Guild Wars 2

So apparently since conditions are over the top in sPvP, we should take a look at a possible root of the problem: the “condition damage” portion of the condition amulets.

Take the Rabid Amulet for example:

Amulet + Jewel
569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
798 + 125 Condition Damage

For the amount of survivability that you get from the rabid amulet, 798 + 125 condition damage doesn’t seem reasonable. I could also invert what I just said and say for the amount of damage that you get from the rabid amulet, 569 + 75 toughness seems way over the top.

Though if the amulets have nothing to do with conditions being crazy, then what is causing conditions to be over the top?

Keep it clean.

Bump. Need constructive replies, not detrimental replies.

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Adapt to the Meta. It will shift eventually.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Adapt to the Meta. It will shift eventually.

= Go necro and start spamming random kitten on points….

sadly..

Hm.. interesting point, OP. Something I’ve always wondered is why it is that the only amulets with malice as a supplementary stat are shaman and rampager. It always bugged me that if I wanted to just have conditions as a supplement, I either had to go full DPS or nearly full defense. I always kind of wanted Carrion to provide power as its main stat, then condition damage as its supplementary stat.

It is a flaw in sPVP in general. I think it may have been what guided me to using condition builds in the first place, since for the first month of the game’s release I did nothing but sPVP. The amulets themselves are fairly flawed:

Berserker: does what it says.

Celestial: just good enough to be bad at everything.

Cleric: defensive amulet through and through. Not bad, but defensive.

Knight: little known fact to anyone but a number cruncher, but the knight amulet actually provides very little offense, making it inferior to the Soldier’s amulet for anything that isn’t proc related.

Rampagers: Gives you enough precision to do nothing with it.

Shaman: Works fine as a defensive amulet.

Soldiers: arguably the best amulet since it provides good bulk and substantial power.

Valkyries: decent amulet, however you don’t have the precision to use the crit damage it provides.

In PVE and WvW we’ve resolved this issue quite easily: we can mix and match our equipment to fine-tune our builds quite precisely, and where that fails we have food buffs to take care of the rest. But in sPVP, you end up having to either go full out, go bulky, or get stats you can’t really use if you build for anything other than conditions. I think it may be for this reason that we had a bunker game for so long: bunker builds simply take advantage of every point they are given in a meaningful fashion.

What I’d love to see is either 1 of two things, since this is a problem that does more than just affect the balance of conditions in sPVP:

#1: More options to fine tune the builds via multiple jewel slots. If we’re going to get 923/644/644, then the least they can do is divide this by 6 and let use customize our stats to a point.

#2: More jewels. The fact that we don’t have a jewel that has power as a primary with precision or condition damage as a secondary is just unacceptable. The devs seriously need to make the following happen (in order of primary/secondary/secondary)

Power/Precision/Toughness or Vitality
Power/Malice/Vitality or Toughness
Precision/Critical damage/Toughness or Vitality

and so on.

…and then I remember why the condi amulets are like that.

Now, for a bit of history, there is a reason why it is the amulets were like this, specifically Carrion and Rabid. People don’t bring this up often, but condition cleansing in the game was originally substantially better than it is now. It is hard to find specific example, but one such example is Mantra of Resolve. Originally on activation, Power Cleanse would cleanse every condition the mesmer had. A build with mantras could fully cleanse themselves twice in the battle before going into the relatively short cooldown. Fighting something like this on a condition build was near suicide, since the mesmer had both the ability to wipe your offense clean, but the utilities to stall you while it was on cooldown. I also think Arcane Thievery was in a similar boat, transferring everything instead of just 3.

I think when the devs designed the game, they originally intended it to be slower paced than what it has become. Hence, why it is the only true “offensive” amulet is the berserker. But, of course, the meta spiraled out of Arenanets control.

shimmerless.4560:

condi specs have a very low entry to play and what they give in return is basically spvp’s equivalent of mobile artillery

^QFT condis are way out of hand.

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

The problem is moreover that condition builds have thoughness, which directly affect power builds. On the otherside power builds have no stat to reduce condition damage. As simple as that.

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

Except for now we are seeing “burst” condition damage. DOTS is fine let them occur OVER TIME. But burst and condition damage should not be hand in hand. Right now they are.

The heavy condition damage amulets aren’t a problem; the professions are. With the latest change to necromancer Dhuumfire, the condition damage is strong, but it’s arguable whether it’s too much.

Balancing condition damage options for professions is difficult. You have to find a balance where they can put on pressure through conditions in the face of condition removal, but not make everyone fall over dead shortly after condition removal has been expended. Part of this is in the conditions applied. Burning and Fear (with Terror) do the most damage per second. Bleeding does the least per stack and because it goes up in intensity, is often the first condition to be cleared. But the rate at which bleeding stacks can be adjusted in balancing. Then consider which conditions you apply to a single target vs. an area.

A good case study would be why grenade engineer was strong before the June 25th patch, but didn’t break the meta-game whereas necromancer after the patch did.

