Guild Wars 2

I see two problems: Z-Axis Ports (which make utilities like Fleshworm look useless) and the class-mechanic of no CD’s.

Thief is there to put you on your toes so that you pay attention at all times. Good thieves can make a big difference but they can all be countered by cc, burst or condis like any other prof.

Thieves have never been weaker than they are now. If you still dunno how to counter them (even gameplay wise), I’m sorry to tell you that GW2 might not be a game for your standards. Consider rerolling maybe?

Leeto.1570:

Im not saying that i have problems with thiefs or something im saying that they just destroy the PVP they just make you play completely different way and unbalances whole game.

I’m puzzled how you can simultaneously find them op, yet not have problems with them… If you can do it, maybe its just general l2p?

Can’t help but agree with what the OP has said here. Thieves are still (after this patch) way to good and in their own little zone.

The amount of reworks needed to be done for this class currently is so high, it would be better off reverting the initiative buff and, toning down trickery some. But I think some here know that anet never fixes their own mistakes, so it’s very possible that neither of these will happen. Instead of waiting forever and an eternity, probably just going to have to deal with it

As a necro can say that the thief is OP?

The never-surprising response from X thieves who can’t wrap their brains around what Leeto is saying and instead take the defensive saying nothing is wrong with their class, L2P, get rekt, thieve not op u just bad, qq thread again…

He’s not even saying they’re overpowered. I would. lol. I’d easily say thieves are broken beyond any shadow of doubt. When a thief has access to all and MORE of any broken mechanic in the game (siphoning, teleporting, stealth) It’s pretty obvious the devs just don’t care how unbalanced they are.

The biggest defense thieves like to relay is their low hp…. Which completely doesnt matter when they can out heal a necro (even siphoning) and rival evan a guardian. They can easily spec for more active and passive defense and remove immobilize / conditions and heal. They can heal just from spamming their skills. That’s toddler level gameplay. When you can heal off of a skill that has no cooldowns (and the heal varies between like 350-500 without even specing in healing power) there is an issue.

Anyways IDC. I’ve been playing on a thief more lately and It’s completely ridiculous. Just ridiculous the ez mode spam they can produce. There is this pretend idea they like to impress that there is this grand amount of skill involved…. not true. Spamming shadowstep in different directions, spam more skills, active evades cond cleanse, repeat. They are utter childs play.

Now you can divert all your defensive attitudes towards me and then understand what leeto is saying. He’s saying that whether or not they’re op (he doesnt find them to be so) they break the game by causing players to completely change their strategies all for the sake of their broken unique mechanics. They work completely different than any other class. No cooldowns means there is less brain activity involved and just reacting to the thiefs plays. No other class in the game forces you to play on their terms like thieves do and in a way that is set completely outside the realm of class fundamentals.

So yes, thieves are the exception to all the rules. This means you have to play ThiefWars whenever a thief is playing. A whole new game.

I will never understand how this “thief can be countered with CC/stun etc” came from.

Everytime, i did anything with a thief. CC, Immobalize, stun or anything….they just teleport away instantly and stealth.
And honestly I think their “unrevealed” buff is not even exists, it’s a placebo effect.

That whole profession is just disgusting and borderline cheating. Every of their skill.
1 second spammable blind, half map teleports, no cooldowns, basilisk venom with ranger attack + then instant teleport on you , spam blind on you while hitting you with spammable 5k damage, and if you manage to do any condition or do anything with it, it just teleports away,stealth, and get you backstabbed with full hp.

You need to play with a thief and try to take one x1 in a tournament. And see that there is nothing OP.
or
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/12-8k-warlock-hit-I-am-clearly-the-best

Yes, thief does need a redesign. The iniative system doesn’t work, and it will never work.

Cooldowns are needed, without cooldowns but ressources shared by all skills, skills fight over said ressources.

If one skill is just slightly better, way would you use your valuable ressources for another not so good skill.

You could then nerf skill A and buff skill B, but you would just switch the skill which will use the Initiative.
Why would someone use Body Shot over Unload? Why would someone use Throw Dagger over Heart Seeker?
All weaponskills are in a constant conflict about the initiative pool, and some skills will never have a chance to get their share of that initiative because they would take it from other, more useful skills.

