Guild Wars 2

First off I’m not asking for a nerf or complaining that I get killed by thieves over and over.

I’m just looking for some clarity here, I do not understand why one class would be:

The fastest class in the game, not sprinting but steady running(um isn’t that a Ranger’s job)

Why they have 3x more invis abilities than the mesmer

Why they have more Burst Damage than any other class in the game, the guardian and elementalist have the same HP pool and far less dmg. And no Bunker build beats invis for survivability.

and finally

Why any class would be given HIGH DMG spammable teleport onto target abilities?

This game has such innovative and ground breaking pvp idea’s and here’s this one TERRIBLE CLASS DESIGN destroying the enjoyment of every other class.

Most of all I don’t understand why the DEV’s don’t see this as a problem or why they would ever implement a class so broken. I do not think a nerf could fix this problem without basically bringing the class back to the drawing board. It would honestly be better for the game logevity over-all if this class was deleted.

I must disagree with you on some points:

Since ranger has the biggest range from any other char (1.500) it would not make much sense if you also made this class the fastest.

Spammable teleport? Thieves have steal ability on 45 sec cd and a signet on 30 sec cd. Also they have a shortbow “teleport” that uses a lot of initiative, and you can only cast it 2x in a row, but that leaves you with nothing to attack. Also about stealth – only if a thief uses shadow refuge as a utility (its an aoe stealth that puts a circle in which you and your allies are invisible if standing) the stealth part is long, other times its just a few seconds (3~) and you can still hit them even with melee attacks, not to mention aoe.

The biggest burst is debatable since 100b still does more dmg as one ability in comparison to any other one of thieves abilities.

In my opinion the main reason developers do not see the problem with this class is because a thief, especially BS thief that creates so many complains in this forum, is not really a threat or overpowered in tpvp, since most of people do not play glass canons without any defences and no stunbreakers there. Also they rarely get an opportunity to ambush anyone, since people tend to keep an eye ant communicate with their team about things like a thief sneaking behind you. So to sum up the game is currently being balanced for 5×5 Tpvp, thus devs do not see a lot of problems with thief class…

The thief have a high number of stealth skill because… it’s a Thief!
They’ve the high burst damage because it’s defence is low and it’s strategy is all to hit you from behind. If they don’t find your back they’re fu…ed. Dodge roll one or two time, evade one hit and the thief is ready for the death. Yes, if you don’t find the way to evade it’s fisrt attack they kill you, but if you evade one or two of the first powerfull attack, they’re f…d.
The bunker skill don’t make you invisible, but make you invulnerable. The guardian have a lot of skill that block the enemy, proiectiles and damage, heals and give buffs to allies. The thief can become invisible, but whit AoE skills you can hit them easy, if you want. In sPvP whit my warrior i hit them when they’re in hide by whit my hammer. They use the skill that create a clock of ivisibility in the area. I jump in the center, use the AoE that knowk back, smash the thief out the area of stealth and the thief is death. Or whit a Ele you can use some AoE to hit them in it’s stealth mode, the same whit ranger, Enginer, and all the other classes. All class hace some AoE skills.
The problem of the stealt is that: the enemy don’t see you, but the enemy can hit you. Whit the bunker skills of the guardian you can see them but you can’t deal damage. In that way, the Guardian is stronger than the thief, don’t you think?

Yes, the thief is a motherf…..er class, but the same is for other class. The invulnerable guardian or the clone maker mesmer, that create 6 clones/illusions/phantams, you lose the main target and hit all the clones before you find the real enemy. In that time the mesmer hit you hard whit phantoms and skills and before you find the real one he make a “boooooooommmm” and all the clones/illusions/phantasms explode in high damage.
Every class have a situation or a build that someone can call “OP”, but you can kill them whit the right build and gamestyle.

Example to kill a thief: be a guardian whit high defence and evade the first 2 thief’s attack. He miss to deal to you it’s powerfull damage and all that he can do is flee. But you block he’s way whit the staff skills, switch to the greatword and say “bye bye” to the thief. It’s easy, try it.

(p.s. sorry for my very bad english XD)

Warriors got buffed.

You will never ever convince a Thief player that he is being carried by his class.

I love when I stealth, run away, and then a thief uses heartseeker and hits me for 9k even though I’m invisible and it’s a single target move.

