Guild Wars 2

Only way I can face these guys is with boatloads of evasion being available. It’s like a cat on a hot tin roof style of play… pretty irritating and not easy to win.

Faeyd.5094:

Only way I can face these guys is with boatloads of evasion being available. It’s like a cat on a hot tin roof style of play… pretty irritating and not easy to win.

dunno what evade does against sustaindamage of rocket/rifle/flame. only cc turrets may be.

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

“Never be nerfed…?” Engineers have been nerfed several times like AR and nades has seen numerous nerfs already (the most recent being the poison grenade).

Depends on what you mean by “lack”. It’s like saying that everyone has stun breaks but the Engineer doesn’t have reliable/good stun breaks. Condition cleansing? Yeah, you have Elixir C, Cleaning Formula, and the Healing Turret but getting condition spammed too many times kills the engineer.

simple… stay out of the range of turrets lol.

If the engi built a nest at a point… dont bother unless you can 2v1 him down… just focus on the other 2 points and you will hold off. if engi leaves his turret nest, hes gonna get burned down very quickly….just let him rot in his nest… you not gonna beat a turret engi 1v1 in most cases if you stay in range of his turrets

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

“Never be nerfed…?” Engineers have been nerfed several times like AR and nades has seen numerous nerfs already (the most recent being the poison grenade).

Depends on what you mean by “lack”. It’s like saying that everyone has stun breaks but the Engineer doesn’t have reliable/good stun breaks. Condition cleansing? Yeah, you have Elixir C, Cleaning Formula, and the Healing Turret but getting condition spammed too many times kills the engineer.

Ok you dodged the question as people usually do

Its not hard… Name all the things that an engineer cannot do or does not have. It’s not hard. What don’t they have access to? They don’t have reliable/good stun breaks.. Is that it? I already know the answer to this question.. I simply like to see how creative engineers respond to it without revealing the obvious truth.

So.. is that it? Not so reliable stun-breakers? Cuz if that’s all I’ll start to tell you what a necromancer lacks.. It’s really easy when you’re honest about it lol.

TheDevice.2751:

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

“Never be nerfed…?” Engineers have been nerfed several times like AR and nades has seen numerous nerfs already (the most recent being the poison grenade).

Depends on what you mean by “lack”. It’s like saying that everyone has stun breaks but the Engineer doesn’t have reliable/good stun breaks. Condition cleansing? Yeah, you have Elixir C, Cleaning Formula, and the Healing Turret but getting condition spammed too many times kills the engineer.

Ok you dodged the question as people usually do

Its not hard… Name all the things that an engineer cannot do or does not have. It’s not hard. What don’t they have access to? They don’t have reliable/good stun breaks.. Is that it? I already know the answer to this question.. I simply like to see how creative engineers respond to it without revealing the obvious truth.

So.. is that it? Not so reliable stun-breakers? Cuz if that’s all I’ll start to tell you what a necromancer lacks.. It’s really easy when you’re honest about it lol.

It’s not black and white. There is a difference between access and then reasonable access that won’t turn your build into a pile of rubbish. Even in the pile of rubbish you’re going to have a lack of stun breakers/stability. In reality add condition cleansing (even mentioned as a problem that should be addressed by the dev in the last ready up).

So eng is weak to cc and conditions.

That being said, strong turret/ai based builds on any class can go die in a fire. The less management/skill something takes, the less effective it should be. You know… basic game design when balancing for skill.

Forums: Decap engi is OP
ANET: cool, let’s tone that down a little bit and make the new condi turret engi even stronger than the original decap.

TheDevice.2751:

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

“Never be nerfed…?” Engineers have been nerfed several times like AR and nades has seen numerous nerfs already (the most recent being the poison grenade).

Depends on what you mean by “lack”. It’s like saying that everyone has stun breaks but the Engineer doesn’t have reliable/good stun breaks. Condition cleansing? Yeah, you have Elixir C, Cleaning Formula, and the Healing Turret but getting condition spammed too many times kills the engineer.

Ok you dodged the question as people usually do

Its not hard… Name all the things that an engineer cannot do or does not have. It’s not hard. What don’t they have access to? They don’t have reliable/good stun breaks.. Is that it? I already know the answer to this question.. I simply like to see how creative engineers respond to it without revealing the obvious truth.

So.. is that it? Not so reliable stun-breakers? Cuz if that’s all I’ll start to tell you what a necromancer lacks.. It’s really easy when you’re honest about it lol.

