfbleed and cleanse its a 30second bleed and the reward is 10stacks might and 2 long bleeds.
Engi poison granade: risk: enemy walks one step to the left + cleanse reward: up to 50sec poison if the enemy is stupid enough to stand still for 5 sec.
and so on….

@Ezrael: I wrote this in an other thread to you, dont play a guardian, if you like to deal ranged damage. And fights are not pressing 1 at your keyboard.

It’s kind of ridiculous how behind these forums are. The top teams are replacing their condition necromancers with power builds, and even before that warriors were keeping conditions in check. Yet here we are, and players in the 50 percentile continue complaining about conditions.

Lopez.7369:

It’s kind of ridiculous how behind these forums are. The top teams are replacing their condition necromancers with power builds, and even before that warriors were keeping conditions in check. Yet here we are, and players in the 50 percentile continue complaining about conditions.

I’m complaining about risk/reward.

Lopez.7369:

It’s kind of ridiculous how behind these forums are. The top teams are replacing their condition necromancers with power builds, and even before that warriors were keeping conditions in check. Yet here we are, and players in the 50 percentile continue complaining about conditions.

Have you at least read the OP?
Are you trying to say that burning is out of the meta now or you just wanted to go arrogant?

Nerfing conditions when they’re being pushed out of the meta makes no sense. You guys are just behind.

Lopez.7369:

Nerfing conditions when they’re being pushed out of the meta makes no sense. You guys are just behind.

Some of them are just talking about tweaking things to make the game more interesting, not necessarily balance changes.

But on the whole, you’re right. It’s kind of like how people can continue qq’ing about backstab thieves…sure, there are a couple of great dagger thieves that play really well and make their spec look awesome. But it’s not like any team is going to take two of them.

tl;dr dhuumfire necros were OP in July.

Lopez.7369:

Nerfing conditions when they’re being pushed out of the meta makes no sense. You guys are just behind.

Apparently, you didn’t read the topic at all and you just wanted to go arrogant.

The purpose of this topic is to find the reason of why conditions were OP and to find the sweet spot in which conditions aren’t too strong neither too bad. The fact that they are being pushed out of the meta is a flat out lie, even if it matters somehow.

Necromancers are being pushed out of the meta, not conditions.
Spirit ranger is still present in every competitive team.
Guess which one can provide team-wide permanent burning?

Conditions aren’t “too bad,” though. I run a condition necromancer and do really well. (Also, it’s not necessarily that necromancers are being pushed out; it’s that some condition necromancers are now going power.)

The issue before was that people took far too long to adapt and equip more condition cleansing. Now that they have, comps are more balanced and varied.

You’re not fooling anyone, by the way. We both know this thread was made because 90 percent of this forum still thinks we’re in a “condition meta.”

Lopez.7369:

Conditions aren’t “too bad,” though. I run a condition necromancer and do really well. (Also, it’s not necessarily that necromancers are being pushed out; it’s that some condition necromancers are now going power.)

The issue before was that people took far too long to adapt and equip more condition cleansing. Now that they have, comps are more balanced and varied.

You’re not fooling anyone, by the way. We both know this thread was made because 90 percent of this forum still thinks we’re in a “condition meta.”

Necromancer will be completely kicked out from meta by warriors, it is just a matter of time.

The King of the Mist tournament has only few necromancers while a overabundance of spirit ranger, warriors and a fair amount of HGH.

If you took few minutes to read at least the OP, you would have known that this thread is not about “nerf condition” but burning in particular.

I know we aren’t anymore in condition meta, I know we are in warrior meta for a month now. That doesn’t mean that burning doesn’t need to be addressed.

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

sorrow.2364:

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

I have to agree with sorrow, the addition of burning as passive extra damage is very strong.

sorrow.2364:

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

I think you’re a little too stuck on that narrative. Just because I disagree with your idea doesn’t mean I haven’t read it.

Burning is in no way permanent. There’s enough condition cleansing in this game to cope with it. That’s why it’s not a problem.

Condition necromancers aren’t supposed to plow through warriors by themselves. That’s why they have teammates. (By the way, a warrior’s stability is usually to the necromancer’s advantage.)

Relentliss.2170:

I have to agree with sorrow, the addition of burning as passive extra damage is very strong.

