Guild Wars 2

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them.

This is an oft repeated and completely false myth. Conditions don’t have a single stat feeding into them. They have 3:

Malice: this provides their damage, and is the stat most people refer to.

Expertise: This little factored stat accounts for condition duration. Expertise by itself is capable of doubling both the overall damage done of any condition, as well as the damage per second via how many conditions you can stack at one time. Because of this, Expertise is fundamental to any good condition build.

Precision: Now, this only indirectly affects conditions, but nonetheless it is an important stat. Many of the ways classes inflict conditions are with procs. The dreaded dhuumfire, incendiary powder, barbed precision, sharper images, precise strikes, Sigil of Earth, all of these need precision in order to function.

Because of this, you can think of the rabid amulet as the “pure condition damage” amulet. It provides the precision needed for procs, the malice needed for damage, and toughness to survive. The only stat it is missing is expertise, which isn’t given by any amulets.

By comparison, some amulets that are noticeably missing that would be the equivalent of rabid would be

Power/Precision/Toughness
Precision/Crit Damage/Vitality
Crit Damage / Precision /Toughness

And so on, listing primary stat first and secondary stats later. Now, Valkyire Amulet is closest to this by having power and crit damage, however this comes with the caveat that crit damage is wholly dependent on a stat that is missing, which is precision. Crit damage is the only stat like this, though.

Expertise isn’t a real stat. People aren’t going 30 points in spite for condition duration. They’re going 30pts in spite for Dhuum and the fact that they get condition duration is a bonus. Before Dhuum they would run 0/30/20/0/20 or 0/30/10/10/20 etc etc. So while this stat can be gotten via trait expenditure or select few sigils/runes, it’s not something gone after specifically to have it.

The same with Precision for the most part. While it’s nice to have for the on crit application of bleeds and dhuumfire, the fact that 30pts in curses gives crit chance is inconsequential. While not available in PvP, most rangers in WvW actually run Apothecary gear which grants 0 crit and 0 power and they have a lot of on-crit application as well.

So while there are other stats that have some loose connection to condition duration, the fact that they are taken is more utility oriented and not damage related and not really impacting the issues being discussed in this thread all that much. I mean afterall, if you’re going to factor in expertise for conditions, you may aswell factor it in for power too as people want it for daze/snare duration and the like as well.

Now that all being said, I don’t really find conditions to be the problem. It really is limited to burn and not Neco specific either.

Atherakhia.4086:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them.

This is an oft repeated and completely false myth. Conditions don’t have a single stat feeding into them. They have 3:

Malice: this provides their damage, and is the stat most people refer to.

Expertise: This little factored stat accounts for condition duration. Expertise by itself is capable of doubling both the overall damage done of any condition, as well as the damage per second via how many conditions you can stack at one time. Because of this, Expertise is fundamental to any good condition build.

Precision: Now, this only indirectly affects conditions, but nonetheless it is an important stat. Many of the ways classes inflict conditions are with procs. The dreaded dhuumfire, incendiary powder, barbed precision, sharper images, precise strikes, Sigil of Earth, all of these need precision in order to function.

Because of this, you can think of the rabid amulet as the “pure condition damage” amulet. It provides the precision needed for procs, the malice needed for damage, and toughness to survive. The only stat it is missing is expertise, which isn’t given by any amulets.

By comparison, some amulets that are noticeably missing that would be the equivalent of rabid would be

Power/Precision/Toughness
Precision/Crit Damage/Vitality
Crit Damage / Precision /Toughness

And so on, listing primary stat first and secondary stats later. Now, Valkyire Amulet is closest to this by having power and crit damage, however this comes with the caveat that crit damage is wholly dependent on a stat that is missing, which is precision. Crit damage is the only stat like this, though.

Expertise isn’t a real stat. People aren’t going 30 points in spite for condition duration. They’re going 30pts in spite for Dhuum and the fact that they get condition duration is a bonus. Before Dhuum they would run 0/30/20/0/20 or 0/30/10/10/20 etc etc. So while this stat can be gotten via trait expenditure or select few sigils/runes, it’s not something gone after specifically to have it.

