Guild Wars 2

I’ve been mulling over this topic for some time now. I definitely loved GW1’s PvP and greatly anticipated GW2 so I could, presumably, see a new and improved version with an influx of new players.

GW2’s combat system grabbed my attention right away because character movement is very fluid. You can dodge roll and evade nearly anything. There’s a true z-axis and jumping up onto or behind something is now a possibility. In addition to jumping there’s a number of leap and gap closer style moves built into skills that provide a frenetic a movement friendly feel to playing. It’s glued together with the interface responsiveness one came to appreciate in GW1 and I love maneuvering my character in GW2. The improved mobility is the absolute best new feature of GW2’s gameplay. It allows for the zelda-like platforming feel and ultimately things like jumping puzzles.

However I’ve come to realize it also, unexpectedly, takes away from GW2’s competitive PvP. It does this by making it too easy to avoid an incoming attack, an attack a particular class/build might rely on to be affective. In GW1, the closer you were, the harder it was to avoid a projectile(melee was guaranteed). This meant that players had to think twice before commitment to moving in close. In GW2, commitment is a non issue with gap closing moves like Swoop or Ride the Lightning. Your approach can’t be stopped(if anyone even notices) and you’ll likely escape unscathed as well. I think it’s important to note that armor levels mean something when you have to respect moving into enemy territory. In GW2 not only can pretty much any class safely move anywhere within enemy lines but they all have melee weapons as well. Armor seems to be nothing more than a per class balancing mechanism and, while that might be intended, it contributes to making organized team play feel chaotic rather than controlled and tactical.

Speaking of chaos, it’s very difficult to target an opponent when you have clones, minions, pets and a clusterfutz of players all over your screen. You can tab target, though it might take you a century to get the right one, or you could strain and try to twitch your way to the appropriate target by clicking on-screen. GW1 did have moments where there were too many targets on-screen but it was quite a bit easier to ultimately click the target you wanted if you had to. This is mainly because there was no true z-axis and characters moved methodically, almost like a chess board. They were automatically set apart instead of constantly moving through each other. Sometimes less is more.

Something they added to GW2’s gameplay is line of sight. Line of sight means your target has to be on-screen(or at least within a certain angle of your frontal periphery) before you can use your skills on them. This feature adds a new dynamic that forces you to turn your camera to be affective in PvP.. mainly because the other guy is constantly turning his camera too, to break line of sight. It turns combat into what I call “the figure skating dance” common to most FPS games. In essence your character is moving in circles with your opponent across from you. No one really achieves getting behind the other player, you’re just constantly dancing. It looks totally silly in observer mode and has for decades(since doom probably). Not only is this an annoyance but it did something else to gameplay, unintentionally—I would hope. The problem is this, you can’t rest your mouse hand to activate skills on the far end of the skill bar. That’s huge people, I don’t know if many of you realize how much that changed gameplay from GW1 to GW2.

Now, this is already a wall of text so I’ll end it here… but there are other problems, like skill ambiguity(skill meters and disruption was awesome in gw1), lack of skill depth, lack of team cohesion, the list goes on. I get the hunch that arenanet didn’t appreciate the system they had in GW1… guys, this game is much farther from being an esport than your previous installment.

Well, the fact that barely anyone is playing or watching it sums up what gamers think of it. By any measure, GW2’s sPVP has been a spectacular failure.

It’s not irretrievable but personally I nor people I PVP in other games with will touch it while downed state and conquest are not optional.

I am sorry but a lot of the problems that you list in your post are almost non-existent as problems in game to a player who has played for more than a month.

Particularly striking is the fact that you complain about LoS and centering your character with your mouse and how it detracts from your ability to use your other hand to hit keybinds. That is a non-issue like none other.

Then, under the same post, you complain about how easy it is to dodge abilities (dodging weapon abilities are a different story) and how melee has a huge advantage with gap closers (see: Warriors).

Simply put your diagnoses of why this game has been unsuccessful thus far is incredibly incorrect. It goes hand in hand with the above poster complaining about conquest and downed state. A very large majority of problems that have plagued this game and prevented PvP from taking off have been fixed which is why you’re seeing people come back and tournaments pop up.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I am sorry but a lot of the problems that you list in your post are almost non-existent as problems in game to a player who has played for more than a month.

Particularly striking is the fact that you complain about LoS and centering your character with your mouse and how it detracts from your ability to use your other hand to hit keybinds. That is a non-issue like none other.

The nuisance of having to dedicate your mouse hand to spinning the camera to keep LoS is something I think a lot of players probably don’t think about since they didn’t come from GW1 and I did. As a result, I notice it and it does ultimately alter the way you play the game. The main issue is not that it’s slightly less controllable(and it is), the main issue is that the LoS mechanic doesn’t add anything meaningful other than the aforementioned figure skating dance.. which isn’t too important in my book, in fact.. one might argue it’s a detraction.

Then, under the same post, you complain about how easy it is to dodge abilities (dodging weapon abilities are a different story) and how melee has a huge advantage with gap closers (see: Warriors).