I play different classes and I know there are varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses relative to one another. As Aberrant said, it’s not black and white. You think no one is giving you a straight answer because you’re not accepting what people are trying to say.

Before you start accusing me of “dodging” the issue look at yourself. You don’t play any other class aside from necro: http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/TheDevice2751
This leads me to believe that you have a poor understanding of what engineers can do and what their weak points are.

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

“Never be nerfed…?” Engineers have been nerfed several times like AR and nades has seen numerous nerfs already (the most recent being the poison grenade).

Depends on what you mean by “lack”. It’s like saying that everyone has stun breaks but the Engineer doesn’t have reliable/good stun breaks. Condition cleansing? Yeah, you have Elixir C, Cleaning Formula, and the Healing Turret but getting condition spammed too many times kills the engineer.

Ok you dodged the question as people usually do

Its not hard… Name all the things that an engineer cannot do or does not have. It’s not hard. What don’t they have access to? They don’t have reliable/good stun breaks.. Is that it? I already know the answer to this question.. I simply like to see how creative engineers respond to it without revealing the obvious truth.

So.. is that it? Not so reliable stun-breakers? Cuz if that’s all I’ll start to tell you what a necromancer lacks.. It’s really easy when you’re honest about it lol.

I play different classes and I know there are varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses relative to one another. As Aberrant said, it’s not black and white. You think no one is giving you a straight answer because you’re not accepting what people are trying to say.

Before you start accusing me of “dodging” the issue look at yourself. You don’t play any other class aside from necro: http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/TheDevice2751
This leads me to believe that you have a poor understanding of what engineers can do and what their weak points are.

You haven’t even given an abstract answer aside from “its not black and white” or “I play other classes also”.

That doesn’t mean a whole lot especially when your second argument is that you have a deeper understanding of balance… Where’s your proof? You havent said anything. I reallly don’t have to play engineer for too long to understand its strengths.. that’s also why there is a wiki.

So tell me.. How exactly is an engineer balanced? Just give some examples I’ll respond to you. So if its not so black and white how can you say it is a balanced class or even build?

I haven’t even said how its unbalanced I simply asked what the class lacks as far as mechanics offered to classes… And nobody wants to answer that question.

TheDevice.2751:

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yujin.1785:

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

“Never be nerfed…?” Engineers have been nerfed several times like AR and nades has seen numerous nerfs already (the most recent being the poison grenade).

Depends on what you mean by “lack”. It’s like saying that everyone has stun breaks but the Engineer doesn’t have reliable/good stun breaks. Condition cleansing? Yeah, you have Elixir C, Cleaning Formula, and the Healing Turret but getting condition spammed too many times kills the engineer.

Ok you dodged the question as people usually do

Its not hard… Name all the things that an engineer cannot do or does not have. It’s not hard. What don’t they have access to? They don’t have reliable/good stun breaks.. Is that it? I already know the answer to this question.. I simply like to see how creative engineers respond to it without revealing the obvious truth.

So.. is that it? Not so reliable stun-breakers? Cuz if that’s all I’ll start to tell you what a necromancer lacks.. It’s really easy when you’re honest about it lol.

I play different classes and I know there are varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses relative to one another. As Aberrant said, it’s not black and white. You think no one is giving you a straight answer because you’re not accepting what people are trying to say.

Before you start accusing me of “dodging” the issue look at yourself. You don’t play any other class aside from necro: http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/TheDevice2751
This leads me to believe that you have a poor understanding of what engineers can do and what their weak points are.

You haven’t even given an abstract answer aside from “its not black and white” or “I play other classes also”.

That doesn’t mean a whole lot especially when your second argument is that you have a deeper understanding of balance… Where’s your proof? You havent said anything. I reallly don’t have to play engineer for too long to understand its strengths.. that’s also why there is a wiki.

So tell me.. How exactly is an engineer balanced? Just give some examples I’ll respond to you. So if its not so black and white how can you say it is a balanced class or even build?

I haven’t even said how its unbalanced I simply asked what the class lacks as far as mechanics offered to classes… And nobody wants to answer that question.

First off, I have never mentioned anything about balance. You only brought this into the conversation right now. Heck even your first post doesn’t even mention the word balance:

TheDevice.2751:

Yeah L2P they’re not op.. Only..