That’s why there is a need for a redesign. To make all thief skills viable.

The thief is doing ok as it is. If you can’t fight a thief effectively, you may want to play as one for a while. You’ll find that there are many ways to counter them, just like every other profession in the game.

I could lecture you on how few condition cleanses the thief has, how telegraphed backstabs are (oh yes I did), how quickly a full glass cannon build will die if they make even the smallest mistake, how much setup is required for giant backstabs (and how rare they are), how stealth has counter-play and is not even remotely like invulnerability etc etc etc…

…but it seems like many people in this thread are just raging and have long since stopped paying attention or trying to better their play.

This thread makes me sad.

I bet it’s really hard to hit that 8 second casting time Highly telegraphed backstab, Sir.

Leeto.1570:

Anyway i give up it really seems you dont understand the problem about thiefs.

• its about the fact that you have to play completely different game when there is thief around*

That’s actually the point of organized Team Arena.. Don’t be lazy

Thieves and Warriors push all other power specs out of the meta, because their spike is so much better and they have either a ton of immunities or blinds and teleports.

Thieves and warriors are the reason everyone goes condi bunker. Because if you don’t go condi bunker you die to thief/warrior.

TheDevice.2751:

The never-surprising response from X thieves who can’t wrap their brains around what Leeto is saying and instead take the defensive saying nothing is wrong with their class, L2P, get rekt, thieve not op u just bad, qq thread again…

He’s not even saying they’re overpowered. I would. lol. I’d easily say thieves are broken beyond any shadow of doubt. When a thief has access to all and MORE of any broken mechanic in the game (siphoning, teleporting, stealth) It’s pretty obvious the devs just don’t care how unbalanced they are.

The biggest defense thieves like to relay is their low hp…. Which completely doesnt matter when they can out heal a necro (even siphoning) and rival evan a guardian. They can easily spec for more active and passive defense and remove immobilize / conditions and heal. They can heal just from spamming their skills. That’s toddler level gameplay. When you can heal off of a skill that has no cooldowns (and the heal varies between like 350-500 without even specing in healing power) there is an issue.

Anyways IDC. I’ve been playing on a thief more lately and It’s completely ridiculous. Just ridiculous the ez mode spam they can produce. There is this pretend idea they like to impress that there is this grand amount of skill involved…. not true. Spamming shadowstep in different directions, spam more skills, active evades cond cleanse, repeat. They are utter childs play.

Now you can divert all your defensive attitudes towards me and then understand what leeto is saying. He’s saying that whether or not they’re op (he doesnt find them to be so) they break the game by causing players to completely change their strategies all for the sake of their broken unique mechanics. They work completely different than any other class. No cooldowns means there is less brain activity involved and just reacting to the thiefs plays. No other class in the game forces you to play on their terms like thieves do and in a way that is set completely outside the realm of class fundamentals.

So yes, thieves are the exception to all the rules. This means you have to play ThiefWars whenever a thief is playing. A whole new game.

He’s not saying they’re overpowered. He say that he has no problem dealing with thieves, but he also think they’re killing sPvP because having a thief on the enemy team forces him to use his brain…

But what you are saying is something I can’t agree with, I’m sorry. You’re saying that thief requires no skill? And this is coming from a Necromancer? I’ve played around with Necromancer, Guardian and Warrior lately, and I felt like an immortal god of destruction… My warrior and guard can pretty much be in the middle of the fight without taking much damage (yet they’re dealing a lot of it or supporting their team). My necro is either a nuclear reactor of conditions or a petting zoo, neither require much skill to do.

My thief on the other hand can’t survive in the midst of battle for longer than a second or two. After that I usually have some strong conditions on me from all the AoE spam that I need to clear. If not, I’ll be dead within seconds.

What you say about no cooldowns is partially true. We have initiative, but it has to regen. If we are out played and burn all our initiative, we can’t switch weapon set, because it share the same resource. If we spec to regenerate initiative we lose damage, same goes for pretty much all survivability traits. Remember that all our healing, utility and elite skills have cool downs, it’s only weapon skills that have a shared resource. Healing by spending initiative is close to nothing – it’s a worthless trait that almost no thieves use, because there’s way better alternatives. That health regen you’re talking about is wrong. That’s from a trait line that’s completely useless in sPvP because it’s stealth oriented. A stealthed thief is no use for his team, therefore no thief go that deep in shadow arts. That heal only applies when we are in stealth too.