The same with Precision for the most part. While it’s nice to have for the on crit application of bleeds and dhuumfire, the fact that 30pts in curses gives crit chance is inconsequential. While not available in PvP, most rangers in WvW actually run Apothecary gear which grants 0 crit and 0 power and they have a lot of on-crit application as well.

So while there are other stats that have some loose connection to condition duration, the fact that they are taken is more utility oriented and not damage related and not really impacting the issues being discussed in this thread all that much. I mean afterall, if you’re going to factor in expertise for conditions, you may aswell factor it in for power too as people want it for daze/snare duration and the like as well.

Now that all being said, I don’t really find conditions to be the problem. It really is limited to burn and not Neco specific either.

Apothecary rangers don’t take on crit traits. With full apothecary gear in WvW you are boasting less than 15% crit chance. On crit traits/sigils are a waste on that gearset.

So Settler/Apothecary geared rangers take geomancy instead.

To whoever that said condi spikes don’t exist, you are playing a different game.

It does exist, and at large.

Good condition removal oddly makes conditioners weak…

Amaterasu.6280:

To whoever that said condi spikes don’t exist, you are playing a different game.

It does exist, and at large.

It only exists in the terror+dhuumfire combination, and that is far from the 100% HP to 0 in 1.5s that you described and then deleted.
Realistically, ~2.5-3k DPS for 3 seconds is the most you can expect, and that is if your target doesn’t have a stun break or a condi clear.
Is that a lot? Yes. Everyone agrees about that. But conditions, as a whole, are neither OP, nor do they burst. Stop telling lies, I beg you.

The Boz.2038:

Amaterasu.6280:

To whoever that said condi spikes don’t exist, you are playing a different game.

It does exist, and at large.

It only exists in the terror+dhuumfire combination, and that is far from the 100% HP to 0 in 1.5s that you described and then deleted.
Realistically, ~2.5-3k DPS for 3 seconds is the most you can expect, and that is if your target doesn’t have a stun break or a condi clear.
Is that a lot? Yes. Everyone agrees about that. But conditions, as a whole, are neither OP, nor do they burst. Stop telling lies, I beg you.

3K dmg (not dps)! And it is not from burning + fear! So plz stop telling lies, also )

Amaterasu.6280:

The Boz.2038:

Amaterasu.6280:

To whoever that said condi spikes don’t exist, you are playing a different game.

It does exist, and at large.

It only exists in the terror+dhuumfire combination, and that is far from the 100% HP to 0 in 1.5s that you described and then deleted.
Realistically, ~2.5-3k DPS for 3 seconds is the most you can expect, and that is if your target doesn’t have a stun break or a condi clear.
Is that a lot? Yes. Everyone agrees about that. But conditions, as a whole, are neither OP, nor do they burst. Stop telling lies, I beg you.

LOL, you are delusional my friend…that is all I have to say. Good joke.

He’s the only one giving examples from the game that support his claims.

Please, tell us the condi combo from a single player that isn’t Dhuumfire+Terror that bursts.

I’ll wait.

Terror+ any other combination of conditions. Terror alone does 6-7k damage in a single bout between a terror necro and anything else.

A condition necro can expect ~1000 damage per second from terror when there’s another condition present.
What type of confrontation do you honestly expect to survive if you’re CCed for six to seven seconds of a fight?

jportell.2197:

Terror+ any other combination of conditions. Terror alone does 6-7k damage in a single bout between a terror necro and anything else.

For those playing the home game, 6k damage from Terror alone, given Terror does roughly 830 DPS (I believe it used to do 1000 DPS, nerfed by 17%), is approximately 7.23 seconds of Fear. Reaper’s Mark is 1 second of Fear, Doom is 1.5 if you’re < 600 range, Spectral Wall is 1 (assuming they don’t charge back into it). 3.5 seconds * 1.5 with Master of Terror’s 50% Fear duration increase * 1.3 with 30 points in Spite for 30% increased condi duration.