I didn’t say melee had a huge advantage. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite.. melee is at a disadvantage in this game(mainly due to dodging). It is much harder to land melee attacks and hence it’s much harder to land attacks that can’t be spammed and tend to be more important to winning a particular fight(i.e., since you brought up warrior, eviscerate comes to mind). The point about gap closing is that you can’t be tactical about positioning and that no one has to respect position when they can simply leap into a fight, do their business(whether it’s melee focused or not) and leap out. If you don’t understand the relevance of this then you should try playing some organized PvP in a game where positioning matters.

Simply put your diagnoses of why this game has been unsuccessful thus far is incredibly incorrect. It goes hand in hand with the above poster complaining about conquest and downed state. A very large majority of problems that have plagued this game and prevented PvP from taking off have been fixed which is why you’re seeing people come back and tournaments pop up.

Why don’t you try addressing the arguments objectively instead of just stating it’s incorrect?

My gripe isn’t that GW2 is a bad game, it’s not.. my gripe is that it’s a disappointment for people who loved GW1 PvP. It’s a step backward, sorry to say.

why are you letting go of your mouse to press right-side skill bar controls?

rebind them to E R T Q F G Z X C V B or anything within range of WASD.

rebind A + D to strafing instead of turning.

you astutely compared this game to fps titles like doom, but stopped short of trying to play like one.

movement in GW1 was static, clunky, and uninspiring,

one of the reasons I did not play it was because it felt like movement was a step back in technological progress.

Hey there mooty.

I’m a relatively new player here and I didn’t play GW1. Your post seems to have this usual GW1 nostalgia theme to it but in these cases it’s best to realize that even if the game has the same name, it’s a different game.

Regarding the LOS, I do not see it as an issue since it’s a working system that’s actively used in other games. The problem where you say you have to dedicate your right hand to a lot of mouse movement is a personal problem and can actually make people laugh about it a bit since what people usually do is they keybind all their abilities in the controls options in a way that is comfortable for them(I’ve had around 30-40 keybinds set up on my warlock in WOW and I changed those binds quite a few times, had to come up with macros and bind placements where I could use them with every spec without having to change everything every time).

When you say positioning doesn’t matter that much, that would depend on the classes. I play a necro and even though I have my flesh wurm, positioning is very important for me to not suddenly get focused down. I believe that players from every class think about positioning when they play in an organized game of 2 teams. This is not to say that the game actually does have a few classes that are very forgiving to mistakes and positioning.

mooty.4560:

Ostricheggs.3742:

I am sorry but a lot of the problems that you list in your post are almost non-existent as problems in game to a player who has played for more than a month.

Particularly striking is the fact that you complain about LoS and centering your character with your mouse and how it detracts from your ability to use your other hand to hit keybinds. That is a non-issue like none other.

The nuisance of having to dedicate your mouse hand to spinning the camera to keep LoS is something I think a lot of players probably don’t think about since they didn’t come from GW1 and I did. As a result, I notice it and it does ultimately alter the way you play the game. The main issue is not that it’s slightly less controllable(and it is), the main issue is that the LoS mechanic doesn’t add anything meaningful other than the aforementioned figure skating dance.. which isn’t too important in my book, in fact.. one might argue it’s a detraction.

I didn’t say melee had a huge advantage. In fact, I think it’s quite the opposite.. melee is at a disadvantage in this game(mainly due to dodging). It is much harder to land melee attacks and hence it’s much harder to land attacks that can’t be spammed and tend to be more important to winning a particular fight(i.e., since you brought up warrior, eviscerate comes to mind). The point about gap closing is that you can’t be tactical about positioning and that no one has to respect position when they can simply leap into a fight, do their business(whether it’s melee focused or not) and leap out. If you don’t understand the relevance of this then you should try playing some organized PvP in a game where positioning matters.

Why don’t you try addressing the arguments objectively instead of just stating it’s incorrect?

My gripe isn’t that GW2 is a bad game, it’s not.. my gripe is that it’s a disappointment for people who loved GW1 PvP. It’s a step backward, sorry to say.

I can understand why you’d prefer GW1 PvP. GW2 is something entirely different than a lot of MMOs have tried.

As far as the entire of idea of camera movement being a detraction I would substantially disagree. The range of movement and LoS requirements make GW2 PvP far more face paced because it’s more taxing than most other MMOs. I’m not too sure how being forced to center your character for an attack is such a bad thing. Without it, GW2 would simply be boring as hell. Maybe I don’t understand what you’re referencing but the idea of removing character centering is insane.

And positioning DOES matter. I can’t believe you’re hinting otherwise. If you have played this game in a group you’d understand that often times the team that wins a fight takes advantage of a mistake in positioning from the opposite team. It might not be the case without VOIP and with noobish/solo queue group, but it’s easy to imagine that in other games the same thing would happen.

And I HAVE argued about downed state and why it’s good for the game. People aren’t used to it, people rage when they “kill” a player and he gets back up. Why people complain about it is beyond me because once you get past the initial shock of it you’ll realize it’s an incredibly balanced mechanic with more to offer the game with it than without it. That’s especially true given the lack of any dedicated healer in the game.

GW2 is a great game. However, it’s not a great PvP game. The philosophy of GW2 is completely different than that of GW1.

