Guild Wars 2

Rika.7249:

Oh you! You sly dog, getting all personal!

You’re a donkey too, a stupid ignorant donkey <3

I get these stats from something incredible> Playing the game.
Have you done this yet?

Where did you get YOUR stat about smashing the trebuchet? From your huge ego? Hue hue hue!

You’re also totally not reading all the other arguments, such as the fact that you’re effectively ALWAYS outmanning the enemy team if they decide to use the trebuchet.

But I wouldn’t try to teach you that, it’s like trying to explain maths to a donkey!

Please, come at me with your arguments! And keep up the personal stuff, I’m digging your passive aggressive tone! <3

I’m sure you played all the matches in Guild Wars 2 and you sure are a pro gamer! If there is someone who can spit stats, that’s you! A random guy in the official Guild Wars 2 forum!

The guy on the trebuchet is just a man less in the enemy team! He’s watching his team losing from his trebuchet while figuring out how that big thing works and, if he discovers how it works, it doesn’t matter because you, a real gamer, can dodge all the boulders and all the enemy’s hits while capping points! Please, teach me to be as good as you are, I want to dodge as you dodge and win as you win!

I’m leaving now, I’ve better things to do than arguing with a stranger on a forum. I’m sure someone else will point out all the BS you said better than me and my bad english.

Rika.7249:

So you’ve tried having 5 people in the field, ignoring their treb, and just holding against 4 people? That’s usually how I win.

When they start going for the trebuchet, that’s usually how I lose. Cuz then the mesmer cycle begins, and we’re a man down.

Yes we have. It always comes down to their treb smacking us once and we’re on the backfoot of a team fight. Because one shot from a treb will be 10-14k damage. A lot of teams are running much tankier builds on Khylo. I play every class to rank 35, but i have abandoned thieves, rangers and mesmers because its tookittenboring and skill cap is too low. I can 1v2 on my mesmer like no ones buisness and i dont even have to use Moa. I use a shatter build on my Mesmer with 1800 toughness with 1800+ power using sword/pistol/staff. I currently main a node defender/condi engi, which i find a lot of fun. I have never lost a 1v1 on mesmer other than fighting another mesmer. I still don’t complain about a nerf other than portal for mesmer because I still can beat a mesmer 1v1 4-5/10 times. I have to pull out all stops to kill him though. I say mesmers arent too overpowered because to me engis have a very high skill cap and i have not mastered it.

1)Before any1 start posting on whats op, please read up the class and talk to another player that play that class to understand what is happening or try the class out yourself(pvp is lvl80 right away).
2)Then when posting, post what situation you happen to stumble on that maybe op and why do you think it is op(Please read what others have to say before replying blankly)
3) Then continue to a discussion on the topic not name calling >.

As a mesmer player myself i do agree that moa morph is a bit too much as it morph you for 10sec which practically can’t do anything useful. But i blame it more on the terrible visual cue they have on it. A skill that take 180 sec(if not mistaken) to cd and it has a ridiculous cast time for players to dodge or interrupt it and only single target. All it lacks is a good visual cue on when the skill is being casted.

Mesmer require the player to spent time knowing how to fully utilize them and why not their opponent. Phantasm are our dmg dealer in phantasm build which can be killed in moment(no dmg for a mesmer.). Clones are our toss away illusion for shatter(and for shatter build) and creating visual havoc on screen. All you need to do is look for the real mesmer that not casting stationary and prepare to evade all their clones when their running to you(for a shatter). In group fight mesmers illusion are taken out so easily by splash dmg.

We are not that op as ppl say, just too different and the lack of or terrible visual cue in both pvp and pve makes it hard to fight us.

As for the portal exploit, i not sure if it really that bad. Some one should time and get some number on which is faster placing a portal(which can disappear after sometime) or using other speed traveling is faster. With those details then we can determine whether it is op or whether having a strong defender on the trebuchet also does the job better(which could lead to no trebuchet down or requires 2 players taking it out).

Rika you act like you were “the one that know the truth” jeez, are you working for ANet or something? If people just want to say that this game is unbalanced ( that’s what I think ) let them do so!

For most thief out there, i seen too many glass cannon players that spam heartseeker and hope to win a fight. You should rethink your build and try to find a balance between burst, defense and sustain dps.

Anet need to reduce burst dmg that takes a player health down to almost zero to something that is enough to punish players for not taking utilities that help them dodge or stop a burst(appox 40-50% health instead of 10-20% health from a single hasted burst).

Use the time crafting theories like: Everything in the game is dodgable and therefore anything cant be a stupid mechanic.

Positionin is the key here, and i found it the best to position yourself on this side of the loginserver and already my gameplay improved alot. Sure im not doing that much dmg, but im not getting killed by some hastephenomenom either.

tldr; Never log in and you will never get bursted down.

So far in this thread I’ve seen people complain about Thiefs, warriors, guardians, rangers, mesmers, necros, and elementals. The only solution? Buff engineers.

Rika.7249:

I never claimed I was better than anyone else, and that is why I’m fighting fire with fire.

There are threads EVERYWHERE with people saying “x is op” “y is op”, they get an answer. They reject that answer and say the game is imbalanced and that everyone knows nothing about balance.

That type of crying is common place in pretty much any competitive game regardless of genre. But the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

With certain classes it’s ridiculously easy to succeed. With others it takes more effort. But more still, there are some classes that even with effort come out being mediocre at best. What do you do at that point?

People QQ’d about Heartseeker because it was literally mashing one button to win. Contrast that to an Elementalist, that has to go through rotations and switch forms to kill someone. It’s not just about skill. It’s about the effort required to achieve the same end means. That’s what some people are complaining about. That part isn’t really balanced.

