Guild Wars 2

Lux.7169:

I’m in-game now. Let’s roll.

Much chest beating ..

Trigr.6481:

The fact that you’re relying on the leaderboards as a show of skill makes me cry on in the inside chaith. We know it’s broken, you know it’s broken. Just walk away from the idea. If this tournament has any potential of not becoming a kitten storm, then they need to have qualifiers. Simple as that. And if your argument is going to be something around the lines of, “well we can’t have qualifiers because we don’t have the people to manage it.” Then you shouldn’t have even announced a tournament to begin with. If you can’t do it right, then don’t even try.

Countless

“If you can’t do it right, then don’t even try.”

Mistakes in setting expectations have been made.

And if this totally unplanned issue isn’t able to be worked around in the time we have left? Maybe a little realism is needed, in that case. Instead of time machining back to the announcement date, and setting the expectations properly, maybe we should start considering the option that is time-efficient and effective at the same time.

And of course the ideal situation of doing a qualifier 1 round elimination tournament sounds good, because you seem to be not understanding that Blu might possibly be forced take an unpopular stance, and limit the tournament size.

I would have the same opinion as you, Countless. If I was operating under the same assumptions as you. Qualifiers for all will be more fair. Qualifiers for all might already be off the table! So, if it can be done, it will be done. So I’m instead trying to generate plan B, that isn’t operating under ideal circumstances. Which is a much harder question to answer.

Regarding the leaderboard method I proposed, if you think about what it’s good for: (Accurately portraying skill if we took a current snapshot isn’t one of them, FYI, don’t have to preach to the choir)

• Identifying players that have never set foot in PvP. The leaderboards are really good at identifying this.

Leaderboards are volatile, and people don’t give a crap. It’s true. But it’s a adequate tool if the tournament participants have a reason to give a crap, and reach their proper MMR, and smooth out their volatility.

Chaith.8256:

Lux.7169:

I’m in-game now. Let’s roll.

Hey, I’m 50g richer now. I am a poor pvp player so I’ll take what I can. I actually had to borrow 47g from someone to bet XD

Lux.7169:

Chaith.8256:

Lux.7169:

I’m in-game now. Let’s roll.

Hey, I’m 50g richer now. I am a poor pvp player so I’ll take what I can. I actually had to borrow 47g from someone to bet XD

ya no thieves were on so i just fought him on my guard where he pretty much sat in SB and casted thieves guild for most of the fight

Darek.1836:

Lux.7169:

Chaith.8256:

Lux.7169:

I’m in-game now. Let’s roll.

Hey, I’m 50g richer now. I am a poor pvp player so I’ll take what I can. I actually had to borrow 47g from someone to bet XD

ya no thieves were on so i just fought him on my guard where he pretty much sat in SB and casted thieves guild for most of the fight

Yeah just let me know when these thieves are on for some money matches.

Lux.7169:

Darek.1836:

Lux.7169:

Chaith.8256:

Lux.7169:

I’m in-game now. Let’s roll.

Hey, I’m 50g richer now. I am a poor pvp player so I’ll take what I can. I actually had to borrow 47g from someone to bet XD

ya no thieves were on so i just fought him on my guard where he pretty much sat in SB and casted thieves guild for most of the fight

Yeah just let me know when these thieves are on for some money matches.

You two are disgracing this thread… fyi.

I agree with Five Gauge, can yall keep the trash talking out of this thread? We look like a really crappy community when you do that…

Blu, Ive emailed you a possible solution to this problem if youre interested

Zietlogik.6208:

Hold the entire tourny on Skyhammer….nuff said

5v5 decap engis only.

Why don’t you guys just seed the teams like GF, Ngi etc and ensure they don’t fight each other in prelims until the top 16 or w/e.

Then you can have prelims where everyone gets a chance.

fishball.7204:

Why don’t you guys just seed the teams like GF, Ngi etc and ensure they don’t fight each other in prelims until the top 16 or w/e.

Then you can have prelims where everyone gets a chance.

Why would they not fight each other? Who is to say that GF or Ngi are better than SW or June? I doubt they are. In fact, it would be most fair if they would fight each other as early in the tournament as possible instead of easily winning against all the newbies and get to finals easily. Why would they have a special treatment?

Rezz.8019:

fishball.7204:

Why don’t you guys just seed the teams like GF, Ngi etc and ensure they don’t fight each other in prelims until the top 16 or w/e.

Then you can have prelims where everyone gets a chance.

Why would they not fight each other? Who is to say that GF or Ngi are better than SW or June? I doubt they are. In fact, it would be most fair if they would fight each other as early in the tournament as possible instead of easily winning against all the newbies and get to finals easily. Why would they have a special treatment?

It’s like march madness. Teams are given a seeding based on their perceived rank/skill/etc. The (few) known pvp teams that have already proven they have skill should have a higher seed over unknown players. This way known pvp teams will start off facing pve/wvw people and if they upset them – that’d be an entertaining match. Plus being the “underdog” takes away some pressure to perform for the lower seeds. It’s not fair for top pvp teams to play each other right at the start because that means some possibly “lower” skilled players will coast on to prizes when in reality it was just a lucky randomized bracket. Idk how to determine rankings other than player comments or past knowledge of players/teams so that’s to be decided.