I might be missing something, and that equation might be incorrect, but that’s looking at 6.825 seconds of Fear, assuming:

1. You don’t have Stability.
2. You’re out of Stun Breaks.
3. An Ally doesn’t cleanse you.

And regardless of all of that, 7+ seconds is “burst” now?

Also, people probably are burning, bleeding from multiple sources, then get feared. Then they think Terror did 8k damage to them in 3 seconds.

Sounds like the problem is Dhuumfire adding another 1000 DPS. Sounds like we’ve covered this.

Sounds like the problem isn’t conditions, but this one example.

Also, I do more than 6-7k damage in one Hammer combo.

I’ll wait for more examples.

Wow.
A thread talking about condition amulets… leads to a massive necro QQ fest…
As if the other dozen threads made specifically for that… or even the necro forums… weren’t place enough…

Boz@: Stavility,Stun breaker,condi remove.
If warrior will deal you dmg and you just run around and dont heal or use you any offensive/defensive skills, you will dye. Why do you excpect here diffrent.
Terror combo need a time to build up. Necro wont use it best offensive combo on target with low condis on them, its a waste.
What I want to say : if you dont remove condis or your condi removing skill is on CD (while you have lot condis on you) prepare stability or stun breaker!

Would be great if we could all stay on topic and answer the following questions:

1.) If the only way to fix condition damage in sPvP is tweaking the amulets, how would you play around the stats (namely the condition damage portion of the amulets) to make it so that conditions are reasonable but not too crazy?

*I’m aware that conditions are necessary but it would be great if it was a little more active than apply > play defensively after.

2.) If tweaking amulets in sPvP isn’t the way to fix condition damage in sPvP, then what will fix conditions in sPvP?

The thing is you all have great ideas but I don’t think ANET even has the time to make new stats such as condition damage or duration reduction. I think tweaking amulets might be a quicker way to fix the problem at hand while preserving PvE balancing.

Also would like to see what a Dev has to say in this matter if possible.

Keep it clean.

Amir.1570:

Would be great if we could all stay on topic and answer the following questions:

1.) If the only way to fix condition damage in sPvP is tweaking the amulets, how would you play around the stats (namely the condition damage portion of the amulets) to make it so that conditions are reasonable but not too crazy?

*I’m aware that conditions are necessary but it would be great if it was a little more active than apply > play defensively after.

2.) If tweaking amulets in sPvP isn’t the way to fix condition damage in sPvP, then what will fix conditions in sPvP?

The thing is you all have great ideas but I don’t think ANET even has the time to make new stats such as condition damage or duration reduction. I think tweaking amulets might be a quicker way to fix the problem at hand while preserving PvE balancing.

Also would like to see what a Dev has to say in this matter if possible.

Keep it clean.

Again, your bringing up a much larger issue than something as simple as amulets can fix…

I’ll run through the logic for you…
Ideally you wouldn’t give any amulet max condition dmg, at most make like 300~ power, 500~ precision, 569~ tough or vit, 450~ condi dmg amulet so they still pull viable dmg, yet not an obscene amount of condi dmg.
It’d push condition dmg more into a secondary slot, so it isn’t, short of rarely, a specs sole or by-far-main source of dmg…

That’d ease up the requirements for cleansing on specs, it’d let conditions specs not be so spammy as every other weapon ability opens up to them and becomes a viable option…
Since Anet isn’t big on rebalancing… it’d really kitten up the engineer condi/bomb specs and necromancer condi dmg spec… cutting 20-30% off their condition dmg is a heavy blow to say the least.
It’d further cripple staff-mesmers, but probly won’t effect crit-bleed ones all that much.
Thieves would do much better, exc…

But the biggest issue is that it would solidify the bunker/spike meta pretty much completely… you would either build for dmg (since now being condi dmg involves getting more physical dmg stats, which replaces some defensive stats… so you end up being glassy to pull any sort of good dmg…) or bunker…
I don’t think it’d help the game, and it by far seems the most changes to amulets alone can do…

Cutting back crit dmg to 30~%, cutting crit dmg as a stat and reworking ‘on crit’ sigils a lil to compensate…
Now that would take the game somewhere…

For the umpteenth time, conditions as a whole aren’t the problem.
I feel like I’m ramming my head against a brick wall here.