Exedore.6320:

The heavy condition damage amulets aren’t a problem; the professions are. With the latest change to necromancer Dhuumfire, the condition damage is strong, but it’s arguable whether it’s too much.

Balancing condition damage options for professions is difficult. You have to find a balance where they can put on pressure through conditions in the face of condition removal, but not make everyone fall over dead shortly after condition removal has been expended. Part of this is in the conditions applied. Burning and Fear (with Terror) do the most damage per second. Bleeding does the least per stack and because it goes up in intensity, is often the first condition to be cleared. But the rate at which bleeding stacks can be adjusted in balancing. Then consider which conditions you apply to a single target vs. an area.

A good case study would be why grenade engineer was strong before the June 25th patch, but didn’t break the meta-game whereas necromancer after the patch did.

Well duuhuumfire and terror is nerfed.
You cant compare HgH to Terrormancer, just because engis have more armor, more mobility, more cc and more suravobility. Necro don’t. So it is the easiest target in the game (in teamfights)

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

jportell.2197:

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

Except for now we are seeing “burst” condition damage. DOTS is fine let them occur OVER TIME. But burst and condition damage should not be hand in hand. Right now they are.

Could you expand on this because I’m just not following it. By burst do you mean the ability to drop a ton of conditions all at once on multiple targets? Or do you literally mean burst damage on top of condition damage?

To my knowledge, most classes that use conditions at all (at least to the point to warrant complaint) are using rabid gear which doesn’t have power. In WvW it’s the same way, except there people are using Apothecary gear for the most part. So while I suppose it’s true that a class could hit something with their other skills, they should hit like a wet noodle.

Atherakhia.4086:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

First of all there are 2 stats for condition spec: Condition Dmg and Condition Duration. Both of them are important to deal good dmg. And since most of necros are now going full with both of stats, it is pretty clear where the dmg is comming from. Also making Condis Crit is a horrible idea, since necros have alrdy good crit chances if they are full in condis.

Atherakhia.4086:

jportell.2197:

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

Except for now we are seeing “burst” condition damage. DOTS is fine let them occur OVER TIME. But burst and condition damage should not be hand in hand. Right now they are.

Could you expand on this because I’m just not following it. By burst do you mean the ability to drop a ton of conditions all at once on multiple targets? Or do you literally mean burst damage on top of condition damage?

To my knowledge, most classes that use conditions at all (at least to the point to warrant complaint) are using rabid gear which doesn’t have power. In WvW it’s the same way, except there people are using Apothecary gear for the most part. So while I suppose it’s true that a class could hit something with their other skills, they should hit like a wet noodle.

He was speaking about Terror!

Condition gear in general has toughness because Conditions in general require the person to stay up longer then a heavy burst player.

We’re talking about a game that allows players to be hit for half their life in a single high damage hit even if they have high toughness. My BM Bunker Ranger can stay up far far longer then my Ranger wearing berserker gear and opening to pop people for 10k Mauls for Example….But It takes me a while to kill most players with BM Bunker, its slow….hence why its a Bunker Build.

its the same with Necro’s, If they couldn’t stay up with Toughness and Conditions, they’d just go their power builds and pop you in the face over and over with 5k nukes.

I think the main problem is, So many players don’t want to run anti condition builds, Just like many players didn’t want to kill the Ranger pet, We’re dealing with a generation that honestly is the Call of Duty generation, You didn’t see many former DAOC players whining that Pets were over the top, or that Ranger Pets were scary, because they dealt with things like theurgist in the past, and knew you had to actually clear pets when dealing with a pet user (i will flat out gut your pet if I think you’re a spirit ranger or someone who’s doesn’t have any survivability on them, Necro’s, i’ll kill Flesh Golems right off the bat if I see them up)

Now we have people who don’t wanna deal with Conditions, ….There is a Nasty kitten Necro in the back line throwing conditions, Don’t wanna deal with it…Rather just gut conditions completely…

We can all go back to Thieves spamming Backstab, Warriors spamming 100b, and Mesmer’s spamming Zerker

Atherakhia.4086:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

Good lord, so much backwards reasoning… I almost don’t know where to begin.
But I’ll try anyway.
Conditions were DESIGNED to have a single stat fueling them and, rather than have a damage output that is gained through multiplying three different stats (which ends up a ridiculously high number), they generate damage output THROUGH TIME. What better way to buy time for the conditions to do their thing than… defensive stats?

And your ideas would flat out not work. Except for the condition duration one. I’d kill for a condition duration/condition damage/toughness combination. Chance to resist dispel? Yes, let’s implement MORE RNG into the game. Chance to spread to nearest target? I… No. Just no. Fueled by power? Are you kidding me? Why? What good could possibly come from this?

emon.1863:

Atherakhia.4086:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

First of all there are 2 stats for condition spec: Condition Dmg and Condition Duration. Both of them are important to deal good dmg. And since most of necros are now going full with both of stats, it is pretty clear where the dmg is comming from. Also making Condis Crit is a horrible idea, since necros have alrdy good crit chances if they are full in condis.

