Guild Wars 2

It’s actually annoying that so many low-level players still think the meta is about conditions and necromancers. It leads to way too many people solo queueing as necromancer and contributing nothing of value.

Atherakhia.4086:

jportell.2197:

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

Except for now we are seeing “burst” condition damage. DOTS is fine let them occur OVER TIME. But burst and condition damage should not be hand in hand. Right now they are.

Could you expand on this because I’m just not following it. By burst do you mean the ability to drop a ton of conditions all at once on multiple targets? Or do you literally mean burst damage on top of condition damage?

To my knowledge, most classes that use conditions at all (at least to the point to warrant complaint) are using rabid gear which doesn’t have power. In WvW it’s the same way, except there people are using Apothecary gear for the most part. So while I suppose it’s true that a class could hit something with their other skills, they should hit like a wet noodle.

By “burst” I mean the amount of conditions dropped on you will either down you in the next 5s or you clear them with only half your health left. The condition damage right now is dropping people as fast as zerker burst builds used to do. So many condis get dropped at once that sometimes when u clear them u don’t clear the ones you really need gone.

Lopez.7369:

It’s actually annoying that so many low-level players still think the meta is about conditions and necromancers. It leads to way too many people solo queueing as necromancer and contributing nothing of value.

Because several top teams haven’t started using more and more necros doing extremely well right? /sarcasm

No top team runs more than one necromancer because that would debilitate overall mobility.

I don’t know why it’s worth pointing out that most teams run necromancers, considering most teams also run thief, guardian, ranger and engineer. Why don’t those classes get singled out? Why aren’t we paying attention to the fact that none of those other classes are built around doing lots of condition damage? (Some of them do condition damage, but that’s not why they’re in the team.)

The real meta, at least at the highest levels, is balance. Teams typically run bunker, bruiser, condition, burst, and one of the other archetypes depending on the team’s strategy and playstyle. No one is ramming a bunch of condition builds into a team.

But that doesn’t seem to be clear to many low-level players, who are instead solo queueing as necromancers en masse even after the class has been nerfed. My suspicion is they’re behind the times, which means we should be seeing more sword/dagger thieves and spirit rangers at low ratings in a week or so.

Lopez.7369:

No top team runs more than one necromancer because that would debilitate overall mobility.

I don’t know why it’s worth pointing out that most teams run necromancers, considering most teams also run thief, guardian, ranger and engineer. Why don’t those classes get singled out? Why aren’t we paying attention to the fact that none of those other classes are built around doing lots of condition damage? (Some of them do condition damage, but that’s not why they’re in the team.)

The real meta, at least at the highest levels, is balance. Teams typically run bunker, conditions, bruiser, burst, and one of the other archetypes depending on the team’s strategy and playstyle. No one is ramming a bunch of condition builds into a team.

But that doesn’t seem to be clear to many low-level players, who are instead picking up necromancers left and right even after they’ve been nerfed. My suspicion is they’re behind the times, which means we should be seeing more sword/dagger thieves and spirit rangers at low ratings in a week or so.

TP v. Team Ugly. TP had two necromancers no bunker and they nuked team ugly several times. (before pax.) Conditions in general are way out of hand and they are applied way to easily and way to difficult to cleanse even when built around doing nothing but cleansing conditions. Several top teams have also acknowledged this including xeph, helseth, phantaram, supcutie etc. It was even asked in an SOTG about necros and conditions in general. And there are already several teams running spirit rangers. The meta is actually turning into this for the teams that run FOTM builds 1 necro/2 spirit rangers/thief/guard. Guard isn’t even taht much of a necessity anymore. Or we are seeing 2 necros/1 spirit ranger/1 condi engi/1 thief. The only time you see people bringing a mesmer/warrior/ele is teams that are less concerned about winning and more concerned about playing a class they enjoy (don’t read that as build, builds should change as needed) however the current meta is pushing people away from their preferred classes and more toward FOTM meta classes just so they can have a chance at being successful. Do you not see a problem with that?

That example is way outdated. I’m talking about the current metagame.

You actually kind of proved my point that most people seem to be behind the current metagame.

The metagame is always going to favor some builds and classes. That’s the metagame. The goal is to give each class at least one viable build, and that’s actually happened.

Lopez.7369:

That example is way outdated. I’m talking about the current metagame.

You actually kind of proved my point that most people seem to be behind the current metagame.

And in the current meta game (from playing with people in the top 500 and r40-50) the team comp is as stated above.

The problem is not the amulets, the problem is that there is no stat or boon to reduce/mitigate condition damage, the current condition preferance is going to continue until this is adressed, then things will balanced and someones would prefer conditions and other power, in fact, some teams would need to have some guys go conditions and others go power, right now is best for everyone to go full conditions.

