Guild Wars 2

What do you think?

I know, I’m going to get an army of people saying “OMG U R TEH BAD” and “L2P, thief is fine, I play lots of other classes and blah”, but what do people think?

I’ve got a LOT of condition application mechanisms, but I can’t get a decent thief dead even when I’m at the top of my game.

Non thieves feel those things are annoying to deal with and hamper the flow and enjoyment of combat, thieves feel those things are still useless in the end in tournaments. Let’s assume thats true.

Then it still seems to me that thieves are a terrible class design wise. Its easy to go defensive about it and spout ‘just dodge, use your aoe, find the real mesmer, get a stunbreaker noob,’ but then you are just defending an annoying, ultimately ineffective class just because you feel personally insulted.

So we should all rip on thieves as much as we can. For they are lame.

See, that’s sort of what I mean. Fighting a mesmer, guardian, warrior, engineer, necro, ranger… all fun. Some harder than others, but they’re all fun.

Fighting a good thief is no fun at all. You keep having to hit nearest target to lock on, they’re blinking all over the place (the newer builds, I think it’s S/something, especially port-happy it seems) and it’s a chore.

It’s just annoying. Constantly fighting the GUI to keep the target locked, constantly having to re-apply conditions thanks to cleanse on stealth/port/whatever it is that’s doing it.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

See, that’s sort of what I mean. Fighting a mesmer, guardian, warrior, engineer, necro, ranger… all fun. Some harder than others, but they’re all fun.

Fighting a good thief is no fun at all. You keep having to hit nearest target to lock on, they’re blinking all over the place (the newer builds, I think it’s S/something, especially port-happy it seems) and it’s a chore.

The build is sword/dagger. The buff to the build was with the #3 skill that now steals boons rather than just remove them. The #2 skill is a short teleport that roots you and turns into a second skill that is a stun breaker and teleports the thief away.

It’s just annoying. Constantly fighting the GUI to keep the target locked, constantly having to re-apply conditions thanks to cleanse on stealth/port/whatever it is that’s doing it.

There is one skill that removes 3 conditions on the second teleport. It is the one stun breaker that most thieves run with. The remove one condition on stealth happens once very 3 seconds they are in stealth. The healing skill that stealths the thief also removes conditions.

As for it being fun or not to fight a thief I’m not sure what to tell you. I love the class because it is so mobile. I love timing my avoids. The moment you learn how to catch me is the moment I am dead.

Don’t have any issue w the thief.

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

The top of your game isn’t the top of the game then.

It sounds like the OP wants people to stand still so he can apply all his Conditions then wait for them to die. How would that be fun for the other player?

Even when I’m not playing on my main (thief) I enjoy fighting thieves just as much as I enjoy fighting any class.
When playing against a thief it’s about recognizing when they are going to burst and predicting their movement when they are stealthed.

As a thief I’ve also played against good necroes (your main I guess) who know how they protect their shrine (this is from tPvP experience since it’s in the spvp forum).
Dodging: Yes we can dodge a lot. It’s our only way to deal with damage. Most classes have blocks, invulns, protection boon or combinations. Thieves don’t have acces to any of those. Our only way of dealing with damage is to avoid it.
Cleansing: No, we thieves don’t have a lot of acces to it besides when we go perma stealth. But perma-stealth in pvp? Don’t think his team will win.
Porting: only sword main hand have acces to “too much porting”. This skill will burn away his initiatives if not used wisely and does minimal damage.

Ok, well first, I think thieves are in a good spot the place they are in right now.

Second, arenanets class balance philosophy on thieves is way off. “They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game”

For the love of God whatever you do don’t counter them with conditions, they’ll pretty much cure it all with hide and shadows and be tough to kill. Best way to kill a thief is ignore whatever arenanet says and just burst them down.

xmtrcv.5236:

The top of your game isn’t the top of the game then.

i think the thief players are a bunch of cheaters, even defying the laws of physics

SupahSpankeh.8452:

See, that’s sort of what I mean. Fighting a mesmer, guardian, warrior, engineer, necro, ranger… all fun. Some harder than others, but they’re all fun.

Fighting a good thief is no fun at all. You keep having to hit nearest target to lock on, they’re blinking all over the place (the newer builds, I think it’s S/something, especially port-happy it seems) and it’s a chore.

