Guild Wars 2

Avead.5760:

Its true though..the only conclusion i get from this video is eles burst is in dire need of nerf.
I mean god.. 9 button presses in less than a second for instant melee single target damage damage is definately a priority compared to lets say 1200 range undistinguishable massive huge aoe cond pressure of necro.
And its certainly more importtant than the fact that necro autoattakcs a mesm once and eats half his hp pool

I know, right? you should be punished for pressing keys fast and rewarded for autoattacking enemies to death.

Helseths channel gives a more in depth test

http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/b/434824077

Shar.3402:

Avead.5760:

Its true though..the only conclusion i get from this video is eles burst is in dire need of nerf.
I mean god.. 9 button presses in less than a second for instant melee single target damage damage is definately a priority compared to lets say 1200 range undistinguishable massive huge aoe cond pressure of necro.
And its certainly more importtant than the fact that necro autoattakcs a mesm once and eats half his hp pool

I know, right? you should be punished for pressing keys fast and rewarded for autoattacking enemies to death.

lol sure just glance over the fact that you Ele’s have been yammering on about dealing 12-20k damage with instant cast, zero flight time abilities.

Oh ho, but it takes 9 buttons to do it you say! So let me ask you, do you prefer the full face plant on the keyboard, the face-plant-and-roll, the wax-on/wax-off full keyboard wipe, or the simple kitten -plant and fart on the keyboard (my personal fav)?

Benji.9203:

Helseths channel gives a more in depth test

http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/b/434824077

I don’t get it… why didn’t the Ele just run away and reset? Like the Necro would have a say in the matter…

I think this just goes to show you need to actually play the game before you start making arguments about balance. This is the #1 reason why it’s so frustrating discussing balance on this forum.

hackks.3687:

Shar.3402:

Avead.5760:

Its true though..the only conclusion i get from this video is eles burst is in dire need of nerf.
I mean god.. 9 button presses in less than a second for instant melee single target damage damage is definately a priority compared to lets say 1200 range undistinguishable massive huge aoe cond pressure of necro.
And its certainly more importtant than the fact that necro autoattakcs a mesm once and eats half his hp pool

I know, right? you should be punished for pressing keys fast and rewarded for autoattacking enemies to death.

lol sure just glance over the fact that you Ele’s have been yammering on about dealing 12-20k damage with instant cast, zero flight time abilities.

Oh ho, but it takes 9 buttons to do it you say! So let me ask you, do you prefer the full face plant on the keyboard, the face-plant-and-roll, the wax-on/wax-off full keyboard wipe, or the simple kitten -plant and fart on the keyboard (my personal fav)?

I prefer to throw a double punch on the left side of my keyboard, to make sure I don’t miss anything.
That’s why I need a new keyboard every other week.

Shar.3402:

hackks.3687:

Shar.3402:

Avead.5760:

Its true though..the only conclusion i get from this video is eles burst is in dire need of nerf.
I mean god.. 9 button presses in less than a second for instant melee single target damage damage is definately a priority compared to lets say 1200 range undistinguishable massive huge aoe cond pressure of necro.
And its certainly more importtant than the fact that necro autoattakcs a mesm once and eats half his hp pool

I know, right? you should be punished for pressing keys fast and rewarded for autoattacking enemies to death.

lol sure just glance over the fact that you Ele’s have been yammering on about dealing 12-20k damage with instant cast, zero flight time abilities.

Oh ho, but it takes 9 buttons to do it you say! So let me ask you, do you prefer the full face plant on the keyboard, the face-plant-and-roll, the wax-on/wax-off full keyboard wipe, or the simple kitten -plant and fart on the keyboard (my personal fav)?

I prefer to throw a double punch on the left side of my keyboard, to make sure I don’t miss anything.
That’s why I need a new keyboard every other week.

oooo that’s a nice one, I’d add it to my repertoire but I don’t think it’s going to work with my budget… maybe one day, though!

Bas.7406:

Shar.3402:

QtHman.6502:

If you are knocked down while in DS, you are knocked out of DS for 10 seconds. So if I am on the ground and it’s on a 10 sec CD how am I supposed to activate it.

Is this a new change? or maybe i spend a whole year in this game and didn’t know about this one.

Can someone please test this and correct me if i’m wrong.

I can tell you for sure that the dodge train golem (that pushes you back) and the engineer npc (which knocks you back with rifle) don’t kick you out of DS.
I can tell you for sure that knockdown (earthquake) doesn’t kick you out of DS.

Unless it was fixed in the last patch Updraft, The Necro Golem, Flamethrower push back and the warrior stomp all knocked and put DS on CD.

This has never, ever, happened to me on my necro. Never once have I been knocked out of DS unless I ran out of life force.