Well, it’s okay-ish. If Incendiary powder always procs at exactly 10 seconds on exactly the target you want it to, you’ll get a ~300 dps increase, assuming none of that burn is cleansed or wasted on an already-burning target.

Since it is often cleansed, often wasted on a spirit, often wasted on an already-burning target, and often does not proc at exactly 10 seconds, I’d say it’s good for a solid 100-150 damage per second increase in most situations.

Lopez.7369:

I think you’re a little too stuck on that narrative. Just because I disagree with your idea doesn’t mean I haven’t read it.

Burning is in no way permanent. There’s enough condition cleansing in this game to cope with it. That’s why it’s not a problem.

Condition necromancers aren’t supposed to plow through warriors by themselves. That’s why they have teammates. (By the way, a warrior’s stability is usually to the necromancer’s advantage.)

The only reason we don’t have 3 condition builds per team is because condition cleansing is a lot. ANet went for the easy way to balance conditions: buffing condition cleansing in order to make them counter heavy condition build.

It is an uneffective solution because it results into making mild condition builds and hybrid builds unviable just to bring heavy condition builds inline.
How many hybrid builds have you seen lately? How many condition thieves (which are known to have few conditions access compared to other condition professions)?

I’m not asking for a further nerf to conditions, I’m giving ANet another solution to conditions which doesn’t kill any non-heavy condition build, an alternative to the buffs to condition cleansing.

About Necromancers, you can clearly see that few teams are running them because they are crushed by a focus of a single warrior. No team will bring a profession which is destroyed by a meta build.

sorrow.2364:

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

You dont know what you are talking about, Dhuumfire has an uptime of 2 second every 10 seconds, thats 20% with condition duration, you get up to 4s = 40%. And these uptime is even lower, because you have to crit right after the iCD of 10 sec is over. <40% is not even close to permanent. grandmaster trait

Incendiary Powder on the other hand, has an uptime of 40-80% which is discuss able for an adept trait

Rangers sun spirit need a grandmaster trait to be effective (thats min. 200 less condi dmg or 20% less duration) and they can be killed ~10k live with trait. maybe the burning it applies lasts too long, but again, this is discussable.

But conditions and burning arent too strong. They are fine and can be cleansed, so where is the problem?

We can discuss that some skills need to be rebalanced or numbers tweaked. But stop this stupid risk/reward and conditions are too stong bs.

What is the problem with a 7k burn over 10seconds compared to a warrior F1 which hits you for the same amount instant? The big difference is, that i have <1sec vs 10sec time to react on that damage.

whyme.3281:

sorrow.2364:

Lopez.7369:

Right. Nerfing burning’s would nerf condition builds. It’s also unnecessary at this point.

You’re exaggerating the effect warriors have on condition necromancers in the meta. A balanced comp can use a condition necromancer really well by countering the warrior through other means. (I would also say that most of the teams with necromancers in today’s tournaments played poorly, whether they were using a power or condition build.)

Meta warriors are pretty much everything necromancers hate.
High stability uptime, huge health pool, condition immunity, crazy condition cleansing through cleansing ire and massive amounts of CCs. As a Necromancer, there is no way to counter warriors at all, unless the warrior is really bad.

You are proving again that you haven’t read the topic. I’m asking to remove the permanent burning uptime through passive traits in favour of avoidable non-permanent telegraphed skills, like Throw Torch.

You dont know what you are talking about, Dhuumfire has an uptime of 2 second every 10 seconds, thats 20% with condition duration, you get up to 4s = 40%. And these uptime is even lower, because you have to crit right after the iCD of 10 sec is over. <40% is not even close to permanent. grandmaster trait

Incendiary Powder on the other hand, has an uptime of 40-80% which is discuss able for an adept trait

Rangers sun spirit need a grandmaster trait to be effective (thats min. 200 less condi dmg or 20% less duration) and they can be killed ~10k live with trait. maybe the burning it applies lasts too long, but again, this is discussable.

But conditions and burning arent too strong. They are fine and can be cleansed, so where is the problem?

We can discuss that some skills need to be rebalanced or numbers tweaked. But stop this stupid risk/reward and conditions are too stong bs.

What is the problem with a 7k burn over 10seconds compared to a warrior F1 which hits you for the same amount instant? The big difference is, that i have <1sec vs 10sec time to react on that damage.

Read my previous post.