And then look at the Necromancer. The best thing you can do is spread AIDS via epidemic. You can spec tanky and soak up hits, but you hit like a wet noodle and lack the necessary tools to even pressure someone. If you spec into conditions, other classes can apply more conditions faster than you, while also having better survivability than you (inb4 l2Death Shroud). If you try to go toe-to-toe with melee classes, you’re gonna have a bad time, because you don’t have the burst they do, nor the survivability that they do. There are instances of Necromancers succeeding, but how much of that is depending on one player simply being more skilled than the other?

I don’t think the game is in a particularly bad shape balance wise. Though some classes need a lot more work (bug fixes) than others. Player input does play an issue, but some classes are inherently easier to succeed with than others, and I think that part needs some more tweaking

Guardian
Mesmer
Thief

All need slight nerfs

Necro
Ranger
Warrior
Engineer

Are fine.

Elementalist needs small buff.

ChicoDaMan.1578:

So far in this thread I’ve seen people complain about Thiefs, warriors, guardians, rangers, mesmers, necros, and elementals. The only solution? Buff engineers.

What thread had anyone at any time complain about the Necro? Other than that they are UP.

@OP keep telling yourself that, keep telling yourself that 12k+ backstabs followed by 9k+ heartseekers on 3k toughness is strategic planning, bottom line the Thief’s burst needs a massive nerf, I say a good 50% nerf and this is because they have no cooldown unlike the rest of the classes.

As for Mesmesr this class is legal botting no matter how you look at it, you create clones/phantasms and they do all the work for you, they need to make it that a player can not lose target vs a Mesmer and also lower the clone/phantasm damage by allot but increase the Mesmers direct damage so the class isn’t a ArenaNet certified botting program.

This game is new and i’m sure there will allot of tweeks to come, so before you go all irrational learn to use logic and reason and whats best for the game as a whole not what best for “me,me,me”.

Thief’s are so not balanced and here’s a vid that proves it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ
Dude does not even bother picking any of the major traits just leaves them blank and enters a game and just eats people. I gotta agree that something should be done to increase the skill lvl needed to play one. I almost always roll the stealth class, but I cant take any pride in a kill that requires no skill, thus I can’t justify playing a thief even though it’s the profession I’ve been playing for years.

Can guradians/mesmers please stop posting BS in this thread! You are destroying our game by denying what everyone knows to be true. Yeah, you know what Im talking about… Just accept that you will be nerfed and this game might be balanced and fun again.

It’s people that keep saying “X” is destroying/ruining/killing the game that show just how narrow their view of things really is, and how entitled their attitude is.

The game isn’t dying, you’re frustrated but thousands aren’t, you’re bored but thousands are enjoying it, you’re complaining but thousands are learning to get better and counter other classes reguardless of if they think it’s “OP” or not.

-You- do not affect this game singularly, if a class gets nerfed it is based on data, not Anet suddenly saying “oh noes this kid is going to quit our game! hurry, nerf whatever he wants!”.

Warjin.8942:

@OP keep telling yourself that, keep telling yourself that 12k+ backstabs followed by 9k+ heartseekers on 3k toughness is strategic planning, bottom line the Thief’s burst needs a massive nerf, I say a good 50% nerf and this is because they have no cooldown unlike the rest of the classes.

As for Mesmesr this class is legal botting no matter how you look at it, you create clones/phantasms and they do all the work for you, they need to make it that a player can not lose target vs a Mesmer and also lower the clone/phantasm damage by allot but increase the Mesmers direct damage so the class isn’t a ArenaNet certified botting program.

This game is new and i’m sure there will allot of tweeks to come, so before you go all irrational learn to use logic and reason and whats best for the game as a whole not what best for “me,me,me”.

50%…lol

the problem is damage stacking, not hte class itself, look at the tooltip for our damage skills, other classes have skills that hit just as hard, when you stack all that power/crit and gruop buffs/self buffs, your gonna get stupid damage. this means either damage needs nerfed ACROSS THE BOARD for all classes, or we need to adjust damage stacking.

Wolfe.3097:

50%…lol

the problem is damage stacking, not hte class itself, look at the tooltip for our damage skills, other classes have skills that hit just as hard, when you stack all that power/crit and gruop buffs/self buffs, your gonna get stupid damage. this means either damage needs nerfed ACROSS THE BOARD for all classes, or we need to adjust damage stacking.

You have no idea of the situation if you say that every profession can hit as hard as a thief do.
Try the Necromancer or the Elementalist, spec them with full crits/power, join a game and see how stupid the damage is. Consider also the time you take to make that damage.

Arcane.4950:

Guardian
Mesmer
Thief

All need slight nerfs

Necro
Ranger
Warrior
Engineer

Are fine.

Elementalist needs small buff.

hmm let’s say the do in the right way, i can deal with this. just hoping they dont nerf to death these 3 classes and make the rest op, or the game die.

I think it is hard to assess where the necro class’ power level is. At the moment it feels underpowered but that stems also from the fact that the class has ca. 100 bugs (that was the last count when I read the thread).

And sure, some traits are in weird places and some designs parts of the class suffer from a terrible lack of synergy

Most of all, though, pets are running on Artificial Idiocy, die quite easily and cannot be really controlled. In short: worst pet system I have seen in any mmo so far.

Maybe if all those things are fixed a true assessment can be made.

Because of the versatility of different builds, you can’t say that any one class is “OP” in it’s entirety. There will always be several factors(runes,sigils,trait allocation,etc.) that makes a profession seem overpowered. I have played the guardian(mostly a bunker build) quite a bit, and I am consistently humbled by people who play against me correctly. In my opinion, you should always be making slight adjustments to your build on the fly if you notice something isn’t working, so I completely agree with the OP here. I am not saying that the game is in a perfect place balance wise, but many of the issues people have with classes like thieves, mesmers, and guardians can all be mended by simply playing better and not wasting time charging towards the forums in a mob with pitchforks in hand to whine about balance.

