Guild Wars 2

Sure is. I wish i had taken an screenshot of it

To be exact it wasnt 5k, it was 45xx, but i rounded it. Also dont know if it took exactly 4s, but i died just after terror had ended, so i think it took around this much time.

By the way, im not saying i shouldnt have lost that fight (because i really should, was caught off guard and my enemy had pretty impressive skill as i have not seen another necro deal so much dmg in so little time while being in complete control of the fight), but i do think toughness should be balanced, or give toughness / vit into power/prec amulets to even things out.

Oh look, this thread is talking about Necro’s Terror+Dhuumfire again, complete with exaggerated numbers. I’ll trust that it felt like 4 seconds, but it most certainly wasn’t from a single Necro source.

If there’s one thing I’ll never believe, it’s a player’s sense of time during a video game that’s even remotely fast-paced.

Anyway, again, please question whether it’s the conditions mechanic or just a certain build. And remember, if you never felt pressured by condis, then that would mean they’d be basically useless.

I was once in WvW against a Thief, and his Thief friend came in from the side and jumped me. Once he engaged, I was down within 3 actual seconds. Double backstab while I didn’t have stunbreaks/stability left from having to shrug off the first Thief’s Basilisk. These were the same two Thieves I spent probably a good 30+ seconds fighting 1v2 less than 90 seconds before (the reason Defy Pain was still down).

Sometimes we mess up, and sometimes those mistakes are punished harder than others. That isn’t to say I wouldn’t like to see Terror/Dhuumfire reworked, but I think people often tend to not realize the Necro is stacking bleeds until the Fear goes off and there are 7+ stacks already in place.

I see your point Cogbyrn, but the thing is that in sPvP a burst thief, or any burst build which relies on power / crit dmg / crit change to deal high damage, has no to little toughness and vitality. This means that if you survive the first attack and counter they can easily be defeated. But the thing is that since conditions gear also give you toughness, you can “condition burst” enemies while also beeing hard to kill. This applies to every condition build not just necros, its just that necros have more access to conditions and so have more to gain.

Basically what i mean is that it seems that what currently happens is:

Burst > Burst
Bunker > Burst
Condition > Burst
Condition > Bunker

teonimesic.1403:

Basically what i mean is that it seems that what currently happens is:

Burst > Burst
Bunker > Burst
Condition > Burst
Condition > Bunker

Your talking about 1 necro spec… and clumping it up as ‘all of condition dmg’
Games go through OP specs and underpowered… surprise!!!
It is irrelevant to whether a whole category of dmg is broken or not…

teonimesic.1403:

I see your point Cogbyrn, but the thing is that in sPvP a burst thief, or any burst build which relies on power / crit dmg / crit change to deal high damage, has no to little toughness and vitality. This means that if you survive the first attack and counter they can easily be defeated. But the thing is that since conditions gear also give you toughness, you can “condition burst” enemies while also beeing hard to kill. This applies to every condition build not just necros, its just that necros have more access to conditions and so have more to gain.

Hm…I am sorry, because you are speaking of some other thief class I know. Thieves have can go stealth and escape, so “after first burst its easy target” is fauls. Also thief has +100500 evades and highest mobility.
Easy to kill after burst ? – No ( of couse if thief is noob and dont know his limits yet)

Tenebrous.2451:

Amaterasu.6280:

Are we playing the same game? Since the DS change in the most recent patch, condi necros can literally tank a 15k+ burst in DS alone…

Perhaps, if the necro has a full bar and some investment in the Soul Reaping line, but

1. It is hard for a standard condi build to fill up that bar. Condi necros will have it up far less than other builds.
2. If a Condi necro does this, it is very unlikely he will be able to use that again in the engagement.

The post we were talking about said Necrosis could tank all day with DS when consistent use of ds with a full lifeforce bar is just not possible for a condi build

What necro doesn’t invest in soul reaping now? 30/20/0/0/20 is pretty much the standard right now. That’s 20% more hp in DS, +10% life force gain, spectral armor at 50% hp…and taking spectral armor as a utility is very common now. Life force is NOT hard to get at all…when I play a necro I always have at least half my DS bar up when I enter and I use it very aggressively.

The only time a necro is most vulnerable is in the beginning of the match with no life force.

Conditions are too heavy in this game, there aren’t enough counters besides remove condition skills. Only thing that happens is that they are reapplied, in short conditions are applied at a much faster rate than they can be removed.

Solution imo is to introduce skills like Melandru’s Resilence from gw1. Gw2 unbalance exists because anet allows skills to be unchecked.

How many condition-applying skills are undodgeable? By that I mean do not provide any really good opportunity to dodge, a la instant applications (Doom) or something like Marks, where they trigger instantly and the animation is fairly subtle. Maybe we can start a list.

Amaterasu.6280:

Tenebrous.2451:

Amaterasu.6280:

Are we playing the same game? Since the DS change in the most recent patch, condi necros can literally tank a 15k+ burst in DS alone…

Perhaps, if the necro has a full bar and some investment in the Soul Reaping line, but

1. It is hard for a standard condi build to fill up that bar. Condi necros will have it up far less than other builds.
2. If a Condi necro does this, it is very unlikely he will be able to use that again in the engagement.