Rezz.8019:

fishball.7204:

Why don’t you guys just seed the teams like GF, Ngi etc and ensure they don’t fight each other in prelims until the top 16 or w/e.

Then you can have prelims where everyone gets a chance.

Why would they not fight each other? Who is to say that GF or Ngi are better than SW or June? I doubt they are. In fact, it would be most fair if they would fight each other as early in the tournament as possible instead of easily winning against all the newbies and get to finals easily. Why would they have a special treatment?

I think your heart will be broken if you put those teams against us first round.

Rezz.8019:

fishball.7204:

Why don’t you guys just seed the teams like GF, Ngi etc and ensure they don’t fight each other in prelims until the top 16 or w/e.

Then you can have prelims where everyone gets a chance.

Why would they not fight each other? Who is to say that GF or Ngi are better than SW or June? I doubt they are. In fact, it would be most fair if they would fight each other as early in the tournament as possible instead of easily winning against all the newbies and get to finals easily. Why would they have a special treatment?

Were you dropped as a child? If the top teams play each other during the preliminaries and end up eliminating each other, we would end up having to watch a bunch of pveers getting stomped in the semi finals. GF and such have already proven to the pvp community that they are the top tier teams through various tournaments. And since you’re firing the shots, I would like to point out (as much as I love karmy and co. from SW) that I have beaten both June and SW core premades with pugs during the offpeak hours.

Zietlogik.6208:

Hold the entire tourny on Skyhammer….nuff said

I wholeheartedly support this idea. It is the best pvp map to date, after all.

Also ITT: last of pvp kittens throwing hisses at each other to conjure an illusion of ‘drama’. Sou kyute. May I pat you till you purr?

Rezz.8019:

I wish they would just put some qualification round like a weekend before the tournament starts. They could match teams based on their skill level so it’s as fair as possible. Winners get to play in the main tourney and losers don’t. And of course, couple selected teams would not need to go through this but they would be in right away.

Considering there is no reward for 2nd and 3rd place, or a reward for scoring top 10/15/20, there also isn’t any real need or benefit to hand out free entrance to known teams (minus some extra psychological effect since newcomers are less likely to get steam-rolled at the very start). War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, vD, rawr etc. all had to fight their way up the same way other entrants did, after all.

Rezz.8019:

Also the tourney itself I hope that first round it won’t be all good team vs bad team.

Long story made short. Given the reasons listed above, they won’t be losing out on anything anyway.

Moreover, I dislike the promotion manner of the tournament – just because everyone is given a chance doesn’t mean everyone actually stands one. Not in this kind of tournament, at least.
You’d need different divisions (e.g. from platinum to bronze) with each team playing in the division most appropriate for their skill level, so the crème-de-la-crème remnants of pvp population can fight it out in the top division, while less exped pvpers or pve’ers are keepin’ busy in the lower divisions.

KarlaGrey.5903:

War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, vD, rawr etc. all had to fight their way up the same way other entrants did (by fighting oponents of similar skill), after all.

That’s fine. But for example: when you have War Machine VS. Last Pride in the first round of preliminaries, Last Pride VS. Idiot Savants in the second round of preliminaries, Idiot Savants VS. vD in the third round of preliminaries, ETC, there is a good chance that:

• The finals will be a world class team, vs. an opponent who has no hope in keeping up.

• Many teams who deserved to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th, were potentially eliminated early on by the 1st place team – meanwhile, people that are weaker would fill those positions, because their brackets were ridiculously devoid of good teams.

Seeding the brackets so the veteran teams are evenly spread out is definitely a positive to the quality of the tournament.

Such situations were extremely rare, and usually only happened during the last few years of GW life span, when the pvp population has plummeted to such an extend (due to GW2 release) that ‘baddies’ can make it all the way to finals through luck.
Ok, that does sort of remind one of the situation on GW2.

Also, fighting opponents of similar skill mattered more on GW, because capes were awarded to top 16, not just to tournament winners.

Chaith.8256:

KarlaGrey.5903:

War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, vD, rawr etc. all had to fight their way up the same way other entrants did (by fighting oponents of similar skill), after all.

That’s fine. But for example: when you have War Machine VS. Last Pride in the first round of preliminaries, Last Pride VS. Idiot Savants in the second round of preliminaries, Idiot Savants VS. vD in the third round of preliminaries, ETC, there is a good chance that:

• The finals will be a world class team, vs. an opponent who has no hope in keeping up.

• Many teams who deserved to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th, were potentially eliminated early on by the 1st place team – meanwhile, people that are weaker would fill those positions, because their brackets were ridiculously devoid of good teams.

Seeding the brackets so the veteran teams are evenly spread out is definitely a positive to the quality of the tournament.

If they lost in first or second round then they did not deserve to be 2nd or 5th or whatever. And so what if first round would be 2 really good teams while second round might be a really good team against a pretty decent-average team? Does it matter? Why force only finals to be interesting when first rounds could be interesting too. And whoever gets that far to finals or semifinals will definitely not be a terrible team and they will put up a good fight.