One suggestion is to make regen stack intensity. A trait could read “Gain x stacks of regeneration for each condition on you”< not class specific btw.

jportell.2197:

Lopez.7369:

That example is way outdated. I’m talking about the current metagame.

You actually kind of proved my point that most people seem to be behind the current metagame.

And in the current meta game (from playing with people in the top 500 and r40-50) the team comp is as stated above.

I’m not surprised you think that. We’ll see in a couple weeks. I think the upcoming PAX matches will make a lot of people rethink their misconceptions.

jportell.2197:

One suggestion is to make regen stack intensity. A trait could read “Gain x stacks of regeneration for each condition on you”< not class specific btw.

That could be the boon to counter conditions, but the problem is that poison countes regeneration.

We have to think of a stat that reduces condition damage too, vitality could be the candidate, or toughness but i think vitality should be, that will make all of those vit amulets more usefull than right now.

I guarantee you that even then if we are able to see the death breakdown 90% of the deaths top cause will be condition damage.

Fenrir.5493:

jportell.2197:

One suggestion is to make regen stack intensity. A trait could read “Gain x stacks of regeneration for each condition on you”< not class specific btw.

That could be the boon to counter conditions, but the problem is that poison countes regeneration.

We have to think of a stat that reduces condition damage too, vitality could be the candidate, or toughness but i think vitality should be, that will make all of those vit amulets more usefull than right now.

Except they would have to completely redo how vit does against condi damage because right now vit is in no way a decent counter to condition damage. A change to vit maybe but it would be nicer to have the options in traits for condi removal or a mitigation such as less damage from conditions per unique condition. Guards and eles are already doing kinda okay in condition removal area. Other classes (warriors/mesmers/engis specifically) have the worst condi removal compared to the other 5.

Warriors are actually becoming the big counter to necromancers. Their big inhibition is whether they can live through other classes and deal damage at the same time.

Lopez.7369:

Warriors are actually becoming the big counter to necromancers. Their big inhibition is whether they can live through other classes and deal damage at the same time.

This I know about warriors. However they are the only real counter to condition builds.

Lopez.7369:

Warriors are actually becoming the big counter to necromancers. Their big inhibition is whether they can live through other classes and deal damage at the same time.

Can just outkite warriors as a necro, and they have too little CC to stand a chance.

Basically you get a fear off your runes, fear off your staff, fear of your wall (sometimes multiple times) and a fear off your death shroud. By that time any warrior will be long dead.

I’m not talking just about one-on-one fights, and what you described is the worst warrior play possible.

Actually, everyone does what you described at the highest ratings.

I’ll skip a few things and bring out a thought. Lets take the Rabid Amulet as an example again:

Would passive methods of dps in general tone down if lets say Rabid Amulet’s stats went from:

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
798 + 125 Condition Damage

into

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
569 + 75 Condition Damage
15% + 5% Critical Damage

What would happen theoretically if part of the condition damage (Around 224 + 45 Condition Damage into 15% + 5% Critical Damage) became critical damage instead in an attempt to tone down passivity in sPvP? Would it kill certain builds or would this type of change be a step to the right direction in making certain condition builds more active IF it were to happen? Keep it clean.

shimmerless.4560:

i’ve watched people play necro at the “highest ratings” and no it’s not what they do. it goes like this:

a) lay down every staff skill
b) enter DS hit #5 (? can’t remember) and #3, maybe the life drain one if you’re under pressure
c) hit every scepter skill
d) fin

I don’t think you quite understand what’s happening in those situations. A necromancer obviously doesn’t want to sit on his cooldowns and not use them for an extended period of time. That’s dumb as any class. But there’s definitely a few things that smart necromancers time after seeing defensive cooldowns go off. Otherwise, they’re contributing much less to team and one-on-one fights.

shimmerless.4560:

i’ve watched people play necro at the “highest ratings” and no it’s not what they do. it goes like this:

a) lay down every staff skill
b) enter DS hit #5 (? can’t remember) and #3, maybe the life drain one if you’re under pressure
c) hit every scepter skill
d) fin

Lets analyse your example:
To Staff skills be effective, necro needs Greater Marks, otherwise they can be blocked.
[20 trait points]
Stuff skills can be also evaded (also there is no point to spamm all marks at once, since only 2 of them have condis xD)
To enter DS necro need at least 10% LF.
Necro has LF from marks [20 trait points] or you let him to hit you with something when necro is pretty easy to kill.
If necro using ds#5 he is in mid of the fight, othewise its no use and skill can’t be precasted, so necro first has to come in mid fight and afterwards cast ds#5, what can be also be interupted!
So you have 2 options, or kill necro what will take 1-2 bursts , run take distance from him or let him immobolize you.
Hitting all scepter skills is also pointless, since 1 and 3 are single target and 2 is has a long casting time, what means it can be easily be dodged.
and yes, in this situation it is ‘fin’…‘fin’ for necro, because he will be dead!