When you play tpvp there are only 3 prof to choose from
1. Engineer (cuz they’re always broke as hell. They have everything.
2. Warrior (dev’s also like warriors now. So they are ez win.)
3. Thief (dev’s always liked thieves. They hate to nerf them. Invis has no limit)

Then when you feel a bit like mixing it up and taking a chance
Guard (yeah.. they can do work. Far better siphons than necromancers, far better sustain and far better everything else)
Ele (yeah they’re buffed a bit now so they can be fun to play

DO NOT> I REPEAT.. DO NOT PLAY A NECROMANCER
unless you play a MM and pretty much barely keep up

Anyways about engineers.. They are the Dev class. They will never be nerfed or lack anything.

ANSWER THIS!! I’ve asked this question about 40 times on these forums yet people seem to dodge the question as best they can..
——What do engineers LACK? What do that HAVE?

After you’ve answered that question.. I’ll get back to you.

Second, me and Aberrant already gave a concrete answer in terms of the engineer’s weakness or your question to what they “lack”. Engies do not have good access to condition cleansing (unless fully traited to a line) and are susceptible to CC especially after they nerfed Elixir R.

I actually asked a second time to confirm that this is what they lacked so it’s not as if I ignored the answer to my question.

Having access to things like invulnerability, blocks, stealth, regen, vigor, etc to in fact matter imho. And I’m not the least bit surprised that the dev’s noticed that they are lacking in condition cleansing and want to fix it… this is proving my point from the very beginning.

Engineers are the most catered class. Let’s just have a small example of what the necromancers lack:
Vigor, stealth, invuln, escapes/leaps/teleports, stability, blocks.. the list goes on.

So after all that.. I’ll even agree that there is more to the balance than simply listing what a class can do because we’re talking about the entire spectrum here right…

So give me some examples of how this is all fair and balanced. Why are engi’s allowed to have most if not all of those things I listed above while necromancers are denied them? You can give any bit of relevant answer from timers, to counters, to other classes mechanics/traits or anything you like. I’d like to hear it.

TheDevice.2751:

I actually asked a second time to confirm that this is what they lacked so it’s not as if I ignored the answer to my question.

Having access to things like invulnerability, blocks, stealth, regen, vigor, etc to in fact matter imho. And I’m not the least bit surprised that the dev’s noticed that they are lacking in condition cleansing and want to fix it… this is proving my point from the very beginning.

Engineers are the most catered class. Let’s just have a small example of what the necromancers lack:
Vigor, stealth, invuln, escapes/leaps/teleports, stability, blocks.. the list goes on.

So after all that.. I’ll even agree that there is more to the balance than simply listing what a class can do because we’re talking about the entire spectrum here right…

So give me some examples of how this is all fair and balanced. Why are engi’s allowed to have most if not all of those things I listed above while necromancers are denied them? You can give any bit of relevant answer from timers, to counters, to other classes mechanics/traits or anything you like. I’d like to hear it.

Asking a second time? Do you honestly read what you write?

We already mentioned this. Having access to things doesn’t necessarily mean they’re good at it. It’s like comparing an engineer’s capability to do spike damage in comparison the a necro using lich form and spectral build. It’s how even if engineers have access to some stun breaks and cleansing when they’re not as useful as other classes. Engineers are always described to be the jack of all trades but the master of none so to speak.

Don’t know how to answer you even further. I feel like beating a dead horse here. Please take the time to read and understand what people are trying to tell you.

kirito giving helpful advice, wat

Ok so we want to compare necro’s to engi’s. That’s fine. Let’s look at current meta.

Stability:
Necro has better access to stability than an engi when traited. Elixir B gives 4s with 30 sec cool down. Necro when traited has stability every 10 seconds with DS.

I would say that for stability, necro’s and engi’s are equivalent. However Necro’s have a more passive stability than an engi when traited.

Might:
Engi’s can build might by staying in flamethrower (our least common kit) or HGH which is using our potions, or through runes. Necro’s have access to 10 might plus a constant 1 might build when traited (just like engis) as well as the same runes and sigils. So in terms of power/condition damage building they are equal in my mind. however, a turret engi will not be an HGH engi because he won’t be using potions. So that’s less might stacking.