GW1 was designed from ground zero as a PvP Game. The first thing that happened to you when you left the searing starter area is you get forced into a 5v5 RA type PvP Match. Along the strict PvE path in GW1 there were RA Arenas that had level specific caps. The end game in GW1 is HA and GvG. In later years they expanded into PvE with their end game. Heck in the original GW1 release the only way to create a guild was by earning or buying a Celestial Sigil that ONLY dropped from the reward chest in HoH, later named HA. Guild Halls were present specifically for PvP purposes. You chose your Guild Hall specifically to reflect your team composition in GvG. When people talk about GW1 nostalgia isn’t the driving factor. It was the game play and amazing combat system. There were tons of PvP options. HA, GvG, RA, TA, Codex, HB, AB, FA, and JQ. I played with hundreds of people in PvP in GW1. Not a single one of those players is currently actively playing GW2. They instantly saw what GW2 was upon it’s release.

GW2 was designed from ground zero as a PvE game. That’s the problem. PvP is not a main focus. If you have half a brain you can clearly see that every sPvP addition or announcement is really just fluff to keep the current player base playing.

I would say that GW2 PvP players are mostly PvE, PvP hybrid players that enjoy the game for what it is. A video game to pass the time, nothing more. However, there are a handful of hardcore 24/7 PvP players and because there is such a limited PvP Player base they have ascended to almost super star status. In GW1 they would just be another good PvP’er. But here in GW2 they are a somebody. A something special awesome high end PvP Player. These people don’t want to lose this status and will never bite the hand that feeds them. The State of the Games and the few third party tournaments help to keep NCsoft shareholders happy. They can use it as evidence in meetings to show the game is a success worthy of investment. Not just now but also in the future for expansions and eventually GW3, GW4, etc..

Bottom line, the PvP will never be as great in GW2 as it was in GW1. Apples and Oranges. Two very different games and the devil is in the details. I would absolutely love for a developer to provide how many UNIQUE players there were that played in a PvP Game type on this exact # of days after launch in GW1 and in GW2. The difference would be astounding.

Sry to say but comparing the pvp of gw1 to gw2 is like comparing a godzilla to a chicken…..Yes, it’s obvious that unlike its predecessor, gw2 was not built around pvp but mainly pve, and the state of pvp clearly reflects this intention. Yet, gw2 also has that unique, powerful potential to easily become one of the best/popular pvp models in the market should anet choose to dedicate more time and energy into the competitive side.

mooty.4560:

The problem is this, you can’t rest your mouse hand to activate skills on the far end of the skill bar. That’s huge people

In first person shooters, your mouse hand is used only to move the camera, aim at targets, and fire.

This is how GW2 PvP uses the mouse hand, too. It feels natural.

If you click any skill buttons at all, you sacrifice: 1) camera control, 2) movement, and 3) targeting and attacking. That is bad. That’s why all skills have their own configurable keybinds. So, you can set the skills on the far end of the skill bar to be easy-to-reach buttons for your keyboard hand, and your mouse hand can fulfill its duty with camera controlling, movement, and targeting, thus eliminating 80% of the concerns in the original post.

mooty.4560:

commitment is a non issue with gap closing moves like Swoop or Ride the Lightning. Your approach can’t be stopped(if anyone even notices) and you’ll likely escape unscathed as well.

Melee commitment is a very big deal for certain classes like warriors. Once they engage a fight, they’re stuck in the fight until they die. So, your concern isn’t really about melee, but about certain classes and the way they can use melee.

Melee is quite awful in this game when not combined with invulnerability, evades, or a mixture of hard CC, HP regeneration, and a constant outflow of other boons. That’s why melee warriors suck ar’se right now, while melee elementalists, mesmers, and even rangers are quite god-like in comparison to warriors.

What you’re concerned about isn’t necessarily melee gap-closing; it’s the design of these classes’ melee kits. Take away their invulnerability, evades, and boon spams, and they all become just like the warrior: awful for melee. Should melee all degenerate to the level of warriors, while ranged skill sets reign supreme? Or should warriors be brought up to be on par with these other classes’ melee potential?

mjharrison.3209:

Well, the fact that barely anyone is playing or watching it sums up what gamers think of it. By any measure, GW2’s sPVP has been a spectacular failure.

It’s not irretrievable but personally I nor people I PVP in other games with will touch it while downed state and conquest are not optional.

Nobody watches because theres no hype right now. GW2 developers needs to create a tournament and publicly announce it to everyone including pve’ers and hype it up. Then people would watch twitch streams of tournaments.

Right now all you see is random tournaments that only people on the forums know about, nobody who plays the game and doesn’t visit the forums will watch or even know about them.

GW2 has a poor tournament system as well. GW2 doesn’t support and hype its PvP in game.

Theplayboy.6417:

It was the game play and amazing combat system. There were tons of PvP options. HA, GvG, RA, TA, Codex, HB, AB, FA, and JQ. I played with hundreds of people in PvP in GW1. Not a single one of those players is currently actively playing GW2. They instantly saw what GW2 was upon it’s release.

Yeah, I can empathize with that.. most of my GW1 PvP buddies are not playing this game or have a passing interest in it. I’ve been sticking it out mainly because there’s nothing better on the market and having played GW1 at release I realize how much that game was polished over the years. So I can’t be completely judgmental about GW2, it’s only been out a year, but there are definitely game mechanics that I don’t foresee being changed at all.. mechanics that are sort of a deal breaker for strong competitive PvP into the future.

