I don’t think having a little consistency between class mechanics and counterplay warrants thieves getting any sort of buff. Initiative already ignores chilled for god knows what reason while other classes can be utterly crippled by it, ignoring interrupts as well is just icing on the double standard cake. It’s gimmicky, counterplay ignoring crap like that that makes everyone hate kitten like Healing Signet. It isn’t the fact that it’s a really good skill or that it’s hard to outplay that makes it aggravating, it’s that the opportunity to outplay that mechanic just flat out doesn’t even exist beyond the warrior completely kittening up. Initiative is the cooldown equivalent of Healing Signet.
Thief weapon skills are affected by chill, the time inbetween skill uses increases, you lose the time even if initiative is not affected a chilled thief can use less skills in the same timeframe than a thief without the chilled conditions.
In addition to that there are special effects hindering thieves while chilled, heartseeker will jump only half the distance for example.
Yeah obviously people generally use chilled to make leap skills shorter and not for the giant 66% additional cooldown it applies. Were you actually thinking that having a fraction of a second additional aftercast was somehow the same thing as being locked out of a 30 second weapon skill for an additional 20? What fantasy world do you live in, why do you people even reply? It’s just embarrassing.
You assume for that that you are chilled over the full 30 sec of the cd, which is never going to happen, the cd increase is only actve while you are chilled once the effect wears of or is cleaned the cd will continue normally.
Yeah I know how chilled works. The cooldown countdown is 66% slower while the condition is applied. It’s not unusual for me to get a straight 20-25 seconds of chill uptime with my ele by using glyph of elemental power and threading skills and auras in succession, generally evening out to around 60-70% uptime total. It’s hard to pull off and probably one of the only things that balances out ele’s abysmal sustain. You know, unless your opponent completely ignores it for no reason, because the devs have a kitten for making their class immune to counterplay for whatever reason.
I do love though how you think that assuming I misinterpreted how chilled works somehow makes it suddenly make sense for initiative to ignore it. Gotta love that thief logic. If you don’t have an actual point to make, EVADE SPAM.
Chill only affects skills that are on cooldown, initiative is the pool used by all thief skills. Generally chill only increases a few skills by a couple seconds.
I am much more scared of chill on my thief then any other class I play…
Nina Simone in the background, anti-tief rage on the internet + derailed topic, is there a better way to start the day? Nay fellow paractitioneers of the shadow arts there is not.
Nina Simone in the background, anti-tief rage on the internet + derailed topic, is there a better way to start the day? Nay fellow paractitioneers of the shadow arts there is not.
try to get backstab off while being chilled and crippled on target with perma swiftness… then let’s talk about chilled affecting ini
Try getting a 45 second cooldown fire grab off while chilled and crippled and… oh yeah NOT INVISIBLE on a target with perma swiftness. Man those thief mechanics must be such a terrible, skill based burden for you lol. Seriously though, you somehow think getting hit with a movement decrease that EVERYONE gets hit with somehow excludes you morons from the cooldown increase aspect? Like that’s some sort of special thief only movement aspect of chill to balance out not having the cooldown part affect you? I mean you play a thief so you must be an inept moron that needs a giant leg up, but really are you even remotely trying to think about this objectively? Can you even?
If you’re an elementalist letting your opponent stack enough chilled on you to put your fire grab on a 45 second CD you’re doing it wrong. Thief lacks out-of-stealth condi removal, and is forced into spending 5 initiative to remove one at a time on one certain weapon outside of stealth. That’s why thief is forced into Lyssa runes in PvP for burst Condi removal, while other classes have multiple access to said condition removal.
As for the initiative lost (or not lost) on interrupt. The initiative system should cost the thief initiative at the start of the cast to promote proper thought and intelligent game play rather than spamming. This will punish bad or new thieves for wasting skills instead of using them at proper times or covering important casts with blinds/dazes/stuns/stealth. As for putting the skill on cooldown, I do not think that is a good idea. It will completely shut down the class in certain aspects and will go against the class resource system (initiative vs cooldowns).
-Caed
Thank you so much for posting Caed! Really happy to see the top-thief agree
I really want to keep this thread alive, since to be honest, even though theese discussions are healthy and constructive (keep it up!) there’s really no way for us to know if this is was really intended. The only thing we could hope for now is a developer posting, I’m not sure if they work on weekends, if that’s not the case,let’s keep this thread alive until monday!
try to get backstab off while being chilled and crippled on target with perma swiftness… then let’s talk about chilled affecting ini
d/p #3 should work. You could also burn utility shadow step or steal, but not a good idea since the chill will affect that.
If you’re an elementalist letting your opponent stack enough chilled on you to put your fire grab on a 45 second CD you’re doing it wrong. Thief lacks out-of-stealth condi removal, and is forced into spending 5 initiative to remove one at a time on one certain weapon outside of stealth.