It’s honestly not a problem as long as the # of exped pvp teams matched up against each other is relatively low, so some are left to filter out the weed.
Organisation-wise, however, the tournament seems to have got the short end of the stick.

Rezz.8019:

Chaith.8256:

KarlaGrey.5903:

War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, vD, rawr etc. all had to fight their way up the same way other entrants did (by fighting oponents of similar skill), after all.

That’s fine. But for example: when you have War Machine VS. Last Pride in the first round of preliminaries, Last Pride VS. Idiot Savants in the second round of preliminaries, Idiot Savants VS. vD in the third round of preliminaries, ETC, there is a good chance that:

• The finals will be a world class team, vs. an opponent who has no hope in keeping up.

• Many teams who deserved to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th, were potentially eliminated early on by the 1st place team – meanwhile, people that are weaker would fill those positions, because their brackets were ridiculously devoid of good teams.

Seeding the brackets so the veteran teams are evenly spread out is definitely a positive to the quality of the tournament.

If they lost in first or second round then they did not deserve to be 2nd or 5th or whatever. And so what if first round would be 2 really good teams while second round might be a really good team against a pretty decent-average team? Does it matter? Why force only finals to be interesting when first rounds could be interesting too. And whoever gets that far to finals or semifinals will definitely not be a terrible team and they will put up a good fight.

Because the point of a tournament is to have results that accurately display the skill of that team. The higher quality of tournament, the more accurately the placings of the tournament correlate to the real performance of the teams.

If you say that the second best team in GW2 doesn’t deserve to place around 2nd place, if based on their performance, they would beat every team but one, I disagree.

Most players promoting a volatile leaderboard keep on forgeting that “All characters are on even footing in both kinds of competitive play.” This is how PvP is presented in Guild Wars 2 main website. Please do not change or forget that.

Some teams were in leaderboard in the past and now they return, some teams were not in the past but are now, some just formed from SoloQ, some just formed from WvW or even PvE. It does not matter, because all should have an equal chance on this tournament. “We’ll open sign-ups to everyone” and everyone should have an equal chance to be in the selection of the few teams that get to participate.

It is not fair to say that someone is worthy, and someone is not worthy, simply because we want to see an entertaining show in the finals and semifinals. This event is not for viewers watching a show on computer, it is not for youtube or twitch_tv entertainment, it is not for some international gamescom campaign, it is for the players playing and struggling to win a legendary item ingame. All players and all teams should be equal as we all play the same game for something that makes us happy (gold, gems, items, popularity, entertainment, friendship, etc).

If you enjoy watching, there will be fun in the end, because all teams will struggle to win the legendary items in this competition.

I recommend lottery, or random choosing of the teams to participate, nobody being favored here. All players are equal, please keep that in mind when you play this game.

Chaith.8256:

The higher quality of tournament, the more accurately the placings of the tournament correlate to the real performance of the teams.

In an ideal situation, perhaps. But that would also make it very predictable to anyone half-knowledgeable about the pvp playerbase concerned, and possibly rather boring to watch, because everyone would know the outcome before the start.

Just checking, but did you guys know that pretty much every GW2 Tournament thus far – except those explicitly randomized on stream – are seeded based on the admin’s perception of the team’s past performance?

In Elimination (which this tournament will be), and in match ups that lack divisions (Bronze, Silver, Gold), spreading the top teams is par for the course..

If teams are relatively equal in skill, and/or a Round Robin gametype, where every team plays every team, (as opposed to elimination) is chosen, then randomization of the brackets is acceptable.

Using the leaderboards, or ‘season end’ rankings, as it is known in most games, is usually the best way to create fair brackets so one bracket doesn’t contain all the super tough teams.

I think none of the teams should have guaranteed spot in the tournament, no matter how many cups, spoons, forks they won. If they are as good as they are supposed to be then they should have no trouble climbing up the brackets. If you wanna do a tournament like this do it properly. Every team that applied gets to play or the qualification terms needed to enter the tournament should be established way before opening the sign-ups. To do it any other way right now it’s just not fair.

Chaith.8256:

Just checking, but did you guys know that pretty much every GW2 Tournament thus far – except those explicitly randomized on stream – are seeded based on the admin’s perception of the team’s past performance?

In Elimination (which this tournament will be), and in match ups that lack divisions (Bronze, Silver, Gold), spreading the top teams is par for the course..

If teams are relatively equal in skill, and/or a Round Robin gametype, where every team plays every team, (as opposed to elimination) is chosen, then randomization of the brackets is acceptable.

Using the leaderboards, or ‘season end’ rankings, as it is known in most games, is usually the best way to create fair brackets so one bracket doesn’t contain all the super tough teams.

So, in your opinion, everything is wrong.
The announcement “We’ll open sign-ups to everyone, but only 16 teams per region will make it into the Tournament (subject to change)” SHOULD BE “We’ll open sign-ups for the best teams (in leaderboard), but only 16 best of the best teams per region will make it into the Tournament (subject to change)”

^ Well…. the biggest problem in both sentences are ‘subject to change’. Doesn’t matter what they write if they say they’re gonna change it anyway. I understand why they did it, but the only way people will be happy is when they allow everyone to play.