It’s just annoying. Constantly fighting the GUI to keep the target locked, constantly having to re-apply conditions thanks to cleanse on stealth/port/whatever it is that’s doing it.

Everyone wouldn’t be resorting to constant stealth if you guys didn’t complain that the purposefully highest burst class was being the highest burst class. If you are having trouble with a good thief, then adapt and get better.

PROTIP: If you want to know how a thief plays pvp, then play as a thief.

Depending what I play, sometime I have trouble with thief, sometime I don’t.

But what I agree on with the OP is, and I always said it, I hate fighting thief. They have a class mecanism that I dislike.

DD Thief are less an issue, because the fight is usually really fast.

But S/D the new FOTM and Wild bill (less an issue in tPvP) are so boring for me to fight.

Port port disappear turn your camera sin every direction, target target ect…

I feel like I’m fighting more with my UI and targetting then with the thief.

It’s a taste thing I guess, I dislike fighting opponent that can port everywhere and stay invis 80% of the fight.

Yeah, I figured a few folks would turn up who just accuse me of being “a bad”.

I play reasonably well, I’m not an epic player by any means but for some reason the only class I regularly struggle with is a thief. I don’t want people to stand still, I’m happy facing classes with cleanses which will (or can) kill me.

The problem I’ve got is with those classes whose cleanse and mobility makes my spec/class very, very difficult to win with.

I’m happy to accept I’m not a pr0 – I’ve got a wife, kids, and a fairly heavy duty job so I don’t get to spend as much time playing as some. Perhaps those same thieves could explain what a condition necro is supposed to do vs a SD thief with this many cleanses and ports?

Like, explain it to me. I’m using every ability and hitting them square with them – I’m dodging at what I beleive to be the right time (SD doesn’t burst like DD does AFAIK) and I’ve got a solid build with a decent amount of tankiness. Tell me what I’m doing wrong.

Here’s some tips:
1) As a necro, you have marks, use them and stand in them. A thief must get close to you to do damage (especially S/D). S/D thief only has 1 condi removal when he teleports back from infiltrators strike. Stack your condi’s so that your bleeds are covered with other condi’s. A thief can use Shadow Step to clear 3 but this is on a long cooldown. You should be able to apply condi’s faster than he can cleanse them. Thieves have very low HP pools so condi’s will chew through their HP very quickly.

2) Chills – a thief’s worst nightmare in almost any spec. Takes away our mobility and halves the range on HS as well. A slow thief is a dead thief.

3) Use your AOE’s. Even if your marks are down and on cooldown, use your AOE’s, evades don’t work so well against those. They hit even in stealth and once in stealth a thief has to either wait 3 seconds for 1 condi to clear or unstealth and restealth again to clear a condition quickly (or burn a valuable cooldown).

4) Don’t stand still. An easy target is a dead target. Stay in your marks but be moving all the time.

5) DS. Use it, AOE lifetap will hit a thief even in stealth, fear is great to use if you’ve been caught in an immobilize or to soak up a burst if all else fails and it gives you access to another chill.

They recently nerfed thief stealth and burst.

I didn’t have any unique trouble with thiefs prior to those nerfs. not to say I didn’t die to them, but I gave as good as I got. I found the mechanic fun to fight against. You have to think and anticipate.

so, thiefs have had recent nerfs, they are fine.

Kryshade, thanks.

I’ve tried all of those things – AFAIK, a 0/30/20/20 SD thief has a kittenload of condition removal, and I can’t keep them bleeding (let alone chilled) long enough to do anything.

I use my AoEs extensively. I use my marks, I spread them out and I cast them early then dodge between them to minimise the CD, forcing the thief to come to me and trigger them.

I don’t stand still.

I do use DS extensively. I’ve been a necro since BWE1. I know the AoE hits them, but do remember condi necros don’t do much damage with lifetransfer.

daydream – the thieves I’m having difficulty with are NOT the ones who got their burst nerfed. I’m talking SD, 0/30/20/20, heavy on the port, stealth and autoattack damage.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Kryshade, thanks.

I’ve tried all of those things – AFAIK, a 0/30/20/20 SD thief has a kittenload of condition removal, and I can’t keep them bleeding (let alone chilled) long enough to do anything.