Dhuumfire has already been nerfed and now it is nearly useless. It should have never been exsisted. I wanted just to analyze why Dhuumfire (when it was 4s) made Necro so OP.

The only difference between 7k burn and 7k eviscerate is that I can dodge the 7k eviscerate, I can’t dodge the 7k burn application. Also, you seem to be convinced that once you apply burning, there are no other cover conditions applied and as soon as you use your condition cleansing, burning is cleansed first. Well, that’s not the case.

sorrow.2364:

Read my previous post.

Dhuumfire has already been nerfed and now it is nearly useless. It should have never been exsisted. I wanted just to analyze why Dhuumfire (when it was 4s) made Necro so OP.

The only difference between 7k burn and 7k eviscerate is that I can dodge the 7k eviscerate, I can’t dodge the 7k burn application. Also, you seem to be convinced that once you apply burning, there are no other cover conditions applied and as soon as you use your condition cleansing, burning is cleansed first. Well, that’s not the case.

First you say, we are all talking off topic and should read post #1 and now your last post, saying something completly different?

Dhuumfire was nerfed, but is the most broken mechanik that you point at in your first post and in the end, its UP? i mean what are you talking about?

reorder your thoughts and come back, this makes absolutly no sence at all.

And by the way, it doesnt matter if burning isnt cleansed first, it can be cleansed, that counts. (I dont know the exact order right now but what does more damage? 8+ bleeds or burning?)

@shimmerles: Ofcourse its important, how much I have to pay for this trait and what it rewards me. Because its pushing me into a playstile of build.

The damage you take from burning, doesnt mean, that it is one skill/trait that aplies burning or bleed. If they name every atack “swing you sword” and “swing it again”, than that would be number 1 and 2. You cant say, because of this order, that condition A is too strong, it is important, how much you paid for this and how it was applied.

secondly, if you play against a condition build and his auto attack would be number one, than there would be something wrong with this game. Complaining about a condition build dealing condition damage, made my day.

whyme.3281:

First you say, we are all talking off topic and should read post #1 and now your last post, saying something completly different?

Dhuumfire was nerfed, but is the most broken mechanik that you point at in your first post and in the end, its UP? i mean what are you talking about?

reorder your thoughts and come back, this makes absolutly no sence at all.

And by the way, it doesnt matter if burning isnt cleansed first, it can be cleansed, that counts. (I dont know the exact order right now but what does more damage? 8+ bleeds or burning?)

You are missing the point.
We aren’t talking about overpowered and underpowered, nerf here and buff there.
We are talking about flawed concepts vs good concepts and how burning fits condition builds.

Dhuumfire is a bad concept and I rightfully pointed out in the OP. They nerfed the burning duration in order to make it nearly useless for a grandmaster trait, but even that, it still is a bad designed trait which doesn’t fit at all into Necromancers. Back when it was 4s duration, it was a broken OP trait, simple and clear.
To give you an example to make easier to understand what I mean, let’s consider a skill that has 2% chance to instantly kill your opponent. It is obviously useless but it is still a badly designed skill. What if you increase the chances to 20%? It would be insanely OP. There isn’t a sweet spot in which those kind of skills are balanced, they are either OP or UP.

Understood?

About burning cleansing, the time you have cleansed it, it is reapplied.

Don’t lead the topic to a direct damage vs condition damage debate.
Condition damage is pressure, direct damage is burst/pressure.
Comparing burst to pressure leads to nothing, they both have their role and their importance into fights. The issue starts when pressure is as strong or a bit weaker compared to bursts on short time intervals.

If you want a game, where on every single Cap-Point we have a bunker that can deal with 2 and more DPS players and can’t be countered by conditions (because they don’t exist in this scenario). How interesting this game will be?

I dont know, what this condition removal thing should show me. Its a fact, that we have condition remove, but no direct damage remove. Every other skill we have against direct damage (dodge, block, invulnerability,blind,…..) also stops condition damage.

@sorrow: so dhummfire instandkilled everyone, it wasnt terror (fear) that made necros OP.

And dont try to tell me, that a skill with 40% uptime of burning can reapply burning, right after it is cleansed. Even with 80% this is impossible.

whyme.3281:

@sorrow: so dhummfire instandkilled everyone, it wasnt terror (fear) that made necros OP.

And dont try to tell me, that a skill with 40% uptime of burning can reapply burning, right after it is cleansed. Even with 80% this is impossible.

