Guild Wars 2

/15char forum issue

Morwath.9817:

choovanski.5462:

soldier amulet gets loads of play. soldiers reaper and engineer are still very common. both builds are significantly more tanky than that it marauders counterparts, without having that much more health. you notice high armour.

toughness does more than you think. obviously everyone will die to focus fire and stunlock, but in 2v2, 1v1 etc it can make a good deal of difference.

Common?
0 Soldier amulets were used in Pro League so far, both EU and NA… while only Final Form used Sentinel for Druids.

…if you don’t believe me, you can check all Pro League builds, just follow the link in my signature.

hadn’t seen the pro league yet. saw it a few times in previous tournaments, mostly on engi and reaper and I see it in unranked (the only queue we have) all the time.

I don’t run it myself, but a lot of reapers I know run soldiers greatsword. seems good enough for queue, but it seems like GS has left the competitive scene for necro.

mallyx is hard to deal with when you don’t have much condi clear, but having members of your team running AOE clear changes the whole situation. support is an important element of a team comp. sure, I know not everyone runs in teams but this is a team game expect it to be designed for team play.

Morwath.9817:

choovanski.5462:

Morwath.9817:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Morwath.9817:

All we need is toughness reducing condi damage.

Then what counters high Toughness?

CC and focused fire?
Especially since we lack high toughness and high vitality amulet, with exception of trollish Sentinel, which has no healing power or serious damage source.

no. CC does not counter armour, neither does power based damage. power based damage is actually countered by armour. the counter to toughness is obviously conditions, as they ignore armour.

also, you forgot about soldiers amulet.

Soldier and Sentinel got basicaly same stats… they are both rarely played in competitive matches.

And Power damage isn’t countered by Toughness at all, its just a bit less effective but not countered… you still can focus fire on high toughness targets with some co-ordinated CCs and they are melted in seconds.

Toughness nerf in 2013 made that if you were 1v2, your toughness is halve. This nerf come from the same kind of post OP is doing.

Counter to condi is not QQ on forum, but comping with cleanses.

Bunker guard, Shoutbow or DD ele was our counter before HoT.

Now they are dead and need to be replaced… many more shout builds open up, but not enough working great for spvp, sadly.

So, please stop QQ over condies and ASK that support builds got buff up.

I love those wild random kittens who pop out of nowhere, quote random post and call it QQ without even reading what actualy is discussed.

Morwath.9817:

I love those wild random kittens who pop out of nowhere, quote random post and call it QQ without even reading what actualy is discussed.

I was speaking about the OP QQ, not your facts.

Here is the QQ:

“Supreme.3164
The game is completely unplayable between mallyx/shiro and condi reaper the amount of condis spammed on you is outrageous at this point I suggest the dev to introduce more traits like diamond skin…or on a more serious note I think it’s be about time for Jon Peters to honour his promise from months ago where he recognized that:”

Jourdelune.7456:

Morwath.9817:

I love those wild random kittens who pop out of nowhere, quote random post and call it QQ without even reading what actualy is discussed.

I was speaking about the OP QQ, not your facts.

Here is the QQ:

“Supreme.3164
The game is completely unplayable between mallyx/shiro and condi reaper the amount of condis spammed on you is outrageous at this point I suggest the dev to introduce more traits like diamond skin…or on a more serious note I think it’s be about time for Jon Peters to honour his promise from months ago where he recognized that:”

Then why you quoted me, not OP? Makes no sense at all.

I just did want to clarify your fact:

“And Power damage isn’t countered by Toughness at all, "

It’s true, since toughness nerf.

You are right. I did just want to add more information. I guess my language barrier didn’t work out for me this time.

After playing 9k games (mid to high tier), it’s okay . I accept being wrongly named random after my first thousands game played.

There is a lot wrong with PvP at the moment, and the way conditions have been treated is one of them. They received a massive buff, but have no damage reduction like toughness for it. Condi cleansing is depends on what class you play on how much you you can clear and how quickly. The biggest issues with conditions is they can stack too high in PvP, quite a few aoe condition fields are far too large (leading to lazy game play), and to many skills giving multiple conditions often leaving things like immobilise too far down the line to be cleansed.

Morwath.9817:

NeXeD.3042:

I agree let’s make everyone invincible toughness tanks that apparently no longer need vitality to counter condi. Or condi clears.

Vitality doesn’t counter condi. It’s like saying Vitality counters power damage.

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

The argument about vit being a counter to condi damage would hold true olny if vit decreased duration/condi dmg. But it doesnt. Going by this logic anything with high vit should be doing fine vs condi builds.
Meanwhile devs decided to NOT add dire amulet to spvp – i wonder why?