Rezz.8019:

Chaith.8256:

KarlaGrey.5903:

War Machine, Last Pride, Idiot Savants, vD, rawr etc. all had to fight their way up the same way other entrants did (by fighting oponents of similar skill), after all.

That’s fine. But for example: when you have War Machine VS. Last Pride in the first round of preliminaries, Last Pride VS. Idiot Savants in the second round of preliminaries, Idiot Savants VS. vD in the third round of preliminaries, ETC, there is a good chance that:

• The finals will be a world class team, vs. an opponent who has no hope in keeping up.

• Many teams who deserved to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th, were potentially eliminated early on by the 1st place team – meanwhile, people that are weaker would fill those positions, because their brackets were ridiculously devoid of good teams.

Seeding the brackets so the veteran teams are evenly spread out is definitely a positive to the quality of the tournament.

If they lost in first or second round then they did not deserve to be 2nd or 5th or whatever. And so what if first round would be 2 really good teams while second round might be a really good team against a pretty decent-average team? Does it matter? Why force only finals to be interesting when first rounds could be interesting too. And whoever gets that far to finals or semifinals will definitely not be a terrible team and they will put up a good fight.

You need to realize that the few good teams/pug groups on NA will absolutely destroy an “average team”. They should evenly spread out the few good teams otherwise the semis and even quarters will be a full out 500-0 for most teams and free items for pvers.

As I’ve suggested before, make this really easy…

64 teams in the tournament
8 teams are selected by Blu and are the seeded teams.
56 teams are randomly selected and are randomly placed into bracket positions.

style.6173:

As I’ve suggested before, make this really easy…

64 teams in the tournament
8 teams are selected by Blu and are the seeded teams.
56 teams are randomly selected and are randomly placed into bracket positions.

and my team gets screwed over after months of practice cuz we didn’t luck out gg

style.6173:

As I’ve suggested before, make this really easy…

64 teams in the tournament
8 teams are selected by Blu and are the seeded teams.
56 teams are randomly selected and are randomly placed into bracket positions.

Then the “hand picked” teams should have to go through qualifiers for their place on the seeding list. It’s the difference between facing a 16 seed in the opening round or a 15 seed.

I had to put my waders on to get through the pool of alpha male testosterone in here.

style.6173:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Also, I believe that Anet guys would organise this much, much better. At least they are not teenagers and have way more experience with this. I hope they will get inspired and host the next one, properly.

But I still have hope that this one will work out. Let’s see if it will be what it was advertised to be or it will be some type of yet another boring invitational with same teams as always.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

You are both right and wrong here.

The right part:
The 1v1 skill level is higher in upper level PvP than in the top WvW roaming groups. I specific upper level here, because of course there are bad people in PvP and WvW.

The wrong part:
Zerging takes no skill. Not really accurate. If it was, than whoever has the most people would win every fight. Smaller groups can beat larger groups. It’s funny how little PvP people know about WvW and how little WvW people know about PvP (see below).

The part you’d probably agree with but didn’t say:
If the best 5 1v1 duelers in the game joined the same team, it doesn’t mean they would win. What a WvW person doesn’t understand is that it is not only about individual skill in a PvP match. It is about working well with the team. It is about knowing how to rotate. It is about knowing when to attack an NPC or to fight for a point. It is about understanding timing of events. This is all important strategy that some random from PvE or WvW won’t understand even if they happen to be a fantastic dueler.

100 WvW guards press 1 all. Everyone in front of them will die. The end. Numbers matter. The end. You can win a 2v3 just like a 20 v30 but in the end, numbers win the fight before skill

Darek.1836:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Also, I believe that Anet guys would organise this much, much better. At least they are not teenagers and have way more experience with this. I hope they will get inspired and host the next one, properly.

But I still have hope that this one will work out. Let’s see if it will be what it was advertised to be or it will be some type of yet another boring invitational with same teams as always.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

not gonna say I’m disagreeing but I’m disagreeing. just look at caed and toker, tons of wvw thieves can beat them 1v1 8+/10 times.

Caed and Toker play viable PvP builds and wud wreck anyone that matches spec. And if for some reason they need too, they could adapt to the shadow arts handicap, but for now that is useless top tier pvp… Cruuk was probably the best regen thief that played this game and I guarantee he would dominate any WvW thief at the game of cat and mouse…. and if stats were balanced in wvw no thief would run regen if they planed on killing something other than a misquito

Despite this thread veering off course, I would like to make some suggestions/vote for how to handle the number “issue”:

Best:
Have a play-in system for teams to make it in. This will make teams with even any pvp experience whoop teams that are just yolo-ing in.

Next-best:
Qualify in based on leaderboard position, with a requirement for total # of tourney games played (maybe 50). There is still time for people who want to just jump in to play those games, and that will help reduce the number of people who either buy extra accounts to RNG into top 100 by winning 8 of the first 10 games or so. This would also ensure that all teams have at least 5 people that have played at least 50 games each to have the basics down beyond just zerging the point. True, leaderboard position doesn’t mean much, but a bad player can’t hold a higher LB position through 50 games.