I wonder why Necromancers were greatly underused before the Dhuumfire introduction even if Terror dealt way more damage as it is doing now.

Necromancer, along with burning, have fear, poison, bleeding, chill, weakness, cripple and torment. The chances you’re cleansing burning are fairly low.

Spirit Rangers and Engineers, on the other hand, can reapply burning on a regular basis because of spirit procs and bomb. Play some PvP and check which is the most damaging conditions in death briefing.
We aren’t talking about Necromancers only, in case you didn’t know that.

…These forums.

Does anyone realise that a power/crit auto-attacks hit near 3 times the damage of burning per second?

Does anyone realise Engineer have the weakest auto-attacks in game?

Does anyone realise Dhuumfire is a grandmaster trait in a power tree?

The hyperbole in this thread…

Brew Pinch.5731:

…These forums.

Does anyone realise that a power/crit auto-attacks hit near 3 times the damage of burning per second?

Does anyone realise Engineer have the weakest auto-attacks in game?

Does anyone realise Dhuumfire is a grandmaster trait in a power tree?

The hyperbole in this thread…

Why people jump in the topic without reading a single line of it?
This has been addressed multiple times and we’re not going to address this again.

sorrow.2364:

I wonder why Necromancers were greatly underused before the Dhuumfire introduction even if Terror dealt way more damage as it is doing now.

because they did too low damage, compared to any other class.

Necromancer, along with burning, have fear, poison, bleeding, chill, weakness, cripple and torment. The chances you’re cleansing burning are fairly low.

Its the last condition that is applied, that is cleansed first, so if you wait 3 seconds and cleanse then, your fault. It is unimportant which build can apply how many conditions, what counts is, that they can be cleansed, and a cleansed condition means less effect.

Spirit Rangers and Engineers, on the other hand, can reapply burning on a regular basis because of spirit procs and bomb. Play some PvP and check which is the most damaging conditions in death briefing.
We aren’t talking about Necromancers only, in case you didn’t know that.

There will always be a condition dealing the most damage, if we remove one, another will deal the most damage, should we remove this too? Bleed has the potential to deal the most damage, because everyone can apply it with ease and it stacks up to 25 times, not in duration like the rest.

I can repeat myself, we can talk about specific skills and discuss if they are unbalanced but not about “remove the strongest condition out of the game” (but Im pretty sure you didnt said/meant that either).

get clear what you want to adress with your thread, it doesnt matter what people are saying, everything is wrong in your oppinion unless they dont write things like “+1, totaly true”. There is no red line in any of your posts in this thread.
You say, that the problem of conditions is burning name two exapmles and call them broken, later they arent anymore, its something completely different (spirit ranger). If we try to compare conditions with direct damage, we aren’t allowed to, because its not what you want to hear.
If someone wants to explain mistakes in your theory, they dont understand the problem, I think you dont either.

Again, what do you want to address with your post? because it cant be burning.

whyme.3281:

because they did too low damage, compared to any other class.

Their damage was far from low, though.
Most Necromancers who played before the june patch knows that, I know that too. Terrormancer was quite strong even before the june patch, but their survivability was extremely lacking.

whyme.3281:

Its the last condition that is applied, that is cleansed first, so if you wait 3 seconds and cleanse then, your fault. It is unimportant which build can apply how many conditions, what counts is, that they can be cleansed, and a cleansed condition means less effect.

Dhuumfire procs on a skill cast, so does sun spirit and incendiary powder. Burning is applied already covered, not to say that it doesn’t take 3 seconds to have another condition applied.

whyme.3281:

There will always be a condition dealing the most damage, if we remove one, another will deal the most damage, should we remove this too? Bleed has the potential to deal the most damage, because everyone can apply it with ease and it stacks up to 25 times, not in duration like the rest.

I can repeat myself, we can talk about specific skills and discuss if they are unbalanced but not about “remove the strongest condition out of the game” (but Im pretty sure you didnt said/meant that either).

get clear what you want to adress with your thread, it doesnt matter what people are saying, everything is wrong in your oppinion unless they dont write things like “+1, totaly true”. There is no red line in any of your posts in this thread.
You say, that the problem of conditions is burning name two exapmles and call them broken, later they arent anymore, its something completely different (spirit ranger). If we try to compare conditions with direct damage, we aren’t allowed to, because its not what you want to hear.
If someone wants to explain mistakes in your theory, they dont understand the problem, I think you dont either.