LonelyReaper.8075:

I play a mesmer. I know deep down it’s overpowered because despite being a poor-mediocre player in every other game i’ve tried i’m having alot of success with the Mesmer and rather than admit it’s because the abilities are way out of whack balance wise I want to attribute it to me being very skilled all of a sudden when I wasn’t before.

So I will point out obvious ways to beat the Mesmer like killing his phantasms first and dodging moa and so on but failing to point out the entire time the mesmer is nuking the hell out of me and throwing up more phantasms/clones.

Also I seem to think that being able to teleport instantly to the treb in khylo to repair is as fast as picking up a repair kit and running to the treb….

There, that’s better.

Playing to Win

I’m just going to leave this here.

…

Actually no I’m not. Or at least, not by itself. That article (or series of articles, if you browse around Sirlin’s site) should be required reading for anyone who wants to PVP in any game, ever. Regardless of where you stand on balance in this particular game, and regardless of what you think about what else I have to say, if you read the rest of this post at all, I strongly recommend you take five minutes and at least look at the article.

For people getting rolled by other professions, you must at least consider the possibility that what you’re perceiving as an imbalance is less a result of the game design than of your own unwillingness to devote the energy to overcoming the profession/build/etc. that’s beating you. That may be a high cost; in the case of Mesmers, I’ll gladly concede that the profession demands a great amount of concentration, spatial awareness, and quick-thinking from its opponents, moreso than most others, and it’s an open question whether those demands make the profession unfair. Moreover, some builds naturally have a harder time against other builds, especially as your traits and skills get more specialized (e.g., anti-condition guardian). But before you determine that a matchup is patently unwinnable, I think you owe yourself a duty to make sure that you’ve taken your efforts as far as they can go, reasonably or otherwise. For your profession/build of choice, what does it take for you to beat the profession that gives you the most trouble? Why aren’t you doing that?

I don’t presume to have a high-level view of sPVP in this game, and a lot of you guys have no doubt played a lot more PVP than I have. It’s entirely possible that Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians will see nerfs—maybe as soon as in tonight’s update. But whether that happens or not, that’s not going to be the end of this conversation, because the nature of inter-class balance is that somebody’s always going to be on top. Hopefully the disparity between the best class and the worst class will be small—the point of patching is to close that margin, after all—but it’s never going to go away without homogenizing all eight professions.

Once the dust settles and the Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians are all left in crumpled heaps at the feet of Balthazar, someone’s going to raise the banner to topple the Warriors, Rangers, and Engineers. Once they’ve been nerfed, it’ll be the Black Summer for a while, and after that age, Elementalists will reign supreme. Until they’re nerfed.

In the mean time, however, all the players that are actually improving in PVP, getting better at their chosen professions, and making their marks in the growing esports communities will be improving their strategies and weathering the tides of balance changes not unaffected, but at least undaunted. These guys learned how to consistently interrupt Moa Morph long before it was nerfed. They never had any trouble sticking to the real Mesmer even back when he had three illusions and his phantasms did damage. They learned how to punish thieves for heartseekering one too many times, and they always packed an extra set of weapons so they could switch to conditions if a fight demanded it. They didn’t bat an eye when the guardians got their healing cut in half, and they already knew how to handle conditions, so they never missed a beat when the necros were 7 out of every 10 players in PVP for a while there.

If you want to complain, there’ll never be a shortage of other professions to complain about, and there will always be a matchup that’s unfavorable for your chosen playstyle—in fact, there’ll be several at any given time. But you can’t take it for granted that the balance team is going to fix something you perceive to be unfair, and the meta that exists right this second is almost certainly not going to exist in a month, nerfs or no nerfs. There’s always going to be something that makes you angry, especially in PVP, and if it’s not Moa Morph, it’ll be something else. You must accept the fact that, at least right this second, the game is actually the way it is, and if you want to play Guild Wars 2, you have to actually play Guild Wars 2, and not some other game you made up in your head in which all bugs are fixed, all enemy moves are perfectly telegraphed, and you’re always more skilled than the other guy.

I know this comes across sounding high-handed, and honestly I’m not sure how I could make it sound more conciliatory and still get the point across, but this issue I believe is the gateway from this conversation to the one we’d all rather be having about balance, and the one that ArenaNet’s developers have already been having for some time now.

sorrow.2364:

Wolfe.3097:

50%…lol

the problem is damage stacking, not hte class itself, look at the tooltip for our damage skills, other classes have skills that hit just as hard, when you stack all that power/crit and gruop buffs/self buffs, your gonna get stupid damage. this means either damage needs nerfed ACROSS THE BOARD for all classes, or we need to adjust damage stacking.

You have no idea of the situation if you say that every profession can hit as hard as a thief do.
Try the Necromancer or the Elementalist, spec them with full crits/power, join a game and see how stupid the damage is. Consider also the time you take to make that damage.

I think he may have a good point though sorrow it’s not the skill damage that is as much a problem as the stacking effects, boons haste etc. that creates more of a problem than the damage the skill would do without it. Hell I’ve been pistol whipped from 3/4 health and stomped on before I could really react due to haste, if there was a limit on what boons, skills you could stack it may improve the situation. Just my options ofc.

Xhieron.2168:

Playing to Win

I’m just going to leave this here.

…

Actually no I’m not. Or at least, not by itself. That article (or series of articles, if you browse around Sirlin’s site) should be required reading for anyone who wants to PVP in any game, ever. Regardless of where you stand on balance in this particular game, and regardless of what you think about what else I have to say, if you read the rest of this post at all, I strongly recommend you take five minutes and at least look at the article.