Atherakhia.4086:

Expertise isn’t a real stat. People aren’t going 30 points in spite for condition duration. They’re going 30pts in spite for Dhuum and the fact that they get condition duration is a bonus. Before Dhuum they would run 0/30/20/0/20 or 0/30/10/10/20 etc etc. So while this stat can be gotten via trait expenditure or select few sigils/runes, it’s not something gone after specifically to have it.

Expertise boosts damage by more than dhuumfire. The reason people wouldn’t spec into it is because the tree had zero traits that were useful to a condi build. Now it has one.

The Boz.2038:

For the umpteenth time, conditions as a whole aren’t the problem.
I feel like I’m ramming my head against a brick wall here.

Just dps ones and removal…
Which is a very large part of conditions…

Yes dps conditions were intended to have a single stat behind them and lead to mainly ‘only condition dmg’ specs.
No that isn’t necessarily a good thing… it means condition dmg specs innately are forced into a role of ‘survivable pressure’… it means specs are required to have hard counters to all conditions (just because dps ones and imob) to be playable.

It’s a massive mess of pigeon-holing what specs are viable without improving gameplay in the slightest…

Don’t even get me into condition removal as a topic though…
That’s a kittening kitten fest that Anet doesn’t even seem to want to touch…

garethh.3518:

Just dps ones and removal…
Which is a very large part of conditions…

Nope. And nope.

garethh.3518:

Yes dps conditions were intended to have a single stat behind them and lead to mainly ‘only condition dmg’ specs.

They were meant to lead to above-average survivability characters dealing out steady, sustained damage.

garethh.3518:

No that isn’t necessarily a good thing…

Yes, it is.

garethh.3518:

it means condition dmg specs innately are forced into a role of ‘survivable pressure’…

Working as intended…

garethh.3518:

it means specs are required to have hard counters to all conditions (just because dps ones and imob) to be playable.

How the hell do you get to that conclusion? It’s like saying “thanks to warriors, a build needs to have access to perma protection, stability, retaliation, vigor and regeneration to be playable”. Why do people think that pretty much ignoring conditions as a whole is intended gameplay?

garethh.3518:

It’s a massive mess of pigeon-holing what specs are viable without improving gameplay in the slightest…

…and your idea is to gut some of those viable builds and force them into some kind of power/condi hybrid?

garethh.3518:

Don’t even get me into condition removal as a topic though…
That’s a kittening kitten fest that Anet doesn’t even seem to want to touch…

That’s because condition removal exists. You’re supposed to bring some. Making a build with no condition removal and then crying to Anet to fix your build without changing your build does not work.

The Boz.2038:

garethh.3518:

it means specs are required to have hard counters to all conditions (just because dps ones and imob) to be playable.

How the hell do you get to that conclusion? It’s like saying “thanks to warriors, a build needs to have access to perma protection, stability, retaliation, vigor and regeneration to be playable”. Why do people think that pretty much ignoring conditions as a whole is intended gameplay?

garethh.3518:

Don’t even get me into condition removal as a topic though…
That’s a kittening kitten fest that Anet doesn’t even seem to want to touch…

That’s because condition removal exists. You’re supposed to bring some. Making a build with no condition removal and then crying to Anet to fix your build without changing your build does not work.

That is irony.

The Boz.2038:

garethh.3518:

It’s a massive mess of pigeon-holing what specs are viable without improving gameplay in the slightest…

…and your idea is to gut some of those viable builds and force them into some kind of power/condi hybrid?