Healing:
Necro’s have marks, wells, and eat conditions for cleanse. Engineers MUST use a turret for sustained healing/cleanses. The healing potion will heal/add regen but not as efficient. The necro heal is more efficient than the turret since the engi MUST overcharge for the waterfield. The necro can also pop the mark for regen as well ( I prefer wells and sending my conditions out). Sure we can cleanse with a potion but that’s a separate slot. Therefore a turret engi is cleansing/healing equal to a necro who can mark/consume.

CC:
I think the CC is where there are some complaints. Turrets can’t be feared/knocked back. The knockbacks (if you count fear as a knockback) are equal. But the turrets allow for sustained point capture even if the engi is feared/knockedback. In terms of immobilize, the necro loses but only due to range. The two are equal for daze (shield and warhorn).

Some of the other things you mentioned:
Stealth = can’t be a turret engineer. Totally different build plus the stealth potion is never really used in PvP. So it would be a bomb engi using fields. You are basically losing a slot for being invulnerable but unable to attack. I’d rather use shield 5.

Vigor = is ok but really only if traited unless you count RNG as a valid way to get vigor?

Blocks, we have 1 and if we use the other then again, not a turret engi. True, necro’s don’t have blocks.

The point is that the engineer and necro have access to a lot of things when traited and built specific for those boons. The Engineer has MORE options but still is locked into a specific build. I would say that Engineers may have more BUILDS than necros but necros are still better than engineers at condition cleansing/building. If I were a necro fighting a turret engineer, I would focus on making my DS 4 as powerful as possible and nuke the point. Blood is power, well of power on point, pop DS for stability, hit 4. Clear conditions while maintaining damage. About as good as you can while taking down their turrets.

Kody.3289:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Cynz.9437:

so according to gate assassin, any single target classes with low range should just uninstall and don’t pvp…. great idea

and this is massive issue with pvp in this game – it has only one game mode which heavily favors bunkers mindlessly spamming aoe on point

either aoe and ai needs massive nerfs or pvp in this game needs different game mode where it is not just engis and bunkers guards everywhere

oh, what i find even more funny is how engis tell you to destroy turrets, oh yeah GL with that with all the reflects and CC they throw at you while you are at it

Not at all! In fact, only two people on our comp are turret engis. Generally the other three are me (celestial nades), a burster and a condi. It just so happens that condi fits really well with engis so we get another healing turret. I am NOT going to be standing on point, nor is any of the other damage if we know what’s good for us. That is what single target melee ranged people can do. Murder the damage. Turret engis don’t actually do that much damage, regardless of what people say. Rocket turret, the strongest turret damage wise in the game, only hits for like 2.2k at the very maximum. It doesn’t have very much health either.

Really the turrets are a form of pressure, not high impossible to deal with damage. It’s like when warriors put down a black hole sized fire field with longbow. Or when a support staff ele uses meteor shower.

that is so not true. 2 turret engis make it nearly impossible for me to stand on point as an AH guardian.

Are you unhappy you can’t 2v1 against 2 of these “OP” turret engies?

That’s your argument?

lunyboy.8672:

Kody.3289:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Cynz.9437:

so according to gate assassin, any single target classes with low range should just uninstall and don’t pvp…. great idea

and this is massive issue with pvp in this game – it has only one game mode which heavily favors bunkers mindlessly spamming aoe on point

either aoe and ai needs massive nerfs or pvp in this game needs different game mode where it is not just engis and bunkers guards everywhere

oh, what i find even more funny is how engis tell you to destroy turrets, oh yeah GL with that with all the reflects and CC they throw at you while you are at it

Not at all! In fact, only two people on our comp are turret engis. Generally the other three are me (celestial nades), a burster and a condi. It just so happens that condi fits really well with engis so we get another healing turret. I am NOT going to be standing on point, nor is any of the other damage if we know what’s good for us. That is what single target melee ranged people can do. Murder the damage. Turret engis don’t actually do that much damage, regardless of what people say. Rocket turret, the strongest turret damage wise in the game, only hits for like 2.2k at the very maximum. It doesn’t have very much health either.

Really the turrets are a form of pressure, not high impossible to deal with damage. It’s like when warriors put down a black hole sized fire field with longbow. Or when a support staff ele uses meteor shower.

that is so not true. 2 turret engis make it nearly impossible for me to stand on point as an AH guardian.

Are you unhappy you can’t 2v1 against 2 of these “OP” turret engies?