In my time (since beta) in guild wars 2 I have never played as actively as I do on my thief. With most other professions position isn’t all that important (not compared to thief at least), but on my thief position is everything. One error and I’m dead, unless you’re a kittenty player. Most pro players have no problem dealing with a thief, and many enjoy fighting us because we have a unique way to fight.

What you describe in this post is the 6/6/6/6/6 build. We can’t have everything, and we don’t. I can’t spec for survivability AND deal a ton of damage. If I go damage I go full glass to stand a chance. If I go for survival I’m no use for my team, since thief survival is pretty egoistic traits and skills…

Varonth.5830:

Yes, thief does need a redesign. The iniative system doesn’t work, and it will never work.
[…]

Thieves need a redesign, but I cant say, that this is necessary because the Ini system.

The Initiative system works good.
The problem is, that many mechanics, like stealth or evade, are part of the weaponskills should replaced or removed from that skills.

But as long as the thieves have a low HP, no deffense and are heavily dependent from this mechanics, this isn’t possible.

But also, if they remove the Initiative, would that change nothing at the other problems, which thieves have. The most thieftraits and -skills are underpower or just bad e.g. Venoms, Traps, Support or boonsteal.
(BT is a joke, in relation to Shattered Concentration or Arcane Thievery + Master of Manipulation)

Also have thieves no traitlines, which support non-stealth builds or more build varity outside of stealth. Look into Acrobatic, there is nothing for them, unless Feline Grace, but many traits for stealthbuilds or which can easy replaced by SA traits.

@Leeto
If its so difficult for you to change your strategy, depending on the class, then should you train and overthinking your playstyle.
Every class need another tactic, if you want to win against them. Spiker and zerg vs 1 fights are not inclusive.
MMO’s dont make any difference to strategy games, in this point.

I would never fight against a Mesmer or Ranger, with the same tactic, that I use against Guardians or Eles, especially because every class, have many different builds, which they can use.

It’s your task to find out, which builds the other use and then exploit their weakpoints, but if you or the others get scared (, just because you see a thief,) and forget your task, then is that your problem and have nothing to do with thieves.

PS: I know you wrote, you have no problem with thieves.

This is getting out of hands…

The OP talked about off-combat OP’ness, like being able to decidie to 1v1s (close/far) wihin 15-20 seconds. Or deciding close and decap far, aka. forcing a 4-5 vs. 3 teamfight, and I got to agree that’s broken. A decent played thief carris the team more than any other class, not cuz of his 1v1 ability. If you cant deal with a thief in 1v1s it’s a l2p issue. Espically with the d-shot nerf. There are thiefs who win 99.99% of their 1v1 (maybe 3 EU and NA) but that’s cuz they’re ridiculous good, not cuz the class is broken.

As soon as the enemy team has a decent thief you need a thief yourself, otherwise he’s gonna wreck you. The z-axis ports in teamfights kill your glassy dps, like mesmer/nec. So you get your own thief to protect them. Plus without your own thief you will find your nodes always decapped.

So yeah there’s a problem with thiefs and the OP has a point, but all the haters in this thread complaining about 1v1 and stealth and kitten should l2p…

If you remove iniative give them 3 hard cc’s on a wep-set. Or an AOE that hits for 5k or invul on class-ability or 4 different skill sets with crazy sustain heal…

Obvoiusly, you dont know about thief.
Teleport across the map? Lol
Interupted 1,2 yes!! But 3rd 4th in a row? No

How can you request the change, if you not even understand them?

I understand ur qq if you are glassy light.
But if u are Heavy Nec Bunkengi. You are beyond repair.

Ok some start to get what im saying with my “thief is broken not OP”
but obviously you still dont get that thief doesnt make you use different tactics it just eliminates tactics from game. You say i whine cause thief makes you use brain?
Every class requires different approach.