In no other MMO to date has a theif class had this high burst+constant run speed plus spammable invis while in combat abilities…BECAUSE IT’S STUPID!

Ranger/Hunter has always had the highest constant run speed, theives can sprint faster for awhile with a cooldown ability but run the fastest NO. Shadowbane gave theives high run speed, but they didn’t have the dmg of an Assassin to boot.

There is currently an exploit used by theives to stay invisible after attacking I’ve fought theif after theif which were invis for 16 secs out of a 20 sec fight. No amount of dodging or rolling will allow me fight someone I can’t see. You can only hit them with an AOE at that point because you drop target when they stealth.

This is not a learn to play issue, it’s a learn to design one.

“In no other MMO to date has a theif class had this high burst+constant run speed plus spammable invis while in combat abilities…BECAUSE IT’S STUPID!”

This is a great example of what kind of person constantly complains about thief class… What you are saying is just untrue, most popular mmorpgs thief class had these things, for example lets take the most popular mmorpg WoW and lets say Wotlk version:

Mutilation rogues can run faster with sprint and also from talents have 15% constant speed increase (even in stealth speed is quite good especially if talents are specd there), they have permanent (!) stealth + vanish (2x if preparation is used) + a lot of CC like blind, sap, etc. Also not to mention a very high burst capabilities with mutilation and envenom spam. Same goes to lineage2: the dagger classes (plain walker/abyss walker) have the highest burst, and in Elf “thief” example highest base running speed ingame.

And yet, not every person finds fighting thieves very difficult, thus it is a l2p not learn to design issue. Either go to tournaments or create a thief to find their weak points…

The problem with thief is apparent in both low and high level play; a lot of people have been claiming its an l2p issue, but its not.

Thief is currently on the same pedestal as Mesmer, which is broken.

I really feel for someone who wants to start learning this game, constantly getting one shotted or shattered down without a chance to react; its in my opinion absolutely ridiculous that Arena net have decided not to address this issue and keep things as they are. A simple solution to this would’ve been to slightly nerf the damage on backstab and give it an initiative cost of around (5-6), largely nerfing the thieves damage output after landing a backstab.

Its sad that people are trying to defend this class or claim that its balanced or inline with other classes.

I could write a whole essay about why I think thief and mesmer are both broken classes and their damage ratios really need to be looked at, because you cant provide classes with invul invis and shadowstep/blinks and also give them a high damage output, this pretty much makes the way they will be played very one dimensional.

Anyways, if you really think thief is balanced or in anyway in no need of nerfs I would be happy to show you otherwise in game.

@Xeph: Other than the mesmer’s map control via portal etc what makes them broken?

The Memser Shatter build has repeatable high bursts of damage on a low cooldown, while still having very effective survival tools. It’s in a simliar place as the Thief by having too much defense in its glass cannon state, but instead of having extremely high burst on a higher set of cooldowns it has repeatable (but still very strong) burst on an extremely short cooldown.

Well, imo they need to tone down burst in general. There is way too much burst flying around and hardly any condition or sustained direct damage.

This problem is not unique to mesmers.

There is a large number of non-thief players that don’t think Thief is much of a problem, so please don’t use such a condescening tone to say things like “what are they stupid! how can they not see” because truthfully a lot of us kill thieves all the time, much easier than they kill us, because their tricks are very predictable, and they are nowhere near the top of the list in priorities on bug fixes and other small imbalance issues.

There’s a consolidated thief thread for a reason – throw your misguided complaints down the well of no return with the rest of the players who couldn’t be bothered to learn how to play and leave the rest of us to discuss things of actual importance on these boards, PLEASE.

Fellknight.4820:

In no other MMO to date has a theif class had this high burst+constant run speed plus spammable invis while in combat abilities…BECAUSE IT’S STUPID!

.

quoting this because its true.

When you play normal thieves you lose, but when you play the REALLY good ones who use EVERY trick its just not fair at ALL. I died today and watched a thief on my team go on to kill all 3 people who were chasing me. I know they were raged since i never saw him for more than 1 sec so I know they didnt either.

Varyag.3751:

Fellknight.4820

Why they have more Burst Damage than any other class in the game,

Three words: One Hundred Blades.

Twelve words:
roughly similar damage output
from stealth
instant
non-self-rooting (<- this counts as one)
while keeping mobility intact

My main complaint with thieves is that they can stealth for who knows how long, and gank Svanir/Chieftan from 3-4 opponents without fail. Almost makes it required to have a thief on this map.