I’m not sure if people use shadows embrace these days, but Withdraw is a fairly viable way to remove chilled and most tpvp thieves carry it. You also have lyssa runes.
And lol @forced to lyssa runes. Thieves are forced to it only because it is so kittening good thanks to the short cool down of the venom.
Great video, and its nice to see someone who plays thief as main reporting issues that actually benefit you, if only more people would have an honest unbaised opinion, another thief BUG which really bothers me, yes you guessed it, pistol whip. Why doesnt it say evade on the tool tip, and why is it evading? why is it as soon as i saw a pistol whip thief like 3 months ago i knew instantly it was broken, how did it get through the net? and when can we expect these issues to be addressed? again thanks for posting this, its just a shame that even with this knowledge, it wont help me fighting Sword pistol thieves
there’s really no way for us to know if this is was really intended.
It shouldn’t be intended. If you interrupt a blackpowder, it should always cost them 6 lost initiative.
Nobody is interrupting black powders. Even if people were trying to interrupt them, the cast time is far too short to do it on purpose (maybe if you live on top of the servers?)
Interrupts are only ever “planned” on heals. The rest of the time they are being used offensively for setups and interrupting essentially random skills. Losing initiative would basically allow classes to spam all their CC, a strategy that ALREADY dominates thieves, and drain a thief’s initiative with no counter play.
there’s really no way for us to know if this is was really intended.
It shouldn’t be intended. If you interrupt a blackpowder, it should always cost them 6 lost initiative.
Nobody is interrupting black powders. Even if people were trying to interrupt them, the cast time is far too short to do it on purpose (maybe if you live on top of the servers?)
Interrupts are only ever “planned” on heals. The rest of the time they are being used offensively for setups and interrupting essentially random skills. Losing initiative would basically allow classes to spam all their CC, a strategy that ALREADY dominates thieves, and drain a thief’s initiative with no counter play.
Perhaps they should increase the casting time of black powder and other thief skills. I agree with you, interrupting black powder isn’t intentional. My opinion is the interrupt mechanics are very poor compared to gw2. Most interrupts have long casting times in comparison to the skills one might think of interrupting.
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there’s really no way for us to know if this is was really intended.
It shouldn’t be intended. If you interrupt a blackpowder, it should always cost them 6 lost initiative.
Nobody is interrupting black powders. Even if people were trying to interrupt them, the cast time is far too short to do it on purpose (maybe if you live on top of the servers?)
Interrupts are only ever “planned” on heals. The rest of the time they are being used offensively for setups and interrupting essentially random skills. Losing initiative would basically allow classes to spam all their CC, a strategy that ALREADY dominates thieves, and drain a thief’s initiative with no counter play.
Perhaps they should increase the casting time of black powder and other thief skills. I agree with you, interrupting black powder isn’t intentional. My opinion is the interrupt mechanics are very poor compared to gw2. Most interrupts have long casting times in comparison to the skills one might think of interrupting.
Sure. Increase the cast times for thief skills. Just make sure you do it for all the other professions as well.
there’s really no way for us to know if this is was really intended.
It shouldn’t be intended. If you interrupt a blackpowder, it should always cost them 6 lost initiative.
Nobody is interrupting black powders. Even if people were trying to interrupt them, the cast time is far too short to do it on purpose (maybe if you live on top of the servers?)
Interrupts are only ever “planned” on heals. The rest of the time they are being used offensively for setups and interrupting essentially random skills. Losing initiative would basically allow classes to spam all their CC, a strategy that ALREADY dominates thieves, and drain a thief’s initiative with no counter play.
Perhaps they should increase the casting time of black powder and other thief skills. I agree with you, interrupting black powder isn’t intentional. My opinion is the interrupt mechanics are very poor compared to gw2. Most interrupts have long casting times in comparison to the skills one might think of interrupting.
Sure. Increase the cast times for thief skills. Just make sure you do it for all the other professions as well.
More telegraphed skills would be good for the game.
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try to get backstab off while being chilled and crippled on target with perma swiftness… then let’s talk about chilled affecting ini
d/p #3 should work. You could also burn utility shadow step or steal, but not a good idea since the chill will affect that.
If you’re an elementalist letting your opponent stack enough chilled on you to put your fire grab on a 45 second CD you’re doing it wrong. Thief lacks out-of-stealth condi removal, and is forced into spending 5 initiative to remove one at a time on one certain weapon outside of stealth.
I’m not sure if people use shadows embrace these days, but Withdraw is a fairly viable way to remove chilled and most tpvp thieves carry it. You also have lyssa runes.