For people getting rolled by other professions, you must at least consider the possibility that what you’re perceiving as an imbalance is less a result of the game design than of your own unwillingness to devote the energy to overcoming the profession/build/etc. that’s beating you. That may be a high cost; in the case of Mesmers, I’ll gladly concede that the profession demands a great amount of concentration, spatial awareness, and quick-thinking from its opponents, moreso than most others, and it’s an open question whether those demands make the profession unfair. Moreover, some builds naturally have a harder time against other builds, especially as your traits and skills get more specialized (e.g., anti-condition guardian). But before you determine that a matchup is patently unwinnable, I think you owe yourself a duty to make sure that you’ve taken your efforts as far as they can go, reasonably or otherwise. For your profession/build of choice, what does it take for you to beat the profession that gives you the most trouble? Why aren’t you doing that?

I don’t presume to have a high-level view of sPVP in this game, and a lot of you guys have no doubt played a lot more PVP than I have. It’s entirely possible that Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians will see nerfs—maybe as soon as in tonight’s update. But whether that happens or not, that’s not going to be the end of this conversation, because the nature of inter-class balance is that somebody’s always going to be on top. Hopefully the disparity between the best class and the worst class will be small—the point of patching is to close that margin, after all—but it’s never going to go away without homogenizing all eight professions.

Once the dust settles and the Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians are all left in crumpled heaps at the feet of Balthazar, someone’s going to raise the banner to topple the Warriors, Rangers, and Engineers. Once they’ve been nerfed, it’ll be the Black Summer for a while, and after that age, Elementalists will reign supreme. Until they’re nerfed.

In the mean time, however, all the players that are actually improving in PVP, getting better at their chosen professions, and making their marks in the growing esports communities will be improving their strategies and weathering the tides of balance changes not unaffected, but at least undaunted. These guys learned how to consistently interrupt Moa Morph long before it was nerfed. They never had any trouble sticking to the real Mesmer even back when he had three illusions and his phantasms did damage. They learned how to punish thieves for heartseekering one too many times, and they always packed an extra set of weapons so they could switch to conditions if a fight demanded it. They didn’t bat an eye when the guardians got their healing cut in half, and they already knew how to handle conditions, so they never missed a beat when the necros were 7 out of every 10 players in PVP for a while there.

If you want to complain, there’ll never be a shortage of other professions to complain about, and there will always be a matchup that’s unfavorable for your chosen playstyle—in fact, there’ll be several at any given time. But you can’t take it for granted that the balance team is going to fix something you perceive to be unfair, and the meta that exists right this second is almost certainly not going to exist in a month, nerfs or no nerfs. There’s always going to be something that makes you angry, especially in PVP, and if it’s not Moa Morph, it’ll be something else. You must accept the fact that, at least right this second, the game is actually the way it is, and if you want to play Guild Wars 2, you have to actually play Guild Wars 2, and not some other game you made up in your head in which all bugs are fixed, all enemy moves are perfectly telegraphed, and you’re always more skilled than the other guy.

I know this comes across sounding high-handed, and honestly I’m not sure how I could make it sound more conciliatory and still get the point across, but this issue I believe is the gateway from this conversation to the one we’d all rather be having about balance, and the one that ArenaNet’s developers have already been having for some time now.

The link you provided was the best read I have ever had.
Thank you.

Knyx.5926 -

In response to your “You only see 1.3rd of the game by doing just spvp.”

I bought the game only for spvp and nothing else. In gw1 I was happy with just the pvp and played nothing else other than with free max levels.

For the most part we don’t even care about experiencing other parts of the game. WvW is a kitteny format to begin with, look at all the wvw players from other games wvw kittening at anet probably just like they were kittening on other games forums because the design of that format itself, is prettykittentrashy.

PvE is nothing like spvp, it can be a very repetitive grind.

Spvp format which it may sound like I am sticking up for (because that is my kind of pvp) is not a good format either and I don’t like it at all. Persistantly you will be going somewhere and end up with 5 people chasing you and you just have to run until they catch you and kill you. It’s always uneven battles never a full on 5v5 8v8 etc. It’s jsut a bad pvp format ESPECIALLY for being the one for tournaments.

I played a few games on ele, but rtl is too bugged to be viable, then played the thief for two matches, that’s all of this kitten I can play for the rest of this month and next month.

Mesmer should have been a very high skill leveled profession using crowd control to maneuver out of sticky situations, and to mess with the enemies combat strategies. They just kitten up mesmers concept big time. All the illusion spawning stuff and shattering stuff should be tied into the illusion trait, and partially the chaos trait. This does a lot more than what meets the surface by just reading it (think of spreading traits for desired builds). It could also open us up to a real mesmer having a chance at coming into the game if the traits are redesigned with one extra weapon set for control.

Xhieron.2168:

Playing to Win

I’m just going to leave this here.

…

Actually no I’m not. Or at least, not by itself. That article (or series of articles, if you browse around Sirlin’s site) should be required reading for anyone who wants to PVP in any game, ever. Regardless of where you stand on balance in this particular game, and regardless of what you think about what else I have to say, if you read the rest of this post at all, I strongly recommend you take five minutes and at least look at the article.

For people getting rolled by other professions, you must at least consider the possibility that what you’re perceiving as an imbalance is less a result of the game design than of your own unwillingness to devote the energy to overcoming the profession/build/etc. that’s beating you. That may be a high cost; in the case of Mesmers, I’ll gladly concede that the profession demands a great amount of concentration, spatial awareness, and quick-thinking from its opponents, moreso than most others, and it’s an open question whether those demands make the profession unfair. Moreover, some builds naturally have a harder time against other builds, especially as your traits and skills get more specialized (e.g., anti-condition guardian). But before you determine that a matchup is patently unwinnable, I think you owe yourself a duty to make sure that you’ve taken your efforts as far as they can go, reasonably or otherwise. For your profession/build of choice, what does it take for you to beat the profession that gives you the most trouble? Why aren’t you doing that?

I don’t presume to have a high-level view of sPVP in this game, and a lot of you guys have no doubt played a lot more PVP than I have. It’s entirely possible that Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians will see nerfs—maybe as soon as in tonight’s update. But whether that happens or not, that’s not going to be the end of this conversation, because the nature of inter-class balance is that somebody’s always going to be on top. Hopefully the disparity between the best class and the worst class will be small—the point of patching is to close that margin, after all—but it’s never going to go away without homogenizing all eight professions.