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

I’m not arguing about power dude. I’m arguing about condi. Condi is directly affected by health pool, that’s a fact that I am trying to put across. If you want to argue against that fact, go ahead but let’s leave power out of this because that’s a whole different mathematical problem.

there are so many good options to cleanse condis en masse; it’s really not the conditions themselves that are good, it’s that certain builds that happen to use condition-dmg are very strong, but not because of the conditions.

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

I’m not arguing about power dude. I’m arguing about condi. Condi is directly affected by health pool, that’s a fact that I am trying to put across. If you want to argue against that fact, go ahead but let’s leave power out of this because that’s a whole different mathematical problem.

You’re arguing about damage. It’s obvious that Vitality affects TtK, but it doesn’t mean that it’s counter to anything aside from burst. What is more, I’ve (and not only I) pointed out that if we accept your logic as correct, then Vitality is counter to any form of damage.

Here’s a test I ask you all to do.

Grab your warrior and go with the traits of tactics defense strength or beserker and do NOT spec any traits. Just use all the minors due to them having zero input on damage. Unequip all sigils and runes.

Now grab a sword and auto attack a golem to death 2x using Soldiers Amulet 1st then Carrion 2nd.

What I found out is my warrior killed the heavy golem in 24 seconds using soldier and 17 seconds using carrion.

Now for giggles I ran a test using Maruaders and decided to run 3 of them with the results of TtK of 19secs, 18.65secs, and 18.05secs.

So after this I was intrigued and went to test the Zerker amulet which gave me 17.57 secs, 17.92 secs, and 16.88 secs

We finally see at zerker amulet power will barely overtake carrion if you get good rng. So I did the next logical thing you would do. I tested Viper Amulet and got 15.77, 15.37, and 15.77

Hrmm

/discuss

p.s. For those that don’t know the only condition that was ticking was bleeding. I chose warrior sword because it swings pretty fast to get the tests done quickly

Added Cele amulet to test and all 3 were 20.20-20.50 time frame

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

Ye more skills like DS, lets just plunge a large **** in reaper’s *, will be faster i guess.

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

Problem is when the condi amulet out performs all the power amulets. Only zerker was able to outperform carrion

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

The only thing that changed in the test was the amulets used thus changing the stats of the character. I chose swrd on warrior b/c its good the best physical + condi application out of all the MH weapons.

Remember this as well. Only bleed damage was used.

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

In general i think condi could use a rework. First lower it base dmg output and allow conditions to crit. That will force them to run precision. Second is to decrease condition duration across the board to force them to use expertise if they want to keep good condi dmg.

Result? If you olny stack condi dmg you will hit like wet noodle aka soldier. A viper in this case will have a good dps output while settler wont be able to kill a kitten. They have to choose just like power builds. Either dps or survival, not both. If thats is too hard then rework power so we can also go dealing insane damage while wearing cleric. Thats the olny fair way really.

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

NeXeD.3042:

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

Go ahead be my guest. I went with eliminating as many variables as possible.

Azukas.1426:

NeXeD.3042:

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

Go ahead be my guest. I went with eliminating as many variables as possible.

Eliminating variables is only good if it reduces bias in the experiment. Using sword for both is extremely …arbitrary…

Your team druid is bad healer if you die condi dmg.

But there are plenty of counters to condi dmg burst.

Like against IP, just never get hit by the engi a single time.

And don’t forget to dodge those hydromancy sigil procs when you play against a reaper. If you can’t spot their extremely telegraphed animation, always stay at range.

Junkpile.7439:

Your team druid is bad healer if you die condi dmg.

Druid has hard time against condi pressure, thats why I believe removal of Minstrel was dumb move.

I dunno about you guys but I actually check the end-of-match statistics, and my direct damage taken is pretty much always 4 to 5 times greater than my condition damage taken

Azukas.1426:

NeXeD.3042:

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

Go ahead be my guest. I went with eliminating as many variables as possible.

You also picked a weapon auto that has a low power coefficient. To be honest, I’m not sure if there are any weapons that have a damaging condition on the auto and have good Power coefficients. Maybe Reaper Greatsword with Deathly Chill? That’s the best I can come up with. That’s still a serious outlier, though, since condition builds don’t use the weapon and damaging Chill is an odd case to begin with.

Azukas.1426:

NeXeD.3042:

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

Go ahead be my guest. I went with eliminating as many variables as possible.

Seriously though, all you did is prove that, using auto attack with Warrior sword using no traits, you get the highest DPS out of Viper. That’s the only conclusion you can make from your test. You do not include any other information to draw any other conclusions.