All I can say, you have no idea what is necro and how it works.

shimmerless.4560:

fear counts as a condi (in fact anet can’t decide what it is, since it damages, traits and benefits from +duration runes like a condi and requires stun breaks like a stun).

also all staff marks can potentially trigger on-crit condis (bleed, burn). i would argue this is more important than the mark effects themselves

yes scepter #2 has a cast time it also has a range of 900 it’s not that hard to cast in the middle of a point.

never really had a problem getting into death shroud though i will earnestly admit i just don’t know a whole lot about the class

I was following you scenario. If team lets necro get in mid ofthe fight and escape from it – there is no way to help them.
Using staff 4-5 just to get burning or bleeding is the biggest waste. Do you even know what those skills are doing ?!

Amir.1570:

I’ll skip a few things and bring out a thought. Lets take the Rabid Amulet as an example again:

Would passive methods of dps in general tone down if lets say Rabid Amulet’s stats went from:

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
798 + 125 Condition Damage

into

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
569 + 75 Condition Damage
15% + 5% Critical Damage

What would happen theoretically if part of the condition damage (Around 224 + 45 Condition Damage into 15% + 5% Critical Damage) became critical damage instead in an attempt to tone down passivity in sPvP? Would it kill certain builds or would this type of change be a step to the right direction in making certain condition builds more active IF it were to happen? Keep it clean.

Sorry if I seem persistent but I need a few people’s insight on possible changes. I’m not saying that these changes should happen but I think its about time that the community brain storms on things that can be tweaked without hurting PvE balancing.

Amir.1570:

Amir.1570:

I’ll skip a few things and bring out a thought. Lets take the Rabid Amulet as an example again:

Would passive methods of dps in general tone down if lets say Rabid Amulet’s stats went from:

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
798 + 125 Condition Damage

into

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
569 + 75 Condition Damage
15% + 5% Critical Damage

What would happen theoretically if part of the condition damage (Around 224 + 45 Condition Damage into 15% + 5% Critical Damage) became critical damage instead in an attempt to tone down passivity in sPvP? Would it kill certain builds or would this type of change be a step to the right direction in making certain condition builds more active IF it were to happen? Keep it clean.

Sorry if I seem persistent but I need a few people’s insight on possible changes. I’m not saying that these changes should happen but I think its about time that the community brain storms on things that can be tweaked without hurting PvE balancing.

Not sure about Engi/Ranger, but this amulet will make necro a lot stronger.

emon.1863:

Amir.1570:

Amir.1570:

I’ll skip a few things and bring out a thought. Lets take the Rabid Amulet as an example again:

Would passive methods of dps in general tone down if lets say Rabid Amulet’s stats went from:

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
798 + 125 Condition Damage

into

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
569 + 75 Condition Damage
15% + 5% Critical Damage

What would happen theoretically if part of the condition damage (Around 224 + 45 Condition Damage into 15% + 5% Critical Damage) became critical damage instead in an attempt to tone down passivity in sPvP? Would it kill certain builds or would this type of change be a step to the right direction in making certain condition builds more active IF it were to happen? Keep it clean.

Sorry if I seem persistent but I need a few people’s insight on possible changes. I’m not saying that these changes should happen but I think its about time that the community brain storms on things that can be tweaked without hurting PvE balancing.

Not sure about Engi/Ranger, but this amulet will make necro a lot stronger.

Could you please elaborate on how re-working rabids into (as an example) 20% critical damage less 259 condition damage makes specs such as condition necromancers stronger?

Amir.1570:

emon.1863:

Amir.1570:

Amir.1570:

I’ll skip a few things and bring out a thought. Lets take the Rabid Amulet as an example again:

Would passive methods of dps in general tone down if lets say Rabid Amulet’s stats went from:

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
798 + 125 Condition Damage

into

569 + 75 Precision
569 + 75 Toughness
569 + 75 Condition Damage
15% + 5% Critical Damage

What would happen theoretically if part of the condition damage (Around 224 + 45 Condition Damage into 15% + 5% Critical Damage) became critical damage instead in an attempt to tone down passivity in sPvP? Would it kill certain builds or would this type of change be a step to the right direction in making certain condition builds more active IF it were to happen? Keep it clean.