You should reread that post.
If your too lazy, to sum it up, I said “the best possible outcome for changing only amulets is hybrid power/condi builds, but it is a bad/messy outcome so you are trying to tackle a problem larger than your proposed fix”

Anyways…
You seem to think, “because conditions exist, because they fit an intended role and because they have counters; they are fine” which… if that’s all your thought process behind it… cool… but tragically I expect more from myself… and more from game designers…

The penultimate goal of any change in a game is engagement… for a game to not be engaging is for a game to, forever and always, fail.

Conditions aren’t an unworkable concept, but for them to force builds into cleansing traits/utilities that Anet clearly setup for a game that didn’t require condition removal on every spec… a game that didn’t require a fair deal of condi removal to be able to play a spec…
That is bad game design.

Conditions, when it comes to small fights, tend to be fine. Working around an enemies cleansing and timing your own cleanses right creates pretty interesting gameplay… chills, cripples, exc. are balanced out in it to be worth using, and debatably worth cleansing… but as fights get larger and more miscelaneous conditions bounce around, it completely destroys that dynamic, as any sane amount of cleansing is burned through in a few seconds flat or left useless because of the random cover conditions… even those cover conditions, chill, weakness, crip, exc. tend to stick around for obnoxious amounts of time since it is balanced 1v1… but not at all in larger fights.
That is bad gameplay.

The way I see it, the real problem people have is with Burning and Terror.

Burning is a bit too strong in tPvP and too weak in PvE, which makes it hard for the balance team to adjust for both environments, and I imagine that a fairly core mechanic like how a condition works is not the type of thing that anyone wants to split between PvE and PvP.

Terror is a different kind of problem. It does both CC and fairly high damage at the same time, while preventing many of the things that allow you to defend against those types of attacks. In PvE, this is mostly just a DoT because anything that you really need CC to protect yourself from is probably immune to fear anyways.

Terror can probably be put in a better place by reducing the damage in PvP, but the problems with burning are probably more structural in nature.

@Amir: some of us are trying to stay on topic in arguing that condition damage in sPvP isn’t broken at all. People only think it’s broken because of select builds becoming prevalent more recently (see: Terror+Dhuumfire).

When Backstab was a big deal, was there an uproar to decrease direct damage across the board? No? Because it was one thing on one class, and not a fault of the system?

I’m honestly not sold the system of conditions is broken, and I spent time thinking that conditions should be changed somehow. I think certain conditions could use some tuning down in their availability (hello, Blind), but after thinking about it, for basically all classes but this one Necro build, conditions seem to feel well balanced between being able to dodge/cleanse and taking steady damage when you make a mistake/do not have a build to compensate.

Sort of like not having a build to compensate for getting stun-locked into the ground.

Can anyone prove conditions do too much undodgeable damage without this degrading into a Dhuumfire+Terror discussion? Please do so.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Can anyone prove conditions do too much undodgeable damage without this degrading into a Dhuumfire+Terror discussion? Please do so.

Fight a crit/bleed mesmer or decent engi.
(pretty much the only viable condi specs short of ranger… and rangers isn’t dodgeable but also not amazing condi dmg)

You nerf condi amulets, you nerf condi builds that are weak at the moment, like condi thief or you nerf balanced condi builds like condi warrior for no reason.

First thing we would need, is a real combat log, with a good detailed “What Downed me exactly” instead of the top damage I received.

I saw Bleeding for 22k as the top contender last time I played. Is bleeding damage OP? Of course not, the fight lasted a good 3 min, 3v3, we had Regen going.

People are seeing Bleed, Burning and Terror coming on top because the fight lasted so long, they had time to tick. When I fight an ele that can use his fire sword ele, hit me 21 times with it for 21k in the space of 10 second, how can anyone perceive Burning as OP?

If 2+ peoples tries to apply Burning to the same Immobilized source (can’t dodge, invulnerability on cooldown etc) , it’s almost as if they wasted a skill, the damage is constant, not bursty. You wont have 2 Burning stack, only longer duration, so more time to cleanse/be cleansed and even better, more time to counter attack too.