GW2 was designed from ground zero as a PvE game. That’s the problem. PvP is not a main focus. If you have half a brain you can clearly see that every sPvP addition or announcement is really just fluff to keep the current player base playing.

I disagree with this. I’ve played a number of other mmorpgs and they have something in common.. the PvE end game(not progression and solo content, mind you) is so, so much better than GW2’s. I’m mainly referring to team based instance play. This game just doesn’t have it.. but it does have sPvP which is unique in that it’s controlled and it’s a dedicated PvP format(needs more modes, however) and a very, very solid persistent world PvP format in W3. So I see a lot of balance here. I see more in-depth PvE than GW1 had(save team cohesion, classes just made more sense in GW1 and they worked together better).. but also fairly respectable PvP or at least an attempt at it.

I think the problem is just design philosophy.. like a previous poster mentioned, different developers perhaps?

Bottom line, the PvP will never be as great in GW2 as it was in GW1.

Yes.. but no one will bring us another game like GW1 unless we stay vocal about it.

Ostricheggs.3742:

As far as the entire of idea of camera movement being a detraction I would substantially disagree. The range of movement and LoS requirements make GW2 PvP far more face paced because it’s more taxing than most other MMOs. I’m not too sure how being forced to center your character for an attack is such a bad thing. Without it, GW2 would simply be boring as hell. Maybe I don’t understand what you’re referencing but the idea of removing character centering is insane.

It’s actually pretty common.. it was in most every other mmorpg I played except GW1. It was one of the things I loved about GW1 because you were third person anyway, you could see people at all angles… so that you would have to pivot the camera to get LoS never made much sense to me. It’s a joy to move your character one direction and have an automated 180 degree spin to execute a skill and then proceed moving. I can’t tell you how many times I played ranger in GW1 and saw an ele behind me about to use a spell that was dangerous. With a punch of a key my character spun, fired off an interrupt and I kept on moving.

Under GW2’s system, assuming disruption was still an important mechanic(it’s not), I would have to notice it and spin my camera all the way around to view a character I already have targeted(and is likely still on-screen, mind you).. then I could fire off that interrupt and then it might be too late as well. Afterward, I’d have to spin my camera back around to move the proper direction.

And positioning DOES matter. I can’t believe you’re hinting otherwise. If you have played this game in a group you’d understand that often times the team that wins a fight takes advantage of a mistake in positioning from the opposite team.

It kind of matters but only in a vague sense. The more players around(i.e. WvW) the greater risk you’re taking by mob diving, but in smaller fights(i.e. 5v5) the risk is minimal. There are some classes that seem a bit grounded(someone mentioned Necro) but most classes can be highly mobile.

The combat is just not made for viewers (or polished for this)

infight too much useless visuals and not the important things

gw2 teamfight is 99,99% information explosion from everything and even the player by themself ignore whats going on and just fokus on the fokus^^ and spam all they have on the marked target or rez the player they heared in teampseak he is down – not saw by themself

arenanet need to remove most spelleffects from useless spells noone care bout and need to highlight the important things

noone will watch a game when cant see whats going on – and how the heck can they focus on esport and spectate when dont even the players (lower than rank 200^^) see whats going on in a teamfight

mooty.4560:

Ostricheggs.3742:

As far as the entire of idea of camera movement being a detraction I would substantially disagree. The range of movement and LoS requirements make GW2 PvP far more face paced because it’s more taxing than most other MMOs. I’m not too sure how being forced to center your character for an attack is such a bad thing. Without it, GW2 would simply be boring as hell. Maybe I don’t understand what you’re referencing but the idea of removing character centering is insane.

It’s actually pretty common.. it was in most every other mmorpg I played except GW1. It was one of the things I loved about GW1 because you were third person anyway, you could see people at all angles… so that you would have to pivot the camera to get LoS never made much sense to me. It’s a joy to move your character one direction and have an automated 180 degree spin to execute a skill and then proceed moving. I can’t tell you how many times I played ranger in GW1 and saw an ele behind me about to use a spell that was dangerous. With a punch of a key my character spun, fired off an interrupt and I kept on moving.

Under GW2’s system, assuming disruption was still an important mechanic(it’s not), I would have to notice it and spin my camera all the way around to view a character I already have targeted(and is likely still on-screen, mind you).. then I could fire off that interrupt and then it might be too late as well. Afterward, I’d have to spin my camera back around to move the proper direction.

so, what you are saying, is that you want the game to play for you? just learn to play, every other mmorpg “forces” you to face your target manually to cast spells.

That’s the thing here, the core of the game is fast paced combat with lots of teleports and movement. That means, lots of skills per second and people moving all the time trying to avoid Line Of Sight. That means, a mess, really hard to follow.

The same things that made it so unique are the same things that made it very niche and very anoying to watch. Most people that like to play a mess play quake, not a mmo. And from a viewer perspective, it’s the same, i rather watch a sc2 game where i see the development, the choices and the mistake/success of each player, with enough time to talk about it, than a chaotic teamfight of gw2, with it’s cool fast paced fps style.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I can understand why you’d prefer GW1 PvP. GW2 is something entirely different than a lot of MMOs have tried.