Conditin duration isn’t a real stat though. It’s available through traits for select few sigils/runes. It isn’t a real hit on your item budget and players are using it primarily for Fear and the fact that it works on conditions is just gravy.

And as for allowing conditions to crit, it would obviously come with a DPS loss as well. For example, cut condition damage by 30% across the board but then allow them to crit.

Atherakhia.4086:

And as for allowing conditions to crit, it would obviously come with a DPS loss as well. For example, cut condition damage by 30% across the board but then allow them to crit.

That would make conditions less damage-over-time and more burst. That would rather defeat the point of conditions. Do you even lift?

Atherakhia.4086:

emon.1863:

Atherakhia.4086:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

First of all there are 2 stats for condition spec: Condition Dmg and Condition Duration. Both of them are important to deal good dmg. And since most of necros are now going full with both of stats, it is pretty clear where the dmg is comming from. Also making Condis Crit is a horrible idea, since necros have alrdy good crit chances if they are full in condis.

Conditin duration isn’t a real stat though. It’s available through traits for select few sigils/runes. It isn’t a real hit on your item budget and players are using it primarily for Fear and the fact that it works on conditions is just gravy.

And as for allowing conditions to crit, it would obviously come with a DPS loss as well. For example, cut condition damage by 30% across the board but then allow them to crit.

You know that some classes are actually designed to be condi class?!
If you want to cut condis 30% then i would also like to see boons effects cut 30%.
As a necro i have the worst in the game possobilitys to get boons and it will kick necro out of tourneys again.

The Boz.2038:

Atherakhia.4086:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them. Where a power build has power, precision, and crit damage, a condition build has only condition damage. This then allows a condition spec to focus the remaining item budget on defensive stats like toughness, vitality, and healing power. If you notice, the only bunkers in this game are also condition spec’d as well.

The solution seems obvious… either remove the condition damage stat and make it a function of power (like WoW has) or simply allow conditions to crit and thus requiring condition classes to also stack crit chance and crit damage. Or, alternatively, just come up with a different stat for condition classes to collect. Things like:

A stat to increase condition duration.
A stat to increase condition resistance to dispell.
A stat to give conditions a chance to spread to nearest target.
etc.

Good lord, so much backwards reasoning… I almost don’t know where to begin.
But I’ll try anyway.
Conditions were DESIGNED to have a single stat fueling them and, rather than have a damage output that is gained through multiplying three different stats (which ends up a ridiculously high number), they generate damage output THROUGH TIME. What better way to buy time for the conditions to do their thing than… defensive stats?

And your ideas would flat out not work. Except for the condition duration one. I’d kill for a condition duration/condition damage/toughness combination. Chance to resist dispel? Yes, let’s implement MORE RNG into the game. Chance to spread to nearest target? I… No. Just no. Fueled by power? Are you kidding me? Why? What good could possibly come from this?

You’re right… this game was designed around conditions working with a single stat with the idea that they’ll focus on defensive stats so DOT’s can work over time and the class would still function. And look where we are now? Conditions are overpowered. They fuel bunker builds. You must use an all or nothing approach to conditions. We have 5 threads on the front page all complaining that the current system doesn’t work.

So lets go by one thing at a time (and keep in mind these mechanics of DOTs criting, or being fueled by a primary stat work in other MMO’s)

If conditions were linked to power you’d allow classes to use all their skills and builds would be more versatile and diverse. You also have the benefit of allowing toughness to work against condition damage.

If conditions needed multiple stats, it would bring bunker builds down to where they should be… sacrificing real damage in favor of defense. If condition damage was reduced across the board by XX% because they were now allowed to crit, or were made more reliable, or had any number of other things working for them, bunker builds couldn’t focus on defensive stats to the exclusion of everything else. If they did, they’d actually sacrifice damage to do it, which they should (and don’t) have to.

Now I realize this is the sPvP forum and everyne here’s is against on crit things, and RNG in any fashion, but you’ll need to suck it up and realize that every game is RNG based and it’s that RNG that helps provide pressure on the enemy and push a fight in a different direction. This isn’t a FPS or a 25 year old MMO. We’re not breaking any new ground here.

WoW has eSport arenas, critting DOTs, single power stat focus, resilience, etc. It works there. It could work here. And it’s not even that big a leap to make it work.

sigh
OK, here we go…

Atherakhia.4086:

You’re right… this game was designed around conditions working with a single stat with the idea that they’ll focus on defensive stats so DOT’s can work over time and the class would still function. And look where we are now? Conditions are overpowered. They fuel bunker builds. You must use an all or nothing approach to conditions. We have 5 threads on the front page all complaining that the current system doesn’t work.

Conditions aren’t overpowered.
Wow, that wasn’t hard. It’s as if I just blew away your entire argument using… your own argument.
Number of threads on the front page is now a reliable metric to use when balancing the game, is it?

Atherakhia.4086:

So lets go by one thing at a time (and keep in mind these mechanics of DOTs criting, or being fueled by a primary stat work in other MMO’s)

This isn’t other MMOs, this is Guild Wars 2. Also, “works” is defined very, very loosely.