Now, put 2+ people that does direct damage (that hits normally higher than a Burning stack, looking at you burst ele and thief) and your target, in the same no cooldown-no dodge situation, will all receive those hits directly to his health pool, instantly with no way to counter play. And if someone says that if he had dodge/invulnerability he could, guess what, he could’ve too vs skills that applied conditions.

If you perceive the Death Toll as a page of reference of what actually kills you, and that condition comes on top, ask yourself how long did the fight last, could I have removed some of this damage, and what exactly downed me in this situation. I normally die because of a burst skill that hits me for 4k-5k (even more lol) when I’m loaded with pressure (aka conditions). The death toll won’t put it at top, but if that burst hit wouldn’t have touched me, I probably wouldn’t be dead even with bleeds/burning on me.

garethh.3518:

That is irony.

How is that irony? What’s ironic in those statements? Do you even know what irony is?

garethh.3518:

You should reread that post.
If your too lazy, to sum it up, I said “the best possible outcome for changing only amulets is hybrid power/crit builds, but it is a bad/messy outcome so you are trying to tackle a problem larger than your proposed fix”

Power and crit isn’t a hybrid build. It’s the standard “white damage” build.
And the standard “white damage” build should never have access to high condition damage at the same time.

garethh.3518:

Anyways…
You seem to think, “because conditions exist, because they fit an intended role and because they have counters; they are fine” which… if that’s all your thought process behind it… cool… but tragically I expect more from myself… and more from game designers…

Well… if it exists, if it is working as intended, and if it has counters and is balanced, then it is fine.
Where do you see a problem in that? If it works, don’t fix it.

garethh.3518:

The penultimate goal of any change in a game is engagement… for a game to not be engaging is for a game to, forever and always, fail.

What a novel idea! OK, so… how does this have anything to do with the topic at hand?

garethh.3518:

Conditions aren’t an unworkable concept, but for them to force builds into cleansing traits/utilities that Anet clearly setup for a game that didn’t require condition removal on every spec… a game that didn’t require a fair deal of condi removal to be able to play a spec…
That is bad game design.

Let’s try this…
“Damage isn’t an unworkable concept, but for it to force builds into healing traits/skills that Anet clearly setup for a game that didn’t require healing damage on every spec… a game that didn’t require a fair deal of damage removal to be able to play a spec…
That is bad game design.”
Yeah, the word salad comes out about the same.

garethh.3518:

Conditions, when it comes to small fights, tend to be fine. Working around an enemies cleansing and timing your own cleanses right creates pretty interesting gameplay… chills, cripples, exc. are balanced out in it to be worth using, and debatably worth cleansing… but as fights get larger and more miscelaneous conditions bounce around, it completely destroys that dynamic, as any sane amount of cleansing is burned through in a few seconds flat or left useless because of the random cover conditions… even those cover conditions, chill, weakness, crip, exc. tend to stick around for obnoxious amounts of time since it is balanced 1v1… but not at all in larger fights.
That is bad gameplay.

Shall we try the “replace condi with damage” approach again?

The Boz.2038:

Let’s try this…
“Damage isn’t an unworkable concept, but for it to force builds into healing traits/skills that Anet clearly setup for a game that didn’t require healing damage on every spec… a game that didn’t require a fair deal of damage removal to be able to play a spec…
That is bad game design.”
Yeah, the word salad comes out about the same.

I’m not sure of the meaning of the above paragraph but I’d like to remind people around that ANet did force us to take healing. The skill #6 is always a healing one no?

And lo and behold, healing works against conditions too!

The Boz.2038:

And lo and behold, healing works against conditions too!

Except Poison and the many non damaging conditions obviously.

It still works against poison. It is just less effective. The majority of the thread has revolved around damaging conditions.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The problem is moreover that condition builds have thoughness, which directly affect power builds. On the otherside power builds have no stat to reduce condition damage. As simple as that.

Cough vitality cough

Tenebrous.2451:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The problem is moreover that condition builds have thoughness, which directly affect power builds. On the otherside power builds have no stat to reduce condition damage. As simple as that.