Sorry if I seem persistent but I need a few people’s insight on possible changes. I’m not saying that these changes should happen but I think its about time that the community brain storms on things that can be tweaked without hurting PvE balancing.

Not sure about Engi/Ranger, but this amulet will make necro a lot stronger.

Could you please elaborate on how re-working rabids into (as an example) 20% critical damage less 259 condition damage makes specs such as condition necromancers stronger?

Simple, necro has 45% crit chance + 20% crit dmg, it will also deal over 1-2k pure dmg, without losing big amount of condi dmg. So this will make necro harder to kill. I run terror mancer mostly with rampage amulet, and i never suffer’d from low condi dmg.

The whole condi situation is mostly because of burning. Pre necro buff, engi and ranger did the best condi dmg (they still do it good), mostly because they can spam burning. After patch when all QQ started and necro got burning, was because necro has condi burst by terror. Thats make sense because they could burst ppl in 1-3 secs. Now when necro got burning AND TERROR nerfed i dont think condis are sucha big problem.

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them.

This is an oft repeated and completely false myth. Conditions don’t have a single stat feeding into them. They have 3:

Malice: this provides their damage, and is the stat most people refer to.

Expertise: This little factored stat accounts for condition duration. Expertise by itself is capable of doubling both the overall damage done of any condition, as well as the damage per second via how many conditions you can stack at one time. Because of this, Expertise is fundamental to any good condition build.

Precision: Now, this only indirectly affects conditions, but nonetheless it is an important stat. Many of the ways classes inflict conditions are with procs. The dreaded dhuumfire, incendiary powder, barbed precision, sharper images, precise strikes, Sigil of Earth, all of these need precision in order to function.

Because of this, you can think of the rabid amulet as the “pure condition damage” amulet. It provides the precision needed for procs, the malice needed for damage, and toughness to survive. The only stat it is missing is expertise, which isn’t given by any amulets.

By comparison, some amulets that are noticeably missing that would be the equivalent of rabid would be

Power/Precision/Toughness
Precision/Crit Damage/Vitality
Crit Damage / Precision /Toughness

And so on, listing primary stat first and secondary stats later. Now, Valkyire Amulet is closest to this by having power and crit damage, however this comes with the caveat that crit damage is wholly dependent on a stat that is missing, which is precision. Crit damage is the only stat like this, though.

You do realize that less 259 condition damage is around 12 damage off of bleeds right? That is hefty amount if you ask me. If you do the math I think your damage should be about the same except in order to have as much reliable DPS as before, you have to be more active at attacking instead of playing defensively after you get your combo off.

At least that’s what I believe if amulets such as rabid’s have some of their condition damage converted into something more active such as critical damage.

Amir.1570:

Sorry if I seem persistent but I need a few people’s insight on possible changes. I’m not saying that these changes should happen but I think its about time that the community brain storms on things that can be tweaked without hurting PvE balancing.

If you seriously are aiming for a fix to the amulet chaos…
Drop crit damage.
From everything.

To have viable physical damage at the moment a spec needs to have high power, crit allot and have high crit dmg… those three attributes scale so well together that they turn things like, just high power specs… into ‘barely notable physical dmg’. Messing up that power/crit/crit-dmg scaling by turning crits into like only bonus 30~% dmg would balance out PvP wonderfully…

At the moment conquest promotes burst builds… the best kind of roamer is one that can kill an enemy in a seconds time flat. That with the only way to deal viable dmg to go glass cannon… that’s a complete push for glass deeps, having stats at least not give out dmg stats that scale insanely well together, would be a good place to start.
It’d let power/crit stacking lead to some good dmg, but nothing insane enough to be the only viable source of physical dmg short of cheese (like retal).

I’d also add in more ‘on crit’ effects to the game… ones that don’t scale off of power or condition dmg. It’d let precision alone give decent dmg with some odd buffs/debuffs from the critting, power alone gives better damage, while power and crit gives strong damage (but not insane).

For specific amulets, I’d turn berserkers into ‘+600~ power, +500~ crit, +400~ healing, +500~ condi dmg’ It’d be glass cannon well rounded dmg, with the only survivability in self healing well.

I’d also vi more for healing power to not effect regen or any other healing skill, instead just the main heal skill, like it reduces the main heal skills CD and/or notably increases its healing.

Bring condi removal utilities. Except people don’t want to bring them because they want team fight/mobility utilities.

It’s the same case with the mesmer and guardian.

You could bring arcane thievery and null field and then blink, but people want illusion of life and portal. You could bring purging flames and contemplation of purity together, but they want sanctuary and stand your ground and whatever other shout or judge’s intervention they want to bring for team fights.