I use my AoEs extensively. I use my marks, I spread them out and I cast them early then dodge between them to minimise the CD, forcing the thief to come to me and trigger them.

I don’t stand still.

I do use DS extensively. I’ve been a necro since BWE1. I know the AoE hits them, but do remember condi necros don’t do much damage with lifetransfer.

daydream – the thieves I’m having difficulty with are NOT the ones who got their burst nerfed. I’m talking SD, 0/30/20/20, heavy on the port, stealth and autoattack damage.

0-30-20-20 thieves have no damage and bring little to nothing in a team.

they may be strong 1vs1 but useless in everything else ( they’re not even that strong 1vs1 tbh).

I don’t see the point, a good necro is ALWAYS a hard fight for a thief, no matter what build he’s playing.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Kryshade, thanks.

I’ve tried all of those things – AFAIK, a 0/30/20/20 SD thief has a kittenload of condition removal, and I can’t keep them bleeding (let alone chilled) long enough to do anything.

I use my AoEs extensively. I use my marks, I spread them out and I cast them early then dodge between them to minimise the CD, forcing the thief to come to me and trigger them.

I don’t stand still.

I do use DS extensively. I’ve been a necro since BWE1. I know the AoE hits them, but do remember condi necros don’t do much damage with lifetransfer.

daydream – the thieves I’m having difficulty with are NOT the ones who got their burst nerfed. I’m talking SD, 0/30/20/20, heavy on the port, stealth and autoattack damage.

Im 15/30/0/0/25 S/D Thief (3/4k auto attack and 3-5k LS) and I haven’t found a Necro that could counter me yet. And I don’t even build in condition removal. It’s not the build you have dificulty with…

Hmm. IT’s the insane cleansing rate as much as the targetting – sceptre 2, dagger 5, staff 2/3/4/5 are all AoE, plus I have bleed on switch and MoB on dodge.

I’m hitting, I’m applying lots of bleeds, but every time that danged thief vanishes, they all go away.

I don’t struggle with other thieves – mostly a balanced lot – but the 0/30/20/20 build is wrecking me, and I can’t work it out.

shimmerless.4560:

I’ve tried S/D and it’s strong but by no means easy and it has weaknesses… my hats off to any players who pull it off well.

It’s stronger against ranged because they generally need to keep target to retaliate, whereas any melee with access to cleave can make it dangerous for the player to be in the area they want to be hitting #2 a lot. A well-played Necro is one of the best counters and can easily make it far too costly for a Thief to stay in melee range, making S/D’s elusiveness go to waste.

Here is how S/D works: Ignore the fact you have a dagger, verry important. If you spot a target, press 2 to get close if you have to or/then steal to put poison up (increased damage from trait) press 3 twice if they are moving, press 1 if they don’t. Keep pressing 1 untill you see they have a boon up, press 3 twice to steal the boon, continue pressing 1. Dodge if you have to, heal when you reach 40% health.

Cleansing condition in stealth relies on being in stealth. If they’re running sword dagger then they need to use cloak and dagger to stealth. Watch out for this and evade, interrupt it to reduce their self healing, if they have shadow’s rejuvenation, and their condition removal.

You still need to deal with their heal and condition removal with sword 2, but using fear at the right moments will allow your conditions to damage them. It’s not the easiest build to kill with conditions, but it can be done.

xmtrcv.5236:

The top of your game isn’t the top of the game then.

Owned.

and /thread

Alex.6940:

Cleansing condition in stealth relies on being in stealth. If they’re running sword dagger then they need to use cloak and dagger to stealth. Watch out for this and evade, interrupt it to reduce their self healing, if they have shadow’s rejuvenation, and their condition removal.

You still need to deal with their heal and condition removal with sword 2, but using fear at the right moments will allow your conditions to damage them. It’s not the easiest build to kill with conditions, but it can be done.

I don’t need to build in condition removal, I simply dodge/evade. The only reason I have a dagger in offhand is because it gives the 3 skill on sword I need for evading/stealing boons. Besides if I see a necro I get to a higher ground( like the ledges above keep via svanir/chief in FoN) and lower their health with shortbow untill they used their cd’s run away or have low enough health to be easily dealt with in melee combat.
I only find bunker build necros hard to kill, but they do so little damage the fight lasts for minutes, long enough for help to arrive.