The post we were talking about said Necrosis could tank all day with DS when consistent use of ds with a full lifeforce bar is just not possible for a condi build

What necro doesn’t invest in soul reaping now? 30/20/0/0/20 is pretty much the standard right now. That’s 20% more hp in DS, +10% life force gain, spectral armor at 50% hp…and taking spectral armor as a utility is very common now. Life force is NOT hard to get at all…when I play a necro I always have at least half my DS bar up when I enter and I use it very aggressively.

The only time a necro is most vulnerable is in the beginning of the match with no life force.

Half won’t absorb what you said it would, what was it, 15k worth of damage? Plus if you use it aggressively, your exiting with less than you started, especially if you are using scepter, and if you are condi, then you are using that for most of the fight.

As you know, that bar fluctuates quite a bit, so allways staring with half? Really? After using it aggressively in the last fight?

And yes, lf generation is difficult in the middle of a fight with a condi build. You can not continually tank with DS with a condi build which was the comment I was originally responding to said.

If you’re struggling to dodge marks it’s on you tbh.

As soon as the necro switches to staff, he is going to be laying mark of blood and probably chillblains. This is because staff 1 is terrible and he would much rather have his scepter out unless he wants to drop marks. This is overridden by either of the following situations however.

When he has a huge stack of condis and staff out, or is immobilised with burst incoming, he is going to be casting putrid, and in the former case, likely following it with reapers to stop the transferred condis being cleansed or transferred back. If someone is down, or he just laid a spectral wall right behind you, he’s going to be casting reapers (or doom, but you want to dodge either right?).

Staff 1 is so bad that avoiding its use by spamming all your marks (in 2-3-4-5-pause-2 order no less, to take advantage of mark of bloods recharge, blast off the poison field, and fear to let the conditions tick) then switching to deathshroud is actually the correct play a fair amount of the time, despite what people think about it. So if you see him throw a mark and he starts to wave that hand again, guess what’s coming?

It’s not all about animations. Sometimes it’s about knowing what your opponents best play is. In fact I usually rely on that more than animations in group fights, considering the particles being thrown around. Unless it’s some giant norn towering over all the ground effects.

Off topic stuff that is indirectly related:

It’s actually just amazing to me when I fear someone with corrupt boon. You popped stability, you know what’s coming. Sure you can gamble on me not having it if you haven’t seen me use it yet, but the effect is strong enough that I’d be willing to spend the endurance on a hedge if I see the necro starting a long animation. If you popped stability with less than six boons, no endurance, no block, no invuln, and no evade when there’s a necro around, I don’t actually know what to say.

It’s like warriors who think they can land earthshaker because they just used backbreaker, but I haven’t used a single stunbreak yet. Or thieves who think I’m going to stand still for their infiltrators strike over my spectral wall.

Whenever you use any ability, if you know your opponents most effective response to it, you put yourself in a position where you know what your opponent is likely to do before he does. That should be influencing your decision making, and his if he is good. You’ll know when you fight someone who is consistently able to move further down that decision tree than you, or adjust more rapidly, because it will feel like everything you do is just a tiny bit too late.

If your opponent makes poor responses to everything you do, you win. If he makes good responses but you’re ready to counter them before he even knows he needs to use them, you win. In that first example, if a ranger uses RaO (don’t ask me why he has RaO slotted :P), and dodges the corrupt he should already know is coming, he probably just killed me, because I have no further responses to someone with 20 seconds of stability. If he uses RaO and fails to dodge the corrupt, he probably just killed himself, because I got a free fear to begin a fearchain with.

Short version of all that:

It is sometimes easy to tell what skill is coming before they even start an animation, because the situation is limiting the number of effective plays they have. Marks are a good example of this.

Completely agree with Mammoth. The sole purpose of switching to staff, is to use marks, there’s nothing else to it.

Since Dhuumfire nobody takes greater marks, you can block or dodge (or both).

Atherakhia.4086:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The problem is conditions have a single stat feeding into them.

This is an oft repeated and completely false myth. Conditions don’t have a single stat feeding into them. They have 3:

Malice: this provides their damage, and is the stat most people refer to.

Expertise: This little factored stat accounts for condition duration. Expertise by itself is capable of doubling both the overall damage done of any condition, as well as the damage per second via how many conditions you can stack at one time. Because of this, Expertise is fundamental to any good condition build.

Precision: Now, this only indirectly affects conditions, but nonetheless it is an important stat. Many of the ways classes inflict conditions are with procs. The dreaded dhuumfire, incendiary powder, barbed precision, sharper images, precise strikes, Sigil of Earth, all of these need precision in order to function.

Because of this, you can think of the rabid amulet as the “pure condition damage” amulet. It provides the precision needed for procs, the malice needed for damage, and toughness to survive. The only stat it is missing is expertise, which isn’t given by any amulets.

By comparison, some amulets that are noticeably missing that would be the equivalent of rabid would be

Power/Precision/Toughness
Precision/Crit Damage/Vitality
Crit Damage / Precision /Toughness

And so on, listing primary stat first and secondary stats later. Now, Valkyire Amulet is closest to this by having power and crit damage, however this comes with the caveat that crit damage is wholly dependent on a stat that is missing, which is precision. Crit damage is the only stat like this, though.

Expertise isn’t a real stat. People aren’t going 30 points in spite for condition duration. They’re going 30pts in spite for Dhuum and the fact that they get condition duration is a bonus. Before Dhuum they would run 0/30/20/0/20 or 0/30/10/10/20 etc etc. So while this stat can be gotten via trait expenditure or select few sigils/runes, it’s not something gone after specifically to have it.