Again, what do you want to address with your post? because it cant be burning.

Nobody here has said that he wants burning removed.
You are tilting at windmills.

I’m suggesting to reduce the uptime of burning and to tie its application to clearly teleghraphed skills. I’ve brough the example of Throw Torch multiple times as a good way to add burning.
The issue is not burning itself, but the fact that you can mantain it for so much time that it deals even more damage compared to bleed stacks at a way lower cost. Burning on condition build is supposed to be a bursty addition to bleeding for a short period of time, not the main source of condition damage.

Bleeding has to be built to deal maximum damage through multiple skill casts, burning deals the maximum damage right after its application. Bleeding deals the maximum damage for a really short period of time since stacks tends to end as soon as the cap is reached, Burning deals the maximum damage right after its application.
There is a clear difference in opportunity cost between burning and bleeding.

It is good that condition builds have a way to deal higher damage but only for a short time and easily counterable.

Necromancers have Terror doing the job, which is exactly how it is supposed to be. They don’t need burning at all.

Engineer have confusion and also a little bit of burning too, since confusion it isn’t enough most times. They would be fine if they had their incendiary powder trait removed.

Rangers have a bit higher access to burning compared to Engineer because they lack confusion, but right now they can easily mantain it premanently through Sun Spirit. They should simply swap the active and the passive effect of the spirit.

There we go, now burning is fine on condition professions and they are all equally viable.

Hybrid builds are never going to be viable because there’s no reason to fill a team slot with what’s essentially a role-less player. The entire point of setting up a team is getting specialized builds that bounce off each other to get a bunch of people that are really good at what they need to do. (This is the case in every MMO. People only think hybrid builds are viable until the developers add a competitive mode and suddenly people are forced to scrap their useless builds because people can witness the objectively poor results.)

By the way, necromancers are not crushed by a single warrior. If a necromancer really feels that’s the case, he probably has terrible positioning and teammates.

There seems to be a constant contradiction in this thread: One one hand, you say necromancers are too weak. On the other, you’re asking to directly nerf them. Bizarre.

Lopez.7369:

Hybrid builds are never going to be viable because there’s no reason to fill a team slot with what’s essentially a role-less player. The entire point of setting up a team is getting specialized builds that bounce off each other to get a bunch of people that are really good at what they need to do. (This is the case in every MMO. People only think hybrid builds are viable until the developers add a competitive mode and suddenly people are forced to scrap their useless builds because people can witness the objectively poor results.)

By the way, necromancers are not crushed by a single warrior. If a necromancer really feels that’s the case, he probably has terrible positioning and teammates.

There seems to be a constant contradiction in this thread: One one hand, you say necromancers are too weak. On the other, you’re asking to directly nerf them. Bizarre.

I don’t know if you are serious or not, but your logic seems kinda flawed and baseless to me.

Hybrid builds have a role, that role is sustained DPS damage. The only difference between hybrid builds and any general sustained DPS profession is that the damage output of hybrid builds come from both conditions and direct damage.
Hybrid builds aren’t unviable because they don’t fit any role, the dps role is in any competitive team. Hybrid builds are unviable because they don’t apply the conditions at the same pace of full conditions builds while everyone is built to survive to full condition builds. That means that going hybrid is equivalet to cutting half of your damage for no reason, because the conditions you apply aren’t enough to overcome the cleanses.

I don’t know if you ever tried an hybrid build, but what will most likely happens is that you won’t have enough condition uptime on your enemy while direct damage doesn’t provide enough pressure alone.

Necromancers are crushed by a single warrior, unless they pop Plague or they are far away from the fight (probably what you call “good positioning”). But once the warrior catches up, they are dead. The amount of stuns paired with the pressure and the condition immunity makes Necromancers dead meat. No way to fear them away, snare them or apply weakness.

There is no contraddiction at all in this thread. You are failing to distinguish what I’m saying.
I’ll sum them up to clean every misunderstanding.