What? How is it different?

No dedicated healers? been done before. Dodge-rolling to mitigate damage? Nope, almost every MMO has had skills that provide temporary invulnerability. Aimed attacks? Nope, there’s hardly any in GW2 and there are several MMOs with fully-aimed attacks. The list goes on…

The combat in GW2 is actually not very original at all if you’ve played a variety of mmos before. The only thing I can think of in GW2 that I haven’t encountered elsewhere is combo fields, which I like, but IMO they could have been so much more than they are.

Ostricheggs.3742:

And I HAVE argued about downed state and why it’s good for the game. People aren’t used to it, people rage when they “kill” a player and he gets back up. Why people complain about it is beyond me because once you get past the initial shock of it you’ll realize it’s an incredibly balanced mechanic with more to offer the game with it than without it. That’s especially true given the lack of any dedicated healer in the game.

DS creates a whole bunch of problems and imbalances without actually solving any – it’s a pointless mechanic which has failed terribly, as evidenced by the spectacular failure of sPVP to attract players.

After playing GW2 pvp, I can’t stand other MMO pvp modes. Yes GW2 is not perfect, there are still bugs and tweaks that need to be made, but there is no denying the combat is fun as hell. I wish we had healers though, I miss healing.

Games designed for pve tend to have terrible pvp. Best hope you have is some niche game with no pve at all… hard to focus on pve when it’s not there to begin with.

We basically lack a better infrastructure as we have only Hotjoing/Custom Arena and Free Tournaments.
The rewards are not really rewarding and do not give enough incentive. They are also off from the PvE-equivalents in the amount of effort necessary for get these, which has been mentioned here before I think.
We have some bugs still ingame and the balance is still off though some things depend on skill, teamplay and what the enemy team runs.
Lastly, we are forced to buy Gem-Store-Items with real money if we do not do any PvE or WvW where we earn gold. Dyes are a gamble, they are not a stable incoming.
And I do not include winning any gems from streams as seen for example with the Mist League giveaway yesterday, these guys are a small minority.

So all in all, the combat system and its mechanics are quite decent and players have hope for this game to become esports and there is not a better game on the market at the moment, but that obviously cannot keep everyone here forever.

Shar.3402:

so, what you are saying, is that you want the game to play for you? just learn to play, every other mmorpg “forces” you to face your target manually to cast spells.

I don’t expect arenanet to change this mechanic at all, it’s there for the long run.. but I do prefer a game where this pitfall is avoided. It’s neither fun, nor adds anything interesting to gameplay.. it’s just a nuisance.

That’s a very well written post mooty.

mooty.4560:

Shar.3402:

so, what you are saying, is that you want the game to play for you? just learn to play, every other mmorpg “forces” you to face your target manually to cast spells.

I don’t expect arenanet to change this mechanic at all, it’s there for the long run.. but I do prefer a game where this pitfall is avoided. It’s neither fun, nor adds anything interesting to gameplay.. it’s just a nuisance.

it’s a nuisance to have to be situationally aware of your surroundings to such a degree that you have to actually look at your opponent?

how is it a pitfall to require time critical skills such as camera control and positioning?

is that not part of the challenge of the game?

is the game too challenging for you?

where does that put the pitfall, then, Harry?

nakoda.4213:

it’s a nuisance to have to be situationally aware of your surroundings to such a degree that you have to actually look at your opponent?

how is it a pitfall to require time critical skills such as camera control and positioning?

is that not part of the challenge of the game?

is the game too challenging for you?

where does that put the pitfall, then, Harry?

This is not a FPS game.

We have a third person view where we can not only see behind us .. but we can also keep things targeted that are behind us .. and even target things that are off-screen. So it doesn’t follow that we need to point our camera at these things, it’s just a mechanic that was added in(since GW1) and it doesn’t contribute anything to game play. All it is, is an extra step you have to take to use your skills. GW1 proved quite nicely that you don’t need this extra step at all.

If this was a FPS game then I’d be up in arms that we can track things that are off-screen, but it’s not.

this is not the game for you then, nor is any other mmorpg, sorry mate

Its a subjective thing, really. I always wanted so badly for GW1 pvp to draw me in, but always found it too slow to be engaging and always lost interest after a few weeks.

Having tried/played basically all mmos for pvp in the past 15 years, only in pirates of the burning sea and darkfall did i ever have a visceral AND he-who-reacts-best-wins feel.

All else has been memorizing ‘meta’ and identifying the proper script to execute faster than your opponent.. not very compelling, for me.

Then came GW2. I guarantee I will be playing it still when they pull the plug.

I do worry about how many people share the OPs sentiments.. I’d hate to run out of people to asplode

Shar.3402:

this is not the game for you then, nor is any other mmorpg, sorry mate

Actually I’m still playing it and I still enjoy some aspects of it, although I’m not married it to and I’m open to the idea of playing something better if it comes along. Lesson learned from a long history as a gamer, never get too partial to a game(as many mmo players irrationally are).. you might just be disappointed and you might just be depriving yourself of a better gaming experience, elsewhere. These things aren’t black and white. A game can have flaws and you can still enjoy it but there’s no reason to overlook those flaws as if the game were your own child. GW1 had flaws and most every other game I’ve played and enjoyed over the years had it’s own share of problems. Planetside 1 comes to mind, that game was a mess.. ask any honest person who played it at launch.