Worst:
Random rolls for people to get in. This would demoralize players.

Final note:
Top teams should get an automatic bid, as you want the tourney to show-off the best players/games. It would be terrible to have a noob v. GF final or quarter-finals. The best out-come is having all good teams in the finals with lots of close,dramatic matches. New teams are just going to zerg around and could be beaten without any fights and just out-rotating opponents.

Edit: Also, kudos to Blu for putting in so much work to make this tourney happen. If things are getting out of-hand for him alone, however, Anet needs to give him the support to make it happen.

Let’s keep the trashtalking to a minimum guys , we really dont need this thread getting closed.

Blu and ArenaNet will work this out and I am confident it will be a fair system. Let’s just sit tight until then and see how things play out.

Mike.4830:

Darek.1836:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Also, I believe that Anet guys would organise this much, much better. At least they are not teenagers and have way more experience with this. I hope they will get inspired and host the next one, properly.

But I still have hope that this one will work out. Let’s see if it will be what it was advertised to be or it will be some type of yet another boring invitational with same teams as always.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

not gonna say I’m disagreeing but I’m disagreeing. just look at caed and toker, tons of wvw thieves can beat them 1v1 8+/10 times.

Caed and Toker play viable PvP builds and wud wreck anyone that matches spec. And if for some reason they need too, they could adapt to the shadow arts handicap, but for now that is useless top tier pvp… Cruuk was probably the best regen thief that played this game and I guarantee he would dominate any WvW thief at the game of cat and mouse…. and if stats were balanced in wvw no thief would run regen if they planed on killing something other than a misquito

Your confidence in PvP players is hilarious. PvP is decided by running to empty points. Primarily that is what wins. Combat takes a huge back seat to this “pro” tactic. In WvW at least combat is the primary factor in success or failure. The people there simply fight and have practice in fighting which gives them the edge (in many cases) over player vs pointers in spvp.

I say it again, I have played against or with anyone who is anyone in spvp. Either in solo q or a team q. And yet the best people I have fought have been in WvW. That is an unpopular opinion on the spvp forum. I get that. But maybe it is time to wind the egos in a bit. PvP players are big fish in small ponds. There are better players in WvW. And this isn’t from a WvW player. This is from an almost exclusive pvp player who has played enough to grind multiple accounts up to the very top of leaderboards multiple times.

Rickster.8752:

Mike.4830:

Darek.1836:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Also, I believe that Anet guys would organise this much, much better. At least they are not teenagers and have way more experience with this. I hope they will get inspired and host the next one, properly.

But I still have hope that this one will work out. Let’s see if it will be what it was advertised to be or it will be some type of yet another boring invitational with same teams as always.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

not gonna say I’m disagreeing but I’m disagreeing. just look at caed and toker, tons of wvw thieves can beat them 1v1 8+/10 times.

Caed and Toker play viable PvP builds and wud wreck anyone that matches spec. And if for some reason they need too, they could adapt to the shadow arts handicap, but for now that is useless top tier pvp… Cruuk was probably the best regen thief that played this game and I guarantee he would dominate any WvW thief at the game of cat and mouse…. and if stats were balanced in wvw no thief would run regen if they planed on killing something other than a misquito

Your confidence in PvP players is hilarious. PvP is decided by running to empty points. Primarily that is what wins. Combat takes a huge back seat to this “pro” tactic. In WvW at least combat is the primary factor in success or failure. The people there simply fight and have practice in fighting which gives them the edge (in many cases) over player vs pointers in spvp.

I say it again, I have played against or with anyone who is anyone in spvp. Either in solo q or a team q. And yet the best people I have fought have been in WvW. That is an unpopular opinion on the spvp forum. I get that. But maybe it is time to wind the egos in a bit. PvP players are big fish in small ponds. There are better players in WvW. And this isn’t from a WvW player. This is from an almost exclusive pvp player who has played enough to grind multiple accounts up to the very top of leaderboards multiple times.

You buy multiple alts because you arent good enough to actually play consistently and be at the top of the leaderboards it sounds like.

The primary factor for success in WvW is who has the most coverage and who can bang down doors the fastest.

To say that combat isn’t the primary factor in who wins a PvP match is absurd.

infantrydiv.1620:

Rickster.8752:

Mike.4830:

Darek.1836:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

not gonna say I’m disagreeing but I’m disagreeing. just look at caed and toker, tons of wvw thieves can beat them 1v1 8+/10 times.

Caed and Toker play viable PvP builds and wud wreck anyone that matches spec. And if for some reason they need too, they could adapt to the shadow arts handicap, but for now that is useless top tier pvp… Cruuk was probably the best regen thief that played this game and I guarantee he would dominate any WvW thief at the game of cat and mouse…. and if stats were balanced in wvw no thief would run regen if they planed on killing something other than a misquito

Your confidence in PvP players is hilarious. PvP is decided by running to empty points. Primarily that is what wins. Combat takes a huge back seat to this “pro” tactic. In WvW at least combat is the primary factor in success or failure. The people there simply fight and have practice in fighting which gives them the edge (in many cases) over player vs pointers in spvp.