Atherakhia.4086:

If conditions were linked to power you’d allow classes to use all their skills and builds would be more versatile and diverse. You also have the benefit of allowing toughness to work against condition damage.

If anything, you’d see a DECREASE in viable builds. Why use a greatsword and turn power, precision, and critical damage into reliable up-front damage if you could use a sword and turn power, precision, and critical damage into reliable up-front damage backed up by a long-term pressure of bleed stacks?
Also, conditions are a counter to toughness tanking. Have you noticed how people are saying that toughness is a much better stat than vitality? Conditions are here to make sure it doesn’t get out of hand.

Atherakhia.4086:

If conditions needed multiple stats, it would bring bunker builds down to where they should be… sacrificing real damage in favor of defense. If condition damage was reduced across the board by XX% because they were now allowed to crit, or were made more reliable, or had any number of other things working for them, bunker builds couldn’t focus on defensive stats to the exclusion of everything else. If they did, they’d actually sacrifice damage to do it, which they should (and don’t) have to.

It would destroy bunker builds. If you’re a bunker with no damage, what exactly is your plan?
Better yet, if you’re a condition build with no tankiness, … why? Why not just say “bother that nonsense” and generate some sweet up-front damage? What’s the point of setting up damage over time if you can’t survive long enough for that damage to even happen?

Atherakhia.4086:

Now I realize this is the sPvP forum and everyne here’s is against on crit things, and RNG in any fashion, but you’ll need to suck it up and realize that every game is RNG based and it’s that RNG that helps provide pressure on the enemy and push a fight in a different direction. This isn’t a FPS or a 25 year old MMO. We’re not breaking any new ground here.

Circular argument is circular.

Atherakhia.4086:

WoW has eSport arenas, critting DOTs, single power stat focus, resilience, etc. It works there. It could work here. And it’s not even that big a leap to make it work.

Why don’t you go play WoW then?
I, for one, don’t play WoW because the combat mechanics in that game are atrocious. That is why I play this game, and not that game.

It would seems the overwhelming majority of people disagree with your assessment that conditions aren’t overpowered. I personally agree with you for the most part as I only find burn to be the problem (and burn in general, not specific to the necromancer). The only other way conditions could be considered overpowered is their AE application.

I also don’t think you’d see a reduction in weapon use because, using your example, GS would still provide higher burst damage whereas sword would still be a sustained weapon. They fit different playstyles and functions on the battlefield. You would just see skills for weapons that currently aren’t used or used well, actually have a use. Take Warrior rifle for example. The auto attack is awful because it’s a bleed attack on a power weapon. Similar issues for nearly every class.

As for tankiness, I do find that classes are maintaining too much damage for their survivability. but I do agree with you that condition classes will be harmed heavily by a loss of survivability. I would hope having the power change to incrase raw damage in addition to the crit function would help level things out where their damage to survivability ration is still balanced, but I agree with you it will be a problem.

All I know is the way WoW launched it was like GW2 and it was awful. Over the course of 5 years they pulled it together and WoW is currently built fairly well where stats and PvP balance is concerned. This game shouldn’t be a WoW clone, but that doesn’t mean we ignore everything that came before it on principle.

But understand your point.

There is an easy solution to the over abundance of conditions that doesn’t affect profession balance at all (and accessible to all professions) – see link below to another thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/TOP-3-Ways-to-Balance-sPvP

Seriously stop QQing about condition “BURST” damage. There is no such thing. There is no stat / ability / trait / runes / elite / food buff that affects the TICK frequency of damaging conditions. It’s fixed. Conditions don’t crit either. The damage is stable (excluding the insignificant direct damage from the player skills that apply conditions) as long as they can mantain the stacks of bleed / burning / poison which are dealing the damage.

IE: you have 10 stacks of bleeding on you that each deal 100 dmg, it means every second you lose 1k hp. There is nothing (except stacking more bleeds or adding poison / burning) that will change that. You constantly lose 1k hp / second unless you remove it, or it wears off if is not refreshed. For an average 15k hp, that means from the moment you’re loaded with 10 stacks of bleed and they are refreshed, you have 15 seconds until you die from natural causes.

How on earth is that burst? There are several classes who can do 15k dmg in a window of 3 seconds (less for s/d ele LOL). They can also usually stun / knock back / knock down you before actually bursting.

So sorry if conditions deal respectable damage, and it doesn’t take a stack of 10 bleeds 1 minute to kill you.

Stop comparing WoW to GW2. Non healing classes had no 15-30s heals or dispells (and still don’t have). DoT classes had access to 8s (4s latest expansion) of CC on the dot-ed targets (so their dots actually did damage and buy them time).

Most damaging condition in game is burning, period. Several classes have access to it, via weapon sets or traits. Bleeding needs to stack to achieve respectable damage, and unless you do PvE rotation on a dummy you will never get more than ~10 stacks on a target at any time (as you also have to use other abilities that don’t apply bleeding, move, dodge, get CCed etc).