With mesmer you need to take into consideration hes portals, stealth and blink when he decaps.
When bursting down warrior you need to consider if hes stances are used already.
Against every class you need to take positioning into consideration, especially as ranged so you dont get caught offguard.
When you are under preassure you need to consider what interrupts are used, and will you be able to heal safely, if not then you gotta position so the class with interrupt is out of line of sight.
With almost every class you need to follow what weapon they have ranged or melee, so you know when to line of sight when to kite.
You follow when every class has used their burst skills, so you know when its safe to engage them.
And there are load of things like this that you need to take in consideration when different classes are on field.

What with thief?
You cant kite thief, you cant wait till shortbow 3, you dont wait till he uses headshot before healing before he can headshot 2nd and 3rd time, you cant position yourself so thief cant teleport to you, just cause thief used backstab which is unavoidable doesnt mean he cant do it again few seconds later, you dont follow that he has used hes shortbow 5 and think that now close is safe and you can help mid because he can just port to your close again.

By “thief makes you play different” i mean that thief eliminates ~50% of valid tactics from game while bringing nothing new to it.

Its not just that 1v1 against thief takes less brain and tactics than against any other class but when thief is around in teamplay then there are less tactics you can use.

Warrior makes you use different tactics, engi makes you use different tactics, elementalist and mesmer makes you think differently, even bunkers make you use brain, thief just makes you spam buttons more and throw out any strategical thinking.

And stop posting BS, i have tried all classes and thief is my 3rd most played class, i perfectly know how it works just because i exaggerate doesnt mean its less true.

OP, don’t tell me you just figured that one out nearly 2 years in.

FuzzyRamen.4902:

Try tank condition builds, its like counter to thieves to a certain extent.

Its funny, the “go bunker” has been the answer given to Thieves since shortly after launch.

And people wonder why there are so many of them. Is it possible these are just people who got sick of being instagibbed and picked something to screw over Thieves, in return?

I’m honestly kind of sick of seeing posts like this…can this pls get locked-,-

This is what happens when one class is unique snowflake…
I have thief army here hating without even understanding what im talking about.
Try playing some other class, maybe if you try out class which has one chance at executing their moves then you will understand why thief design is a problem in a game where no other class works such way.

I probobly shouldve changed siggy to “thief since first month” but ofcourse it wouldnt matter as i can make topic about how necromancer death shroud needs redesign and still there will be necros whining about how having RNG factor to DS is completely fine.

Bad players dont care about game, not even talking about competetive game, all they want is to kill other people ez mode.

I`m honestly kind of sick of explaining same simple things over and over to every newbie thief that checks this topic… can this pls get locked -,-

Actually, decap engi or bunker guard in the enemy team makes your team play way more different. Thiefs already in most teams nowadays.

Pve nabs just joined pvp…so thief op qq nerf restarted all over again.

rofl have fun

gesho.9468:

they should be more available to interrupts. there was a thread a while ago, how interrupting a skills doesn’t cost init.

An initial initial cost would be nice, but if the interrupt hits initiative should be returned.
risk/reward

Increase initiative cost on Infiltrator’s Arrow. This would be a start to fixing the mobility problem that thieves currently bring to conquest.

OP:

Thief was meant and designed to be the most mobile profession. Our style is get in, hit hard and gtfo. It’s the only profession with that style yes, but I find it challenging (for both the thief and when I’m playing against one). We were designed for superior mobility, hence the popular spot as roamer in teams. We are able to rotate fast, but our team fight capabilities suck. We can’t do kitten in a group fight if it wasn’t for our teleports, unless we figure we will spam shortbow, but then the team is better off with a warrior…

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

gesho.9468:

they should be more available to interrupts. there was a thread a while ago, how interrupting a skills doesn’t cost init.

An initial initial cost would be nice, but if the interrupt hits initiative should be returned.
risk/reward

at least not fully. there should be some equivalent of 5sec cd. for instance you should spend 1init, at least. otherwise its interrupt near-immunity, just free recast.