1. Necromancers are underpowered survivability-wise. Nobody has asked for a nerf in this aspect.
2. Necromancers were OP when Dhuumfire lasted 4s damage-wise. I took that as an example of bad burning application.
3. Necromancers do not need burning since they already have terror as a bursty condition.
4. Dhuumfire right now is only an useless bad designed trait. The 2s uptime of burning doesn’t make it worth the traitpoints spent into the Spite traitline. It is better to have it completely removed and replaced with something else since, as I’ve already said multiple times, it will always be either UP or OP and Necromancers aren’t in need of a bursty condition.

And that is regarding necromancers.
If you have further understanding problems, point me out what’s not clear.

sorrow.2364:

…

You’re doing pretty good at 1vX forum warring! I tip my hat.

How do you feel about sigil of fire? It functions the exact same way as dhuumfire or IP except it’s AoE, can’t be cleansed or wasted on already-burning targets, and has half the cooldown. It’s just…small, unavoidable, bonus damage.

Also, don’t be surprised that people are focused on balance. I understand that you’re talking about the mechanic itself; but people generally don’t see any need to change a mechanic when it’s not perceived as too powerful or too weak. If I were a dev, I’d also hesitate to change something that’s reached a good balance point just because I thought the mechanic should be a little more elegantly designed.

sorrow.2364:

…

You explained why hybrid builds are bad. Groups have a chance to balance out their strengths and weaknesses through a five-man composition. Why would they fill one of those precious five slots with a mediocre hybrid build that doesn’t excel at anything? Why would they take that instead of filling the DPS roles with a power or condition build that excels at its given role and brings unique utility?

This happens in every MMO: People try hybrid builds and think they’re viable because of solo play. Then a competitive mode comes out, and it turns out the hybrid builds are completely worthless because a jack of all trades is completely senseless in a group setting.

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to tell me, someone who plays a necromancer, that I absolutely get crushed by warriors when I don’t — and I play at a pretty high rating. With the proper cooldown management and positioning, a necromancer can handle a warrior solo — Spectral Armor and Death Shroud easily gets through Berserker Stance — or get peels through a teammate — literally one engineer, elementalist, thief or warrior is enough to get through Berserker Stance. After Berserker Stance is down, it’s a matter of blowing up the warrior. Warrior is definitely a soft counter because it requires the necromancer’s full attention when it’s around, but it doesn’t “crush” necromancers.

Also, Dhuumfire is absolutely worth the 30-point investment in Spite because it’s nowhere near the only ability obtained in that tree. It’s also a decent damage boost and condition coverage. That’s why, by the way, every single condition build gets it without question.

it’s also the aoe factor of most condi builds. You can put the effect on 1 person or 5 and still do just as much dps to the whole team, doesn’t make much sense. They were going to address this back about a year ago (according to what was said on like the 1st or 2nd SOTG).

cuge.5398:

Wanna here something strong about the root issue of conditions ?
They should not be a primary damage source in first place !

Thats one of the core issues of this game, htey wanted to build a new, more generic trinity: dps, control, support instead of tank, healer, dps.
Fact is that we got control (a lot and spammable), support (used to be almost zero, at least its getting some attention recently), direct DPS, condition DPS.

Its not a trinity anymore, cause there are 2 main source of damage, since conditions doesnt just put pressure, sometimes they kill faster than direct damage.

Conditions can be:
> position control : cripple, chill, immobilize, stun, daze.
> dps control: weaknes, blind.
> dps assist: vulnerability, plus all the cc.
> pressure: poison, confusion, torment

stop.

most of things out of this scheme covers a different role, not conditions’ one.
The game would be a lot easier to balance following this.

Try to check your deaths breakdown, most of the times some conditions will be in top place of the list. Its just wrong, unless the fight really took long, instead, i see that even in a fight of few seconds.

With only pure damage to take into account it would be easier to tone down some classes, like warriors wouldnt need an hard counter to conditions aka berserker stance to be brought back into meta. Condition removals could be almost ‘removed’ from many specs, and could be a particular tool, specific for support builds, (like a water ele could be).

We would have some more defined roles, that any class can cover, but at least it will be more clear: the dpser kills, the bunker is the old tank + some support, the condition applier control targets.

Another fact is that this will never change, cause this means a total rework of their game, since condition damage wouldnt have place (as it should be!).

This makes sense – but going on this same train of thought I can see why the devs made the decision to include different “flavors”. It’s a balancing act of keeping classes inline with each other but making them different. Fire magic was never really a “Necro” thing but they needed to give it to em later on to bring them inline with the other condition heavy professions that did “attrition” better then a necro.