It’s only natural for a class that specializes in condi damage, to have access to aoe appliance of those, since the game meta is AoE focused (every single class has at least 1 weapon set for AoE dmg, be it power or condi based).

There is no overabundance to conditions either. All classes have access – even as power builds, to at least some conditions (chill, cripple, poison, bleeding, burning, blind, weakness etc). But classes that are by design made to be very good at applying said conditions, have multiple ways of doing so (engineers and necros obviously). Also said classes have no option with different weapon sets to get AoE cleave with a power build, which is why the game is balanced.

If you can’t adapt to ever evolving meta is nobody’s fault but yours.

Help me out on this one, lets say the goal is to make condition classes a little more active and less passive to preserve their DPS so that they become a little more punishable without messing up PvE balancing, how would you change the amulets into something a little more reasonable just so applying condition damage becomes less brainless?

Keep it clean.

Lets add a Witherer set, that has Condition Damage/Precision/Condition Precision, and add the ability for conditions to crit. It’ll remove the defensive stat from the highest condition damage armor set! Kappa.

brb, banging head against wall

For Raw Dmg + Sustain have:
- Clerig
- Knight
- Soldier
- Valkyrie

I think the problem are in player’s builds, not in amulets or conditions itself.

I have an sPvP/WvW perspective (no tPvP), so take this for what it’s worth. However, I’ve been wrestling with this for a while. On my Warrior, I feel totally inundated with conditions all the time.

Part of that is because I’m a melee-heavy, and I wander into AoEs more often than I’d care to admit (Oh look it’s a ring of fire, but the enemy is in it, so I guess I better cross it right this second).

Another part is because I’ve been seemingly focusing my avoidance practice on physical attacks., whether that’s consciously or subconsciously is a separate psychological debate (it doesn’t look like I’m going to take huge damage from it, so I guess I won’t dodge right now).

Another part is that sometimes it feels like 5+ conditions just appear instantly on me, which makes my Signet of Stam trigger finger mighty itchy.

Another part is that with a Hammer/GS build, things like Blind prevalence put me into an irritable state, so when I see bleeds rattling ticks for 100, I’m not necessarily thinking rationally.

Another part, which may be the most important, is that I do not often have a condi-cleansing companion running around with me. When my girlfriend plays her support Guardian, it’s like I’m magically taking less damage. Except it isn’t magic. It’s science. Or I guess it IS magic from a lore perspective, but you get my meaning.

Sum all of those parts, and sure, conditions feel imbalanced. I’ve been trying for days to construct an objective argument for why they feel imbalanced, why I think both conditions and cleanses should be toned down somehow, etc. However, I keep failing. Why do I keep failing?

The answer is so obvious that I legitimately feel bad about saying it out loud: I started playing Necro.

I played a Necro for countless hours in GW1, though I never really did PvP. I love the idea of Necros, I love the flexibility, and I Loved making those pips sing (mmm, Life Transfer). I played a Warrior first because my tastes have changed a bit (love me some Greatswords in all games, I prefer high-aggression, etc.), but I recently decided to give Necro a more concerted go.

Here’s a list of things I’m noticing:

1. The damage abilities I’m using are dodgeable. Enfeebling Blood, Deathly Swarm (for me, transferring bleeding stacks from Blood Is Power), Dark Path. It isn’t a weapon being swung in your face, but there’s no reason those abilities can’t be anticipated/dodged, and that could very well be 5+ stacks of Bleeding you avoid. It’s almost like the same thing as dodging a direct attack. :O!

2. When I try to evaluate the amount of damage abilities are doing with conditions, it’s matching up to the direct damage I typically do with certain abilities on my Warrior. Sure, I am full Zerker on my Warrior and use traits/utilities/mobility as my defense, but how do I justify reducing Condi damage when it’s roughly the same on average, just dealt over time and cleansable when you notice it’s on you?

3. PvP feels intensely easier. I’ve had a few encounters where it felt like I did nothing, and the person just melted into the dirt. I’ve never felt bad for downing someone as a Warrior, but I’ve felt bad a number of times for things that happen to people on account of my Necro. I’m all thumbs on my Necro (or was, a bit better now), but still people rained to the ground.

4. Why is #3 the case? Is it because “omg Necros are imba”? I don’t think so. I think it’s because everything I do as a Warrior, as many Warriors gripe about, screams “I’m about to hit you for damage, hold onto your butts”. A big Charr up in your face swinging a weapon holds your attention. A Human Necro standing back and casually raining a few abilities your way can be easy to miss in the middle of a fight. Even in a 1v1, I think there’s a psychological effect. “He’s way over there, and we’re trading blows, so I’m probably going to be fine”. Except you probably often won’t be.

So what are my conclusions? Unfortunately for my ego, I think it’s a matter of paying more attention. Playing better. Just because something is subtle doesn’t mean it can’t, or shouldn’t, be dodged. Just because you don’t get slammed with damage right away doesn’t mean you played it appropriately if you’re bleeding with 3 stacks.