The same with Precision for the most part. While it’s nice to have for the on crit application of bleeds and dhuumfire, the fact that 30pts in curses gives crit chance is inconsequential. While not available in PvP, most rangers in WvW actually run Apothecary gear which grants 0 crit and 0 power and they have a lot of on-crit application as well.

So while there are other stats that have some loose connection to condition duration, the fact that they are taken is more utility oriented and not damage related and not really impacting the issues being discussed in this thread all that much. I mean afterall, if you’re going to factor in expertise for conditions, you may aswell factor it in for power too as people want it for daze/snare duration and the like as well.

Now that all being said, I don’t really find conditions to be the problem. It really is limited to burn and not Neco specific either.

Not all condition builds are necros, and not all people build for pure conditions. The fact is that condition duration is extremely important for affecting how much damage conditions do and the rate they do damage. The other fact is that you need precision to use the procs: dhuumfire is useless at a 4% crit rate because you can go entire fights with dhuumire never activating. The presence of these traits being on condition relevant stats just means there is good synergy in building for them, and not that precision and duration are ineffective.

Let me give an example: Bleeding shot fires off a 6 second bleed every second. With no duration, this leads up to 6 stacks of bleeding, doing 600+ damage per second from bleeds. With a 50% duration this causes a 9 second bleed, leading to 9 stacks or 900+ damage per second. With 100% duration this causes a 12 second bleed, leading to 12 stacks and 1200+ damage per second.

Amir.1570:

Would be great if we could all stay on topic and answer the following questions:

1.) If the only way to fix condition damage in sPvP is tweaking the amulets, how would you play around the stats (namely the condition damage portion of the amulets) to make it so that conditions are reasonable but not too crazy?

*I’m aware that conditions are necessary but it would be great if it was a little more active than apply > play defensively after.

2.) If tweaking amulets in sPvP isn’t the way to fix condition damage in sPvP, then what will fix conditions in sPvP?

The thing is you all have great ideas but I don’t think ANET even has the time to make new stats such as condition damage or duration reduction. I think tweaking amulets might be a quicker way to fix the problem at hand while preserving PvE balancing.

Also would like to see what a Dev has to say in this matter if possible.

Keep it clean.

I suppose the problem with this is that it is a loaded question. I’m not sure conditions are a problem as much as it is player refusal to run vitality and run more cleanses in lieu of something else. They’ve got to learn: running extra utility is useless if you’re dead.

There are many flaws in the amulet system as it is that don’t pertain to conditions at all.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I suppose the problem with this is that it is a loaded question. I’m not sure conditions are a problem as much as it is player refusal to run vitality and run more cleanses in lieu of something else. They’ve got to learn: running extra utility is useless if you’re dead.

There are many flaws in the amulet system as it is that don’t pertain to conditions at all.

Yes, it’s past time for players to learn that all utilities are useless unless they break stun, provide stability or remove conditions. Unfortunately because those are always the most boring ones :/

jportell.2197:

Oh yes because warriors with the highest health in game just absolutely face tank dem condis! /sarcasm

Actually, a warrior facetanking condition damage and using his cleanses only on disabling effects is a pretty legit strategy. It’s a pretty effective method of killing a condition build; he can deal 50k+ damage before the conditions can deal 25k.

Archaon.6245:

and if you finally manage to down someone…brace yourself…fear fear fear, wells on wells…big kittening bomb…fear fear fear…and so on..

…what?
Is that a critical lack of understanding a necromancer’s downed state, or am I just reading you wrong?

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

It helps in both dealing damage to the condition attacker, and in waiting out for cleanse cooldowns or bigger stacks before removal. It’s not as effective as toughness vs physical damage simply because it works against all damage.

jportell.2197:

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

You’re not supposed to bring enough removal and HP in order to basically ignore conditions for an infinite amount of time. The very POINT of condition damage is that they get through ANY defense, no matter what, all they need is time. If your tactic is prolonging a fight, don’t complain that an enemy using a toolset that gets better the longer a fight lasts wipes the floor with you.

garethh.3518:

When I said power/crit I meant, power/condi, a lil typo, srries.

I suspected as much, but wasn’t sure.

garethh.3518:

That is the difference between you and me.
You only want a game to work, I want a game to be worth playing.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!
Oh, wait, sorry… I must regain my composure.
…
MBUAHAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, this is priceless. Absolutely priceless.

garethh.3518:

By any and all your requirements for the game’s balancing/tweaking… ro-sham-bo is your ideal game (balanced, has counters, works)… yet, quite obviously, that is a rather kittenty game to pay 60 bucks to play.
A game has to be engaging.

…what?
Your argument is… Wow. I don’t even know what spectrum of logical fallacy that falls under.

garethh.3518:

with dmg’ing conditions being less avoidable and doing more than physical attacks

Wrong on both counts.

garethh.3518:

and being on the same cleanse deal as every other condition… it’s not an unworkable but its not good, it’s not esports level material… it enforces the gap between burst dps and conditions…

It is esports level material. There. My argument beats your argument. Isn’t logic amazing?
Also, the gap between burst and conditions? Working as intended.

garethh.3518:

conditions basically set the bar for the ‘sustain game’ since the necessary condition removal to outlast a condi spec is only available through a gimmick or two…

…Every time I read a post like this, I experience a sudden and inexplicable urge to ram my head into a wall.
Why. Do. You. Try. To. Outlast. A. Build. That. Gets. Stronger. With. Time. !?!?!?!?
What kind of backwards logic is that?
“Oh, that thief can CnD/Backstab/Steal burst me down in 1.2 seconds! And he does it from stealth, with no warning! I know the perfect counter: I will burst him down faster!”
That doesn’t work, does it?
See, the situation with conditions is the other way around.

garethh.3518:

conditions basically clutter the kitten out of group fights, turning most ‘small fight strategic’ condi removal into ‘unworkable’ because of all the miscellaneous conditions floating around.