Also, you try to claim Carrion isn’t a Power amulet, when it has +900 power. If you want to do some sort of raw condi test, you’d go with something like Rabid. Even then, you would have to try to factor in coefficients on the weapon you choose in particular. Then you’d have to try to make some argument about a real situation in-game with respect to condi application. Instead, you just stop at the fact that Viper’s had the lowest TTK on golems for the one attack on one weapon on one class with a non-build.

NeXeD.3042:

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

Just tested GS with Soldier Amulet on the heavy golem and it took 26 secs to kill it.

Maruader was 16.88, 21.15, and 18.25

Zerker was 19, 16.68, and 18.01

Yeah I think my test was more than adequate the 1st time around.

Your tests are so biased its unbelievable.

NeXeD.3042:

Your tests are so biased its unbelievable.

No its not. I did what you asked I tested GS on warrior using the power amulets.

Those are the results.

I’m sorry you don’t like them, but I did what you asked. In the end my point was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The best part is I changed to a more power based weapon to appease you, but never changed the damaging condition. Bleeds are by far the worst damaging condition in the game.

NeXeD.3042:

Your tests are so biased its unbelievable.

I’m no longer surprised, based on a few of his other posts elsewhere. The leaps in logic he is able to make are absolutely staggering.

Heck, I still don’t even know what his point is, but apparently it’s proven without a shadow of a doubt. No one could possibly refute him. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, because with Warrior sword autos vs Warrior greatsword autos, a hybrid weapon using hybrid stat distribution kills a golem faster than a power weapon with power stats.

Ergo, the game is too spammy with conditions, and conditions are too strong.

Azukas.1426:

NeXeD.3042:

Your tests are so biased its unbelievable.

No its not. I did what you asked I tested GS on warrior using the power amulets.

Those are the results.

I’m sorry you don’t like them, but I did what you asked. In the end my point was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The best part is I changed to a more power based weapon to appease you, but never changed the damaging condition. Bleeds are by far the worst damaging condition in the game.

/facepalm

1) You didn’t use a actual build, and therefore didn’t simulate a realistic situation.
2) You didn’t bother looking at the base damage on the abilities you used and didn’t account for it.
3) You used a abysmally small amount of trails. Power unlike condi has a RNG mechanic, and therefore needs a very large number of tests.

also what Cog said.

Ignoring his tests the fact it that sinister engi has highest dps otput ingame boosted futher with viper. Thats ofc a pve thing but still.

The game has three game modes and a wide varity of player skill….
It is hard to impossible for the less skilled to get a balance, when there are powerful strikes, that can be outplayed. The casual won´t outplay and dies.. the pro wonders why. I see it myself and i am an average player. I read the complains about reapers and dragon hunters. I see why but i don´t encounter this problems. I have much fun killing the reapers and kiting the dragon hunters. I need more training to get by a shield. I enconter more and more shield users bunkering and don´t have the timing i need till now. But i am shure there will be the moment i get more of them down with training.
So the game is very much balanced about L2P. But this is obvious a problem for casuals.

Wolfric.9380:

The game has three game modes and a wide varity of player skill….
It is hard to impossible for the less skilled to get a balance, when there are powerful strikes, that can be outplayed. The casual won´t outplay and dies.. the pro wonders why. I see it myself and i am an average player. I read the complains about reapers and dragon hunters. I see why but i don´t encounter this problems. I have much fun killing the reapers and kiting the dragon hunters. I need more training to get by a shield. I enconter more and more shield users bunkering and don´t have the timing i need till now. But i am shure there will be the moment i get more of them down with training.
So the game is very much balanced about L2P. But this is obvious a problem for casuals.

This might be of interest to you.

Part of the problem with conditions in my opinion is the delayed feedback from being hit by the skill. For example warrior’s pin down. People do not connect this skill as being a huge threat outside its immobilize. But it does 9k damage over time from a properly setup condi warrior build.

I don’t think for a lot of people get the idea that they need to dodge pin down. They may think- I have to dodge or I’ll be immobilized. Instead of- I have to dodge pin down or die.

Compare that to kill shot where you have the immediate feedback of that huge hit.

I don’t think it’s a fixable problem.

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

NeXeD.3042:

Your tests are so biased its unbelievable.

No its not. I did what you asked I tested GS on warrior using the power amulets.

Those are the results.

I’m sorry you don’t like them, but I did what you asked. In the end my point was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The best part is I changed to a more power based weapon to appease you, but never changed the damaging condition. Bleeds are by far the worst damaging condition in the game.