Just because you notice yourself taking 1000 DPS because of bleeds doesn’t mean conditions are imba. It probably means you’re in a bad situation, and that isn’t the condition’s fault.

I do wish conditions were less binary. I wish it wasn’t just a matter of sweeping all of your Bleeds off, but more of a tug-o-war game like GW1 played with regen/degen. Maybe ANet should try to make damage-stacking condition abilities more visually stimulating so people say “Oh, that’s going to hurt”.

Food for thought: if you’re in a situation where you suddenly have 10 stacks of bleed, what would have happened to you if those bleed abilities were direct damage abilities instead?

Xsorus.2507:

Condition gear in general has toughness because Conditions in general require the person to stay up longer then a heavy burst player.

We’re talking about a game that allows players to be hit for half their life in a single high damage hit even if they have high toughness. My BM Bunker Ranger can stay up far far longer then my Ranger wearing berserker gear and opening to pop people for 10k Mauls for Example….But It takes me a while to kill most players with BM Bunker, its slow….hence why its a Bunker Build.

its the same with Necro’s, If they couldn’t stay up with Toughness and Conditions, they’d just go their power builds and pop you in the face over and over with 5k nukes.

I think the main problem is, So many players don’t want to run anti condition builds, Just like many players didn’t want to kill the Ranger pet, We’re dealing with a generation that honestly is the Call of Duty generation, You didn’t see many former DAOC players whining that Pets were over the top, or that Ranger Pets were scary, because they dealt with things like theurgist in the past, and knew you had to actually clear pets when dealing with a pet user (i will flat out gut your pet if I think you’re a spirit ranger or someone who’s doesn’t have any survivability on them, Necro’s, i’ll kill Flesh Golems right off the bat if I see them up)

Now we have people who don’t wanna deal with Conditions, ….There is a Nasty kitten Necro in the back line throwing conditions, Don’t wanna deal with it…Rather just gut conditions completely…

We can all go back to Thieves spamming Backstab, Warriors spamming 100b, and Mesmer’s spamming Zerker

pets and dots are the epitome of lazy & noob play
they should never be effective in a game that takes pvp seriously

I want to point out that the majority of “condition damage” is less telegraphed and mostly AoE while the majority (Not saying all of it) of the good sources of “power damage” is more telegraphed and more punishable be it single target or AoE. Let alone the fact that Weakness only affects Power damage and not conditions.

Keep it clean.

You need 1 stat to have viable condition dmg.
You need 2->3 stats to have viable power dmg.

It’s all in the stat setup, you need to have high power, crit allot and have high crit dmg to deal viable physical dmg… you need nothing but condition dmg to do viable condtion dmg…
It gives condi specs sooo much more leeway.

Anyways, differences in how specs work is cool, but allowing conditions to commonly and easily be your only source of dmg…
That’s where Anet kittened up.
They should have just made condition dmg, for the vast majority of classes/specs, 1/2 your outgoing dmg, at best, and readjusted jewelry to compensate.

In general when it comes to jewelry…
They should have 5~ stats, a mix between condi and physical dmg. Crit dmg should not exist anymore (to lower the scaling on physical dmg, so high power/crit/critdmg isn’t the only viable way to deal physical dmg, like it is right now). Anet should add more procs for precision (that don’t scale off power/condi), and make healing power a USABLE stat for more than like 3~ classes.
It shouldn’t bump up regen or anything… only the primary heal… but not be a 700~ stat on an amulet, ever, like jump up between 0->500~ as a side stat on an ammy.

I have to admit I vastly prefer Engie, Necro, and Ranger specifically because Rabid/Shaman’s amulet’s provide the most well rounded builds.

Necro and Ranger both have great condition removal so adding toughness provides great defense against the entire field + strong damage through condition damage stat.

Soldier’s Amulet is pretty well rounded but that’s about it for power/crit damage builds and frankly the vitality stat isn’t that great which makes even soldier’s relatively inferior. I suppose Valkyries is decent on any class that has high crit chance (perma fury) + good condition removal and uses power based weapons but no class really meets those requirements. I suppose ele is close but their crit chance is still a little low.

Warriors have bad condition removal (berserker’s stance is cheesy and not ideal) which makes them practically forced into an All-In DPS mindset since surviving vs 3/4 of the field is best done through a kill them before the conditions kill you mindset. No point in stacking toughness or vitality when those things won’t do anything to lower the incoming DPS.

Thiefs have bad condition removal which makes them practically forced into an All-In DPS mindset since surviving vs 3/4 of the field is best done through a kill them before the conditions kill you mindset. No point in stacking toughness or vitality when those things won’t do anything to lower the incoming DPS.

Mesmers have bad condition removal which makes them practically forced into an All-In DPS mindset since surviving vs 3/4 of the field is best done through a kill them before the conditions kill you mindset. No point in stacking toughness or vitality when those things won’t do anything to lower the incoming DPS.