OK, yeah, looks like we’ll have to try the replace-condi-with-damage approach. Again.
“damage basically clutter the kitten out of group fights, turning most ‘small fight strategic’ healing into ‘unworkable’ because of all the miscellaneous damage flying around.”
Larger fights are harder to predict. Chaos ensues. It is expected, regardless of builds.
Also, straight-up damage has a distinct advantage in larger fights because two straight damage characters will always down one character in a 2v2 faster than the opposite enemy if said enemy has one character that is not specced into straight up damage.

garethh.3518:

A game, to have quality gameplay, especially if its so focused on being this skirmishy conquest deal (heavy focus on the specs/abilities themselves for depth) needs to be well made…

True. You are yet to prove that “your way” is “the way”, though.

garethh.3518:

the game needs to have a deeper ‘anti-condition’ setup than a bunch of long CD cleanses and a few gimmicky constant condi removals… the game needs to have a more fluctuating meta than just condi verse burst/physical dmg…

Umm… the game already has fluctuating meta. However, the blanket terms “burst”, “condi” and “bunker” are just that, blanket terms. The exact builds these terms cover are always in a state of flux. Hell, the Terror/Dhuumfire necro is less than a month old, and it’s already got THREE massive nerfs!

garethh.3518:

Physical dmg isn’t perfect… it has its flaws, the game is built on active defense (dodge rolling, blocking, exc.) so things like thief stealth-backstab and ele insta-gib spikes, quite obviously, don’t fit into the game… but short of that, physical burst tends to be more conditional, it involves being setup or putting your glassy self in the fray to achieve. Notable physical dmg is usually one a few longer CD, obvious animationed skills. Physical dmg (short of retaliation or stealth/insta-gib cheese) has its drawbacks and so doesn’t require such deliberate and out of the way speccing against, to have a playable spec…

You’re being self-ironic there, or something. “Oh, burst doesn’t work in this game, unless it does, and then it’s cheese, but outside of that, physical damage is hard to pull off”.
And you’re wrong.

garethh.3518:

I’ve always been a fan of splitting dmg conditions and non

If you’re saying what I think you’re saying (separate conditions and removals into damage and cc), then… wow… This… might actually be a good idea! Congratulations!

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

You’re not supposed to bring enough removal and HP in order to basically ignore conditions for an infinite amount of time. The very POINT of condition damage is that they get through ANY defense, no matter what, all they need is time. If your tactic is prolonging a fight, don’t complain that an enemy using a toolset that gets better the longer a fight lasts wipes the floor with you.

So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)

The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.

jportell.2197:

So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)

So essentially what you are saying is that a bunker build should be able to have no counters in the game no matter what? (See what I did there)
…
How the hell would that work? Do you realize what would happen to the game if that was the case, and bunkers were literally unable to lose a 1v1?
It seems to me like you haven’t thought your argument through to its logical conclusion…

jportell.2197:

The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.

Wrong on everything but the first thing. Or, in other words, [citation needed].

BUNKERS ARE NOT MEANT TO LOSE A 1V1 UNLESS THEY MESS UP! That is the point. Currently a necro can run through and condi bomb any bunker from full to almost nill in just a few seconds. How is that okay? Bunkers are meant to hold points and necro’s and general condition damage overall in this game is out of hand. The only reason HGH engi’s aren’t dominating the meta as they once did was because s/d thieves are a natural enemy to HGH and boon heavy bunker builds. However an s/d thief is not gauranteed to pwn a bunker guard. However a bunker guard or anything really can get steamrolled by a condi damage class.

By the definition of what a bunker should do this IS NOT OKAY! Bunker builds should have their; counters however what is the counter to a condition build? S/d Thieves… eh kinda. Burst? Not really thanks to the innate toughness of condition builds.
More condition builds? Well considering how easily condition builds (necros cough cough) can clear their own conditions with minimal work. This is a little ridiculous.

jportell.2197:

BUNKERS ARE NOT MEANT TO LOSE A 1V1 UNLESS THEY MESS UP! That is the point.[citation needed].

OK, so if bunkers are kings of 1v1, what is the counter to a team with, say, three bunkers and two DPS?
The change you are hoping for would make bunkers the most powerful and most important role in PvP… no wonder, since your sig betrays you play a bunker yourself.

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

BUNKERS ARE NOT MEANT TO LOSE A 1V1 UNLESS THEY MESS UP! That is the point.[citation needed].

OK, so if bunkers are kings of 1v1, what is the counter to a team with, say, three bunkers and two DPS?
The change you are hoping for would make bunkers the most powerful and most important role in PvP… no wonder, since your sig betrays you play a bunker yourself.