Cough vitality cough

Oh yes because warriors with the highest health in game just absolutely face tank dem condis! /sarcasm

Tenebrous.2451:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The problem is moreover that condition builds have thoughness, which directly affect power builds. On the otherside power builds have no stat to reduce condition damage. As simple as that.

Cough vitality cough

Too bad vit traitlines are not meant for dps, unless you have a really high base hp pool (Warrrior or Necro for example) power builds are going to melt vs condition ones in no time (800+ burning ticks anyone?)…and probably not going to kill too..even with an high pool, you MUST remove conditions if you want to survive, if you can’t clean cond dmg no matter how many hp you have you’re going down before killing something..and if you finally manage to down someone…brace yourself…fear fear fear, wells on wells…big kittening bomb…fear fear fear…and so on..

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Make some someones, put some points in vitality, use cleanses, combos, boons and regen.
Conditions are de only way to fight some classes that can run tank + dps at same time, classes that can attack and survive at same time.

Nerf condition damage will make these classes ultraoverpower, and restart the require clicle.

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

jportell.2197:

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

You cant have everything in you spec! It will be OP bunker if he can prodect him self agains everything in the game!

emon.1863:

jportell.2197:

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

You cant have everything in you spec! It will be OP bunker if he can prodect him self agains everything in the game!

And speccing heavily into vitality does absolutely nothing to protect from conditions

I think they need to have boons that stop blind/chill/immobilize. AOE blind shouldn’t be that accessible (just like aegis). Condi aoes should be limited to 3 people. AOE is already bad as it is, but unlike direct dmg, when condi lands, it lasts. Once you move from the direct dmg aoe, you don’t take anymore damage.

garethh.3518

That is the difference between you and me.
You only want a game to work, I want a game to be worth playing.

Yeh, that’s a fair way to characterize his POV. Szesh.

BTW if you have something that reduces Condi damage and you can cleanse the condis, you go back to privileging direct damage.

To be really pedantic, the concept behind conditions is that you inflict somewhat damage but it is over time and can be cleansed. The condition build has to balance the risk of that setup.

I am surprised people are not asking for lower cooldowns on cleanses or a wider array of abilities with some kind of cleansing or condition transfer to them. It avoids having yet another stat you have to juggle in your head.

jportell.2197:

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

+1 on this.

No one has enough condi clense at this point, except mayyyyyyybe spirit rangers because of the water field in healing spring.

There plenty ways to evade + mitigate physical dmg (aegis, proc, evades, dodges) but you’re pretty much screwed when it comes to condis. The only thing you can do is pop your utilities and/or heals. In a normal setting you can realistically only fit 1 condi clear in your utilities…the other 2 are crucial to your build. Thus if you try to bring more condi cleanse, you will end up with a unsuccessful build.

Condi vs physical dmg is very skewed, especially with the current meta.

Necros can tank all day in and out of DS while dishing out nuclear bombs of condis…what exactly can a direct dmg class do that equates to this?

Tenebrous.2451:

I am surprised people are not asking for lower cooldowns on cleanses or a wider array of abilities with some kind of cleansing or condition transfer to them. It avoids having yet another stat you have to juggle in your head.

I’ve always been a fan of splitting dmg conditions and non, when it comes to what a cleanse can get rid of, then allowing dodge rolling while immobilized.

It’d allow cleansing to be much more balanceable, since most condition removals would only focus on bleed/burn/poison/confuse, so you don’t have so many conditions deemed only useful for ‘cover’ and such a need to instantly remove conditions (mainly immobilize). It’d allow crip/chill/exc. to be more easily balanced (since they won’t be easily cleansed) so can be much more strategic (and typically shorter duration) conditions.

It’d let dps conditions exist, and have a meta around them, yet the this stupid ‘spec for the few good condi removals or dont play the game’ deal won’t be going on… I mean… if Anet weren’t the devs… so they would take advantage of how easy conditions are to fix from there… but knowing Anet they would just leave cleansing as is… instead of switching cleanses to be more ‘anti dps condition’ centric, and possibly tweaking weapon abilities and like 15 or 25 point minor traits to have a lil (to give specs innately a bare-bones amount of dps-condi defense, so the specs are playable).
That and it would take them a year to get around to tweaking chill/crip/weakness/blind to be good strategic conditions…

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

+1 on this.