I say it again, I have played against or with anyone who is anyone in spvp. Either in solo q or a team q. And yet the best people I have fought have been in WvW. That is an unpopular opinion on the spvp forum. I get that. But maybe it is time to wind the egos in a bit. PvP players are big fish in small ponds. There are better players in WvW. And this isn’t from a WvW player. This is from an almost exclusive pvp player who has played enough to grind multiple accounts up to the very top of leaderboards multiple times.

You buy multiple alts because you arent good enough to actually play consistently and be at the top of the leaderboards it sounds like.

The primary factor for success in WvW is who has the most coverage and who can bang down doors the fastest.

To say that combat isn’t the primary factor in who wins a PvP match is absurd.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am not good at the game. I don’t try to be good at the game. I don’t play games in order to compete. I suck, I admit it. I am just in it for some casual fun like 99.9% of gamers. But that isn’t the point is it. In fact, if anything these facts support my argument. I suck and I get farmed by pro pvpers but I get farmed more by pro wvwers. .

And combat isn’t a factor in PvP. Most games are decided by a few caps/decaps which then take forever to gain back.

infantrydiv.1620:

Rickster.8752:

Mike.4830:

Darek.1836:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Also, I believe that Anet guys would organise this much, much better. At least they are not teenagers and have way more experience with this. I hope they will get inspired and host the next one, properly.

But I still have hope that this one will work out. Let’s see if it will be what it was advertised to be or it will be some type of yet another boring invitational with same teams as always.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

not gonna say I’m disagreeing but I’m disagreeing. just look at caed and toker, tons of wvw thieves can beat them 1v1 8+/10 times.

Caed and Toker play viable PvP builds and wud wreck anyone that matches spec. And if for some reason they need too, they could adapt to the shadow arts handicap, but for now that is useless top tier pvp… Cruuk was probably the best regen thief that played this game and I guarantee he would dominate any WvW thief at the game of cat and mouse…. and if stats were balanced in wvw no thief would run regen if they planed on killing something other than a misquito

Your confidence in PvP players is hilarious. PvP is decided by running to empty points. Primarily that is what wins. Combat takes a huge back seat to this “pro” tactic. In WvW at least combat is the primary factor in success or failure. The people there simply fight and have practice in fighting which gives them the edge (in many cases) over player vs pointers in spvp.

I say it again, I have played against or with anyone who is anyone in spvp. Either in solo q or a team q. And yet the best people I have fought have been in WvW. That is an unpopular opinion on the spvp forum. I get that. But maybe it is time to wind the egos in a bit. PvP players are big fish in small ponds. There are better players in WvW. And this isn’t from a WvW player. This is from an almost exclusive pvp player who has played enough to grind multiple accounts up to the very top of leaderboards multiple times.

You buy multiple alts because you arent good enough to actually play consistently and be at the top of the leaderboards it sounds like.

The primary factor for success in WvW is who has the most coverage and who can bang down doors the fastest.

To say that combat isn’t the primary factor in who wins a PvP match is absurd.

The primary factor in who wins a PvP match is rotations not combat. You can win every team fight and still lose to a team with better rotations.

Well thats ridiculous and clearly your MMR isnt good enough to play top tier players otherwise you would realize who is dominant… Guarantee right now, GF, Apex, Outplayed by Children, and (Caed and tany if they field a team) will be the last four teams unless they knock each other out… No WvW team will beat them and last i checked they dont win points with a decap engi, they fight for it..

Darek.1836:

style.6173:

As I’ve suggested before, make this really easy…

64 teams in the tournament
8 teams are selected by Blu and are the seeded teams.
56 teams are randomly selected and are randomly placed into bracket positions.

and my team gets screwed over after months of practice cuz we didn’t luck out gg

If you’ve been practicing “for months” and you still haven’t attained a spot in the top 100 in a dead tpvp scene, you must be doing something wrong. Just sayin’.

And for the stupid WvW vs Pvper thief discussion, people like Wild Bill run cheesey, shadow art condi thief specced to 1vX scenarios. I recall Wild Bill trying to enter the tpvp scene, getting stomped then going back into wvw. I’ve personally played against him when he was actually using a proper tpvp build and after stomping his group,I’d say Caed + co are miles ahead.

#shotsfired

Rickster.8752:

Your confidence in PvP players is hilarious. PvP is decided by running to empty points. Primarily that is what wins. Combat takes a huge back seat to this “pro” tactic. In WvW at least combat is the primary factor in success or failure. The people there simply fight and have practice in fighting which gives them the edge (in many cases) over player vs pointers in spvp.

Conquest players should be confident in their ability to play conquest.. Seeing as only one man can be temporarily decapping a point, before re-joining a skirmish or teamfight, I’m not sure how you figure that makes combat take a back seat.

Whether you believe this or not, larger scale WvW tactics often completely ignore many mechanics of GW2 combat, that PvP players are more often forced to learn, to survive.