Stacking bunkers is a liability the reason for this is if one bunker gets trained by two or more dps classes they are done. If they get trained by more than one condition classes they are done. And bunkers don’t have the DEEPS to down anyone. Bunkers aren’t meant to lose 1v1s but they aren’t meant to win them either. They are meant to survive the 1v1 indefinitely. The bunker is there to support the DPS players and keep them alive. Condition builds don’t need the support that DPS builds do to survive. More than 2 bunkers on a team is a liability simply because they don’t offer the DPS/condition damage to down anyone with a moniker of toughness. Bunkers are not ever going to be the absolute KINGS of tournament play because they only bring one part of the puzzle to complete a team.

Stacking any type of class/build should be a huge liability however with condition damage builds it isn’t because condition damage builds provide the most AOE pressure while being much more survivable than a burst build and more damaging than a bunker build, and the point of the game is to stand inside a small circle. See the issue here? Or are you so hell bent on necros staying in their kittenedly overpowered state that you cannot see how the

@The Boz.2038
Sorry, you raise a few points I’d legitimately should have clarified, but seem to be too… emotional??… to really read what I wrote a number of times, instead of the silly post you wanted to respond to… I can’t see this going anywhere any time soon…
so anyways, best of luck.

@ The Boz Citation http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bunker

“A good bunker build can easily hold 1-2 players without dying until their team comes back to assist. Bunker builds are designed for survivability, to be able to remain in the area of the capture point, and so denying the opposition starting the capture timer”

jportell.2197:

Stacking bunkers is a liability the reason for this is if one bunker gets trained by two or more dps classes they are done. If they get trained by more than one condition classes they are done. And bunkers don’t have the DEEPS to down anyone. Bunkers aren’t meant to lose 1v1s but they aren’t meant to win them either. They are meant to survive the 1v1 indefinitely. The bunker is there to support the DPS players and keep them alive. Condition builds don’t need the support that DPS builds do to survive. More than 2 bunkers on a team is a liability simply because they don’t offer the DPS/condition damage to down anyone with a moniker of toughness. Bunkers are not ever going to be the absolute KINGS of tournament play because they only bring one part of the puzzle to complete a team.

Stacking any type of class/build should be a huge liability however with condition damage builds it isn’t because condition damage builds provide the most AOE pressure while being much more survivable than a burst build and more damaging than a bunker build, and the point of the game is to stand inside a small circle. See the issue here? Or are you so hell bent on necros staying in their kittenedly overpowered state that you cannot see how the

You successfully dodged the issue and avoided the question entirely. Congratulations.

jportell.2197:

So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)

The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.

I may be stupid, but Bunkers are there to last longer than their opponents so help can arrive when they need it and the point is not taken.

EDIT: Which is exactly what your quote from the wiki says. It does not mean that they should not loose in 1v1.

Put a condi cleanse on your bar and use it with some modicum of intelligence and bunker away. To be really pedantic, try looking at Melandru’s runes, and there is a sigil or two, and probably some traits that will help. You have to take condi as seriously as you take direct damage. You have to figure it into your build and take some tradeoffs for goodness sake.

The reason why people are whining so much about condi builds is that they refuse to do that, understand the threat and adapt accordingly.

Or perhaps your build and playstyle is particularly susceptible to conditions.

The point is genius that bunkers are MEANT to survive a 1v1 indefinitely and hold a 1v2 or more for a significant amount of time to deny a point. Traditional bunker bulids are just being destroyed by condi damage builds.

You asked what should a team do if they opposing team has 3 bunkers and 2 dps. Easy win the match. It is shown in several matches (my experience) and through several streams that teams should have a max of 2 bunkers. So stacking 3 bunkers starts to hurt the teams chances of winning. Right now however stacking necros or other condi builds is NOT hurting a teams chances of winning. Add a spirit ranger into the mix and everyone on the team starts doing burning damage whether they are traited for it or not.

jportell.2197:

@ The Boz Citation http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bunker

“A good bunker build can easily hold 1-2 players without dying until their team comes back to assist. Bunker builds are designed for survivability, to be able to remain in the area of the capture point, and so denying the opposition starting the capture timer”

“until their team comes back to assist”

Which means a bunker should be able to live long enough for support to arrive without losing the point.

Not indefinitely.

Tenebrous.2451:

jportell.2197:

So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)

The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.

Then teams should run all bunker builds, right? I mean if they can’t loose 1v1, 2v2, etc. should be a breeze, right?

I may be stupid, but Bunkers are there to last longer than their opponents so help can arrive when they need it and the point is not taken. Which is exactly what your quote from the wiki says. It does not mean that they should not loose in 1v1.

And right now 1v1 a condi build can easily steam roll through the best of bunker builds. This isn’t okay.

Cogbyrn.7283:

jportell.2197:

@ The Boz Citation http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bunker

“A good bunker build can easily hold 1-2 players without dying until their team comes back to assist. Bunker builds are designed for survivability, to be able to remain in the area of the capture point, and so denying the opposition starting the capture timer”

“until their team comes back to assist”

Which means a bunker should be able to live long enough for support to arrive without losing the point.

Not indefinitely.

And in any 1v1 this may be indefinitely. Why have your team come help if you can keep someone there trying to kill you while you own the point knowing they won’t. In a 1v2 it becomes the determination of the bunker whether or not they need the help. If a bunker is 1v2 and not dying great. It is on the opposition to determine if it is worth their trouble to try and win a fight when they realize they can’t kill the bunker.