Geiir.7603:

OP:

Thief was meant and designed to be the most mobile profession. Our style is get in, hit hard and gtfo. It’s the only profession with that style yes, but I find it challenging (for both the thief and when I’m playing against one). We were designed for superior mobility, hence the popular spot as roamer in teams. We are able to rotate fast, but our team fight capabilities suck. We can’t do kitten in a group fight if it wasn’t for our teleports, unless we figure we will spam shortbow, but then the team is better off with a warrior…

Yes it was designed with that in mind, but thats not how it works.
Thief gets in tries to burst, if he fails he gets out and tries again or just tries to burst 2 more times.
Its not about how thief works its about how it works under different conditions.
Lets imagine initiative as cooldown.
Infiltrators arrow every 6 seconds would be fine, but 3 infiltrators arrows in row is broken.
Basicly all thief balance issues revolves around initative, if you use infiltrators arrow to get to your teammate and then use pistol to interrupt stomp then its fine, but if you use all your initiative to decap point before any class can get to you from middle and then already have enough initiative to avoid any fight its not fine.
Same if you use your headshot to interrupt heal then its fine, if you use 3 headshots just because enemy is going down in hopes that maybe he heals then its not fine.
If you land your pistol whip when target cant dodge, teleport out of it then its fine, but if you PW 3 times and then land it 3rd time not because you caught target in bad position but because he already used hes defenses on first 2 then its not fine again.
And even shortbow 3, you can use it to avoid every incoming shot if you time it but then again you can spam it with eyes closed and you will still avoid everything.

By logic then true assassin in this game is zerker elementalist, you go in land your burst and go out, 1 try 1 chance, if you fail one of these things then either you did nothing or you died, in both cases you have to wait quite a while do repeat it.

I seriously dont even know how this could be fixed, maybe if only first 3 weapon skills would work with initiative system and 4,5 would have low cooldowns.

djooceboxblast.9876:

Increase initiative cost on Infiltrator’s Arrow. This would be a start to fixing the mobility problem that thieves currently bring to conquest.

I believe you mean, it’s just another step to make the thief to a class that can nothing better, than other classes.

“Oh, the thief is faster, than my class. They need a nerf.”
“Oh, the thief deals more dmg, than my class. They need a nerf.”
“Oh, the thief is stronger against a special class, than me. They need a nerf.”

There is already an endless list of this, but will this nerf suggestions ever stops?
I dont think so.

Ok, nerf thief infiltrator arrow.

Of course, the necro brainless fear chains (the Uber I WIN BUTTON) its fine.
the brainless necro AoE spam its fine.

Just nerf the thief mobility to the necros level. (but no give the fear, the hp pool…)

The amount of QQs about the thief is near the QQs Singularity.
Thief damage its now a crap (compared to necros, warriors, and eles)
Thief toughness its the worst of the game.
Now thief have only mobility, so NERF it!!

PD: Yesterday i was playing a necro in tpvp… Easy Mode… (as main thief im raging)

Groundbreaking idea: all thieves are given a bring pink aura that lasts 50 minutes after last stealth attack!!!

girien.1209:

Ok, nerf thief infiltrator arrow.

Of course, the necro brainless fear chains (the Uber I WIN BUTTON) its fine.
the brainless necro AoE spam its fine.

Just nerf the thief mobility to the necros level. (but no give the fear, the hp pool…)

The amount of QQs about the thief is near the QQs Singularity.
Thief damage its now a crap (compared to necros, warriors, and eles)
Thief toughness its the worst of the game.
Now thief have only mobility, so NERF it!!

PD: Yesterday i was playing a necro in tpvp… Easy Mode… (as main thief im raging)

I have made topic about that necro is too easy to play, just last week i made topic about how necro fearchains are OP, oh and guess who suggested tying dhuumfire to deathshroud? Again me.
You know why?
Because once you start playing seriously and play different classes instead of Main: favourite class, Alt: favourite class, favourite class, favourite class… and wait for it… favourite class
You start to want game issues to be solved no matter on which class they are, and not only on those classes that you dislike or never play.
As i said before i have no problems dealing with thiefs in 1v1s or whatever, but they bring such problems in competetive PVP that no other class does.

Im not saying here that thief needs nerf it needs to redesigned and probobly even buffed cause atm bad thief is worse than any other class and good thief is better than any other class yet they both can abuse skills in ways that no other class can counterplay it.

Leeto.1570:

As i said before i have no problems dealing with thiefs in 1v1s or whatever, but they bring such problems in competetive PVP that no other class does.

Well, what do you think then about CondiBunker Engis or “OneShot”-Riflewarriors?
I am interested in your opinion.

