Toughness is Broken
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This is honestly a good idea imo. Toughness really is a useless stat to take at any point because no matter how much armor you have you will still be burst down within seconds.
LOL
We have considered toughness as pretty much the most important stat in the game for some time. It obviously depends on what youre playing but toughness should not be made any more effective than it is.
In PvP? Are you serious? Looking at peoples builds its mostly anything that provides vital unless its a full glass build. Toughness is rarely chosen or even needed by many classes. Look at how the Meta is right now it shows how underused any form of toughness is.
And why do you think that is? All the amulets that had good stat combinations with toughness are gone. That hard to understand? They needed to be removed. Now if you could be kitten d to even look at what youre talking about before you say something, you would scroll down this page https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Build and see that every single one of the runes and amulets that were removed had toughness in them. Toughness was something that should never be brought to that level again as it was creating incredibly stale gameplay.
One could even argue to nerf toughness as a stat but since the amulets are not in the game anymore its not needed, at least in pvp. Toughness is fine as it is as long as they keep giving us badly statted toughness amulets or ones with low toughness like wanderer and paladins although paladins is almost going too far with it already.
This is honestly a good idea imo. Toughness really is a useless stat to take at any point because no matter how much armor you have you will still be burst down within seconds.
LOL
We have considered toughness as pretty much the most important stat in the game for some time. It obviously depends on what youre playing but toughness should not be made any more effective than it is.
In PvP? Are you serious? Looking at peoples builds its mostly anything that provides vital unless its a full glass build. Toughness is rarely chosen or even needed by many classes. Look at how the Meta is right now it shows how underused any form of toughness is.
And why do you think that is? All the amulets that had good stat combinations with toughness are gone. That hard to understand? They needed to be removed. Now if you could be kitten d to even look at what youre talking about before you say something, you would scroll down this page https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Build and see that every single one of the runes and amulets that were removed had toughness in them. Toughness was something that should never be brought to that level again as it was creating incredibly stale gameplay.
One could even argue to nerf toughness as a stat but since the amulets are not in the game anymore its not needed, at least in pvp. Toughness is fine as it is as long as they keep giving us badly stated toughness amulets or ones with low toughness like wanderer and paladins although paladins is almost going too far with it already.
Yes, because the removal of those amulets surely made the pvp 100% fail proof. With the powercreep and overtuned damage this game literally has dropped to an all time low because the only counterplay really is having a class with large amounts of evades, blocks, invulns and condition clears. Even with 1200 toughness with the current amulets you are still basically glass regardless if these amulets made a comeback or not.
Toughness is not fine as it is by itself, it doesnt serve much of a purpose when players cant build to withstand more damage without relying on passives procs to do most of the work for them. Even worse now since basically every attack applies a condition in this game.
This is honestly a good idea imo. Toughness really is a useless stat to take at any point because no matter how much armor you have you will still be burst down within seconds.
LOL
We have considered toughness as pretty much the most important stat in the game for some time. It obviously depends on what youre playing but toughness should not be made any more effective than it is.
In PvP? Are you serious? Looking at peoples builds its mostly anything that provides vital unless its a full glass build. Toughness is rarely chosen or even needed by many classes. Look at how the Meta is right now it shows how underused any form of toughness is.
And why do you think that is? All the amulets that had good stat combinations with toughness are gone. That hard to understand? They needed to be removed. Now if you could be kitten d to even look at what youre talking about before you say something, you would scroll down this page https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Build and see that every single one of the runes and amulets that were removed had toughness in them. Toughness was something that should never be brought to that level again as it was creating incredibly stale gameplay.
One could even argue to nerf toughness as a stat but since the amulets are not in the game anymore its not needed, at least in pvp. Toughness is fine as it is as long as they keep giving us badly stated toughness amulets or ones with low toughness like wanderer and paladins although paladins is almost going too far with it already.
Yes, because the removal of those amulets surely made the pvp 100% fail proof. With the powercreep and overtuned damage this game literally has dropped to an all time low because the only counterplay really is having a class with large amounts of evades, blocks, invulns and condition clears. Even with 1200 toughness with the current amulets you are still basically glass regardless if these amulets made a comeback or not.
Toughness is not fine as it is by itself, it doesnt serve much of a purpose when players cant build to withstand more damage without relying on passives procs to do most of the work for them. Even worse now since basically every attack applies a condition in this game.
Do you remember minstrel druid? kitten i can remember how fast it died how glassy it was and how it got completely deleted in each game. Oh. Wait. It was near unkillable without moa. Youre saying people need to rely on passive procs to do the most work for them. What do you need to do with toughness apart from putting it in your build? Its passive.
Also the game has dropped to an all time low in pvp because there have been no tournaments for a long time, saying its because of the state of the meta would be ridiculous. The game had a much bigger playerbase in pro league season 1 when the meta was in one of the worst states its ever been in. Why? Tournaments.
I dont understand what fail proof means to you because what it seems to mean to you is if you die in under 10 seconds while being afk against another player the game balance has failed. Im not saying anywhere that doing the removal of all those amulets was the perfect route to go with when only thinking about further balancing and diversity but even if it might be too big a thing to hammer in your head things are not always this simple. Anet did not have time to come up with and test a working toughness nerf that would allow the amulets to stay in so they made the best decision at the time. Im also not saying that the game would be perfect currently with the amulets out but it sure as hell is much better.
(edited by Forsty.7968)
Toughness is fine. 33% damage reduction is more valuable than 75% increase in base health.
Why? Because this thing called healing exists. The less damage you take, the less healing you need to stay alive. With vitality however you are still taking the full value of incoming damage which means you have to receiving healing on a 1:1 ratio to incoming damage, which is impossible because damage in this game way out scales healing.