…and you continue to avoid the issue… Amazing.

The Boz.2038:

…and you continue to avoid the issue… Amazing.

Issue: Condition damage has no HARD COUNTER.
Everything else in this game has a HARD COUNTER.
Condition damage needs a HARD COUNTER.
Vitality is not a hard counter. And condition removal compared to condition application is grossly imbalanced. Condition removal may need brought down in some classes (NECROS) while upped in others (Warriors, engis, certain ranger builds, mesmers). In general though a huge issue is the class that is most responsible for the AOE condi spam also has the best defense against conditions. We could even go as far as saying that if we really want vitality to be considered the counter to conditions. Well necros got that down packed certain players have tested the exact amount that life force at full is and they got it to total around 60% of the players base health. So a necro that ups their life force can still do somewhat decent AOE condi damage while having the highest vitality in game. I find this to be grossly imbalanced other people do as well. Only necros that seem to be relishing in their god mode are the ones that refuse to acknowledge how stupidly out of control the condition spam meta is and how it lacks any real and meaningful HARD COUNTER.

Bottom line Condition damage needs a BETTER HARD COUNTER. As someone else has pointed out in this thread

Bunker>Burst
Condition Damage>Burst
Condition Damage>Bunker
Condition Damage>All.
See the problem here? Or are you still blinded by your own necros god mode (see the Boz’s thread stating Feedback on necromancer changes) This thread is nothing more than a kitten fest about how necros got so picked on because the stupidly OP dumbfire trait suffered a minor nerf which is just made up with the stacking of spirit rangers now.

Necros DO have counters.

- AR Elixir bomb Engies
- CC warriors

@jp

It looks like you did not catch my edit, so lets give it a try:

Put a condi cleanse on your bar and use it with some modicum of intelligence and bunker away. To be really pedantic, try looking at Melandru’s runes, and there is a sigil or two, and probably some traits that will help. You have to take condi as seriously as you take direct damage. You have to figure it into your build and take some tradeoffs for goodness sake.

The reason why people are whining so much about condi builds is that they refuse to do that, understand the threat and adapt accordingly.

Or perhaps your build and playstyle is particularly susceptible to conditions.

I would add there are combo fields (Light) that can help too, though I do not know if the mesmer has access to them off had.

Having looked at your build, Mantra of Resolve is a loser vs current state of things, no question about that, but other cleanses are better for other classes. Mesmers might not be able to bunker well vs condi’s now.

As I stated before cleansing abilities and traits need to be better and more accessible. An extra stat to add into the mix (think amulets) will just water down things.

Alkaholic.3875:

Necros DO have counters.

- AR Elixir bomb Engies
- CC warriors

Other Necros.

Tenebrous.2451:

@jp

It looks like you did not catch my edit, so lets give it a try:

Put a condi cleanse on your bar and use it with some modicum of intelligence and bunker away. To be really pedantic, try looking at Melandru’s runes, and there is a sigil or two, and probably some traits that will help. You have to take condi as seriously as you take direct damage. You have to figure it into your build and take some tradeoffs for goodness sake.

The reason why people are whining so much about condi builds is that they refuse to do that, understand the threat and adapt accordingly.

Or perhaps your build and playstyle is particularly susceptible to conditions.

I would add there are combo fields (Light) that can help too, though I do not know if the mesmer has access to them off had.

Having looked at your build, Mantra of Resolve is a looser vs current state of things, no question about that, but other cleanses are better.

I have actually shelved my mesmer because the majority of the mesmer community agrees THIS CLASS IS kittenED AGAINST ANY CONDITION BUILDS! Mantra of resolve is still the mesmers best bet against condi damage except for maybe iDisenchanter which sucks hard in a team fight.
I run an elixir bomb AR engi right now. Guess what it still is no better. And I do pack a condi cleanse (elixir C and the heal skill) . And Make use of the light field while my teams ele tornados (tons of cleansing bolts) or we have our warrior do his whirling axe. Mesmer has access to ONE light field and no real way to make use of it except for using the iWarden and even then getting that combo off is almost impossible.

And necros already try to claim that engis 25% HP trait is OP. And our response is to finally bring a kittening direct damage/burst class. And stop relying completely on condis to do their work. And AR is only a counter to necros if the necro has nothing but condition damage and terrible timing. It isn’t hard to recognize if an engi is likely to be packing this trait long before 25% just based off how they do their damage.
Really the idiocy of some people defending condition damage and its lack of a direct counter baffle me.

Alkaholic.3875:

Necros DO have counters.

- AR Elixir bomb Engies
- CC warriors

AR elixir bomb engis only survive a bit longer and if a necro has good timing the engi is screwed long before 25% health. So many others have also stated how easy it is for a necro to kite around and soft cc (cripple/chill) warriors.

jportell.2197:

Really the idiocy of some people defending condition damage and its lack of a direct counter baffle me.

People can disagree without being disagreeable. Just sayn.

I think you position is reasonable, just not sound given the way the game and PvP is.

Complete removal is as hard of a counter as I can think of. You can also dodge the application of conditions. Or block it, etc.

Telling people they’re idiots for defending condition damage doesn’t make your argument more compelling. I’m open to the idea that conditions are too strong, but no one has made a really compelling argument for it in my opinion, including myself.

I also consider the possibility that I might be wrong. Have you done that lately? Maybe you’re wrong, and conditions are fine. Given that scenario, what do you do?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Complete removal is as hard of a counter as I can think of. You can also dodge the application of conditions. Or block it, etc.