NONONONO
There is no problem with thieves.

Just a L2P issue
And did you see how hard it is in PVE for a thieve ?

Lol this thread, as a elementalist and ranger i can say that i have no problem with thieves. True the mobility is irritating but it’s not at a unbearable level. Actually the thieves seem weaker than before (my ranger/ele used to be easy prey to them).

If their mobility is something that kittens you out use a bit of a brain and see when he is vulenrable, or when he will use those skills (condi overload + thief stealth will result in a dead thief, just saying / or ranger rapid fire – tracks in stealth, or your pet that will chase the stealthed thief/ on ele earth 4 and 5 with dagger, or air 3) plenty of counters for thief. So i don’t get the qq about something that has been in game from the beginning and has been used for so long, that ppl now how to counter them.

P.S: Sorry for my grammar, not a native speaker

Leeto.1570:

Geiir.7603:

OP:

Thief was meant and designed to be the most mobile profession. Our style is get in, hit hard and gtfo. It’s the only profession with that style yes, but I find it challenging (for both the thief and when I’m playing against one). We were designed for superior mobility, hence the popular spot as roamer in teams. We are able to rotate fast, but our team fight capabilities suck. We can’t do kitten in a group fight if it wasn’t for our teleports, unless we figure we will spam shortbow, but then the team is better off with a warrior…

Yes it was designed with that in mind, but thats not how it works.
Thief gets in tries to burst, if he fails he gets out and tries again or just tries to burst 2 more times.
Its not about how thief works its about how it works under different conditions.
Lets imagine initiative as cooldown.
Infiltrators arrow every 6 seconds would be fine, but 3 infiltrators arrows in row is broken.
Basicly all thief balance issues revolves around initative, if you use infiltrators arrow to get to your teammate and then use pistol to interrupt stomp then its fine, but if you use all your initiative to decap point before any class can get to you from middle and then already have enough initiative to avoid any fight its not fine.
Same if you use your headshot to interrupt heal then its fine, if you use 3 headshots just because enemy is going down in hopes that maybe he heals then its not fine.
If you land your pistol whip when target cant dodge, teleport out of it then its fine, but if you PW 3 times and then land it 3rd time not because you caught target in bad position but because he already used hes defenses on first 2 then its not fine again.
And even shortbow 3, you can use it to avoid every incoming shot if you time it but then again you can spam it with eyes closed and you will still avoid everything.

By logic then true assassin in this game is zerker elementalist, you go in land your burst and go out, 1 try 1 chance, if you fail one of these things then either you did nothing or you died, in both cases you have to wait quite a while do repeat it.

I seriously dont even know how this could be fixed, maybe if only first 3 weapon skills would work with initiative system and 4,5 would have low cooldowns.

Why do you feel hit and run is an OP tactic?

Why do you feel thieves exhausting their initiative pool with spam and being vulnerable/offensively useless for 7 seconds is OP?

Why do you think PW spam isn’t counterable with only positioning/movement/risk on the thief’s part? It is. I’ve described how to counter PW in a few threads.

The scenarios you describe are not without repricussions. Hit and run makes you useless to your team while running to avoid damage. Exhausting initiative makes you unable to burst effectively. PW can be countered via blinding the windup, walking straight through the thief or staying Max melee distance and side stepping directly away, there are numerous other defenses that require defensive ability usages.

Shockwave.1230:

Leeto.1570:

Geiir.7603:

OP:

Thief was meant and designed to be the most mobile profession. Our style is get in, hit hard and gtfo. It’s the only profession with that style yes, but I find it challenging (for both the thief and when I’m playing against one). We were designed for superior mobility, hence the popular spot as roamer in teams. We are able to rotate fast, but our team fight capabilities suck. We can’t do kitten in a group fight if it wasn’t for our teleports, unless we figure we will spam shortbow, but then the team is better off with a warrior…