Again I’m not asking for help agianst this class, I’m pointing out that it is broken and it’s a design issue.

There isn’t a single MMO that has been ever made where the Theif class had Highest Burst dmg+Highest Running Speed+Spammable teleport onto Target attack’s+Could stealth every 6 sec’s and use CD stealth inbetween the 6 seconds.

Just saying it sounds insane

I also cannot think of a single MMO where ranger/scout class didn’t have some form of reveal ability to use agianst the Theif class. I’m not asking for one just stating a fact. Ranger/Scouts were given support tools to protect there group from stealth classes.

AGIAN I’M NOT ASKING FOR ANY ABILITIES FOR RANGER I THINK THEY ARE FINE AND RANGER’S DO WELL AGIANST THEIF. (However a Good ranger will still die to an average or even bad theif, they’d have to know the class inside and out to win and even then will die if theif uses invis exploit)

Here’s some screen’s of me running a BG with an ArenaNet Dev named ESRB Violations. As you can see I finish in top of any Tpvp or spvp I’ve ever run. I do as well as ArenaNet allows Rangers to play. I don’t need to learn to play and I’ll happily post Screenshot after Screenshot of me coming in number 1. That doesn’t mean that theif is balanced just means that after 15 years of mmo pvp gaming going back to Ultima Online I don’t need an OP class to excel in pvp. I would also never make excuses or lie about the class I play being fine when they are clearly not.

Your post after the second sentence clearly states that you are complainning and asking for a nerf. You’re contradicting yourself.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Your post after the second sentence clearly states that you are complainning and asking for a nerf. You’re contradicting yourself.

Nope I clearly stated the class is broken one Nerf won’t fix it, it needs to be retooled.

I join games all day where I’m the lowest ranked person I dont hot join I select servers. Now if i’m coming in Number 1 all the time vs players who are much higher ranked then me wouldn’t that say I’m a very good pvper lol espeically when you consider I’m doing it with a ranger and out scoring the guys who made the game.

I don’t need to be rank 40 to pvp well and know my class lol after a 20 matches you should be very strong with your class, there’s not a huge learning curve for pvp in GW2.

How about responding to why you think theives should have all these things no other class has or why you feel theif here needs more than any other game has ever given that class to excel in pvp.

spoonfoy.7315:

evilapprentice.6379:

There’s a consolidated thief thread for a reason – throw your misguided complaints down the well of no return with the rest of the players who couldn’t be bothered to learn how to play and leave the rest of us to discuss things of actual importance on these boards, PLEASE.

i wanna steal this and post it everywhere. can i steal this and post it everywhere Evil A? cause im gonna.,.,.,

By all means – but lets hope they actually listen though. The only move remaining is to type it out in underlined, bolded, italicized caps, and lets be honest, it won’t do any good.

Please do not try to de-rail the topic at hand with Trolling.

I have clearly stated why one class should NEVER have all these abilities in their skill-set. It’s never been done in any game that featured Rogue/Theif/Assassin type classes. And there is a good reason for why it hasn’t, they didn’t want 50% of the population to be stealthers.

Personal attacks and saying L2P is pointless I’ve done this song and dance with every MMO to date and players always swarm to defend there own class using no logic, example screenshots, or video’s to provide evidence for why this isn’t a problem.

However the screenshot’s and video’s showing it is a problem is OVERWHELMING!
Whenever I see the forums flooded with complaints about one class it’s because it’s true not because the vast majority of the playerbase needs to L2P.

Whenever I see the issue ignored for too long the playerbase drops dramatically and In most cases the game dies as a result. That’s the point were at now, fix it or don’t worry about working on anything else because they’ll be no one buying the expansion and no need to work on any other aspect of the game.

Hmmm…top pvp player says thieves and mesmers are OP, bunch of nobodies say that thieves are fine and the rest of the players should learn to play… Yeah, I think most sane people know who’s speaking out of their collective kittens in this one.

Rank means nothing and you outscoring as number 1 is easy to do even beginners pvping for the first time can do it. Unless your high numbers are from 1v1 situations then it doesn’t determine if you are better than the others. Until/if we get Arena where 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 can be scheduled against top duelists then ranks doesn’t mean anything. Thieves/assasins always start very strong on every mmo then they get nerf real hard to the point they become so weak a lot of people stop playing them, then sometime later they get buffed again. This game won’t be any different.