Thieves want their signet and full into critical strikes without wanting to invest into shadow arts for condi removal at less damage done.

It’s all a problem of what people feel are necessary utilities. You just need to nerf the utilities that feel mandatory.

garethh.3518:

Amir.1570:

Sorry if I seem persistent but I need a few people’s insight on possible changes. I’m not saying that these changes should happen but I think its about time that the community brain storms on things that can be tweaked without hurting PvE balancing.

If you seriously are aiming for a fix to the amulet chaos…
Drop crit damage.
From everything.

To have viable physical damage at the moment a spec needs to have high power, crit allot and have high crit dmg… messing up that scaling by turning crits into like only bonus 30~% dmg would balance out PvP wonderfully…

At the moment conquest promotes burst builds… the best kind of roamer is one that can kill an enemy in a seconds time flat. That with the only way to deal viable dmg to go glass cannon… that’s a complete push for glass deeps, having amulets at least not easily give out insanely high scaling dmg would be a good fix.
It’d let power/crit stacking lead to some good dmg, but nothing insane enough to be the only viable source.

I’d also add in more ‘on crit’ effects to the game… ones that don’t scale off of power or condition dmg. It’d let precision alone give decent dmg with some odd buffs/debuffs from the critting, power alone gives better damage, while power and crit gives strong damage (but not insane).

For specific amulets, I’d turn berserkers into ‘+600~ power, +500~ crit, +400~ healing, +500~ condi dmg’ It’d be glass cannon well rounded dmg, with the only survivability in self healing well.

I’d also vi more for healing power to not effect regen or any other healing skill, instead just the main heal skill, like it reduces the main heal skills CD and/or notably increases its healing.

You’re kinda re-working the whole game with those suggestion. Lets try to find “realistic” fixes though.

Amir.1570:

You’re kinda re-working the whole game with those suggestion. Lets try to find “realistic” fixes though.

And your suggestion about moving condi to crit dmg would just offhandedly nerf condi specs that use rabid amulet… nothing more, nothing less… The amulet probably won’t even improve an HgH engi build (the only thing that can make good use of the precision/crit dmg since they stack up tons of might) since it doesn’t give literally any power or even any healing.

jportell.2197:

Page bug. 15 char

When that happens, go to the address bar and change:
“forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/pvp/Thoughts-about-Condition-Damage-in-sPvP/page/2” to 1

Or whatever page you were on, it will take you there correctly.
If you can’t see the bold, its the page number, in this case 2. Change that to 1. The forum puts you on page 2 but there are no posts there yet.

Fenrir.5493:

The problem is not the amulets, the problem is that there is no stat or boon to reduce/mitigate condition damage,

This, again, is an often repeated myth that isn’t true. Conditions have arguably the best mitigation possible through cleanses. Let m give you an example:

On my HGH engineer I can cause a 10 second burn at 1500 malice, easily, doing around 700 damage per tick. This… is of no consolation against elementalists, thieves, or guardians. These classes can cleanse off my burn before the second tick, mitigating 90% of the damage the condition does. So my 7000 damage skill becomes reduce by 6,300 damage from cleansing.

Aside from the fact that yes, my conditions can and do miss often, they can be blocked and blinded and dodged, conditions have an incredibly potent form of mitigation, both from passive cleansing and active cleansing.

I might as well take this moment to talk about another thing: telegraphs. Now, in all of my classes, the least telegraphed weapon in my arsenal is the Engineer’s rifle, which is a power weapon.

There is a big confusion here. People are mistaking “conditions” for ranged. The two tend to go together, since the majority of condition weapons are ranged weapons. However, there are many exceptions to this rule. Take, for example, the thief Shortbow. The thief shortbow doesn’t have a telegraph for any of its moves, with them all having the same animation of “thief pulls up bow an shoots it”. The closest thing to a telegraph comes from the cluster bomb, which flies in a tall, slow arc when fired at distances, but is nearly instantaneous at close range.

Compare this to the Guardian Scepter, the Mesmer Greatsword, the Ranger Longbow, the Elementalist staff. Some of the skills have delayed effects (looking at you, elementalist), but usually you find out if you are being hit by Smite or Mind Stab when you end up getting slapped around or you get a spectral sword where the sun don’t shine.

The advantage that range weapons provide is that, while they have lower damage, they provide reliable damage and they provide safety in positioning. Should your opponent do something, you can react. In the game, I’ve always found that the strongest thieves I’ve fought against didn’t try to kill me instantly with backstab, but instead used the evasion of the shortbow to whittle me down. Because of this, I’m not sure if the culprit is necessarily conditions.