Once the dust settles and the Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians are all left in crumpled heaps at the feet of Balthazar, someone’s going to raise the banner to topple the Warriors, Rangers, and Engineers. Once they’ve been nerfed, it’ll be the Black Summer for a while, and after that age, Elementalists will reign supreme. Until they’re nerfed.

In the mean time, however, all the players that are actually improving in PVP, getting better at their chosen professions, and making their marks in the growing esports communities will be improving their strategies and weathering the tides of balance changes not unaffected, but at least undaunted. These guys learned how to consistently interrupt Moa Morph long before it was nerfed. They never had any trouble sticking to the real Mesmer even back when he had three illusions and his phantasms did damage. They learned how to punish thieves for heartseekering one too many times, and they always packed an extra set of weapons so they could switch to conditions if a fight demanded it. They didn’t bat an eye when the guardians got their healing cut in half, and they already knew how to handle conditions, so they never missed a beat when the necros were 7 out of every 10 players in PVP for a while there.

If you want to complain, there’ll never be a shortage of other professions to complain about, and there will always be a matchup that’s unfavorable for your chosen playstyle—in fact, there’ll be several at any given time. But you can’t take it for granted that the balance team is going to fix something you perceive to be unfair, and the meta that exists right this second is almost certainly not going to exist in a month, nerfs or no nerfs. There’s always going to be something that makes you angry, especially in PVP, and if it’s not Moa Morph, it’ll be something else. You must accept the fact that, at least right this second, the game is actually the way it is, and if you want to play Guild Wars 2, you have to actually play Guild Wars 2, and not some other game you made up in your head in which all bugs are fixed, all enemy moves are perfectly telegraphed, and you’re always more skilled than the other guy.

I know this comes across sounding high-handed, and honestly I’m not sure how I could make it sound more conciliatory and still get the point across, but this issue I believe is the gateway from this conversation to the one we’d all rather be having about balance, and the one that ArenaNet’s developers have already been having for some time now.

That is a good read.

Thinking anet will balance this is just insane.

That post after reading parts of the middle seems like they think anet is aiming for guildwars 1 type balance. It’s just not going to happen until they add in the real pvp formats. Then and only then will that type of balance go into place (FOR those formats ONLY).

since it will not let me edit my post.

That was a good read. Yes there will be nerfs and buffs there always are. Even if they get the game “balanced” They will still nerf and buff stuff. They have to do this just to change the meta game. If they didn’t do this than high level pvp would stagnate and no one would play.

R E F L H E X.8413:

Thinking anet will balance this is just insane.

That post after reading parts of the middle seems like they think anet is aiming for guildwars 1 type balance. It’s just not going to happen until they add in the real pvp formats. Then and only then will that type of balance go into place (FOR those formats ONLY).

And that is part of the problem. With out a ranking system there is no way for any type of meta game to form. Its funny they want to wait until after its balanced to add ranking but as soon as they add ranking it will show what is balanced.

I play most of the time mesmer, engineer and necromancer.

OP you seriously believe you can do the same thing with a necromancer that you can do with a mesmer? Its like playing another game.

@R E F L H E X.8413

1/3rd not 1.3rd.
It is perfectly fine if you only bought the game for spvp and that is all you do.
You still are only experiencing roughly 33% of the game even if you get to top rank in spvp and get every piece in your locker.

If I buy a game that has single player, head to head multiplayer, and a co-op zombie mode. I only play the co-op zombie mode, can I legitimately claim to have experienced the entire game and know what needs to be fixed? of course not.

Obviously this is the spvp forum, but I see a heck of a lot of nerf this, buff that threads or sarcastic balance requests from people that not only just do spvp and nothing else, but 90% of the time the problems they asking to be solved by A-net, could be solved by themselves.

The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. These are the people that even if all they do is spvp, spend all the time they need to test build after build. The end result, is every single time, they find a counter to every other build out there. At the same time the people that come on here that complain, do not want to have to spend that time they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. They want ALL possible the viable builds and counters in the game to be plastered on a website with some easy reading and tutorials (maybe some pictures too) from the get go.

I will admit there are quite a few bugs for each class to bear, and I have faith they will be fixed before (anymore) balance changes commence, because they should have been before (any) balance changes were made in the first place. Sure there might be some tweaks to non bugged abilities or talents, or abilities that do not make sense with the class design at all (like self rooting on an ability on a mobility based class ex:PW), but other then that, it is not doom and gloom unbalanced like everyone seems to make it out to be, not even close. Since all balance changes A-net is known for, and has made already are sweeping (effecting spvp+wvwvw+pve) they will balance it based on all 3.

I will give you an example:
If a class 1shots everyone in spvp, can have perma protection and 30k hp. However in PVE up against the end game mobs and bosses this same class is weaker then all the other classes in every way, and in wvwvw also gets exceeded by every other class. Nerfing them because of spvp, will mean you will never see that class at least outside of mists so why make it an option to level up/wvwvw in the first place.

They spent a lot of time and money (Resources) on PVE and wvwvw. Saying they are going to balance around spvp only makes you look very naive, and it also is insulting to A-net since you think all those resources were wasted.

Rika.7249:

Xhieron.2168:

Playing to Win

I’m just going to leave this here.

…

The link you provided was the best read I have ever had.
Thank you.

the literary world just gave a collective sigh

Knyx.5926:

@R E F L H E X.8413

1/3rd not 1.3rd.
It is perfectly fine if you only bought the game for spvp and that is all you do.
You still are only experiencing roughly 33% of the game even if you get to top rank in spvp and get every piece in your locker.