Telling people they’re idiots for defending condition damage doesn’t make your argument more compelling. I’m open to the idea that conditions are too strong, but no one has made a really compelling argument for it in my opinion, including myself.

I also consider the possibility that I might be wrong. Have you done that lately? Maybe you’re wrong, and conditions are fine. Given that scenario, what do you do?

Ease of application vs. difficulty of removal for several classes is showing that conditions aren’t fine. Also the complete lack of these classes in any competitive scene is showing that conditions are over powered. The transition of people that mained one class switching to another because they cannot keep up is a show that conditions are overpowered. The opinions of top players on the current state of the meta is showing that conditions are overpowered. In fact the ONLY people that seem to be defending the craziness of condition application are the ones that main the most guilty classes for the over the top condition damage. And the big difference between the current culprits (necros) from the former culprits (hgh Engis) is several

-Grenades very slow moving can actually be sidestepped obvious animation.
-Marks. All have the same animation and only recently are they somewhat counterable thanks to the much needed greater marks nerf.
-HGH engi heaviliy relies on boons such as might and fury to be effective.
-S/d thieves are the natural counter to that while necros conditions can be spiked up not to mention the ease at which they can tank several bursts thanks to the recent buff (yes I SAID BUFF!) to death shroud making necros counters much harder to get.
-Those are the big differences for why hgh engi while OP do not even come close to the ridiculousness of the condition spam that necros can dish out.

Necro conditions have this- unobvious animations. (certain attacks such as enfeebling blood may have cast times but the animation is nowhere near as obvious as say a mesmer lifting their GS high into the air giving everyone a big hint thakittens TIME TO DODGE! or a warrior doing a huge leap for their earthshaker)
Almost negligible effects (there is a well on the ground but is it well of suffering/power/darkness/corruption?) they all look the freaking same in a team fight.
Ease of application- necros can spit out damaging conditions and stack them up much easier than any other class.
However when classes build to counter them (I take runes of melandru, AR, and a condi cleanse) they still are not bringing enough to actually be a direct counter. This is an issue everything in this game should have a hard direct counter. Bunker builds have their counter when they start getting trained by more than one person it becomes increasingly harder to stay alive.

With AOE condi spam the more people in the fight the easier your job becomes because the more targets you are hitting and doing damage to especially DOTs on entire teams which start to become increasingly difficult to cleanse the more condition damage builds the opposing team has.

jportell.2197:

Issue: Condition damage has no HARD COUNTER.

Not even remotely true.
First off, the issue, the original question that you have been dodging, is the following:
If bunkers become effective vs conditions and were no longer countered by them, what possible counter could there be for teams that stacked them?
All your replies were relevant to the current meta, where bunkers are countered by condition builds. You avoided the issue by saying there is a counter, but the issue is “if there wasn’t a counter, what would happen?” Let me remind you, your stance is to remove the only counter bunker builds have right now.
And no, saying “they are countered in 2v1” is not an argument.

jportell.2197:

Vitality is not a hard counter. And condition removal compared to condition application is grossly imbalanced.

Stop saying that. Stop. Stop. We’ve been over this. Vitality isn’t supposed to be a hard counter. And condition removal is not imbalanced; speccing for cleansing and reduced condition duration will make you impervious to conditions. It will screw you over vs any other build, but it works. Hey, wait a minute! It’s almost as if building a bunker to be effective vs power damage will screw you over vs condition builds!
Amazing!

jportell.2197:

Condition removal may need brought down in some classes (NECROS) while upped in others (Warriors, engis, certain ranger builds, mesmers).

Doubt it. If you want removal, spec for it. If you don’t want removal, suffer the consequences.
Do some classes have somewhat less effective options? Sure. Tweaks could happen. But not anywhere close to the magnitude you are suggesting.

jportell.2197:

In general though a huge issue is the class that is most responsible for the AOE condi spam also has the best defense against conditions.

Oh look, the AoE argument again. I guess seven stacks of bleeding every 25 seconds is huge and constant AoE pressure now…

jportell.2197:

We could even go as far as saying that if we really want vitality to be considered the counter to conditions…

…we don’t.

jportell.2197:

Well necros got that down packed certain players have tested the exact amount that life force at full is and they got it to total around 60% of the players base health. So a necro that ups their life force can still do somewhat decent AOE condi damage while having the highest vitality in game.

Highest vitality and absolutely no access to protection, vigor, block, dodge, etc.

jportell.2197:

I find this to be grossly imbalanced other people do as well. Only necros that seem to be relishing in their god mode are the ones that refuse to acknowledge how stupidly out of control the condition spam meta is and how it lacks any real and meaningful HARD COUNTER.

You haven’t provided any argument other than “it’s OP” and “removal can’t keep up”. It isn’t, and it isn’t supposed to.

jportell.2197:

Bottom line Condition damage needs a BETTER HARD COUNTER.

No it doesn’t, it already has plenty. If you choose not to bring them, it’s your problem.

jportell.2197:

As someone else has pointed out in this thread

Bunker>Burst
Condition Damage>Burst
Condition Damage>Bunker
Condition Damage>All.