It does help that conditions were anti-meta when they became popular. Having been fed up with fighting bunkers under permanent protection that block every move you made, the players adapted by changing to steady damage that bypassed protection. This meta can easily shift into one were condition cleansing is key, since it neutralizes both soft controls and damage, letting players get up close and pound away with their melee weapons. Even with the new buffs, one of the scariest things to deal with as a necro is a guardian who just chases you around with the greatsword, shrugging off every condition like it is childs play.

jportell.2197:

Lopez.7369:

That example is way outdated. I’m talking about the current metagame.

You actually kind of proved my point that most people seem to be behind the current metagame.

And in the current meta game (from playing with people in the top 500 and r40-50) the team comp is as stated above.

No it isn’t.
Gosh, that was hard.

Wish I had taken screen shots of the 2 necro 1 engi 1 spirit ranger 1 guard team we faced -_- but oh well. You people won’t ever believe condi damage is OP.

I once faced a team with fire air elementalists. Clearly, that is a meta, and is OP.

The Boz.2038:

I once faced a team with fire air elementalists. Clearly, that is a meta, and is OP.

You faced ONE team. tonight my team read that as an entire premade. Faced several other PREMADE teams that had at least 2 necro mancers on their team. Worse than that we have faced a couple of teams that had three necros a guard and an s/d thief. Why can’t you see that stacking professions should be a liability but with AOE condi spam professions it is the opposite it is usually guaranteeing a win through the sheer amount of AOE condi pressure that is put out. This is especially true for necros/spirit rangers (AOE BUFFS TO GUARANTEE BURNING yeah that isn’t OP) and certain engi builds.

emon.1863:

Exedore.6320:

The heavy condition damage amulets aren’t a problem; the professions are. With the latest change to necromancer Dhuumfire, the condition damage is strong, but it’s arguable whether it’s too much.

Balancing condition damage options for professions is difficult. You have to find a balance where they can put on pressure through conditions in the face of condition removal, but not make everyone fall over dead shortly after condition removal has been expended. Part of this is in the conditions applied. Burning and Fear (with Terror) do the most damage per second. Bleeding does the least per stack and because it goes up in intensity, is often the first condition to be cleared. But the rate at which bleeding stacks can be adjusted in balancing. Then consider which conditions you apply to a single target vs. an area.

A good case study would be why grenade engineer was strong before the June 25th patch, but didn’t break the meta-game whereas necromancer after the patch did.

Well duuhuumfire and terror is nerfed.
You cant compare HgH to Terrormancer, just because engis have more armor, more mobility, more cc and more suravobility. Necro don’t. So it is the easiest target in the game (in teamfights)

Actually HGH engis have more armor less condi clear no stun breaks (elixir R is taken over elixir S 9/10 times) and no peels. They also had no access to hard CC (you know fear) or a bonus to a certain condition (fear again) if another target has a condition on them. This is why HGH engis while OP for the damage they do didn’t shift the meta entirely. Necros however have 2 fears that deal insane amounts of damage with terror better AOE pressure through conditions and marks/fear and scepter attacks are way less telegraphed than slow moving grenades that can be sidestepped.

What exactly was your team doing during that pressure?

The Boz.2038:

What exactly was your team doing during that pressure?

Sent one to their far point all that happened is one necro peeled and wrecked him too since noone (everyone but necros seem to agree) can keep up with the condi pressure output fotm condi necros do. Any time we tried pushing another point we got destroyed by the necros because even our guard and ele combined couldn’t do group cleanses for those team fights. (and that is on points that we held. we don’t sit and do an outmanned fight if we don’t own the point that is just silly.)

Edit: and no matter what you say you aren’t convincing anyone here or elsewhere that necros condition application isn’t OP esp. when the best anti-condi classes can’t keep up with it.

If you don’t have the tools to keep up with the condi pressure (vitality, cleanse, dodge, etc.), you’re supposed to kill them before they kill you. If you’re unable to do either, and are CONSISTENTLY beaten by conditions, something is seriously wrong with your team or character build.

The Boz.2038:

If you don’t have the tools to keep up with the condi pressure (vitality, cleanse, dodge, etc.), you’re supposed to kill them before they kill you. If you’re unable to do either, and are CONSISTENTLY beaten by conditions, something is seriously wrong with your team or character build.