Follidus.8027:

I think this just goes to show you need to actually play game before you start making arguments about balance. This is the #1 reason why it’s so frustrating discussing balance on this forum.

could you maybe not use so many pronouns and be a little more descriptive? I can’t tell what/who you’re referring to

The Death Shroud buff was definitely big, but the situation shown in the original video is too impractical to be relevant. (I also don’t think Spectral Armor is worth it, although Last Gasp is definitely amazing and viable now.)

The patch moved in a good direction with the class: It provided more sustained defenses, and it nerfed damage. It might not have been enough on the damage side or too much on the survivability end, but it’s generally a step forward.

One thing people need to understand: Death Shroud is supposed to act as an evade of sorts. It’s supposed to replace vigor, block and immunities. So it’s not really unthinkable that it would eat an elementalist’s burst combo.

basically, necros are stronger after this minor patch, yay.

Tested a Life Force bunker in tPvP due to this, using Spectral Armor, high Vitality, and high toughness.

Facetanked 4 people for 20 seconds with Deathshroud. Died instantaneously upon exiting Deathshroud with 2,300 Armor, and 26,000 HP.

A good bunker it does not make, and in order to get all that Deathshroud survivability, I had to sacrifice all of my damage.

2300 armor is pretty low for a bunker spec…I have more on my ele, running valkyrie/berserker and 0 points in toughness tree -.-

These videos showing 100 percent life force situations are very misleading. When do you guys run around with 100 percent life force? The only time that should happen is when you’re facerolling a PUG or horrible team.

Shar.3402:

2300 armor is pretty low for a bunker spec…I have more on my ele, running valkyrie/berserker and 0 points in toughness tree -.-

Does your Ele have 26,000 HP?

I have to run a hybrid to have a larger life force pool, so I can regen more DS faster, since LF is based upon a percentage, not a fixed number.

Tenderly.7019:

Batmang.5421:

well actually you do. with the flesh golem trick you can start the game with 10% which will still help mitigate a lot of damage when using the combo in the video. Like I said, I’m not defending stealth openers. That issue deserves its own thread.

We can start with 30% now since June 25th! Blood fiend, shadow fiend, flesh golem

giggity

1 love

LOL! so you’ll actually start a game with more DS than the video. I wonder how many people know their own kitten class well enough to know this. This game just seems to be too complicated for people to figure out. People would MUCH rather complain and rage on forums than actually figure out how to play.

Follidus.8027:

I think this just goes to show you need to actually play the game before you start making arguments about balance. This is the #1 reason why it’s so frustrating discussing balance on this forum.

TRUTH

For people that haven’t read, there have now been 4 people that have decided to use insults and “factual” evidence that just isn’t true to defend necro. Some of the “facts” they have stated are completely wrong and clearly a game knowledge issue. I think my point has been sufficiently illustrated. These forums are not the avenue for productive balance discussion.

Just asking, because we can’t really reason with someone who is raging against necro just because one build is over the top (and at some point, maybe it’s the conditions damage the real culprit and not it’s application, I see so many Burning/bleeding hybrid warriors now it’s not funny).

What makes other classes weapons skills/utilities less OP than our (only) capability to absorb damage in DS? Mesmer have 2-3 sec invuln on a 9,5/12 sec cooldown, can evade a lot more than us, have access to block, and don’t need to build up another ressource to use it (clones are way easier to manage).

Engi can block for 3-4 sec, same for guardians and warrior, and thief could evade all that combo with only SB#3. Rangers are evade master too now. This “burst” from ele must be timed well to be effective, against all classes.

Most of these classes dont even need to put utilities for their survivability, only weapons skills could negate that burst.

We need to grab weapons that gives us lifeforce, use a 60 sec cooldown utility and eat damage. If you would just wait for the buff to wear down (6 sec), you wouldnt give any lifeforce to the necro and just roll him afterward. You see him go in DS, just go away, come back after he returned to normal and you have a full 10 sec to burst him, and that’s if he got any Lifeforce left.

They put Spectral Armor as a deterrent to been trained, and while it’s not working against a team, it’s sure do it’s job against 1 player dumb enough to continue attacking throught it. Just remember that’s is a long cooldown, too long for a prolonged fight, and you’ll be winning every fight against them.

Guess it becomes a major issue when the stars align and something isn’t instagibbed by an otherwise nearly guaranteed instagib combo.
Clearly, that distinct blue icon coupled with a big black cloud are just screaming ‘spike me’. Much like you’d unload a spike on a mesmer popping a 4s distortion, right?
I guess baiting out cooldowns is overrated, and so is actually paying attention to opponent’s buffs, because staged fights are a good indication of how OP something is.
For credibility’s sake, at least let the video be a clip from a real tpvp match next time, ok?
You know, something like this:

Besides, when one actually SHOULD pull off the sarmor+DS combo is when fighting outnumbered. Why would you use it against a single target, when you could just as well DS3 them (granted there is no stability involved).