Vitality is only really good against spikes, it’s terrible in any form of protracted fight.
Vitality is also good against condition damage, while Toughness does nothing. I think Vitality is okay, I think Toughness and Healing Power are both generally underpowered.
I think it’s a bad system. I feel like toughness should be reworked so that it reduces damage by a fixed amount rather than by a percentage, so that minor hits can easily be shrugged off while heavy hits still need to be dodged.
Well. Toughnes alone might only save you a second more, healing power alone feels weak but both combined make for strong survivability … It did lead to bunker builds that could stall 1:2.
(edited by Wolfric.9380)
-snip-
No, I dont remember Minstrel druid, because once HoT beta hit, I already saw what direction this game was going and jumped off ship.
Im saying people actually do have to rely on them because thats the system we have now, its full of them. Look at the warrior, basically everything is passive trigger and their one of the ones who can actually take toughness while also being viable because of so many passive defenses they have ontop of being more tanky.
PvP was dropping long before, even teams that were going for Esports explained why they didnt find Gw2 pvp enjoyable.Balance was out of wack but they shouldnt be balancing the game around amulets in the first place. They should have been balancing it on class skills and traits. Bunker was healthy for the game, it allowed for team synergy, roles and even class diversity. But they way they implemented it just wasn’t the best.
Game honestly is a lot worse with them gone for those reasons, Its now focused around burst damage, less then 5 second fights unless loads of damage negation is available. Its not fun to watch, its really not fun to play imo. The quick TTK just makes for “eh ok”, moments instead of learning what to do against certain abilities and skills like the old days where you could actually understand what was going on in fights more then now.
Forget the formulas, I tested it. The chieftain is a great test because he always opens with the same hit which apparently cannot crit.
Test done on Ranger:
Upping my toughness by 1200 points decreased damage by 33%. Upping my vitality by 1200 points increased health pool by 75%. Considering how bursty this game is, toughness desperately needs a redesign and to apply (perhaps especially) to condition damage.Enough said.
Toughness vs power is fine as is. If it negated more damage then what do you thing would happen when you stack protection on top? Unkillable bunkers again.
As for condi damage….I’d rather a rework to condi in general
Dito 100%
Bunker meta worst meta.
Wiggin/LittleEnder/XeroCool/Filthydirtyrotten/MizDemeanor/EnderThaXenocide/ShadowOfWiggin-
Maguuma & A Few alts on other NA/EU servers
Maguuma & A Few alts on other NA/EU servers
-snip-
No, I dont remember Minstrel druid, because once HoT beta hit, I already saw what direction this game was going and jumped off ship.
Im saying people actually do have to rely on them because thats the system we have now, its full of them. Look at the warrior, basically everything is passive trigger and their one of the ones who can actually take toughness while also being viable because of so many passive defenses they have ontop of being more tanky.
PvP was dropping long before, even teams that were going for Esports explained why they didnt find Gw2 pvp enjoyable.Balance was out of wack but they shouldnt be balancing the game around amulets in the first place. They should have been balancing it on class skills and traits. Bunker was healthy for the game, it allowed for team synergy, roles and even class diversity. But they way they implemented it just wasn’t the best.
Game honestly is a lot worse with them gone for those reasons, Its now focused around burst damage, less then 5 second fights unless loads of damage negation is available. Its not fun to watch, its really not fun to play imo. The quick TTK just makes for “eh ok”, moments instead of learning what to do against certain abilities and skills like the old days where you could actually understand what was going on in fights more then now.
Okay so you dont even know what the bunker meta is. “Bunker was healthy for the game, it allowed for team synergy, roles and even class diversity”. Straight up making toughness a stronger stat will not do any of what you said and would be incredibly bad for the game. Youre saying balancing the pvp around amulets is not what they should do but youre advocating for a buff for a stat that comes off of amulets mainly. If you think the game is centered around burst damage at the moment you must not have played the game for very long. Anyway im done with this, you dont know what happened in the past of the game so it doesnt make sense to talk about something you dont understand.
Yes because me not being around 1 meta means I don’t know about bunker. Yep that make sense. Anet kitten the game up when it powercreeped and buffed every classes damage, but they did nothing for people who like to play defensively besides giving them classes with a abnormal amount of blocks, evades, invuln frames, etc.
Yes they SHOULD have balanced pvp around skills and traits, they didn’t and screwed up the system and now defensive builds are suffering, which is why NOW they actually do need to buff the stat to bring out its true function. Adding in condition duration reduction or even condition damage reduction to toughness will help reduce the TTK for players who do choose to run toughness, its whole point for existence.
And yes the game is most definitely centered around burst damage, anyone can see that.
Yes because me not being around 1 meta means I don’t know about bunker. Yep that make sense. Anet kitten the game up when it powercreeped and buffed every classes damage, but they did nothing for people who like to play defensively besides giving them classes with a abnormal amount of blocks, evades, invuln frames, etc.
They added just as much defensive power creep as offensive, maybe even more. They ended up having to remove all those defensive amulets for a reason.
Yes because me not being around 1 meta means I don’t know about bunker. Yep that make sense. Anet kitten the game up when it powercreeped and buffed every classes damage, but they did nothing for people who like to play defensively besides giving them classes with a abnormal amount of blocks, evades, invuln frames, etc.
They added just as much defensive power creep as offensive, maybe even more. They ended up having to remove all those defensive amulets for a reason.
Yeah i’ve been noticing. Guardians, Warriors, Mesmer running around with massive amounts of damage negation even while being specced for damage :/ Should have seriously toned elite specs first before resorting to removing the amulets still. Wasnt a amulet problem, but a class design issue.
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