Read that as Get more necros run stupidly condi spam builds and hope you condi nuke them before they condi nuke you. I run a build that has 3500 armor good condi cleanse in the heal skill and one in a utility skill. My problem is when someones condition damage is so high that applying 3 conditions at once drops me to half health. How is this even remotely okay especially if it is supposed to be “DOT”. Going from full to half instantly through condis is not Damage over time. It is burst condition damage. And that is not okay.

jportell.2197:

Edit: and no matter what you say you aren’t convincing anyone here or elsewhere that necros condition application isn’t OP esp. when the best anti-condi classes can’t keep up with it.

What an excellent way to participate in a discussion!

jportell.2197:

Read that as Get more necros run stupidly condi spam builds and hope you condi nuke them before they condi nuke you. I run a build that has 3500 armor good condi cleanse in the heal skill and one in a utility skill. My problem is when someones condition damage is so high that applying 3 conditions at once drops me to half health. How is this even remotely okay especially if it is supposed to be “DOT”. Going from full to half instantly through condis is not Damage over time. It is burst condition damage. And that is not okay.

Unless you go from 0 to burning, poison, and twenty five stacks of bleeding in the span of one second, it is impossible to lose half your health bar (assuming you’re not a full zerk ele or thief) in 3 seconds to conditions.

@jportell: This thread isn’t about Necros, it’s about conditions. You claim conditions are OP, but what you’re actually saying is Necros are OP. You can’t even join an argument about conditions when you are so focused on one specific class that you use it as the basis for your argument about a fundamental mechanic.

The only way you could have possibly been dropped to half health “instantly” through conditions is Dhuumfire+Terror. Otherwise, you would have needed 60 stacks of bleeding to lose 6000 health in 1 second, given 100 DPS per bleed stack. Or 50 stacks of bleeding and burning, given 1000 DPS for burning. I don’t know what the approximate DPS of poison is, but guessing 500 DPS, you’d need 45 stacks of bleeding, poison, and burning. If Terror is roughly 900 DPS (it’s less, IIRC), replace it with poison, and you need 41 stacks of bleeding, burning, and fear.

You might have gotten 6 stacks of bleeding in one perceived second (though most things that bleed you seem to take at least 3/4ths of a second to cast), but the rest of that is a combination of condi pressure from one class that is most likely being evaluated as we speak. Odds are, after PAX, something will happen. It might be a further Terror nerf, it might be Dhuumfire rework. I’m just getting my Necro leveled, and I kind of hope it’s both.

In the example above, 6 bleeds + burning + fear is 600 + 1000 + 900 or 2500 DPS. See how 1000 of that is burning? Feel free to go campaign against Dhuumfire, and join your voice to that choir of people saying it is too much for a necro to have the burning condition, it doesn’t really fit with the class, and it doesn’t really fit with the power traitline either (kind of fits with condi duration in the trait line, but it’s still a bummer).

Either way, this is about condis. Not your vendetta about Necros.

The Boz.2038:

Unless you go from 0 to burning, poison, and twenty five stacks of bleeding in the span of one second, it is impossible to lose half your health bar (assuming you’re not a full zerk ele or thief) in 3 seconds to conditions.

In all technicality, in sPvP a zerk ele or thief has more HP than, say, a Rabid one or a Shaman one because Zerk amulet actually has some Vitality on it.

My ideal fix? Terror and Dhuumfire exchange places, Terror stat becomes Power instead of Condition Damage, Dhuumfire becomes 3s torment on crit, 1s ICD. This fixes EVERYTHING, and buffs the power necro that BADLY needs help.

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

Edit: and no matter what you say you aren’t convincing anyone here or elsewhere that necros condition application isn’t OP esp. when the best anti-condi classes can’t keep up with it.

What an excellent way to participate in a discussion!

jportell.2197:

Read that as Get more necros run stupidly condi spam builds and hope you condi nuke them before they condi nuke you. I run a build that has 3500 armor good condi cleanse in the heal skill and one in a utility skill. My problem is when someones condition damage is so high that applying 3 conditions at once drops me to half health. How is this even remotely okay especially if it is supposed to be “DOT”. Going from full to half instantly through condis is not Damage over time. It is burst condition damage. And that is not okay.

Unless you go from 0 to burning, poison, and twenty five stacks of bleeding in the span of one second, it is impossible to lose half your health bar (assuming you’re not a full zerk ele or thief) in 3 seconds to conditions.

Shaman’s amulet engineer with 30 pts. into alchemy and it went from 0 to burning poison and 15 stacks of bleeding. Don’t tell me it’s impossible to lose half your health in three seconds considering the stats feeding condition damage is just one. A zerker build has to spec heavily into 3 different stats in order to get results. A condi build has to spec into one to get similar results sacrificing very little survivability.