If everyone is silent about GW2’s flaws then nothing will get fixed. If I’m silent about my desire to see a new pc title using GW1’s combat system then I’m not helping it come to fruition. That doesn’t mean I can’t reconcile the problems and keep playing GW2.. although I do worry that, as the thread title implies, it’s just too shallow to keep people interested.

sure, a game has many flaws, but having to face your target in a MMORPG is not a flaw

I think one of the biggest issues with the current system of staying power falls into the rewards category. I can ask most anyone in my WvW or PvE guilds and they’ll say the same thing: “Its a lot of fun but I don’t get anything out of it.” Back when we had the bug for the double-laurels reward from the monthly, was when I saw the most people in a long time and the HotM was filled with people.

Fun as it may be, people just need to have something to play for; some shiny to chase after. Adding a gold reward probably wouldn’t hurt but if they want to prevent an inflationary addition (since pvp has no sinks), they could add any number of other things as definite rewards.

Vena.8436:

I think one of the biggest issues with the current system of staying power falls into the rewards category. I can ask most anyone in my WvW or PvE guilds and they’ll say the same thing: “Its a lot of fun but I don’t get anything out of it.” Back when we had the bug for the double-laurels reward from the monthly, was when I saw the most people in a long time and the HotM was filled with people.

Fun as it may be, people just need to have something to play for; some shiny to chase after. Adding a gold reward probably wouldn’t hurt but if they want to prevent an inflationary addition (since pvp has no sinks), they could add any number of other things as definite rewards.

People are different. The first thing that is the most important one is to have fun and that in itself is already enough. Regarding the rewards, if people don’t play cause of the lack of rewards then they were not having any fun or were not interested in the game mode in the first place. The majority of people who play it truly like this part of the game and having a sports interest is enough to keep them going. Cosmetic rewards are also pretty much the go to system for a lot of current games anyways.

Again if you don’t play cause of lack of any non cosmetic rewards, then you don’t like sPVP and you most likely not gonna play that mode unless the rewards outshine the one you get in PVE or WWW that you play.

Iceflame.5024:

Again if you don’t play cause of lack of any non cosmetic rewards, then you don’t like sPVP and you most likely not gonna play that mode unless the rewards outshine the one you get in PVE or WWW that you play.

Its not an issue of not liking the game or that aspect of the game specifically; the issue is that the majority of players are PvX(W). They play a lot of everything but when one of the two things you play doesn’t even tie in to the others… you can quickly see why and how people get turned off from doing it even if they like it. (Not to mention that a WvWer can get their fair share of PvP with rewards without having to worry about PvP.)

Unlike everything else in the game which will work you to a goal one way or the other, PvP is just completely disconnected from the rest for much of the playerbase. Yes, your general PvPer will PvP without needing anything more than what is offered in their microcosm but you can just search this forum for how many people look for more that they can carry over into the other aspects of the game.

With the whole camera discussion I want to make a point.

When designing a game with intents to be competitive, you need to keep in mind a very important duality: Complexity versus Skill Cap.

Complexity is a bad thing, it essentially raises the learning curve and makes games less appealing to watch. Skill Cap is a good thing, it keeps people constantly motivated to achieve so that they can become better at the game. If the game has a low skill cap people will master it and become bored.

The camera mechanic is a high complexity addition with a minimal skill cap addition. That is to say, it is something that weighs heavily on new comers, makes it obnoxious to watch, and most importantly doesn’t add much of any skill cap to the game beyond its initial complexity.

I must also note, however, that Anet has taken to a very particular audience (or tried to.) The original unique audience that GW1 had was essentially forgotten and no game has yet come to save that audience from complete boredom. The audience that Anet went for was the audience that almost every other game has already appealed to, and more importantly they only partially committed to those audiences. If I were an FPS player, I would be interested in the mechanics because they feel somewhat at home, however, if I actually wanted to do an FPS, I’d go play an FPS. It’s not quite the MMO audience, not quite the DoTA audience… If I were interested in any of these games, I would be more interested in playing a game for developers who have committed themselves to me. The audience Anet went after is more of a multi-curious not committed audience, people who haven’t commited to any genre but rather enjoy playing a mix of everything. Which is okay, don’t get me wrong, but no offense to any of you in that audience, it isn’t a very “hardcore” audience.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Anet tried to be unique by attracting every audience under the sun and instead they ended up with a game that feels familiar to everyone while abandoning the most unique game concept I’ve found, GW1.

Rewards are destructive to good, competitive pvp.

You either have the competitive drive it takes to elevate quality of play, or you dont.

Working as intended, imo.

Shar.3402:

sure, a game has many flaws, but having to face your target in a MMORPG is not a flaw

So by your logic, it wouldn’t be a flaw if we had to manually aim at our targets and there was no targeting system at all.

Diage.6451:

With the whole camera discussion I want to make a point.