No one has enough condi clense at this point, except mayyyyyyybe spirit rangers because of the water field in healing spring.

There plenty ways to evade + mitigate physical dmg (aegis, proc, evades, dodges) but you’re pretty much screwed when it comes to condis. The only thing you can do is pop your utilities and/or heals. In a normal setting you can realistically only fit 1 condi clear in your utilities…the other 2 are crucial to your build. Thus if you try to bring more condi cleanse, you will end up with a unsuccessful build.

Condi vs physical dmg is very skewed, especially with the current meta.

Necros can tank all day in and out of DS while dishing out nuclear bombs of condis…what exactly can a direct dmg class do that equates to this?

Every one of the the the items you list will prevent Condi damage from being applied in the first place.

Your last sentence about Death Shroud is just plain wrong. Necro Condi builds have very poor Life Force generation so utilizing DS is difficult. In one encounter, you can’t generate enough LF to refill an empty bar. If you can, then it is not a Condi build.

Amaterasu.6280:

Necros can tank all day in and out of DS while dishing out nuclear bombs of condis…what exactly can a direct dmg class do that equates to this?

Instagib someone.
Elementalists, from a 900~ range, teleporting in and CC’locking, can instagib next to anyone.
Thieves can backstab from stealth, on a very survivable body, for 5->9k dmg.
Mesmers can shatter-spike with the whole blurred frenzy for 10-15k dmg every 10~ seconds… they can also I-berserker for 6~k.

Necro’s, even deathshroud centric necro’s (which aren’t all that common, since condi-necro’s don’t tend to run spectral armor or have 15 in soul reaping) are terribly susceptible to well timed hard or coordinated spikes.

Death shroud regen from kitten like ‘spectral armor’ gives %DeathShroud on an internal CD, so if you manage to burst him within 2~ seconds he will get jack kitten from it… but if you’re a scrub attempting to burst over 5 or 6 seconds and don’t interrupt the life siphon… your going to see them as nigh unkillable beasts…
Necro’s are strong because of their massive condi output and many 2-3s fears… not so much death shroud’s survivability.

Are we playing the same game? Since the DS change in the most recent patch, condi necros can literally tank a 15k+ burst in DS alone…

Amaterasu.6280:

Are we playing the same game? Since the DS change in the most recent patch, condi necros can literally tank a 15k+ burst in DS alone…

Perhaps, if the necro has a full bar and some investment in the Soul Reaping line, but

1. It is hard for a standard condi build to fill up that bar. Condi necros will have it up far less than other builds.
2. If a Condi necro does this, it is very unlikely he will be able to use that again in the engagement.

The post we were talking about said Necrosis could tank all day with DS when consistent use of ds with a full lifeforce bar is just not possible for a condi build

The people who made those Death Shroud videos when the patch came out were also getting two-shotted in tournaments because they couldn’t realistically get more than 30 percent life force.

Just some food for thought.

I dont usually complain that something is OP, i usually try to learn how to counter or reroll. But today i saw something a little unusual, a necro was able to burst me to death in 4 seconds using terror and torment. I have no idea what happened, since it went down pretty fast, but i did took 5k damage from torment in less than 4 seconds, while not beeing able to do anything because of terror.

Its a given that i was caught off guard (was capping a point on farthest point), but the fact that this necro had a ton of toughness ( because i after i got killed i searched for him to try dueling again ) on top of so much burst damage is a bit awckward. I get it that usually you need toughness to wait for conditions to stack, but when you can deal 15k dmg in 4 seconds while doing crowd control and beeing able to take a hit is a bit over the edge.

Taking 5,000 damage from torment in 4 seconds is pretty impressive. That requires nine stacks of torment, which is three times what a necromancer can cast. Amazing!