/facepalm

1) You didn’t use a actual build, and therefore didn’t simulate a realistic situation.
2) You didn’t bother looking at the base damage on the abilities you used and didn’t account for it.
3) You used a abysmally small amount of trails. Power unlike condi has a RNG mechanic, and therefore needs a very large number of tests.

also what Cog said.

OP stated that condi damage is out of control vs power damage. I decided to strip down all extras and straight up test condi damage vs power using the same skills and amulets used in pvp today.

There are many variables in PvP so what you have to do is try to strip them down and create equal situations besides amulets when testing. I also was only able to test bleeding only, and would have enjoyed adding extra condis to the test.

Draygo.9473:

Part of the problem with conditions in my opinion is the delayed feedback from being hit by the skill. For example warrior’s pin down. People do not connect this skill as being a huge threat outside its immobilize. But it does 9k damage over time from a properly setup condi warrior build.

I don’t think for a lot of people get the idea that they need to dodge pin down. They may think- I have to dodge or I’ll be immobilized. Instead of- I have to dodge pin down or die.

Compare that to kill shot where you have the immediate feedback of that huge hit.

I don’t think it’s a fixable problem.

That’s a good point. People react quickly to losing large chunks of life in an instant but people just let condis roll onto them without a second though… I’ve noticed between power and condi reaper when I use Soul Spirial; if I’m power people run quickly because they’re losing a lot of life fast. But a lot of times if I used it as condi, people will just face tank it… Not realizing they’re going to be taking A LOT more damage from it in just a moment lol.

A lot of players don’t pay attention to their debuffs, I’ve noticed.

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

I’m not arguing about power dude. I’m arguing about condi. Condi is directly affected by health pool, that’s a fact that I am trying to put across. If you want to argue against that fact, go ahead but let’s leave power out of this because that’s a whole different mathematical problem.

You’re arguing about damage. It’s obvious that Vitality affects TtK, but it doesn’t mean that it’s counter to anything aside from burst. What is more, I’ve (and not only I) pointed out that if we accept your logic as correct, then Vitality is counter to any form of damage.

Yes.
Direct damage is affected by both toughness and health, Condis are only affected by vitality.

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

I’m not arguing about power dude. I’m arguing about condi. Condi is directly affected by health pool, that’s a fact that I am trying to put across. If you want to argue against that fact, go ahead but let’s leave power out of this because that’s a whole different mathematical problem.

You’re arguing about damage. It’s obvious that Vitality affects TtK, but it doesn’t mean that it’s counter to anything aside from burst. What is more, I’ve (and not only I) pointed out that if we accept your logic as correct, then Vitality is counter to any form of damage.

Yes.
Direct damage is affected by both toughness and health, Condis are only affected by vitality.

Condis are not affected by vitality. They do the same damage regardless of how much health you have. You can argue that vitality makes condis take longer to kill you, but that’s what it does for everything. Conversely, power damage is directly affected by toughness.

And condition damage has more mitigation options. You can remove conditions through active and passive play. CoP a pin down and you just prevented 9k damage.

Toughness mitigates physical damage, cleanse mitigates condition damage.

Condition damage is mitigated by cleanse.

Direct damage is mitigated by toughness.

Draygo.9473:

Condition damage is mitigated by cleanse.

Direct damage is mitigated by toughness.

Ugh, I’m tired of seeing this.

Condition damage is mitigated by cleanse, and -condi duration bonuses. Traits like Adaptive Armor, Reaper’s Onslaught, and runes are Condi damage mitigation.

Condition damage is negated by Diamond Skin (above 90%), Berserker Stance, and Resistance. Skills that block attacks aren’t being included since they block the application of applying conditions and direct damage.

Direct damage has enough mitigation and negation techniques that I really don’t feel like getting into it.

Mcrocha.3891:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

I’m not arguing about power dude. I’m arguing about condi. Condi is directly affected by health pool, that’s a fact that I am trying to put across. If you want to argue against that fact, go ahead but let’s leave power out of this because that’s a whole different mathematical problem.

You’re arguing about damage. It’s obvious that Vitality affects TtK, but it doesn’t mean that it’s counter to anything aside from burst. What is more, I’ve (and not only I) pointed out that if we accept your logic as correct, then Vitality is counter to any form of damage.

Yes.
Direct damage is affected by both toughness and health, Condis are only affected by vitality.

Condis are not affected by vitality. They do the same damage regardless of how much health you have. You can argue that vitality makes condis take longer to kill you, but that’s what it does for everything. Conversely, power damage is directly affected by toughness.

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.