If I buy a game that has single player, head to head multiplayer, and a co-op zombie mode. I only play the co-op zombie mode, can I legitimately claim to have experienced the entire game and know what needs to be fixed? of course not.

Obviously this is the spvp forum, but I see a heck of a lot of nerf this, buff that threads or sarcastic balance requests from people that not only just do spvp and nothing else, but 90% of the time the problems they asking to be solved by A-net, could be solved by themselves.

The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. These are the people that even if all they do is spvp, spend all the time they need to test build after build. The end result, is every single time, they find a counter to every other build out there. At the same time the people that come on here that complain, do not want to have to spend that time they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. They want ALL possible the viable builds and counters in the game to be plastered on a website with some easy reading and tutorials (maybe some pictures too) from the get go.

I will admit there are quite a few bugs for each class to bear, and I have faith they will be fixed before (anymore) balance changes commence, because they should have been before (any) balance changes were made in the first place. Sure there might be some tweaks to non bugged abilities or talents, or abilities that do not make sense with the class design at all (like self rooting on an ability on a mobility based class ex:PW), but other then that, it is not doom and gloom unbalanced like everyone seems to make it out to be, not even close. Since all balance changes A-net is known for, and has made already are sweeping (effecting spvp+wvwvw+pve) they will balance it based on all 3.

I will give you an example:
If a class 1shots everyone in spvp, can have perma protection and 30k hp. However in PVE up against the end game mobs and bosses this same class is weaker then all the other classes in every way, and in wvwvw also gets exceeded by every other class. Nerfing them because of spvp, will mean you will never see that class at least outside of mists so why make it an option to level up/wvwvw in the first place.

They spent a lot of time and money (Resources) on PVE and wvwvw. Saying they are going to balance around spvp only makes you look very naive, and it also is insulting to A-net since you think all those resources were wasted.

They have stated that they are balancing the game around tPVP. So it kind of makes you look silly. And that if they have to they will split the abilities between pve and pvp.

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

Knyx.5926:

@R E F L H E X.8413

1/3rd not 1.3rd.
It is perfectly fine if you only bought the game for spvp and that is all you do.
You still are only experiencing roughly 33% of the game even if you get to top rank in spvp and get every piece in your locker.

If I buy a game that has single player, head to head multiplayer, and a co-op zombie mode. I only play the co-op zombie mode, can I legitimately claim to have experienced the entire game and know what needs to be fixed? of course not.

Obviously this is the spvp forum, but I see a heck of a lot of nerf this, buff that threads or sarcastic balance requests from people that not only just do spvp and nothing else, but 90% of the time the problems they asking to be solved by A-net, could be solved by themselves.

The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. These are the people that even if all they do is spvp, spend all the time they need to test build after build. The end result, is every single time, they find a counter to every other build out there. At the same time the people that come on here that complain, do not want to have to spend that time they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. They want ALL possible the viable builds and counters in the game to be plastered on a website with some easy reading and tutorials (maybe some pictures too) from the get go.

I will admit there are quite a few bugs for each class to bear, and I have faith they will be fixed before (anymore) balance changes commence, because they should have been before (any) balance changes were made in the first place. Sure there might be some tweaks to non bugged abilities or talents, or abilities that do not make sense with the class design at all (like self rooting on an ability on a mobility based class ex:PW), but other then that, it is not doom and gloom unbalanced like everyone seems to make it out to be, not even close. Since all balance changes A-net is known for, and has made already are sweeping (effecting spvp+wvwvw+pve) they will balance it based on all 3.

I will give you an example:
If a class 1shots everyone in spvp, can have perma protection and 30k hp. However in PVE up against the end game mobs and bosses this same class is weaker then all the other classes in every way, and in wvwvw also gets exceeded by every other class. Nerfing them because of spvp, will mean you will never see that class at least outside of mists so why make it an option to level up/wvwvw in the first place.

They spent a lot of time and money (Resources) on PVE and wvwvw. Saying they are going to balance around spvp only makes you look very naive, and it also is insulting to A-net since you think all those resources were wasted.

They have stated that they are balancing the game around tPVP. So it kind of makes you look silly. And that if they have to they will split the abilities between pve and pvp.

Interesting because I do not see where they said it. Feel free to post a link.

“The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. "

The real players are the ones who will be asking for legit nerfs on things that are of balancing concern.

Not crying because they lost to something.

Now, if you think playing pve or wvw will effect your knowledge of what is imbalanced or not, I would like to know how doing a dungeon on a mesmer will let me know guardian is imba in pvp. It won’t.

Now, with that aside, PvP is the full game to some players. Some people (like myself) really have no interest in pve, however pve is the best thing gw2 has to offer atm.

Your talk on balance is funny, it’s like you think they want to balance these casual formats like the esport format in guildwars one. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They might balance it like that if they make those formats but not in these.

Kryank.8069:

I think he may have a good point though sorrow it’s not the skill damage that is as much a problem as the stacking effects, boons haste etc. that creates more of a problem than the damage the skill would do without it. Hell I’ve been pistol whipped from 3/4 health and stomped on before I could really react due to haste, if there was a limit on what boons, skills you could stack it may improve the situation. Just my options ofc.

In my opinion, the quickness is contingent, because if there wasn’t such an high damage output on a thief, probably quickness isn’t worth it. I mean, quickness skills have almost high cooldown and side effects, if you wouldn’t be able to kill someone in 2 skills, probably starting a quickness chain isn’t the best choice.
If the thief get a damage nerf, a skilled player will always carry a quickness skill on his bar, but he will use that skill not to make a 2 skill combo to burst down a target in half a second, but will use that skill more wisely and chose when is the right time to use that skill, since, at least regarding thief, if after you used quickness the target isn’t dead, you will probably facing troubles.

Also, I think that the debuff after going out of stealth should lasts longer and stealth mechanic should be more linked to the Shadow Arts traitline, to avoid the thieves that compensate the very low defenses with tons of stealth skills, making them invulnerable also when not specced into Shadow Arts.