When designing a game with intents to be competitive, you need to keep in mind a very important duality: Complexity versus Skill Cap.

Complexity is a bad thing, it essentially raises the learning curve and makes games less appealing to watch. Skill Cap is a good thing, it keeps people constantly motivated to achieve so that they can become better at the game. If the game has a low skill cap people will master it and become bored.

The camera mechanic is a high complexity addition with a minimal skill cap addition. That is to say, it is something that weighs heavily on new comers, makes it obnoxious to watch, and most importantly doesn’t add much of any skill cap to the game beyond its initial complexity.

I must also note, however, that Anet has taken to a very particular audience (or tried to.) The original unique audience that GW1 had was essentially forgotten and no game has yet come to save that audience from complete boredom. The audience that Anet went for was the audience that almost every other game has already appealed to, and more importantly they only partially committed to those audiences. If I were an FPS player, I would be interested in the mechanics because they feel somewhat at home, however, if I actually wanted to do an FPS, I’d go play an FPS. It’s not quite the MMO audience, not quite the DoTA audience… If I were interested in any of these games, I would be more interested in playing a game for developers who have committed themselves to me. The audience Anet went after is more of a multi-curious not committed audience, people who haven’t commited to any genre but rather enjoy playing a mix of everything. Which is okay, don’t get me wrong, but no offense to any of you in that audience, it isn’t a very “hardcore” audience.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Anet tried to be unique by attracting every audience under the sun and instead they ended up with a game that feels familiar to everyone while abandoning the most unique game concept I’ve found, GW1.

Thank god.

‘Hardcore’ should be reserved for the important things in life, like family and work, etc..

This game is a good middle ground between the boredom that is FPS and the tedium that is keeping up with ‘the meta’ and practicing the standard ‘anti-meta’ scripts while being handicapped by the software..

Diage.6451:

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Anet tried to be unique by attracting every audience under the sun and instead they ended up with a game that feels familiar to everyone while abandoning the most unique game concept I’ve found, GW1.

I didn’t want to focus on this, but I essentially agree with you. It appears that Arenanet is trying to appeal to a broader audience and that’s the best choice from a business standpoint. Like it or not, the bottom line is important in the video game industry.

Two things to keep in mind, though.

GW1 was no sleeper. It sold several million copies and was very popular from release to probably 4 years in before it started to taper off because well, Arenanet stopped any major development for it. To be fair, it might also have reached a sort of “creative ceiling” from a design standpoint. I’m not sure there’s much more they could have added to it without it feeling over saturated.

Also, I can’t rule out that the developers thought they were making a superior product and were just plain wrong.

Punkins.2087:

Rewards are destructive to good, competitive pvp.

You either have the competitive drive it takes to elevate quality of play, or you dont.

Working as intended, imo.

GW1 rewarded PvP with things that could be used in PvE (especially rare things that could make you very rich), was a venue for unlocking PvE content for a long time, and could make you rather famous by telling everyone in the game when you won in HoH.

mooty.4560:

Diage.6451:

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Anet tried to be unique by attracting every audience under the sun and instead they ended up with a game that feels familiar to everyone while abandoning the most unique game concept I’ve found, GW1.

I didn’t want to focus on this, but I essentially agree with you. It appears that Arenanet is trying to appeal to a broader audience and that’s the best choice from a business standpoint. Like it or not, the bottom line is important in the video game industry.

Two things to keep in mind, though.

GW1 was no sleeper. It sold several million copies and was very popular from release to probably 4 years in before it started to taper off because well, Arenanet stopped any major development for it. To be fair, it might also have reached a sort of “creative ceiling” from a design standpoint. I’m not sure there’s much more they could have added to it without it feeling over saturated.

Also, I can’t rule out that the developers thought they were making a superior product and were just plain wrong.

Well that’s part of the problem. When it comes to making games, you need to choose an audience and go for it. By being a specialized audience by no means implies small. LoL applies to a very specialized audience, as does WoW. If you try to create a game for everybody, you’ll end up with a game for nobody. Anet had the thought that if they tried to make a game for everyone, they would be able to do it.. No one has been able to achieve such a feat, and I am going to go out and say it isn’t possible (opinion, ik).

Point is, by saying GW1 was a specialized audience doesn’t imply it was small, for a matter of fact, if GW2 came out and appealed to the same audience as it did for GW1 I am positive that it could have gone down as one of the greatest.

And towards you comments on GW1, that is not true. There is A LOT that anet could have done for GW1 to improve on it. So many decisions they made ended up increasing the complexity without adding much to skill cap. At the end of the day, the game was essentially far too complicated and the terrible observer mode almost made it worse. My greatest dream was if Anet went for the same audience but created a game with similar skill cap but waaay lower complexity.

And @punkins, the term hardcore is in quotes intentionally.

It’s not that I mean hardcore as in no sleep and constantly doing nothing but that game. More I mean it in the way that the audience would essentially be 100% loyal to it and it’s unique play style. Further, having it appeal to some people who are hardcore in terms of the normal definition is INCREDIBLY important. Those hardcore players are the ones that give people a goal to strive for. I don’t play LoL for the ip, I play it so that I can get better at it. So, I watch and emulate those who are ‘Hardcore.’ Those hardcore players help to form a strong cohesive community.