Yes it was designed with that in mind, but thats not how it works.
Thief gets in tries to burst, if he fails he gets out and tries again or just tries to burst 2 more times.
Its not about how thief works its about how it works under different conditions.
Lets imagine initiative as cooldown.
Infiltrators arrow every 6 seconds would be fine, but 3 infiltrators arrows in row is broken.
Basicly all thief balance issues revolves around initative, if you use infiltrators arrow to get to your teammate and then use pistol to interrupt stomp then its fine, but if you use all your initiative to decap point before any class can get to you from middle and then already have enough initiative to avoid any fight its not fine.
Same if you use your headshot to interrupt heal then its fine, if you use 3 headshots just because enemy is going down in hopes that maybe he heals then its not fine.
If you land your pistol whip when target cant dodge, teleport out of it then its fine, but if you PW 3 times and then land it 3rd time not because you caught target in bad position but because he already used hes defenses on first 2 then its not fine again.
And even shortbow 3, you can use it to avoid every incoming shot if you time it but then again you can spam it with eyes closed and you will still avoid everything.

By logic then true assassin in this game is zerker elementalist, you go in land your burst and go out, 1 try 1 chance, if you fail one of these things then either you did nothing or you died, in both cases you have to wait quite a while do repeat it.

I seriously dont even know how this could be fixed, maybe if only first 3 weapon skills would work with initiative system and 4,5 would have low cooldowns.

Why do you feel hit and run is an OP tactic?

Why do you feel thieves exhausting their initiative pool with spam and being vulnerable/offensively useless for 7 seconds is OP?

Why do you think PW spam isn’t counterable with only positioning/movement/risk on the thief’s part? It is. I’ve described how to counter PW in a few threads.

The scenarios you describe are not without repricussions. Hit and run makes you useless to your team while running to avoid damage. Exhausting initiative makes you unable to burst effectively. PW can be countered via blinding the windup, walking straight through the thief or staying Max melee distance and side stepping directly away, there are numerous other defenses that require defensive ability usages.

Because when compared to every other zerker its not hit and run, its hit retreat hit retreat hit run or hit hit hit hit run.
And the fact that thief is balanced around idea that if they exhaust initiative for one thing then they cant use it for something else makes them broken.
As i said previously in theory it would be fine that if thief exhausts all initiative for killing someone then he has no defense left, but if hes in situation where he doesnt need any defense then he just did OP dmg output with no downside.
Same with infiltrators arrow, if he uses all ini to get to point then he cant kill anyone on that point and that would be balanced but if there is noone on the point then again he used all initiative in OP way while having no downside to it.
On any other class you take risks, if you use that lightning flash for decap you cant use it to run away, if you use that fear to interrupt you cant use it get melee off you, you use that immobilize to stop someone from coming to you, you cant use it to stop him from getting away.
And others take these things in consideration yet with thief its all up to him noone knows how much initiative he has and will he be able to interrupt your heal or do you have to use stability to protect the heal etc.

Maybe another solution would be adding initiative somewhere on portrait so you know with what you are dealing and what to expect (same should be done for death shroud cause atm when you engage necro you have no idea how much life force he has and that gives RNG aspect to battle too)

To put it another way; I have yet to see any dragon or phoenix rank people that did not main thief.

girien.1209:

Ok, nerf thief infiltrator arrow.

Of course, the necro brainless fear chains (the Uber I WIN BUTTON) its fine.
the brainless necro AoE spam its fine.

Just nerf the thief mobility to the necros level. (but no give the fear, the hp pool…)

The amount of QQs about the thief is near the QQs Singularity.
Thief damage its now a crap (compared to necros, warriors, and eles)
Thief toughness its the worst of the game.
Now thief have only mobility, so NERF it!!

PD: Yesterday i was playing a necro in tpvp… Easy Mode… (as main thief im raging)

trolling? Thief does not have the worst toughness, has the highest mobility and highest single target damage and near permanent stealth and ya can spam y’r press 2 win buttons while an elementalist has to wait 45 seconds before he can do it again.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

To put it another way; I have yet to see any dragon or phoenix rank people that did not main thief.

Then you need to know more ppl.

Black Teagan.9215:

djooceboxblast.9876:

Increase initiative cost on Infiltrator’s Arrow. This would be a start to fixing the mobility problem that thieves currently bring to conquest.

I believe you mean, it’s just another step to make the thief to a class that can nothing better, than other classes.