I have heard the pro player song for ages, as i have been playing on line since 1998 and jot just mmo’s. Pros and they’re logical and stilish way to whine like proper man instead of babies (still whine).

Put your logics in to practice and provide enough info to get you profession buffed to par instead of whining about other classes that you probably haven’t even played.

If you what thieves nerfed so bad, and state that thieves have no right to have the abilities they contently have, I invite you to enlighten us all (and the game dev team) with you ancient knowledge and show us how the thief should be.

tks in advanced!

You cannot Buff other professions to match theives that’s the problem, if you throw that much burst around fights will be WAY to short.

They need to raise Theives vitality(abit not alot), lower skill one button spam dmg and raise combo dmg, remove alot of stealth abilities , give theives more defensive and CC abilities(not stuns!) that don’t rely on stealth and lower there run-speed signet to 10% with a swiftness activate on over 1 min cooldown.

And most of all give ground drops that reveal stealthers to other classes. Not all just one or two classes that currently lack support in groups.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Rank means nothing and you outscoring as number 1 is easy to do even beginners pvping for the first time can do it. Unless your high numbers are from 1v1 situations then it doesn’t determine if you are better than the others. Until/if we get Arena where 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 can be scheduled against top duelists then ranks doesn’t mean anything. Thieves/assasins always start very strong on every mmo then they get nerf real hard to the point they become so weak a lot of people stop playing them, then sometime later they get buffed again. This game won’t be any different.

I agree 1v1 is the true indicator of PvP skill hands down. However you would find that any theif who knows about the stealth exploit is undefeatable in 1v1 PvP at the moment. Yes it is a bug/exploit that many players are using to stay stealthed and still attack you while stealthed. If a theif uses this I lose, if they don’t I win, that simple.

There is not amount of skill that will EVER allow you to overcome class balance this broken.

the “permastealth” bug has been explained so many times.,.,., its not a bug, its a latency issue for people with crappy connections/computers. and a “theif” (whatever the hell that is) that knows about it is FAR from “undefeatable”.

also, 1v1 is far from the true indicator of PvP skill hands down. this game is balanced around team fights and tournament play.

and if "theif"s are “that broken”, why arent top teams running 5 of them? and why arent skilled players having trouble with them?

It’s not a latency issue if your not aware that it is indeed an exploit then you have no grounds saying anything about tournamant’s.

And every high ranked player from any other MMO and the top rated players of tournaments know it’s an exploit and agree that Mesmer and theif are totally OP.

So please start siting your facts Romney Jr.

Fellknight.4820:

It’s not a latency issue if your not aware that it is indeed an exploit then you have no grounds saying anything about tournamant’s.

And every high ranked player from any other MMO and the top rated players of tournaments know it’s an exploit and agree that Mesmer and theif are totally OP.

So please start siting your facts Romney Jr.

i give up. i just, cant take you seriously anymore. HOW many typos, grammar errors, and incorrectly spelled words can you stuff into one post? its literally hurting me to read your comments, ugh.

also, good call on bringing politics into a thread. that was a highly enlightened decision.

i also wasnt aware that YOU speak for EVERY “top rated” (since theres a rating system) player in GW2. i apologize. i was unaware of your status as the measuring stick for opinion.

and as for my sources – i dont have problems with thieves, i dont have problems with Mesmers. ergo, as all other level headed and skilled players have said (in my experience), its a l2p issue, which weve known about you from the start.

POST YOUR SOURCES, I’m tired of hot air!

I’m tired of terrible players posting nothing to back up their claims, I can back mine up show sources, show video’s, screenshots etc etc.

Please quote any source to back up anything you claim. PLS i’d love to embaress you with FACTS!

cool. please send me a link to EVERY TOP RATED PLAYER calling "theif"s and Mesmers over powered.

thank you in advance. <3

in return, i offer you THESE FORUMS, which are FLOODED with baddies crying op on mesmers and "theif"s, and also FLOODED with good players saying “l2p. the classes arent that bad.”

Fellknight.4820:

Again I’m not asking for help agianst this class, I’m pointing out that it is broken and it’s a design issue.