R E F L H E X.8413:

“The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. "

1. The real players are the ones who will be asking for legit nerfs on things that are of balancing concern.

2. Not crying because they lost to something.

3. Now, if you think playing pve or wvw will effect your knowledge of what is imbalanced or not, I would like to know how doing a dungeon on a mesmer will let me know guardian is imba in pvp. It won’t.

4. Now, with that aside, PvP is the full game to some players. Some people (like myself) really have no interest in pve, however pve is the best thing gw2 has to offer atm.

Your talk on balance is funny, it’s like you think they want to balance these casual formats like the esport format in guildwars one. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They might balance it like that if they make those formats but not in these.

1. The real players don’t come in here and ask for nerfs. The real players will submit them the same way you do bug reports or won’t ask for nerfs at all. Want to know why? Because only a extremely tiny fraction of the nerfs being asked for are actually needed. Want to know why? Because the real players have already proven that there are counters. Want to know how? They spent time, configuring, tweaking and coming up with builds and ways to counter.

2. Crying/QQing/L2p is only really used by a younger generation that sees fit to lack any maturity and only demeans themselves. Sure there is a lot of complaining. Complaining =/= crying

3. Again, someone else on here that sees fit to put words in my mouth. Feel free to quote exactly where I said the balance changes would be made on pve ALONE? I am waiting

4. You didn’t really make any sense here. Redo

@Xhieron – Thanks for the link, I’ll be reading it as soon as possible. The first statement of your first major paragraph resonated with my irritation at a lot of the imbalance claims, so I trusted the rest to be good (trying to get some work done).

@Rika – Keep fighting the good fight. I’ve taken on arguments like you in the past, and typically they result in people thinking I’m a troll/garbage/etc. etc. However, I wanted to let you know at least one other person is quietly tipping his hat to the stance you’ve taken, as well as how you’ve approached defending it.

Knyx.5926:

R E F L H E X.8413:

“The real players, the ones you do NOT see coming on here and making nerf/complaint threads, are the ones who have already adapted. "

1. The real players are the ones who will be asking for legit nerfs on things that are of balancing concern.

2. Not crying because they lost to something.

3. Now, if you think playing pve or wvw will effect your knowledge of what is imbalanced or not, I would like to know how doing a dungeon on a mesmer will let me know guardian is imba in pvp. It won’t.

4. Now, with that aside, PvP is the full game to some players. Some people (like myself) really have no interest in pve, however pve is the best thing gw2 has to offer atm.

Your talk on balance is funny, it’s like you think they want to balance these casual formats like the esport format in guildwars one. IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They might balance it like that if they make those formats but not in these.

1. The real players don’t come in here and ask for nerfs. The real players will submit them the same way you do bug reports or won’t ask for nerfs at all. Want to know why? Because only a extremely tiny fraction of the nerfs being asked for are actually needed. Want to know why? Because the real players have already proven that there are counters. Want to know how? They spent time, configuring, tweaking and coming up with builds and ways to counter.

2. Crying/QQing/L2p is only really used by a younger generation that sees fit to lack any maturity and only demeans themselves. Sure there is a lot of complaining. Complaining =/= crying

3. Again, someone else on here that sees fit to put words in my mouth. Feel free to quote exactly where I said the balance changes would be made on pve ALONE? I am waiting

4. You didn’t really make any sense here. Redo

You want a redo fine.

1. The real players will go back to guildwars one where the real pvp combat is happening. (However you kinda repeated what I said in 1)

3. You wanted a quote you got one :

It is perfectly fine if you only bought the game for spvp and that is all you do.
You still are only experiencing roughly 33% of the game even if you get to top rank in spvp and get every piece in your locker.
If I buy a game that has single player, head to head multiplayer, and a co-op zombie mode. I only play the co-op zombie mode, can I legitimately claim to have experienced the entire game and know what needs to be fixed? of course not.

Yes if you only play spvp you can speak on balance, because it’s not much different in wvw other than the armors/orb bonuses. Pve has nothing to do with any of it.

My four made perfect sense, the pvp is bad here and the pve is good, where gw1 is the complete reversal. Players like me normally skip pve in favor of pvp in games, to only play pvp, like a lot of people bought this game for. however the pve outshines the pvp by a hundredfold.

It’s like buying starcraft or age of empires to do storymode XD. Jesus.

@REFLHEX

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. wvwvw offers a lot more then just armor/orb bonuses (example: the fact that all classes have a 1200 range weapon except 1 is easier to see as a balance issue in wvwvw then it does in spvp) . As i stated in my analogy a class can be amazing in spvp and at the same time lacking in wvwvw. I am sure they will balance around all 3, not just 1.

I seen no special weapons in world vs world other than siege.

I didn’t get a rifle on my mesmer that shot that far, I can hit that far with staff in pve/spvp anyways.

hackks.3687:

Rika.7249:

Xhieron.2168:

Playing to Win

I’m just going to leave this here.

…

The link you provided was the best read I have ever had.
Thank you.

the literary world just gave a collective sigh

I couldn’t care less about what the literary world thinks.

Geoff.6397:

Rika you act like you were “the one that know the truth” jeez, are you working for ANet or something? If people just want to say that this game is unbalanced ( that’s what I think ) let them do so!

Feel free to do so!

As long as it’s something, like what you did there, in the parentheses.

I’m not acting any more “the chosen one” than any of the others.

edit: double post

R E F L H E X.8413:

I seen no special weapons in world vs world other than siege.

I didn’t get a rifle on my mesmer that shot that far, I can hit that far with staff in pve/spvp anyways.

You realize you just made no sense right?
You realize your mesmer has weapons that have 1200 range right?
You realize ALL classes have weapons with 1200 range except thief?
That is why I was just using that as an example. It is an example like that where you would only really notice the inherent flaw in having 1 class singled out in that department in wvwvw, where you wouldn’t really notice it as much of a flaw at all in spvp. Hence why balance will not just commence around spvp.