And lol @forced to lyssa runes. Thieves are forced to it only because it is so kittening good thanks to the short cool down of the venom.
d/p 3 would bring you out of stealth, so you would have revealed debuff and won’t be able to execute bs
steal/shs or any kind of teleports move you to old position of the target, meaning if target is moving and you are chilled, by the time your character was moved to new position your target is already out of range
lyssa is actually really kittenty for thieves outside of 6th bonus and only reason it is taken is because of condi clean; there are too many condis flying around atm and most of them are impossible to avoid since they are either applied through AA (hi scepter) or massive persistent aoe (hello warriors)
honestly, why don’t you just ask anet to remove every weapon skill and utlity from thief and rename them into “walking loot bag”… this topic is filled with posters who don’t even play a thief but are arrogant enough to assume they could make any good suggestion on how to nerf the class even further
honestly, why don’t you just ask anet to remove every weapon skill and utlity from thief and rename them into “walking loot bag”… this topic is filled with posters who don’t even play a thief but are arrogant enough to assume they could make any good suggestion on how to nerf the class even further
Having chilled or interrupts affect thieves like every other class in the game makes them into a “walking loot bag”? Talk about hyperbole. It’s like unless thieves are the exception to the rule 100% of the time when it comes to counterplay you people will think the class is completely useless or dead weight, when in reality it’s just in line with all of the other classes. Just how much of a leg up do you need to feel competitive exactly? It’s laughably pathetic to react that way to something that’d be less of a nerf and more of a bug/consistency fix than anything and just points out how much you rely on the poorly thought out class mechanics to cover up your own skill deficiencies.
@OP, You’re video (despite the resolution) was very well put together. And honestly I cannot see how anyone thinks that not being punished for repeatedly trying to spam an attacking until it succeeds in reference to interrupts is in any way balanced. If an oponent is spending up their resources and actually landing well-timed interrupts, it’s kind of a slap-in-the-face to be able to thoughtlessly spam through it without having to worry about proper reprocussions.
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End the discussion about cooldowns vs initiative costs. They are different systems. They have different drawbacks. On my warrior, I can use weapon skills 1-5, switch weapons and have 5 new available skills. On my thief, I can use only some of 1-5 skills, switch weapons and have only autoattack available.
That is the drawback of initiative. The plus side is skill reuse and no cool downs.
The way to balance it is by throttling initiative gain – and this was rebalanced last patch fairly extensively.
End the discussion about cooldowns vs initiative costs. They are different systems. They have different drawbacks. On my warrior, I can use weapon skills 1-5, switch weapons and have 5 new available skills. On my thief, I can use only some of 1-5 skills, switch weapons and have only autoattack available.
That is the drawback of initiative. The plus side is skill reuse and no cool downs.
The way to balance it is by throttling initiative gain – and this was rebalanced last patch fairly extensively.
Good point.
But even though they are different systems, the initiative one is in my opinion, superior. Because of many reasons, and this is what I think is one. Just because they are different systems, doesnt mean that it shouldnt be a balance between them.
Learn to not be stupid for once. All those classes in order to interrupt 3-4 times have to choose weapons that are only good for that, suck offensively, and in general those builds are not viable and have much longer cooldowns than a thief interrupting.
Tell me which viable ele spec can easily interrupt attack from range several times and still burst people down.
What I find more broken in that video is that said thief interrupting you can do so 3-4 times in a row.
Most classes at best get 2 interrupts on 30+ sec cd’s.
Ever met a turret Engie with APT or a blackout mesmer? Thief looks like every other class when compared to those two and the amount of CC they have.
Rarely, because those builds are nowhere near as good as the alternatives. Since when are blackout mesmers even generally useful in spvp or wvw.
Turret engineers only work on a point, whereas the thief can interrupt from range and his utility isn’t stationary. Turret engineers also only exist in spvp. D/P and S/P thieves exist in both wvw and spvp.
A lot of this is … simply untrue. Especially regarding mesmer. Since when does a warrior’s hammer suck offensively?
while on the subject of thief interrupts, I think basilisk venom needs to be buffed.
as an elite by itself it’s incredibly underwhelming. the only thing that makes it usable is it’s synergy with lyssa runes. if you choose to use anything other than lyssa, you’re left with: a well broadcasted and interruptible 1.5sec stun on a 45sec cd that only lasts 30sec, cannot stack with other stuns and is wasted if hitting someone who is evading, blocking, invulnerable, “obstructed”, or hit while you’re blinded.
the cooldown isn’t short enough to justify being so lackluster, and it’s the very reason why it isn’t stronger.
this is an elite we’re talking about, and if the most redeeming thing about it is it’s short cooldown that pigeonholes you into a runeset primarily for its effect, then it needs to be fixed.
Going to bump this in a desperate attempt to get a developer to give us some information.
Grouch pls. <3
It takes them 6 months + to nerf healing signet by 8%. A change like this (which actually will take time to do) is just not going to happen. It should happen. But it won’t. Because they don’t support the game at all.
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