That’s your argument?

in a 4v4 team fight i cant stand on point because of 2 peoples dmg that is never ending unless the turrets are destroyed (which in fact happens fairly quickly,but still not fast enough to stop a full cap)

@Yujin: I asked for a second time not because I couldn’t read it or understand it.. I was making sure that that is what he wanted to say and gave him a chance to change what he said. I’ve read both of your comments through.

None of what you said really shows in length how the two classes are balanced to one another… aside from “certain builds offer certain things”. My point isn’t that I disagree with that, it’s that when you actually look at what you’re saying, you yourself are not taking into account everything

In your example about spike damage in lich form (which is a common complaint for some reason), this can occur only once every 3 minutes during a match and if you have played a power necro you’d also note that its usually even longer in between based on the conditions you face. So what I’m saying is that you are being more black and white about the balance than I am.

@Thiefz: I understand that necro’s can use stability and at a higher rate than even most classes.. Thats not even the issue. The issue is that the stability, where it is located as far as build, is pretty useless. First of all, its not a stun breaker, which is pretty important. Secondly, If you were to actually use your DS in that way then that’s literally all you’re doing in that build. So this makes that non-viable.

I’d also like to point out that using the stealth pot is easily splashable in a turret build since I’ve seen plenty of turret engi’s include it in theirs.

We also left out invulnerability which is pretty important not only for survivability but also stomping and reviving.

I am well aware of the aspects that relate to the mechanics themselves and I simply feel that even a small allowance even to something like invulnerability is lightyears ahead of a class, like a necro, who do not possess something similar.

turret engi is just same broken bullkitten asminionmancer or spiritrager – even worse

anyone who defend gameplay like this dont understand anything bout competive gameplay

how can rly anyone defend bullkitten like this where have to spawn things somewhere and it kill enemys PASSIV

seriously

i bet this patch made the skyhammer designer

no wonder than

TheDevice.2751:

@Yujin: I asked for a second time not because I couldn’t read it or understand it.. I was making sure that that is what he wanted to say and gave him a chance to change what he said. I’ve read both of your comments through.

None of what you said really shows in length how the two classes are balanced to one another… aside from “certain builds offer certain things”. My point isn’t that I disagree with that, it’s that when you actually look at what you’re saying, you yourself are not taking into account everything

In your example about spike damage in lich form (which is a common complaint for some reason), this can occur only once every 3 minutes during a match and if you have played a power necro you’d also note that its usually even longer in between based on the conditions you face. So what I’m saying is that you are being more black and white about the balance than I am.

@Thiefz: I understand that necro’s can use stability and at a higher rate than even most classes.. Thats not even the issue. The issue is that the stability, where it is located as far as build, is pretty useless. First of all, its not a stun breaker, which is pretty important. Secondly, If you were to actually use your DS in that way then that’s literally all you’re doing in that build. So this makes that non-viable.

I’d also like to point out that using the stealth pot is easily splashable in a turret build since I’ve seen plenty of turret engi’s include it in theirs.

We also left out invulnerability which is pretty important not only for survivability but also stomping and reviving.

I am well aware of the aspects that relate to the mechanics themselves and I simply feel that even a small allowance even to something like invulnerability is lightyears ahead of a class, like a necro, who do not possess something similar.

First and again, don’t mention about balance. I’m not going to talk about it since I don’t feel like discussing it with you. Not subjugating myself to more dribbling and quibbling than what you’re already providing. Thiefz already provided concrete answers and yet you dismiss the fact that Engineers can’t be every thing at the same time in a given match. You’re treating the engineer as some imaginary class that can bring everything into battle all at once but as thiefz and other people mentioned require to go into specific builds. It’s like saying that a diamond skin ele can ignore conditions while doing a lot of DPS.

With regards to the lich form, I have traited it properly and I can tell you it can crit warriors for 3.5k-4k per shot when used properly and turn a battle on a point around very quickly. Saying that it’s once every 3 minutes is like complaining that supply crates is also once every 3 minutes as well.

You’re free to disagree what people are saying; regardless, I’m done discussing things with you. I know for a fact that you’re just going to go on and on without understanding what people are saying, while perpetuating the engineer as some mythical class that brings everything for their party or team. Suppose you got bored about bashing on thieves and warriors, while praising the necro based on your post history?

Oh and finally, you’re telling Thiefz that turret engineers have Elixir S? That’s hilarious and you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. Please L2P (seriously little soloq history and no team q history), L2 read and L2 write (barely understandable with incoherent arguments). Thanks.