This tells me all I need to know, no interest in learning mechanics, no interest in learning your opponent or their moves and abilities, no interest in trying to improve your gameplay, no interest in trying to adjust your build, just QQ about the WHOLE thief class in general. Sorry they are not going to destroy a class because someone that thinks they are almighty but won’t take the time to try and learn and adapt are calling thieves OP

The talent that makes steal also do extreme damage is a bit puzzling.

More broadly, it is puzzling how arenanet seems to like thief skills that do multiple things with one button press. I.e. HS not only does good damage it also closes gaps and homes on the target, DB not only does damage it also evades, steal not only steals it also does very good damage with the talent, C&D not only stealths but also does good damage, etc.

Basically thieves have to press like half as many buttons as everyone else to get the same effect, which seems weird.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

Fellknight.4820:

Again I’m not asking for help agianst this class, I’m pointing out that it is broken and it’s a design issue.

This tells me all I need to know, no interest in learning mechanics, no interest in learning your opponent or their moves and abilities, no interest in trying to improve your gameplay, no interest in trying to adjust your build, just QQ about the WHOLE thief class in general. Sorry they are not going to destroy a class because someone that thinks they are almighty but won’t take the time to try and learn and adapt are calling thieves OP

What your saying is a farce, you want to pretend that players don’t know how to play vs theives and that’s the problem.

You want to throw a light weight blind-folded in a ring with a heavy weight and call him a loser when he doesn’t win as if all things were equal THERE NOT!

Like I said I have no problem with a Theif in 1v1 but I had to build my entire class just to fight that one class. I’m not built for 1v1 vs any other class because I can use my abitiles and timing and pvp skill to beat any other class in 1v1. If you have to build your character around one guy THAT CLASS IS OP! And if theif uses stealth exploit I’m still gonna lose, I fought a theif yesterday that was visible for 6 out of 30 seconds!!

Now tell me how you use any stratgey to fight a player you cant’s target or hit with anything but aoe’s(which my class doesn’t have)for 24 secs out of a 30 second fight. Pls I’d love to hear your pro advice to counter that.

And I’m a Ranger the ranger class in every other game to date was designed to be the counter vs Theives. How about you play anything but a theif and then post screenshots or vids of you destroying theives so you can back up what your stating.

spoonfoy.7315:

cool. please send me a link to EVERY TOP RATED PLAYER calling "theif"s and Mesmers over powered.

thank you in advance. <3

I only take advice from top level players. I’ve played in game with you; you are a rank 27 (I saw thanks to the new rank listing at the end of matches) mediocre thief. That’s not an attack, I’m just stating facts. If you look up a few posts you’ll find Xeph posting about how the class actually performs (stating it’s unbalanced). I’ll take his word over yours. Sorry for the way this sounds condescending, it’s not meant to be. I’m only stating actual observations. I don’t claim to be a “pro” player, but I can definitely make observations on the state of balance after playing PvP for 10 years. I’ve learned until the top level people start stating that things are unbalanced then maybe I need to keep learning. Unfortunately with thief and mesmers, even the pros are complaining.

You are smoe country bumpkins i read you fought thief with 30 seconds stealth, but, they reduced stealth stack time which is around 15 seconds now.

Second of all, thief atm is ultimate Spvp class, which is decently balanced in Tpvp.

So if you nerf thief in Spvp, in Tpvp thief will be unnecesary class, like warrior, outperformed by other profesions in any role they can go.

And someone mentioned signet of shadows needs nerf, to 10%….
DONT BE RIDICULOUS, thief has no swiftness on demand, if he has only 10% passive movespeed we will be one of the slowest classes ingame.
The only swiftness i have acess to is gained from steal, but not every thief has it, and its main use is after you use it in combat, not in bare running.

And seriously shush about ranger needing better movespeed then it is now. I saw ranger criting 4k from max range on light target. Lets give them best speed so they can keep that range and always hit kittenloads of damage right ?

Lol 10% run speed would make you as fast as the other fastest classes in the game and I also said make it an active swiftness on the signet Theives are sprinters not long distance runners give me one MMO that theives ran the fatest and hit the hardest.

A high burster melee needs to be kited thats why they have to be a sprinter not a steady fast runner. They have to use skills to get close, while the other class does dmg
and tries to evade.