A bunker builds has to go into two stats to get results, toughness and healing which is great for mitigating direct damage. There are no full defensive amulets so a bunker usually has to give up vitality to get healing which in turn makes them more susceptible to condi damage or they can get soldiers ammy but then their healing is going to be garbage and even if they have the vit to last a little bit longer against a condition build they won’t be able to heal through it. The ability to give up one defensive stat in order to maximize one offensive stat while any other build has to give up all defensive stats to maximize their direct damage is imbalanced. The lack of an innate defense against conditions while there is so many passive ways to grant conditions through traits and auto attacks is imbalanced (necro AA does 2 on scepter no other class has two conditions built into their AA) necros also get two on the other skills in a weapon slot. The fact that the class most guilty of spamming conditions is also the best at mitigating them is IMBALANCED. Two classes get full condi clear in their heal skill eles and necros.
One class has condition transfers in two weaponsets (i understand putrid mark is bugged but it still removes the conditions from the necro.) One class can send all conditions they have on themselves to an enemy (remember when mesmers could do that.)

One reason HGH engis didn’t completely shift the meta is because they excelled in one thing high AOE condition damage. Their condition mitigation was not that great and with the introduction of larceonous strike they had a natural counter. Necros have one counter right now and that is stun lock warriors and even then a necro can out kite and cripple and chill the warrior to uselessness before the warrior can land their extremely telegraphed earth shaker.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@jportell: This thread isn’t about Necros, it’s about conditions. You claim conditions are OP, but what you’re actually saying is Necros are OP. You can’t even join an argument about conditions when you are so focused on one specific class that you use it as the basis for your argument about a fundamental mechanic.

The only way you could have possibly been dropped to half health “instantly” through conditions is Dhuumfire+Terror. Otherwise, you would have needed 60 stacks of bleeding to lose 6000 health in 1 second, given 100 DPS per bleed stack. Or 50 stacks of bleeding and burning, given 1000 DPS for burning. I don’t know what the approximate DPS of poison is, but guessing 500 DPS, you’d need 45 stacks of bleeding, poison, and burning. If Terror is roughly 900 DPS (it’s less, IIRC), replace it with poison, and you need 41 stacks of bleeding, burning, and fear.

You might have gotten 6 stacks of bleeding in one perceived second (though most things that bleed you seem to take at least 3/4ths of a second to cast), but the rest of that is a combination of condi pressure from one class that is most likely being evaluated as we speak. Odds are, after PAX, something will happen. It might be a further Terror nerf, it might be Dhuumfire rework. I’m just getting my Necro leveled, and I kind of hope it’s both.

In the example above, 6 bleeds + burning + fear is 600 + 1000 + 900 or 2500 DPS. See how 1000 of that is burning? Feel free to go campaign against Dhuumfire, and join your voice to that choir of people saying it is too much for a necro to have the burning condition, it doesn’t really fit with the class, and it doesn’t really fit with the power traitline either (kind of fits with condi duration in the trait line, but it’s still a bummer).

Either way, this is about condis. Not your vendetta about Necros.

My gripe is with conditions make no mistake. But only one class that is excelling in conditions is also the best at dealing with conditions themselves. My propose fixes (this would deal with HGH engis as well)

1. Terror Remove this trait completely a CC should not also do an insane amount of damage (7k from fear when fighting a single necro) I don’t care what it’s replaced with or even if it is replaced at all any other class that gets a damage bonus from a skill (mug) or an interrupt (mesmers) is an extremely poor damage bonus and not the top skill in killing of the target.
2. Bring might stacking runes in line with the defensive (protecion/boon duration runes) making it so that HGH engis for the ones that are left aren’t just running around the map with a constant 25 might stacks.
3. Fix the bug so that when spirit rangers stack the bonuses do not also stack. Currently there is a bug where if 2 spirit rangers are on a team and one person uses vigorous spirits and the other does not the damage bonus from frost spirit goes from 10% to 20% because they spirits are buffing seperately.
4. Introduce a trait for the classes that are extremely lacking in condi mitigation (engis/warriors/mesmers/thieves to an extent). This trait should be something along the lines of taking less condition damage per each unique condition. Right now there is no debuff that hurts condition damage like weakness or anything. A condi necro can have perma weakness on them and still do insane amounts of damage through conditions.

Conditions are imbalanced, the amount of application vs. removal/mitigation of conditions is imbalanced. The fact that only one stat feeds conditions making it easy to be tanky and do ridiculous amounts of damage is imbalanced. One class being the best at applying conditions and having the best removal of conditions is IMBALANCED. Up necros survivability to that of a guardian for all I care but the ease of dishing out AOE conditions vs. the difficulty people are having with cleansing/mitigating them is extremely imbalanced.