• PvP Positioning for survival, and using terrain is everything – as you kite/LoS specific enemies. It’s very different than avoiding a singular entity (a group of players that stay stacked on themselves.) It’s more difficult to succeed at escape maneuvers such as stealth

• WvW combat isn’t as tough on people who haven’t learned the finer intricacies of combat, such as counting enemy dodges, proper aiming of hard to land abilities, or understand the cooldowns of their enemy. It’s just.. impossible, given the constant chaotic surroundings.

• In PvP, you can be slightly worse, mechanically, than your enemies, but if your rotations and map awareness are far superior, you can get earn outnumbered fights, and overcome a bad matchup, or stronger enemy. Generally, flawless rotations are the hardest thing to cultivate in the conquest game mode. Players that have less experience in this (who primarily WvW or PvE) are extremely behind on this aspect of conquest. Similarly, how a player handles being in an outnumbered situation is extremely skill testing and important, too. IF you nullify their damage, and remain at good HP when you’re 1v2 by kiting off point, you can have a temporary numbers advantage elsewhere, and still stand a chance of winning once reinforcements come.

Generally, the top PvP teams are extremely skilled, mechanically, and have perfected their teamwork to the point where they can just out-rotate, outnumber, and outplay any team who’s new to conquest..

Being good mechanically isn’t enough. Even if WvW/PvE players are equally skilled, mechanically, it still could easily be a blow out.

that, and WvWers arent good.

Mike.4830:

that, and WvWers arent good.

That’s a pretty presumptuous thing to say.. that’s not always true.

Chaith.8256:

Mike.4830:

that, and WvWers arent good.

That’s a pretty presumptuous thing to say.. that’s not always true.

Is pretty true. Plus people that purely wvw have no idea how the game works, I can throw 1 nade on my engy in wvw and kill a thief, I can run around with 100% crit chance with 3000 armor on my war and 5 shot things with 1h sword. I can crit for 10k with meteor shower lol.

People are too used to fire and forget and it takes a ton of the skill out of the game when you can just run up on some one and gib them.

Tbh to avoid any problems of teams not getting a spot in a tournament if they deserve it in the future, would be easily solved by just having qualifying tournaments or some other qualifying system in order to even sign for the tournament??

By doing this, not only do you get a lot of teams signing for the event but also more teams would play TeamQ as they would need to practice in order to qualify.

For this tournament I think that Seeding is a complete MUST, nobody wants to see a veteran team 500-0 a WvW guild in the finals of the Legends of the Mists tournament.

Frae

Mike.4830:

Well thats ridiculous and clearly your MMR isnt good enough to play top tier players otherwise you would realize who is dominant… Guarantee right now, GF, Apex, Outplayed by Children, and (Caed and tany if they field a team) will be the last four teams unless they knock each other out… No WvW team will beat them and last i checked they dont win points with a decap engi, they fight for it..

My MMR has been good enough at times to play everyone, which again is a sad indication of sPvP in this game. Because I am not good at the game, nor do I try to learn any of the game mechanics like people who truely want to compete at the game do. So if you get a casual player able to get a high MMR what does that say about PvP in this game?

WvW has more true pvpers because in WvW they primarily just fight each other. In PvP you end up fighting vs points 90% of the time. O look we won the fight at middle but nope some guy on our close already and by time we get there we are being bunkered over and over. According to alpha and beta sources alot of people who came to this game to pvp couldn’t be bothered with just playing stand on a point game play.

If PvP was about combat then you would get more than 5 points for a player kill.

Rickster.8752:

In PvP you end up fighting vs points 90% of the time.

And in WvW, you end up playing vs Doors and zergs 90% of the time, while the remaining 10% consist of pveing, or doing make-believe pvp.
Point being?

Rickster.8752:

If PvP was about combat then you would get more than 5 points for a player kill.

Proper rotation and defending points is a huge component of PvP..

Just like laying siege to doors/walls is a huge component of WvW.

In neither case do those components make the game mode only about doing those things. Sure, you can scream to your heart’s content that PvP is nothing but Player vs. Point, but you’re only making yourself look foolish.

Regardless of who the ‘true PvPers’ are in this game, it will indeed be interesting to see which ‘true PvPers’ will be taking first place in the Tournament of Legends.

This will probably be one of the few tournaments I watch, just because the amount of people playing in it. I’d love to see some upsets. There are some very talented people that don’t play that much pvp.

The arguing about wvw v. pvp, etc., is just derailing this thread. As it stands, this is a tournament being held in spvp and the game mode is conquest.

This tournament is taking place Apr 26/27 for EU and May 3/4 for NA.

At present, there is a leaderboard for ranking players’ performance in that game mode. I find it highly reasonable for the organizers of this tournament to use that asset to assist in qualifying players for these tournaments. Esp. if ANET agrees to assist them in using it by giving a full NA/EU player ranking at whatever cut-off date for qualifying is determined.

For those arguing that qualifications would be a better method, I would suggest that the results might not be as different as you think and the additional resource needed to manage that system probably doesn’t justify the slight variance it would create in the qualified teams. Especially if the organizers reserve spots for legacy spvp teams with a proven track-record in conquest based tournaments.