What? Did I read “Thief” and “too much” in the same topic?
Hundreds of players will come here and say L2P baddie, improve your skill and blah blah blah.

Guys, I play a Thief myself and I’m planning to move to Thief as my main profession (just need some time to gear it out properly). Yes, they are definitely not that good in PvE, but in PvP and WvWvW, man… Only a stupid can say they are on the weak side or balanced.

And yes, they dodge too much.
Just spending 20 points in the Acrobatic traitline gives you a massive amount of free dodge and evades.
Pick the Vigorous Recovery with Withdraw and S/D and you are a dodge bunny.
Essentialy, you can dodge more than twice as often as a normal profession do, plus you have FS, Withdraw, an optional Roll for Initiative and Infiltrator’s Strike.
Who needs toughness and vitality? You can just spam dodge and mitigate 3/4 of the overall damage. The other 1/4 is healed.

Oh, did I mentioned the recharge-less stunbreaker?

S/D was already strong before the buff and most of the thief community didn’t realize that because they were too busy into spamming 2 on D/D.
Now they literally pushed a new boon-hate thief meta. Bye Guardians, bye Elementalists.

rmBossa.4621:

xmtrcv.5236:

The top of your game isn’t the top of the game then.

Owned.

and /thread

sigh

golfclap

Forum trolls and thieves are depressingly easy to predict.

To the other, less feckless contributers:

The dodge thing might be the problem – dodging through marks causes them to detonate harmlessly, and when they do take a hit or get a significant amount of bleeds stacked, they just purge the lot in stealth.

Hmm. Then of course this build does do horrible things to guards/eles/people with Lyssa as well as condition classes. I’ve been watching a SD thief in spectator mode, and it’s amazin.

I suspect we’ll be seeing a lot more of this in the coming months, both in build and forum posts.

Just because you run conditions doesn’t mean that you should get automatic immunity from counters to your build.

It would be like complaining that Guardians have too much toughness because they can become virtually immune to direct damage… Which is true, but conditions can hurt them a lot if they don’t know what they’re doing. Vice-versa on thief.

Dont know if it makes u feel better, but thats imo the most skill dependand thief build.
So maybe u had bad luck and were up against someone really good.

And condimancer with long cast times is also weak to their daze. Ds3+ds2, dodge, try kiting and call for backup, since they at least cant insta kill

Mrbig.8019:

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Kryshade, thanks.

I’ve tried all of those things – AFAIK, a 0/30/20/20 SD thief has a kittenload of condition removal, and I can’t keep them bleeding (let alone chilled) long enough to do anything.

I use my AoEs extensively. I use my marks, I spread them out and I cast them early then dodge between them to minimise the CD, forcing the thief to come to me and trigger them.

I don’t stand still.

I do use DS extensively. I’ve been a necro since BWE1. I know the AoE hits them, but do remember condi necros don’t do much damage with lifetransfer.

daydream – the thieves I’m having difficulty with are NOT the ones who got their burst nerfed. I’m talking SD, 0/30/20/20, heavy on the port, stealth and autoattack damage.

0-30-20-20 thieves have no damage and bring little to nothing in a team.

they may be strong 1vs1 but useless in everything else ( they’re not even that strong 1vs1 tbh).

I don’t see the point, a good necro is ALWAYS a hard fight for a thief, no matter what build he’s playing.

plz people listen to this….its same with d/p thieves….bring nothign to a team. good 1 v1 or 2v2 or maybe 1v2 but as a big team/zerg….useless…..at best they cancel out 1 person of the enemy zerg on the edge…usually an upscale anyway

What a funny thread.

@OP

You initially asked a question. “What do you think?”
When the majority of people told you what they think, you don’t seem to be able to handle it.
You said you’re an adult with a family and all that. Are you not mature enough to just chalk this one up as a loss? You’re wrong. Simple as that.

Yes a S/D thief can cleanse conditions using Infiltrators Strike and then return, but this only cleanses one condi. The initiative cost to cleanse 3-4 of them is too prohibitive and once out of initiative a s/d thief is a sitting duck. The key is to cover up the bleeds so that the other condi’s like poison, weakness etc are cleansed first.