At this stage of the game, we can’t remove burning. Period. (Flamethrower that doesn’t burn!?) and I think the devs know that, and thats why that buffed condition removal accross the board. But i think that was the wrong choice.

What we can do, and I think this will accomplish the same thing that you envisioned, is remove condition damage stat and have them scale with power a little bit (by 0.1 …like siphons and +healing).

That post makes no sense at all. Condition — or DOT — DPS is a traditional archetype in every MMO. It adds variety to the game, and a lot of players find it enjoyable.

Zodian.6597:

it’s also the aoe factor of most condi builds. You can put the effect on 1 person or 5 and still do just as much dps to the whole team, doesn’t make much sense. They were going to address this back about a year ago (according to what was said on like the 1st or 2nd SOTG).

Dhuumfire and IP are both single-target procs. In fact, if you toss grenades onto a point, you’re more likely to burn a spirit than a player.

Lopez.7369:

That post makes no sense at all. Condition — or DOT — DPS is a traditional archetype in every MMO. It adds variety to the game.

This isn’t a traditional MMO – seems more of a action game compared to other MMOs. Reducing the DoT damage significantly, increasing the duration, decreasing the amount of removal seems like a better experience. Considering the fact that a lot of abilities that cause dots have a front end power based component anyways..

NevirSayDie.6235:

You’re doing pretty good at 1vX forum warring! I tip my hat.

How do you feel about sigil of fire? It functions the exact same way as dhuumfire or IP except it’s AoE, can’t be cleansed or wasted on already-burning targets, and has half the cooldown. It’s just…small, unavoidable, bonus damage.

Also, don’t be surprised that people are focused on balance. I understand that you’re talking about the mechanic itself; but people generally don’t see any need to change a mechanic when it’s not perceived as too powerful or too weak. If I were a dev, I’d also hesitate to change something that’s reached a good balance point just because I thought the mechanic should be a little more elegantly designed.

Dhuumfire pre-nerf and IP deals overall way more damage compared to Sigil of Fire.
It works pretty much like Sigil of Force, except that you have to rely on RNG to trigger its effect. Not a real problem since it is just a bonus damage which makes sense only on burst builds, where avoiding the burst is what you’re wanting to do anyway.

A flame blast triggering on an autoattack is useless while it is extremely useful during an Hundred Blades, while a Dhuumfire/IR trigger is always tricky.

Lopez.7369:

…

Hybrid build has its own sense.
Burst and conditions have their own counters, building hybrid means dividing the risk through diversification.

If you meet a team comp built around countering conditions, all of your condition builds effectiveness is greatly reduced. If you meet a team built around countering direct damage, then all of your direct damage builds are less effective. That does not apply to hybrid build, who are less harmed by direct counters.
This reasoning makes even more sense when we consider that the only competitive mode in GW2 is conquest which encourages splitting and small scale combats.

Building balanced should be a viable alternative as much as building imbalanced. If balanced isn’t viable, then there is a… well… balancing issue.

About Necromancers, mentioning you experience as a proof won’t prove any point.
I’ve listed multiple reasons of why Warriors crush Necromancers, even the last tournament representation shows that something is happening.
Saying that you’re doing fine with Necromancer against Warriors, as you may imagine, won’t convince me that Necromancers aren’t being crushed by Warriors because, as far as I know, I consider my experience more valuable compared to a stranger’s one.

A logical argument that actually makes sensewould, on the other hand, convince me that Necromancers actually do fine against Warriors and that I’ve probably learned nothing in the 700 hours I’ve spent playing Necromancer.

As the facts stand, the warrior meta build has everything Necromancers hate. High stability uptime (which means no fear damage), condition immunity, great condition cleansing through Cleansing Ire (3 conditions every 5-6 seconds with constant weapon swapping), high HP pool to soak up condition damage, CC to lock down the stability-lacking Necromancer and a lot of direct damage to kill that squishy light-armoured scholar.

The fact that Dhuumfire is taken in every condition build is something you are claiming here, right now, without any factual consideration. The spite traitline offers only condition duration and burning alone isn’t enough condition coverage considering that it lasts only 3s. Otherwise, running 30 in spite, you’re giving up on higher condition damage, Banshee’s Wail and some traitpoints spent for defensive purposes (maybe in Death Magic for staff?). The traitpoint investment and the potential loss is not worth the gain.

sorrow.2364:

Dhuumfire pre-nerf and IP deals overall way more damage compared to Sigil of Fire.
It works pretty much like Sigil of Force, except that you have to rely on RNG to trigger its effect. Not a real problem since it is just a bonus damage which makes sense only on burst builds, where avoiding the burst is what you’re wanting to do anyway.