Look, I see what happens, you focus on a build and get frustrated. That’s fine. I get frustrated at Mesmers. ALL THE TIME! What I’m trying to say is that for your play style, necro it seems, you won’t hard counter the engineer. The elementalist or thief can hard counter the engi. Rock beats scissors, etc.

Engineers have a lot but if you want to focus on the stun breaks, necros have the same amount of stun breakers as engis. Hmm..interesting, i don’t have a stun breaker in my PvP build…anyway. Probably because I blind them when I see them coming. On my necro I always run well of power but that’s just me. I like aoe/holding points rather than roaming. As for the comment about the DS build, a one trick build can beat a one trick pony build which was my point about Turret Engis, you lose a lot of versatility to hold that point. The key about an over powered build is “Is it powerful in all situations?” Our point, as engineers, is that it’s not because it’s a stationary build. You can’t cap mid and then run far and then run back to mid to hold points. If we were talking about HGH grenades..perhaps. Those builds were versatile and powerful. high mobility plus high DPS with group support? Yes.

The problem is that if you see an engi, you’re not sure if it’s a turret or if it’s a roamer and they play completely differently. One you CC the other you AoE. My advice is that necro’s should move away from MM and go back to powermancer. Right now the other necro is terror and obviously that game mode doesn’t work on objects you can’t fear.

OOOO, how about spirit weapon guardians vs, spirit rangers, vs mm necros, vs illusion mesmers. The poor warriors, elementalists, and thieves will be left out.

This thread shows perfectly why we aren’t going to have nice things, ever.
Instead of telling shortly that turret engie is the current most OP and bullkitten class in conquest because of a) huge excess of CC/knockbacks; b) huge passive damage from AI (dont forget to take parrot and elite!); c) too much surviability for summoner class; you are make huge walls of unrelated bullkitten and demagogic teoricraft. Good job and I wish you luck with someone from a-net reading this.

@Yuijin Lol ok full of ad hominem and misinformation. I won’t resort to looking at your post history or say ironically fail insults like “L2 read and L2 write”. I read and write just fine thanks. And you can get more than 4k crits out of a lich form if you trait properly. Try not to go schooling me on that mkay dad

Taking elixer S in a turret build isn’t inconceivable. I don’t know if you are aware of that or not. But besides that lets look at what a turret engi can take to the game since you would rather throw around childish dribble even after I’ve asked you to provide specifics:

Well lets just go Rifle with Healing, Flame, Thumper and Rocket Turret [2 / 0 / 6 / 6 / 0] with rabid (doesnt matter too much) sound ok?

So lets go over all the things they have access to:

Rifle
Low projectile finisher on R1, Immobilize on R2, Knockback / Condition cleanse on R4, Leap finisher on R5

Turrets combined with Experimental Turrets trait (10s aoe boon interval)
Flame – might/ smoke screen applies smoke field on active/ detonate applies blast finisher.
Thumper -protection/ causes cripple/ creates blast finisher on active and on detonate.
Rocket – retaliation, active causes knockdown, detonate causes blast finisher
Healing – vigor, regen on OC, and blast finisher on detonate

so far = x4 blast finisher, leap finisher, low projectile finisher, smoke field, water field, condition cleanse, x2 knockback, might, vigor, protection, retaliation,

Toolbelt
Flame – applies fire field
Thumper – stun break+ blast finisher
Healing – regen

Traits are pretty simple
x3 Knockback (per destroyed turret)
protection / elixer S or blindness. and we already covered experimental turrets.

The only boon you don’t have is Aegis.
You have burning, bleed, cripple, blind, vuln and immobilize

Your combos give you, Fire armor, Might, Burning, regen, blindness, Healing and Stealth.

Would you like to know what a MM has?

Romek.4201:

turret engi is just same broken bullkitten asminionmancer or spiritrager – even worse

anyone who defend gameplay like this dont understand anything bout competive gameplay

how can rly anyone defend bullkitten like this where have to spawn things somewhere and it kill enemys PASSIV

seriously

i bet this patch made the skyhammer designer

no wonder than

Ranger spirits don’t kill anything passively except the sun spirit (applies burning on your attacks, which was nerfed twice already). Ranger spirits are more team defensive utility than offensive utility with passive boon generation – but they deal absolutely no dmg themselves passively and an elite that resses teamates, condition removal and heals. How can anybody even compare ranger spirits with turret passive dmg dealing? Turrets also have like 5x more hp than a spirit. Ranger is sub-par because kids cried about spirit builds which is only build a ranger has atm , and even then is sub-par and mid-tier. I find it hilarious when people compare turret engi and mm necro to ranger spirits when ranger spirits are completely for a different purpose than them and also provide no ai dmg whatsoever. They’re annoying because they clutter the screen, yes, but that’s about it.