It was interesting to read your post. As I played GW1 and GW2 both on a high-level, I “kinda sadly” have to agree with your points.

As for me GW2 has a lot of potential, but it gets permanently precluded from success, mostly by the Developments decisions. To start with, releasing GW2 with its PvP in an early Alpha-State, was a big hit to the population. After 1 month my friendlist shrinked from +50 players online a day to about 5. Another point is hotjoin and the failure of a ranking-system without any effort to actually play the game competitive. While you can get a chest with armors you can collect in about a week, the hotjoiner just makes 400 rank-points per game. A last point is the slow development of basic features. Some are here, like the leaderboard or the spectator mode, after 9 months they finally did it . . . But then again, no visible rating, horrible matchmaking. A feature put into an unfinished infrastrucutre.

However, persons who disagree with the OP, haven’t played other games competitive to actually compare these 2 games with eachother.

Ostricheggs.3742:

And I HAVE argued about downed state and why it’s good for the game. People aren’t used to it, people rage when they “kill” a player and he gets back up. Why people complain about it is beyond me because once you get past the initial shock of it you’ll realize it’s an incredibly balanced mechanic with more to offer the game with it than without it. That’s especially true given the lack of any dedicated healer in the game.

Believe you me! I’ve done my share of pondering over the worth of Down State, and I know exactly what it has to offer! And what it doesn’t!

What does Down State offer?
Depth!

What does Down State withhold?
It cripples combat potency!

What should Depth withhold?
Nothing!

I advise the OP to give up. ANET have clearly lost their minds. If it isn’t the failure of the living story, it’s the failure of the underlying game mechanics in spite of the engine they have. There are two likely explanations. One is that the people who made GW1 great have all left. The other is that GW1 was a complete fluke and they never knew what they were doing or how they did it.

Paradoxine.8192:

If it isn’t the failure of the living story, it’s the failure of the underlying game mechanics in spite of the engine they have.

I don’t think either of those failed.

But you also seem to have a massive vendetta against the devs/this game… so, ok?

It’s threads like this that make me fearful for our future as a species.

Vena.8436:

Paradoxine.8192:

If it isn’t the failure of the living story, it’s the failure of the underlying game mechanics in spite of the engine they have.

I don’t think either of those failed.

But you also seem to have a massive vendetta against the devs/this game… so, ok?

I don’t have a vendetta against this game or the developers. I did have high expectations and I do voice my opinions even if they aren’t positive. Take from that what you will.

people thought that Quake broke the FPS formula because you could jump.

guess what, Quake and Doom were different games … made by the same people.

GW1 and GW2 are different games.

Your “high expectations” are misplaced.

How many times do you go see a sequel to a movie and come out saying “well that was good, but they didn’t really do anything different” ? … and here you are saying “it was good, but they did something different and now im all mew mew about it”

do you even know what you want?

I think most of the complaints here are rooted in this action rpg style combat, which gw1 was definitely not.

In a nutshell it adds more of an element of keyboard/mouse dexterity skills to the game, and it comes at the cost of some strategic skill aspect (since you can’t rely on skills always landing).

So frankly I like most of these aspects and I think gw2 implemented them well; it makes the combat more engaging and exciting. That said I can understand that some don’t like that style, especially if you’re used to gw1 combat.

The rage is more about the fact that A-Net promised us they take the good things from GW1 and implement them into GW2, which is in no way true. The second point is to sell a game as an AAA-PvP-Game and then we get an alpha-state game without observe-mode, leaderboard and any infrastructure. Then A-Net with its allrdy slow developement creates things like tickets, paid tournaments and QP’s, which failed completely.
That leaves us 6 months in a PvP-Game without any progression at all. For me A-Net don’t know what they have to actually do, even when the Forum spams them with thousands of good suggestions. This is not a structured concept rather than a chaotic Business-Plan.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I am sorry but a lot of the problems that you list in your post are almost non-existent as problems in game to a player who has played for more than a month.

Particularly striking is the fact that you complain about LoS and centering your character with your mouse and how it detracts from your ability to use your other hand to hit keybinds. That is a non-issue like none other.

Then, under the same post, you complain about how easy it is to dodge abilities (dodging weapon abilities are a different story) and how melee has a huge advantage with gap closers (see: Warriors).

Simply put your diagnoses of why this game has been unsuccessful thus far is incredibly incorrect. It goes hand in hand with the above poster complaining about conquest and downed state. A very large majority of problems that have plagued this game and prevented PvP from taking off have been fixed which is why you’re seeing people come back and tournaments pop up.

I think your criticisms of the OP are fair but your conclusion hasty.

the frequency of gap closers (and openers) still undermines ‘lines of engagement’ and eliminates the chess like feel the OP refered to origionally.

also, while several of us dont have the level of difficulty dealing with clutter that the OP seems to, sorting through clutter isnt an especially fun part of the game. I think mesmer illusions were ill conceived in the pvp setting and suggest an alternate class mechanic, interupts, be available in pvp.

finally about those interupts and cast bars, it’s also quite true that this game lacks in that department, except stomping, which has other issues.

so, while your nitpicks are accurate, i support the OP