“Oh, the thief is faster, than my class. They need a nerf.”
“Oh, the thief deals more dmg, than my class. They need a nerf.”
“Oh, the thief is stronger against a special class, than me. They need a nerf.”

There is already an endless list of this, but will this nerf suggestions ever stops?
I dont think so.

You can argue with the same logic about decap-engineer.

“Oh the engineer can decap better than other classes, They need a nerf”

The problem is conquest favours certain class-mechanics over others (thieves mobility is one). Therefore it doesn’t always make sense to follow through your logic-tree. Especially when not only the class but the mode is affected.

Wow, the stupidity in this thread. Any mention of thieves brings out the same thief players who fail to read the whole post.

The thing is with thieves you can’t kite or wait out abilities or dodge big abilities like you can other classes making the fight a game of chess. Initiative means you can just throw out abilities multiple times until you connect, and if you don’t connect ,port away and come back in when the guy has everything on cooldown.

I played a thief for 6 months, lowest risk class in the game.

Discordia.7293:

Try playing with MM necrozoomaster, or prismatic OP mesmer, or enginner condibunker or anyone condibunker easy mode. Press dodge with sigil of energy and spamm condition.

Sry Discordia but I just have to point out how funny it is to see your 1v1 argument exactly after the OP’s plea to recognize his wide angle argument for a second time

Leeto.1570:

Anyway i give up it really seems you dont understand the problem about thiefs.
I can kill thief by spamming scepter one on condi necro, i can kill thief with 3 life blasts on power necro, i can just kill thief with eyes closed on my condi engi, jeez it has nothing to do with 1v1 its about the fact that you have to play completely different game when there is thief around.
You are low on hp while sitting in clocktower window… what do you do? You position so casters cant hit you by line of sighting and you look out if melee is not going for you, if there is thief he just teleports to you and bursts you.
In legacy of foefire i sit on highground doing ranged dps, jump down for melee dps and take highground again if i know that someone can decap our close, if they have thief then i loose any melee dps cause if i jump down there is no way i will get to close before thief decaps it.
If you down someone you want to keep him in downstate to give your team advantage, if enemy team has thief he can unnoticed teleport accross map and burst you down.
It has nothing with 1v1s or having problems with killing thief in fair fights, its about fact that thief just takes out tactical play out of this game.

And no actually thief makes you not use your brain, instead of rotating and spamming aoe on mid while watching if someone is going for your close you have to sit on close 24/7 otherwise thief will just decap it all time.

I don’t see what is so hard for ppl to admit that thief is the only class with a persistant ability to teleport. That is the issue I see pointing out of your statements, and yes it is game changing.

Geiir.7603:

OP:

Thief was meant and designed to be the most mobile profession. Our style is get in, hit hard and gtfo. It’s the only profession with that style yes, but I find it challenging (for both the thief and when I’m playing against one). We were designed for superior mobility, hence the popular spot as roamer in teams. We are able to rotate fast, but our team fight capabilities suck. We can’t do kitten in a group fight if it wasn’t for our teleports, unless we figure we will spam shortbow, but then the team is better off with a warrior…

This sounds like WvW, where the issue is less noticable to be sure. However, in small, obstacle filled maps – having one class basically hovering above everyone like a spider is kinda weird.

How about they reworked the initiative system to a more ramp-up system instead of what it is now? So you had to earn you burst, and the system rewarded those players who could ramp-up faster than others, and a lower one for those who couldn’t.

For example, make more skills generate initiative and back stab could deal damage based of the amount of initiative spent. Not sure how many skills could generate initiative, or what skills in general, but I think this could be a better system than what is in place, and would not require an entire class redesign, of skills traits, utilities, etc.

Completely imo, with a system like this thief becomes more punishable, and has much, much more risk but as I said with a higher reward to better players.

want to know why thieves are cheese? play a roamer zerker ele, roamer zerker mesmer. well anything roamer zerker. pretty much this one single class shuts down everybody in this category so we have to spec tanky.

Know why I’d like to see a thief redesign?

Because I am getting kitten ed tired of there only being two kinds of thieves: Kill me unavoidably and so bad I can win with auto-attacks.

There seems to be absolutely no middle ground; either they are unstoppable juggernauts that teleport around everywhere and hit me with chained blind while causing huge damage or they are utterly worthless to the team.