If you are a team that is serious about this tourney, and you are told the organizers will used the LB to determine who qualifies, wouldn’t you start consistently playing with your team in the game mode that the tourney will be held in? It isn’t that hard to get on the LB, esp. if you are a skilled group who understands conquest mechanics and can devote the time needed to have a chance by the end of April.

It may not be the best method, but I think it is the only viable method available in the time frame given for this tourney with the resources available to the group organizing this thing.

Rubik.7192:

Darek.1836:

style.6173:

As I’ve suggested before, make this really easy…

64 teams in the tournament
8 teams are selected by Blu and are the seeded teams.
56 teams are randomly selected and are randomly placed into bracket positions.

and my team gets screwed over after months of practice cuz we didn’t luck out gg

If you’ve been practicing “for months” and you still haven’t attained a spot in the top 100 in a dead tpvp scene, you must be doing something wrong. Just sayin’.

And for the stupid WvW vs Pvper thief discussion, people like Wild Bill run cheesey, shadow art condi thief specced to 1vX scenarios. I recall Wild Bill trying to enter the tpvp scene, getting stomped then going back into wvw. I’ve personally played against him when he was actually using a proper tpvp build and after stomping his group,I’d say Caed + co are miles ahead.

#shotsfired

ok you got me it’ll be about a month by the time the tourny comes around, in which 2/3 the time we 2-3man q so we lose a lot. not everyone qs with their team or with top 20 players 100% of the time.

Mike.4830:

style.6173:

Mike.4830:

Rickster.8752:

Rezz.8019:

Rickster.8752:

Not trolling but maybe I didn’t think things through clearly. I get your point. But I also think it would be a shame if newbies come to the pvp and just get demoralised by being trashed 500-0 or by practicing and then being told that sorry they didnt get a place because they weren’t “known”.

In short, this tournament SHOULD cater to the casuals and newbies imo. It is what the game needs

I agree with this. And who is to say someone is known or not? I doubt he knows Karmy and his SW guildies, or June guild, or UC, or many, many others who definitely have a decent chance of beating everyone, including “known” teams.

Also, I believe that Anet guys would organise this much, much better. At least they are not teenagers and have way more experience with this. I hope they will get inspired and host the next one, properly.

But I still have hope that this one will work out. Let’s see if it will be what it was advertised to be or it will be some type of yet another boring invitational with same teams as always.

Disagree, it can be organised well by the community especially with Blu who is really good. So I dont think anything needs to change in that respect.

But I had kind of hoped this tournament would bring new players into pvp from pve and wvw. I would love if this was the aim of the tournament. But if they aim is simply to reward those most hardcore players then fine. That is cool too, just a missed opportunity from my point of view.

The best 2/3 players I have ever play with or against are all people who rarely PvP but spend most of their time in WvW or PvE. And I have played with or against everyone of any renown in PvP. The fact is PvE and WvW have a way bigger player base so it is no surprise that the absolute best/most talented guys come from these game modes. The problem is that the barrier to entry for them is huge and they tend to love rewards. If this tournament could bring these people, and others who aren’t as talented, into spvp (finally) then we could really see esports get going.

First of all, I have no idea who you are, and im certain I have never lost to you or your “renown” friends. Secondly the reason Pvers dont play PvP is because they are inclined to continue clicking their skills. As far as WvW, there is little to no skill required in zergs and roamers are still not near the lvl of pvpers. WvWers rely on broken stats and gear, and are quite inferior to PvP. Even guilds like Apex, which was orignally PvP only has transitioned to WvW because they were not top tier pvpers. However in WvW they are very good.. You WvWers and PvErs will soon learn your place in the skill heirachy.
-Backpack

You are both right and wrong here.

The right part:
The 1v1 skill level is higher in upper level PvP than in the top WvW roaming groups. I specific upper level here, because of course there are bad people in PvP and WvW.

The wrong part:
Zerging takes no skill. Not really accurate. If it was, than whoever has the most people would win every fight. Smaller groups can beat larger groups. It’s funny how little PvP people know about WvW and how little WvW people know about PvP (see below).

The part you’d probably agree with but didn’t say:
If the best 5 1v1 duelers in the game joined the same team, it doesn’t mean they would win. What a WvW person doesn’t understand is that it is not only about individual skill in a PvP match. It is about working well with the team. It is about knowing how to rotate. It is about knowing when to attack an NPC or to fight for a point. It is about understanding timing of events. This is all important strategy that some random from PvE or WvW won’t understand even if they happen to be a fantastic dueler.

100 WvW guards press 1 all. Everyone in front of them will die. The end. Numbers matter. The end. You can win a 2v3 just like a 20 v30 but in the end, numbers win the fight before skill

You proved my point. PvP players know so little about WvW and WvW players know so little about PvP. Thanks.

The truth is that you could take the top 4 PvP teams from a PvP tournament and they would get wrecked in a 20v20 GvG against a top WvW guild.

Likewise, you could take the top 5 players from that same WvW guild and they would get wrecked by a PvP team in conquest mode.

Different game types = different strategies. Not sure why people argue anything different.