Sure you can give power builds amulets that contain toughness but that won’t effect the condi matchup at all. They would only be gimping their damage with no increased survivability lowering their chances in fights against Engineer, Necro, Ranger.

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

It’s not working out this way in reality. Conditions are bursting people down due to the sheer number a certain profession can place on you in less than a few seconds. Also, the ease of application means that cleansing them is not viable.

A good example of conditions doing what they’re supposed to is the World of Warcraft Shadow Priest (pre-Wrath of the Lich King). You had to lay on a couple of DoT spells and then bide your time. If there was someone nearby who could cleanse your DoTs then you had to get a teammate to assist you, or focus on your meager direct dmg skills.

Conditions should be dangerous if not cleansed, but they shouldn’t demand that you immediately cleanse them or risk death in the first 10 seconds of a fight.

I feel like the conversations are gravitating towards a point where it’s just a cover/mask for “Necros with Terror/Dhuumfire hurt too much”. And I think that is a completely unfair assessment of conditions.

I don’t have enough experience to truly comment on whether or not Terror is too much damage, or whether Stability countering it is enough. The amount of free damage one takes while stunned by my Warrior is often far, far more than what Terror seems to accumulate (I’m talking about damage from Terror alone. A Necro comboing up a bunch of bleeds into a Fear isn’t all Terror damage).

But Dhuumfire, I think people have agreed across several threads, could probably go.

Remember though, any consequence of Dhuumfire shouldn’t be involved in a discussion strictly about conditions. And if you think “No, it isn’t just Necros”, name another class that can do it. If you can’t (I can’t (we can’t)), then arguments about “burst” condition damage aren’t about “burst” condition damage, they’re about a particular build on a particular class. At that point it’s like asking to nerf all direct damage because Backstab hits too hard.

milo.6942:

pets and dots are the epitome of lazy & noob play
they should never be effective in a game that takes pvp seriously

How the hell is dots lazy & noob play?
What, mindlessly charging with tunnel vision on is your idea of some kind of skillful, honorable PvP ideal?

idk I think in necro its way to strong because of there cc and immunity to cc in ds. I am currently playing condi thief its pretty high dmg I don’t even have to use heartseeker i just use agony till low then death blossom or vice versa. but its really not that special in thief i get about the same results as direct dmg

The Boz.2038:

milo.6942:

pets and dots are the epitome of lazy & noob play
they should never be effective in a game that takes pvp seriously

How the hell is dots lazy & noob play?
What, mindlessly charging with tunnel vision on is your idea of some kind of skillful, honorable PvP ideal?

Simply because it takes a few buttons to get a full condition combo off. Keep in mind that after applying a condition combo, you can simply wait or play defensively (some sort of passive play here) until the target burns their condition cleanse and then re-apply it after. Kinda supports the fact that most condition builds are somewhat low-skill floor + high reward right now.

Also I hate to repeat myself but another thing is that it doesn’t help that most conditions are also AoE and not as telegraphed as power damage.

The way I see it, condis simply offer a safer, far more reliable, and far less defendable way to dish out damage for the purpose of controlling the map i.e. killing bunkers, pressuring opponents out of an area.

Let’s remember, the demand for condis stemmed from the uber unkillable bunkers that couldn’t be downed via direct damage without 5 minutes and a coordinated 5-man spike. Uber Protection and Healing Power made condis a must have, and once Quickness was nerfed without any adjustments to physical defenses (protection, retal, etc.) the option to run power became less and less practical. Now we’ve gotten so condition heavy that we’re beginning to outstrip the available condition removal. Clearly the meta was not intended to swing this far in one direction, but the demand was made and reinforced early on by letting bunkers stay as strong as they are, as well as defenses against direct damage.

I think ANet needs to take a long look at melee skills and their cast times, damage coefficients, and hit radius as well as common defenses such as Protection, Retal, available healing to certain classes (Guadians, Ele’s) and reevaluate the “opportunity costs” that go along with each as compared to condi/aoe/ground targeted skills.

I’d also point out that this meta is ideal for Necros. Masters of conditions, massive HP pool, boon corruption, and hardly any stun+burst power builds running around to counter them. Even without Burning this meta is made for Necros to thrive in. As soon as power becomes viable though, that will change immensely. At this point I think ANet needs to stop balancing the items deemed “too strong”, and start looking at what was intended to counter it and why it isn’t viable within the meta do so.

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Yup pretty much this is the problem.

Amir.1570:

Simply because it takes a few buttons to get a full condition combo off. Keep in mind that after applying a condition combo, you can simply wait or play defensively (some sort of passive play here) until the target burns their condition cleanse and then re-apply it after. Kinda supports the fact that most condition builds are somewhat low-skill floor + high reward right now.

It takes a few buttons to get any kind of combo off. If anything, conditions take MORE skill than power, because after you deliver your payload, you need to buy yourself some time. It rewards consistency and skilled play, not random procs and short burst encounters.
Prove me wrong.

Amir.1570:

Also I hate to repeat myself but another thing is that it doesn’t help that most conditions are also AoE and not as telegraphed as power damage.