You wanna erase that dynamic and hand theives insta kills lol go ahead but mark my words in two month you’ll be playing alone

With what you are suggesting signet would become mandatory in any melee thief build. Nice thats -1 utility slot as i would need my signet all of the time. Oh wait i also need stunbreaker and condition removal, i guess all 3 utility slots would be decided then.

I thought signet of shadows passive only worked out of combat? Can anyone confirm?

IT works in combat however, in combat speed is 66% of normal speed. Boosting 66% by 25% gives us 66*5/4=82.5% movespeed if im correct. Swiftness in combat makes it 88% of normal movespeed.

So my next question is does it stack with swiftness?

It does not. Only the hightest movespeed bonus is aplied.
In this case thats swiftness.

Cool so it still a waste of a skill slot good to know.

Fellknight.4820:

First off I’m not asking for a nerf or complaining that I get killed by thieves over and over.

I’m just looking for some clarity here, I do not understand why one class would be:

The fastest class in the game, not sprinting but steady running(um isn’t that a Ranger’s job)

Why they have 3x more invis abilities than the mesmer

Why they have more Burst Damage than any other class in the game, the guardian and elementalist have the same HP pool and far less dmg. And no Bunker build beats invis for survivability.

and finally

Why any class would be given HIGH DMG spammable teleport onto target abilities?

This game has such innovative and ground breaking pvp idea’s and here’s this one TERRIBLE CLASS DESIGN destroying the enjoyment of every other class.

Most of all I don’t understand why the DEV’s don’t see this as a problem or why they would ever implement a class so broken. I do not think a nerf could fix this problem without basically bringing the class back to the drawing board. It would honestly be better for the game logevity over-all if this class was deleted.

@ the Origonal Poster (responses in order of questions)

Rangers have the longest range of any class in the game. Giving them the fastest run speed would amount to a broken OP class beyond anything this game has ever seen.

Mesmer is not the primary stealth class of this game. Mesmers have many tools to deal with situations, stealth is a secondary option.

Traditionally the Thief (or Witch Elf, or Rogue, or Thief, or…) are the highest single target dps class in mmos. This is no surprise. As for survivability, they are not even close to on par with Guardians or Elementals.

I am assuming you are referring to Heartseeker. This is a counter to the many abilities classes have to escape/repel you. If a thief did not have gap closers, most classes in this game would easily render them useless.

The development team has obviously seen some flaws in the initial design of the thief. Their abilities are being modified (frequently nerfed) in every major patch.

I have been, for the duration of this game, on the surpress thief power bandwagon. That being said, I could not resist responding to a post like this as I disagreed with pretty much every point.

I would like to know where this “spammable” invisibility can be found.

I’ve been playing a thief since launch and have yet to find it on my hotbar or in my traits. Is there a magic orb somewhere I need to loot in order to get this mythic ability? I keep seeing posters whine about it, several of them in this very thread, but none of them have been able to direct me to this ability.

Well, others can have perma swiftness, like ele or warrior or even necro i think which is better then thiefs, and dont waste utility slot. Nevertheless, I find it ok.

rickshaw.5279:

I would like to know where this “spammable” invisibility can be found.

I’ve been playing a thief since launch and have yet to find it on my hotbar or in my traits. Is there a magic orb somewhere I need to loot in order to get this mythic ability?

Spamable invisiblity… ye i need that too, unless i spec into shadow arts + take 2 invis at least,(not helping my bursts or damage at all) i cant be invis for more then 20 seconds, if i take 2 utility slots.

Well but they can start blabing about things they want, saying a false belieaf wont make it come true.

So imagine if thief is slower then necro/warrior/guardian/ranger/ele. Thats 5/8 classes faster then thief if speed nerf the guy above told is completed. Mesmers got portals, and 1/8 classes is same thiefs. Meaning 6/8 classes could outporform in roaming.

Who cares about my insane bursts if i am slow to arive in spot im needed in Tpvp.

I would better take fastest profesion into Tpvp, then most bursty one.

Lemme get this straight but if a theif has a 10% run speed signet with a swiftness active ability something the necro, elementalist and ranger would kill for you would suddenly suck lol.

And don’t lie every theif would slot it.

So with Shadow Refuge, Hide in Shadow’s, Blinding powder, and cloak and dagger at your disposal you couldn’t possibly escape.

And with Steal, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, and Inf.Strike at your disposal you cant get right up on someone.

Cmon I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.