The situation is much more complicated than “bunker”, “burst”, “condition”. Saying something over and over and over again doesn’t make it true unless you back it up with actual proof.

jportell.2197:

See the problem here? Or are you still blinded by your own necros god mode (see the Boz’s thread stating Feedback on necromancer changes)

…what about that thread?
Also, thanks for the ad hominem.

jportell.2197:

This thread is nothing more than a kitten fest about how necros got so picked on because the stupidly OP dumbfire trait suffered a minor nerf which is just made up with the stacking of spirit rangers now.

Minor nerf = Reduced effectiveness by 50%. For a grandmaster trait. In a line that’s less than ideal for the build anyway.
Anycase, I guess spirit rangers are now OP as well, right? Never mind the fact that they have this one build, and it is easily hard countered by pressing TAB twice…

@ The Boz : I have stated SEVERAL and I mean several times that if bunkers become the hard counter the counter to teams that stacks bunkers is higher DPS. Stacking bunkers is and HAS BEEN a liability since the start. You may be able to keep a fight going indefinitely with stacked bunkers however if it is a neutral or a point that belongs to the other team the stacked bunkers aren’t doing anything to further the cause of the game.
Stacking bunkers will always be a bigger liability than stacking anything else because it is always necessary to to have more damaging people in your team than support. This is why you have never seen more than one or two bunkers on a team. They used to be able to hold people til the team arrived. Now they get steam rolled through conditions.

The actual proof for the overpoweredness of conditions is seeing that the “top” teams are doing more and more stacking of condition builds and that is what is winning the games for them.

So condition application from Necros could use tuning. Not conditions themselves.

That’s what I gathered. Also, I’ve mained a Warrior basically since release. And this thread is about condition damage. Should all condition damage be nerfed by some amount because one class might need to have their AoE application availability toned down? Is that balance?

I’m glad they didn’t tone down all direct damage because Thieves could Backstab for a lot of it.

Except that now that people have gotten wise to just how good condition damage is and how hard it is to counter. They are bringing condi warriors-Condi engis-condi rangers-condi necros. This is starting to push other classes out Mesmers-guards-eles specifically. They are stacking condi heavy builds across all classes and stacking AOE condis through warriors/rangers/necros is what is getting out of hand.

Guards and Eles can’t handle condis? What condition can Warriors bring that’s AoE? I’m blanking.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Guards and Eles can’t handle condis? What condition can Warriors bring that’s AoE? I’m blanking.

AOE burn that increases with adrenaline level and can cover the entire point with the most damaging condition in the game. And that isn’t even everything a warrior can do with a longbow. Then we have sword sword which now packs torment. Not AOE but still some ridiculous condition damage in that weapon set.

And guards and eles can’t handle condis when it is against an entire team that is stacked with nothing but condition classes.

Right now condition comp v. balanced comp.

Condition comp wins.

Yes, because all attacks that cause conditions are unblockable, undodgeable, unevadeable, unblindable, unaegisable, uninterruptible, they have no cast times or casting animations, and place a full stack of 25 bleeds with every hit…

jportell.2197:

Right now condition comp v. balanced comp.

Condition comp wins.

Untrue. Watch the qualifiers, start watching streams, etc. Teams with more than two condition classes lose consistently. Are you now claiming that two of anything is stacking it? Does this mean that all until now we were in a physical-is-op meta because everyone stacked physical damage?

The Boz.2038:

Yes, because all attacks that cause conditions are unblockable, undodgeable, unevadeable, unblindable, unaegisable, uninterruptible, they have no cast times or casting animations, and place a full stack of 25 bleeds with every hit…

Hyperbole right there. However avoiding burst punishes the burster. Avoiding the initial condition damage is of no consequence to the applier because another condition can quickly and easily be applied after the defender has tried mitigating the damage in several other ways.

jportell.2197:

The point is genius that bunkers are MEANT to survive a 1v1 indefinitely and hold a 1v2 or more for a significant amount of time to deny a point. Traditional bunker bulids are just being destroyed by condi damage builds.

Bunker will die in 1vs1 fight agains condis and agains direct dmg.
Condi classes were always good for taking guard/bunker down faster as burst classes.

jportell.2197:

Hyperbole right there. However avoiding burst punishes the burster. Avoiding the initial condition damage is of no consequence to the applier because another condition can quickly and easily be applied after the defender has tried mitigating the damage in several other ways.

Why, what you are saying is ridiculous! It is almost as if condition damage is made to win through time and attrition!

Also, obligatory SARCASM disclaimer, just in case.

The Boz.2038:

Yes, because all attacks that cause conditions are unblockable, undodgeable, unevadeable, unblindable, unaegisable, uninterruptible, they have no cast times or casting animations, and place a full stack of 25 bleeds with every hit…

jportell.2197:

Right now condition comp v. balanced comp.

Condition comp wins.

Untrue. Watch the qualifiers, start watching streams, etc. Teams with more than two condition classes lose consistently. Are you now claiming that two of anything is stacking it? Does this mean that all until now we were in a physical-is-op meta because everyone stacked physical damage?

before this people had a condi, a burster, two bunkers, and a roamer. They may have stacked 2 condi classes or 2 burster classes, or two bunkers. However until recently all comps had a fair chance of success. But now we are seeing teams that stack sometimes upto 3 necros then a spirit ranger and maybe a bunker, or an s/d thief. Right now these classes are having a very hard time fitting meaningfully into a team comp
-mesmer
-Warrior
-Ele
-guard

More often than not I will face teams that have absoluteley none of these.