Knyx.5926:

R E F L H E X.8413:

I seen no special weapons in world vs world other than siege.

I didn’t get a rifle on my mesmer that shot that far, I can hit that far with staff in pve/spvp anyways.

You realize you just made no sense right?
You realize your mesmer has weapons that have 1200 range right?
You realize ALL classes have weapons with 1200 range except thief?
That is why I was just using that as an example. It is an example like that where you would only really notice the inherent flaw in having 1 class singled out in that department in wvwvw, where you wouldn’t really notice it as much of a flaw at all in spvp. Hence why balance will not just commence around spvp.

Cluster Bomb on thief is 1200!
(woo!)

Knyx.5926:

R E F L H E X.8413:

I seen no special weapons in world vs world other than siege.

I didn’t get a rifle on my mesmer that shot that far, I can hit that far with staff in pve/spvp anyways.

You realize you just made no sense right?
You realize your mesmer has weapons that have 1200 range right?
You realize ALL classes have weapons with 1200 range except thief?
That is why I was just using that as an example. It is an example like that where you would only really notice the inherent flaw in having 1 class singled out in that department in wvwvw, where you wouldn’t really notice it as much of a flaw at all in spvp. Hence why balance will not just commence around spvp.

You realize my 1200 range isn’t special just for wvw right?

Knyx.5926:

@REFLHEX

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that last part. wvwvw offers a lot more then just armor/orb bonuses (example: the fact that all classes have a 1200 range weapon except 1 is easier to see as a balance issue in wvwvw then it does in spvp) . As i stated in my analogy a class can be amazing in spvp and at the same time lacking in wvwvw. I am sure they will balance around all 3, not just 1.

It’s the same for spvp as it is for wvw.

Here’s what people need to start doing : reading the context something was written in before they add in their opinion.

sorrow.2364:

Wolfe.3097:

50%…lol

the problem is damage stacking, not hte class itself, look at the tooltip for our damage skills, other classes have skills that hit just as hard, when you stack all that power/crit and gruop buffs/self buffs, your gonna get stupid damage. this means either damage needs nerfed ACROSS THE BOARD for all classes, or we need to adjust damage stacking.

You have no idea of the situation if you say that every profession can hit as hard as a thief do.
Try the Necromancer or the Elementalist, spec them with full crits/power, join a game and see how stupid the damage is. Consider also the time you take to make that damage.

yes it was a bit of a blanket statement, however, necors and elementalists NEED A BUFF FOR GODS SAKE.

however ive seen elementalists do one spell for over 10k before. and that spell i bet doesnt require being in stealth and behind the target in melee range :P

Wolfe.3097:

however ive seen elementalists do one spell for over 10k before. and that spell i bet doesnt require being in stealth and behind the target in melee range :P

Where and when did you see that? If you mean in the BWE, I trust you.

sorrow.2364:

Kryank.8069:

I think he may have a good point though sorrow it’s not the skill damage that is as much a problem as the stacking effects, boons haste etc. that creates more of a problem than the damage the skill would do without it. Hell I’ve been pistol whipped from 3/4 health and stomped on before I could really react due to haste, if there was a limit on what boons, skills you could stack it may improve the situation. Just my options ofc.

In my opinion, the quickness is contingent, because if there wasn’t such an high damage output on a thief, probably quickness isn’t worth it. I mean, quickness skills have almost high cooldown and side effects, if you wouldn’t be able to kill someone in 2 skills, probably starting a quickness chain isn’t the best choice.
If the thief get a damage nerf, a skilled player will always carry a quickness skill on his bar, but he will use that skill not to make a 2 skill combo to burst down a target in half a second, but will use that skill more wisely and chose when is the right time to use that skill, since, at least regarding thief, if after you used quickness the target isn’t dead, you will probably facing troubles.

Also, I think that the debuff after going out of stealth should lasts longer and stealth mechanic should be more linked to the Shadow Arts traitline, to avoid the thieves that compensate the very low defenses with tons of stealth skills, making them invulnerable also when not specced into Shadow Arts.

dude the 2 seconds from my haste proc is sometimes enough for my autoattack to kill someone, or take nearly half there hp in the least.

quickness is seriously OP

and just cuz you dont like fighting vs stealth doesnt mean stealth is unbalanced, it has some bugs, but once those are fixed it will be fine.

sorrow.2364:

Wolfe.3097:

however ive seen elementalists do one spell for over 10k before. and that spell i bet doesnt require being in stealth and behind the target in melee range :P

Where and when did you see that? If you mean in the BWE, I trust you.

was sometime last week (havent had time to play guild wars 2 this week yet) it wasnt much past 10k tho, like 10k and some change. i dont play elementalist so i dont know what spell it was or what kinda setup and gropu buffs he had either.

Wolfe.3097:

dude the 2 seconds from my haste proc is sometimes enough for my autoattack to kill someone, or take nearly half there hp in the least.

quickness is seriously OP

and just cuz you dont like fighting vs stealth doesnt mean stealth is unbalanced, it has some bugs, but once those are fixed it will be fine.

Well, I’m just pointing out what in my opinion makes Thief so OP and these two things are damage and stealth. Get real, Stealth is the most effective defensive mechanic in the game and make it great also when not traited is a non-sense in terms of balancing.

Well, I don’t know which autoattack do you have, but usually 2 seconds of quickness aren’t really enough to kill someone without the huge damage the Thief now has. For example, if Thief with Pistol Whip would make 3-4k damage, there is no way to kill someone with just a quickness combo and, also, will let the thieves to practice more to get a kill instead of just do 3 spamming.

Same thing that defeats stealth is the same thing that defeats Mesmers. AoEs.

I swear people complain more than they play. Players are already learning how to counter these problems guys.