Not to mention that with the build including soul marks you only have 10 sec cd death shroud so you can force a DS early and as soon as he comes out spike him during the 10 sec window.

But nope, apparently having a spike absorption every 10 seconds on a class with no vigor or stability or teleports or stealth is too much.

this thread makes me sad.

srsly, guys? how is that soooo OP compared to perma-evasion, blocks, perma-vigor and all the kittening Mesmer-invuls?

i’d love to see people uploading a similarly staged fight with other professions as target, btw.

One thing to also remember is that sure another profession can do higher damage in shorter time but once the burst is done it can be very risky to stick around. Necro is quite bulky especially with this latest patch and their damage never stops unlike burst classes which drops drastically and becomes more risky (soon as you burst people can switch to you and melt you rather instantly).

You can argue that burst classes can kill quicker and have tools to evade/invun damage but necro’s damage never stops and its so high with less risk as its 900 range as opposed to melee.

Also a lot of people seem to be forgetting weakness. Weakness reduces crits far too much imo, 1.7k crit should not turn into 400 damage.

Deathshroud replacing vigour, blocks, invuns and other defensives is a valid point, however, for the damage a necro does (now) it needs to also be vulnerable.

What is the point of bashing the devs? Everyone whines that they don’t engage with us enough and then as soon as they do we get people saying things like “well you obviously don’t know your own game” and “do you even play this game” etc

I know common courtesy disappears when people get in front of a keyboard, but can we try and keep in mind that for most of the devs this game is their job and their life outside of the job, and ridiculous over the top bashing of it is like someone going up to you and just shouting a torrent of abuse at you about every aspect of your life…

I’m worried about my necro after all these posts. While i think we lost a lot of damage reduction after fixing the DS bug and escape options, people actually complain necro survivability is op.

In this video, you are just unhappy coz you couldn’t deal 15k damage at that necro. A class that can’t outmanouver with teleports stability options or other stuff is supposed to have this kind of damage mitigation. Every class must have a way of dealing with these spikes, otherwise necros would be nothing more than target practice for your precious spiking eles. It is that ele’s fault to use his spike during spectral armor buff. Having that mitigation 6/66 of times is not opness, its survivability option.

Learn to watch your opponent, don’t attack it when it pops spectral armor and please stop whining about it. Spectral armor is a 60 sec cd skill, every skill as useful as it is, also has weaknesses.

While i believe terror damage was a bit op for spvp, i think our damage is better scaled now as well with the terror nerf.

As a necro i grew tired of reading posts that complain about necro that, necro this. Necro finally feels like a decent class compared to what it was, a competitive class.

Please, learn to adapt.

Kouryuu.4213:

One thing to also remember is that sure another profession can do higher damage in shorter time but once the burst is done it can be very risky to stick around. Necro is quite bulky especially with this latest patch and their damage never stops unlike burst classes which drops drastically and becomes more risky (soon as you burst people can switch to you and melt you rather instantly).

You can argue that burst classes can kill quicker and have tools to evade/invun damage but necro’s damage never stops and its so high with less risk as its 900 range as opposed to melee.

Isn’t this the definition of attrition?
Perfectly match the Necromancer description (finally).

Some heartseeker spammers try to get necro nerfed even more. Good thread.

Kouryuu.4213:

One thing to also remember is that sure another profession can do higher damage in shorter time but once the burst is done it can be very risky to stick around. Necro is quite bulky especially with this latest patch and their damage never stops unlike burst classes which drops drastically and becomes more risky (soon as you burst people can switch to you and melt you rather instantly).

You can argue that burst classes can kill quicker and have tools to evade/invun damage but necro’s damage never stops and its so high with less risk as its 900 range as opposed to melee.

+1
The problem overall why the necro can keep his dmg high is the amount of conditions and a not existing stat that reduces this condition-dmg. Vitality is a bad excuse for such a lack.

@junkpile

no – they play now necro

Power dps: Still strongest in the game
Condition dps: more viable and suntainable dps

The only difference is with any kind of power lineup you are focused to play a 100% perfekt match. If you are not able to oneshot a guy in EACH Teamfight, also small ones liek 2v2 3v3 you lost. Bursting down is not enough, you also have to get the stomp instantly.