Please stop saying that. It just isn’t true.
Are there AoE condition skills in the game? Sure. Do they outnumber the single-target condition skills in the game OR in the current meta? No.
And they are telegraphed just fine, you just need to get used to dodging things that aren’t OMG-THERE-IS-A-SWORD-SWINGING-AT-MY-FACE!

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Stop saying this as well, as it just isn’t true.
Want a quick and simple test? Grab two warriors. Give one a valkyrie’s set and a pair of axes, with the proper traits. Give the other two swords and a rabid set, with the proper traits.
Observe their performance in 1v1 fights.

The reason the meta shifted towards conditions is bunkers, not the godlyhood of conditions. Adapt to the build you fear.

The Boz.2038:

Amir.1570:

Simply because it takes a few buttons to get a full condition combo off. Keep in mind that after applying a condition combo, you can simply wait or play defensively (some sort of passive play here) until the target burns their condition cleanse and then re-apply it after. Kinda supports the fact that most condition builds are somewhat low-skill floor + high reward right now.

It takes a few buttons to get any kind of combo off. If anything, conditions take MORE skill than power, because after you deliver your payload, you need to buy yourself some time. It rewards consistency and skilled play, not random procs and short burst encounters.
Prove me wrong.

Amir.1570:

Also I hate to repeat myself but another thing is that it doesn’t help that most conditions are also AoE and not as telegraphed as power damage.

Please stop saying that. It just isn’t true.
Are there AoE condition skills in the game? Sure. Do they outnumber the single-target condition skills in the game OR in the current meta? No.
And they are telegraphed just fine, you just need to get used to dodging things that aren’t OMG-THERE-IS-A-SWORD-SWINGING-AT-MY-FACE!

Conditions take more skill than power damage? I have a hard time believing that to be honest simply because the current meta right now has more conditions than power damage. I also have a hard time deciding whether what you said is credible or not at this point because the next line that I’m probably going to hear is “Maybe because people like challenging and innovative team compositions.”

But if that isn’t your answer, then please tell me why power damage team comps declined and condition damage team comps is becoming more prominent?

Amir.1570:

But if that isn’t your answer, then please tell me why power damage team comps declined and condition damage team comps is becoming more prominent?

Could it be because often metas shift in directions that counter the current meta? Or perhaps because certain changes/builds were sniffed out that turned out to be more viable in a competitive scene to grab wins, and those builds happened to focus on condi pressure?

Have conditions changed at all? Did they modify some coefficients, or add certain amulets recently? If no, then those power builds were created in an environment where conditions were just like they are now. So that means it isn’t the conditions that are necessarily imbalanced, but the balance of condition pressure in certain situations that might be a bit deviant.

In which case, why would they nerf conditions as a whole or rework the entire system?

Amir.1570:

But if that isn’t your answer, then please tell me why power damage team comps declined and condition damage team comps is becoming more prominent?

I’ve said it before, but not in this thread: the rise of condition builds happened because of the guardian and elementalist bunkers that were literally uncrackable in a non-condition build. And the main building blocks of those two builds did not change, if conditions as a whole gets nerfed, we’ll just go back to zerk-vs-bunker gameplay. Not a fun meta.

The Boz.2038:

Amir.1570:

But if that isn’t your answer, then please tell me why power damage team comps declined and condition damage team comps is becoming more prominent?

I’ve said it before, but not in this thread: the rise of condition builds happened because of the guardian and elementalist bunkers that were literally uncrackable in a non-condition build. And the main building blocks of those two builds did not change, if conditions as a whole gets nerfed, we’ll just go back to zerk-vs-bunker gameplay. Not a fun meta.

Even more than before an ele can’t hold a point like a true bunker after the series of nerfs he has received, the guardian has been nerfed also, so I don’t see how a return to 2012 meta can ever be possible….and talking about fun, to face a double engy-necro-spirit ranger-guardian team is not fun either

I think this got to the point where some players want to have their pie and eat it too – to the point where they can’t build a class that can be invincible or 2 shot players without any risk.

As game evolves and patches pour in nerfing / buffing / balancing abilities / skills / traits etc, we will see different classes performing different roles within their parameters.

It’s a MMO. Everything changes at a point. We can’t talk about a rise of condition builds, when in all games in tournament there were 2 maximum condi builds, with 1 or 2 bunkers and a high mobility / evasion class with power dmg.

Engineers are highly mobile and have good single target pressure via conditions and control (pulls, knock backs) and decent defenses.

Necros are immobile, great condition manipulators, point pressure, with limited control (1 aoe fear, 1 single target fear) that apply constant pressure (when left alone) and help their team by cleansing / transfering conditions and applying debuffs to reduce incoming damage (blindness / chill / weakness / cripple).

Did you see what happened every time necro gets targeted? A) they flop over they use spectral armor, enter DS, pop Plague elite, then flop over (while doing this they lose all their condition transfer / cleanse abilities to help the team).
Did you see what happened to tinker teldo when he got stealth zerged? He imploded.

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