A flame blast triggering on an autoattack is useless while it is extremely useful during an Hundred Blades, while a Dhuumfire/IR trigger is always tricky.

Man, now I want to log in and test (can’t atm though). Wiki says sigil of fire has a 1.0 coefficient and can’t crit. That should be something like 800-1200 damage per proc on a power build depending on armor, right? That seems consistent with what I remember from times I’ve used the sigil. ICD is only five seconds compared to 10. Dhuumfire should deal about 1200 damage per 10+ seconds. Again, assuming again that the burning is never cleansed, wasted, or triggered on an npc.

And it’s instant and 5-target AoE. It does have only a 30% chance to proc on crit, so the chances of it proccing more than once per 10 seconds are small for most builds. After factoring in real-life dps decreases due to cleansing, etc, and increases due to hitting multiple targets, my low-end estimate would be that sigil of fire deals about 6 times as much real damage in an average match as dhuumfire and 3 times as much damage as IP.

If you don’t like bonus damage in general, that’s fine. But if you just don’t like bonus condition damage, that’s confusing.

JohnCrow.7482:

This isn’t a traditional MMO – seems more of a action game compared to other MMOs. Reducing the DoT damage significantly, increasing the duration, decreasing the amount of removal seems like a better experience. Considering the fact that a lot of abilities that cause dots have a front end power based component anyways..

That’s why DOT damage is sped up in this game compared to others. That’s the case you just made, not that condition damage should be removed.

sorrow.2364:

…

A team built around countering conditions would fall over to the one or two power builds in the typical team. That’s why the meta balances out to balanced comps in the end. That’s sort of what I’m getting at by pointing out hybrid builds are worthless. (Keep in mind that, with the way stats scale in the game, hybrid builds are not just 50 percent power and condition. They’re actually more like 30 percent power and 40 percent condition.)

I actually explained exactly how a condition necromancer deals with warriors just fine. It’s all about keeping range and maintaining cooldowns for when the warrior does get close.

The problem is most necromancers seem to smash their cooldowns, including Death Shroud, and have terrible positioning. You see this even in tournaments, where practically every necromancer spends half the match getting focused or dead because, for whatever reason, they all run into melee range. (One high-rated necromancer once called this his “play style” in a podcast, which made absolutely no sense. A ranged class’s play style can’t be constantly forfeiting the biggest advantage it has.)

That’s not to say there aren’t good times to piano cooldowns and run into melee range, but treading carefully when a warrior is around is a good idea.

That’s also not to say that warriors couldn’t use a few tweaks. Berserker Stance could be reduced to 6 seconds without traits. I also think they should revisit the concept of Berserker Stance and Automated Response only reducing condition duration by 100 percent, not granting immunity altogether.

But the notion that warriors make the game impossible is more a fault in perception and skill than reality.

Dhuumfire is absolutely taken in every high-end condition build, and it’s not just the 30-point trait and condition duration. It’s also Signet Mastery and Chill of Death, which are amazing traits by themselves. (Some people also point to the power and Death into Life, but I think both of those are too small to consider.)

As an aside, do you really not consider higher-rated players experiences when shaping your opinions and perspective? I know that if I played mesmer, I would absolutely consider Supcutie’s opinion as superior to mine. If I played engineer, I would look to Ostrich Eggs and my husband. And on and on. I’m not really sure how anyone couldn’t approach higher-rated players in that way unless egos are getting in the way.

1. if 4s dhummfire is OP and 2sec is UP, it should be balanced with 3sec -> problem solved
2. IP is a minor trait so this would be fine with 2sec -> solved
3. Sun spirit? as you said perma blind for the whole team, would be fine too, he can still burn with a torch -> solved

Thread can be closed

And to your Hybrid build: you have a hard counter and it is called tank. Your conditions are to weak and direct damage is highly reduced. And your also have no defense, because you need 5 stats to be effective and there is no place for defense. Only thing that could work would be the “+ x to all stats” armor. But i don’t think it will be effective.