It’s a your not allowed to fail one time lineup. <—- everyone knows, its impossible

Condi lineup you are allowed to do mistakes, it wont hurt you half compared to the power lineup. Constant sustain dps, only a period of time decides your TF win.

papaganoosh.7908:

What is the point of bashing the devs? Everyone whines that they don’t engage with us enough and then as soon as they do we get people saying things like “well you obviously don’t know your own game” and “do you even play this game” etc

I know common courtesy disappears when people get in front of a keyboard, but can we try and keep in mind that for most of the devs this game is their job and their life outside of the job, and ridiculous over the top bashing of it is like someone going up to you and just shouting a torrent of abuse at you about every aspect of your life…

Absolutely. However ppl are frustrated and there is no excuse for their patches balancewise. They went into the right direction, we even had a really good balance-state before the necro-buff went in. It was a state where guardian, mesmer, ele, thief, engi and ranger were in a perfect spot. The only thing that remained was necro (as warrior will never fit into this combat-system). Instead of stick to their philosophy of slow and small balance-changes, they crashed with an Airplane into the door. From Zero-to-Hero is what they did. This class became so abusive, that we are now, before PAX, in the worst state of balance since the nerf o thief-dmg. PPL should not bash the devs, but the devs shouldn’t shearch for excuses either.

Let me summarize balance progress: 3 month ago necros was nearly out of meta, they couldnt keep up with engie’s condi dmg, the fix was obvious, had to give necro another condition which they did. Torment was perfect.

Another problem necro had, and the greatest one, was survivability, we were nearly getting one shotted. Whenever we said " we are too squishy, help us!!" everyone’s answer was ready " you have deathshroud use it" even devs said the same thing.

For 6 months, first thing they have to do was fixing the ds, because trying to balance a class without fixing class mechanic was runnig in circles. Instead of that, they reduced the cooldown spectral armor utility and trait which no one was using it (90 sec was too long, but 60 sec is overkill with new deathshroud) obviously it didnt fix the problem.

And again, instead of ds fix, they added dhuumfire, braind dead, no skill required trait. (Also fire doesnt fit in necro theme) Necro went to op status from tier 3 with one patch. (with weakness buff, blind fix). I really, really want to learn the logic behind this decision. Tell us who suggest this change, what did he/she said while recommending such a lovely idea.

This patch was the most accurate thing that anet did so far. I’m not kidding, DS fix was really needed and survivability was the nearly only thing that necros needed from beginnig of the game. But fixing DS before PAX and after the dhuumfire buff is ridiculous.

Dear devs, I now you care about us, you even consider our feelings and emotions. Pls look at the people who says its a new meta, you have to adapt to new things etc. etc. and learn how an intelligent human being can live in a kitten fairy land. Stop being one of those guys and postpone PAX tournament if you can. I’m not a high skilled player, i just love this game. And i dont want to see 3 necro teams running around and winning the biggest competition of the year with facerolling on keyboard.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

papaganoosh.7908:

What is the point of bashing the devs? Everyone whines that they don’t engage with us enough and then as soon as they do we get people saying things like “well you obviously don’t know your own game” and “do you even play this game” etc

I know common courtesy disappears when people get in front of a keyboard, but can we try and keep in mind that for most of the devs this game is their job and their life outside of the job, and ridiculous over the top bashing of it is like someone going up to you and just shouting a torrent of abuse at you about every aspect of your life…

Absolutely. However ppl are frustrated and there is no excuse for their patches balancewise. They went into the right direction, we even had a really good balance-state before the necro-buff went in. It was a state where guardian, mesmer, ele, thief, engi and ranger were in a perfect spot. The only thing that remained was necro (as warrior will never fit into this combat-system). Instead of stick to their philosophy of slow and small balance-changes, they crashed with an Airplane into the door. From Zero-to-Hero is what they did. This class became so abusive, that we are now, before PAX, in the worst state of balance since the nerf o thief-dmg. PPL should not bash the devs, but the devs shouldn’t shearch for excuses either.

I think that this is the first time in a long time that all classes are viable in some way, shape or form.

Necro is very powerful, and to make Warrior viable they make them the best counter for any Necro by giving them the tools to totally lock them down with CC.

That being said I think the current AoE Condi cleave meta is terrible and not fun to play.

sorrow.2364:

Isn’t this the definition of attrition?
Perfectly match the Necromancer description (finally).

This is a very valid point.

Is their damage too high for attrition and for how easy it is to apply though? I cant be the judge. I feel like all condi damage builds should be pressure damage and not a way to actually kill someone (obviously need to eventually in smaller fights).

Maybe replace terror or burning with a trait that heals the necro based on a percentage of condi damage dealt. That way they lose damage but gain sustain and still have decent pressure damage.

It’s a tough balance, I dont envy the devs.

papaganoosh.7908:

I think that this is the first time in a long time that all classes are viable in some way, shape or form.

That being said I think the current AoE Condi cleave meta is terrible and not fun to play.

I see a bit of a contradiciton in this post.
However, I would call 6 classes viable, 1 class not viable and 1 class dictating what ppl have to reroll.