Honestly you should be having more trouble against a d/p thief with condi cleanse in stealth than a s/d one. Necro’s dont’ rely on boons very much so the only thing you’re having a hard time with is the raw sustained damage from sword. You need to make sure you’re kiting properly, using your marks effectively (i.e. don’t just spam them all in a row). Use your fear mark for when you need a breather, don’t chill then fear as it makes the range covered by fear negligible and allows the thief to stay on top of you.

A good necro is a hard fight for a thief. I consider myself pretty decent and when I fight a high quality necro I spend half the fight cussing at being constantly chilled, feared away and bled to death. I pay dearly for getting close to them because I know I’m about to eat 6-9 stacks of bleeds as well.

I know you say you’re doing all of the above but I’d recommend you focus on the kiting aspect and proper use of your marks and seeing how long you can live vs trying to kill the thief quickly. The hardest part about being a necro is learning how to kite and survive since they have crap all for defensive utilities/stun breaks.

So thieves are finally finding a way to be useful in pvp so now everyone complains. Thieves have been trash for months so they got a small buff vs boon heavy classes. Sorry but it was needed. Condi thieves in tpvp would get cleansed so hard that they’d be near useless and power thieves would get tanked and spanked since you’re forced to sit on a point all day or lose. Tank thieves don’t exist b/c every other class can tank better than a thief. Sorry but this buff was needed, just b/c you don’t enjoy fighting a good player of a certain class doesn’t mean other people don’t.

Only a bad thief loses to a necro no matter how good the necro is. Thief is a faceroll easy to play class like Mesmer they should beat you and if they dont they are truly bad. The best you can do against a good thief with that build is delay the death that’s coming.

Its a bad matchup necro marks just dont have what it takes to drop a thief thats not pure glass, it would help if Anet puts greater marks with faster recharge in one triat.

Dont stress it you bring more to small scale fights. Yes i agree its a pain fighting a thief same with mesmer its not about skill its about the amount of fighting with the GUI you have to do constantly, you fight the GUI more then the class.

Stupid design.

Seriously? only issue you should have with s/d would be panning your camera often enough to see estimately where they open from, you have ranged aoe, so they arent going to try and sit on point and out range you. Fight where they ported in, because when they port back theyll port on you then they wont be able to port around everywhere without using cooldowns to “double port”. Theyll save their cooldowns for condition removal/stun removal, fight where they ported from and they wont be an issue to keep track of, pretty much all their skills port to target and then port back. Shadowstep and shortbow 5 are the exceptions(iirc).

FYI, im finding the good bunker necros by far the most deadliest especially for a thief, theyll CC us and heal half our burst so we cant down em. Maybe you need to spend more time learning other classes main/popular abilities, then go back and learn your necro to hit most of their weaknesses.

Btw a good necro can out condition 1 persons condition removal, even a guardian. Never over stack and force the cleanse, let the 5 stacks tick away if they cleanse put 5 more stacks on with some poison, because either theyll waste their cleanse on little condition stacks, or theyll whittle away, then you just have to survive, if they waste their cleanses you burst em full of conds and watch em drop. Atleast the “good” necro’s i’ve faced are capable of it.

@OP:

just reroll a thief and understand the abilitys + skills.
This will improve your skills against a thief, but well, if you have trouble targeting a thief you perhaps don’t have your skills bound to keys + play in 1st person zoom mode…

Then you will have trouble against anybody who moves, not only thiefs.

Also NO thief build has all the utils everybody talks about..

If we want to have “more” dodges then others, we need to spend 15 traitpoints in acrobatics.

If we want to have condi cleanse every 3sec in stealh we have to spend 10 points in ShadowArts.

If we want to have DMG we need to spend 30 points in CriticalStrikes.

If we don’t want to be out of Ini too fast we have to spend 20points in Acrobatics + 15 in Trickery …

Also with weapon sets.
Sure, SB is nice for the “extra” evade on #2., however we are then limited to either S/D oder D/x .

Sword ist okay , but its main DMG source is AutoAttack !
You won’t have the “burst” you have with Dagger mainhand.

Also getting to stealth with D/P ( BP – Hs ) is much more reliable then Cloak’n’Dagger .
But, you need a Dagger mainhand to use it.

You see, a thief has much more problem then people give credit for.

If you really want to improve your Gameplay against thiefs ( btw. this counts for any class ) reroll it, and lear the basic combos / mechanics !

Lol @ this thread.

Next months QQ agenda: Thieves exist, please delete them.

Incurafy.6329:

Lol @ this thread.

Next months QQ agenda: Thieves exist, please delete them.

that is currently this month’s qq… and last month’s… Actually that has been going on for a long time.

Thieves are horrible one trick ponies because the people that play them are scared to die.
Give them hell.

especially when you end up in a game of 3vs1 and the lame auto balance fails to push one onto your team. i hate PvP in guildwars 2.

Brinson.7289:

Thieves are horrible one trick ponies because the people that play them are scared to die.
Give them hell.

That, or you just haven’t seen any of the latest thief builds, apparently.

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

i’d be okay with removing thief from game.

see ya, don’t let the door hit ya on the way out

just remove all classes in PvP and replace with crash dummies, everyone has same skills. no more complaining. “which i do alot” lol

We rely on avoiding damage, because that’s the only way for us to stay alive… Most necros are a nightmare for thieves, especially if they’re condition specced. They can apply more conditions than I can ever remove and they have way more hp than thieves. I recently fought a good condition necro, and we ended up just bowing to each other and walk different paths (this was WvW though).

In PvP thief is one of the weakest professions. We can’t get our damage high without sacrificing all our survivability. Lots of damage = less dodges and condition removal, and the other way around.

Xom.9264:

Only a bad thief loses to a necro no matter how good the necro is. Thief is a faceroll easy to play class like Mesmer they should beat you and if they dont they are truly bad. The best you can do against a good thief with that build is delay the death that’s coming.

Its a bad matchup necro marks just dont have what it takes to drop a thief thats not pure glass, it would help if Anet puts greater marks with faster recharge in one triat.

Dont stress it you bring more to small scale fights. Yes i agree its a pain fighting a thief same with mesmer its not about skill its about the amount of fighting with the GUI you have to do constantly, you fight the GUI more then the class.

Stupid design.

thieves and d/d eles are the hardest to play…..play well at that. mesmers are easy. tell u what. give me 3 choices of class to pick. ill play it and beat you one on one atleast half thetime. all i have truly mastered is thief. so u will ahve the advantage. then tell me how easy it is.

Travlane.5948:

thieves and d/d eles are the hardest to play…..play well at that. mesmers are easy. tell u what. give me 3 choices of class to pick. ill play it and beat you one on one atleast half thetime. all i have truly mastered is thief. so u will ahve the advantage. then tell me how easy it is.

Oh, boy…
Well, the important thing is that you believe so.

s/d is the most confusing build in the game for an enemy to play against if specced/utilities are right… 100% nothing more confusing than dozens of teleports with dozens of invis and several dazes and a couple doesnt evades and a heal every 15 secs with dozens of blinds…..although dmg is average its very hard to defend against a professional s/d player which takes many months of mastering…… can be proven. or do u have a counterpoint which example of build/class? plz do go on. dont just say well if u believe it thats nice….then i respond “well if u dont im sorry for your lack of experience” then we get nowhere like 6th graders arguing if somebody is out in dodgeball. come correct. nothign wrong with debating or “opinionizing” .

Ranger, To much cleanse evade and swoop!
Elementalist, To much cleanse evade and RtL!
Guardian, To much cleanse evade and heals!

Travlane.5948:

s/d is the most confusing build in the game for an enemy to play against if specced/utilities are right… 100% nothing more confusing than dozens of teleports with dozens of invis and several dazes and a couple doesnt evades and a heal every 15 secs with dozens of blinds…..although dmg is average its very hard to defend against a professional s/d player which takes many months of mastering…… can be proven. or do u have a counterpoint which example of build/class? plz do go on. dont just say well if u believe it thats nice….then i respond “well if u dont im sorry for your lack of experience” then we get nowhere like 6th graders arguing if somebody is out in dodgeball. come correct. nothign wrong with debating or “opinionizing” .

Yes. You are right. The S/D skillcap is higher compared to other thief’s builds. BUT, BUT, this doesn’t mean that evades aren’t too much. They should be toned down a bit to the point that you can’t afford to spam them, but you can be extremely effective if you time them correctly. Right now, you can just spam you evades getting nice results.

Also, Infiltrator’s Strike should be looked into. No-cooldown stunbreaker is insane, seriously.