Either way this is a l2p issue , learn how to beat them and quit whining. Like kirito said, condition dmg. Enough said.

blitzkrieg.2451:

Romek.4201:

turret engi is just same broken bullkitten asminionmancer or spiritrager – even worse

anyone who defend gameplay like this dont understand anything bout competive gameplay

how can rly anyone defend bullkitten like this where have to spawn things somewhere and it kill enemys PASSIV

seriously

i bet this patch made the skyhammer designer

no wonder than

Ranger spirits don’t kill anything passively except the sun spirit (applies burning on your attacks, which was nerfed twice already). Ranger spirits are more team defensive utility than offensive utility with passive boon generation – but they deal absolutely no dmg themselves passively and an elite that resses teamates, condition removal and heals. How can anybody even compare ranger spirits with turret passive dmg dealing? Turrets also have like 5x more hp than a spirit. Ranger is sub-par because kids cried about spirit builds which is only build a ranger has atm , and even then is sub-par and mid-tier. I find it hilarious when people compare turret engi and mm necro to ranger spirits when ranger spirits are completely for a different purpose than them and also provide no ai dmg whatsoever. They’re annoying because they clutter the screen, yes, but that’s about it.

Either way this is a l2p issue , learn how to beat them and quit whining. Like kirito said, condition dmg. Enough said.

would say its more an l2read or l2useBrain issue

i said nothing bout what is strong and what is not

• the problem with “AI” is it is PASSIV DAMAGE and it clutters the screen with USELESS INFO

in a game where you have to react only on visual effects and animations (you get no other info) it is a broken design to spam the gameplay with all this AI stuff and now even more with Turrets for engis

in all pvp matches you can see now more ai mobs than players

i dont care hwen spirits do not enough dmg to be op – seriously
problem is its ai kitten this game dont need – why have there to be spirits and not just buffs on the rangers with same effect?

i bet sooon in next pvp patch(lol i talk bout the 2015 one^^) they will make warrior banners running around and kicking people, thief guild will be permanent and will be 15 mobs and called thief zerg, ele can spawn all ele mobs at same time

ye than they are done with this i guess – AIwars 2 and streams advertised with Who cares for the 5 palyers when can have 50 ai mobs fight eachother

remove turrets give us condi removal. kk thnx

Lupanic.6502:

remove turrets give us condi removal. kk thnx

I would take this deal.

I was on a point trying to decap (I have only one turret, thank you very much) and was facing a minion master with the parrot.

I wish my turrets could move, I would totally run a turret build then.

So, I play a turret engi build when I’m pugging up in teamQ tpvp (elsewise I prefer triple kit/double kit builds). Here is what I have noticed, even in high tier play (I’m current ~rank 200 on leaderboards):
1) People just don’t attack the turrets. They try to grind down the engi fast. However, any compentent engi will be able to dodge/block (if using p/s)/regen while they blow CDs. I’ve seen necros pop lich form and then try to just deal me damage. Most points have places to LOS when dodges are down.
2) People put AoE, but they put it right on the center of the point. This may force the engi off the point, but does little to hinder the sustained dps.

What are the turret engi weaknesses:
1) lack of lots of condi clear. Some turret engi’s also run elixir gun which gives them a bit more, but in general they can only clear a few condi’s every ~20 seconds or so.
2) Lack of stability. They may have a stun breaker if they are using elixir gun, or if their thumper turret is down. However, with the thumper turret toolkit you only get ~1 second of stability.

Turret play is fairly passive, however there are still quite a few turret engi’s out there which rely too much on their turrets. Take one or two of them down, and they’re toast. It’s a bit like the MM/spirit ranger builds. There are a lot of who run them, they’re annoying builds, but many players become dependent on the AI rather than their own skill, which you can then exploit to beat them.

While I don’t think there OP per say, I do not enjoy fighting AI. If I did I would go to PvE. Turret Engie removes the fun from matches, and I can’t imagine playing such passive builds is overly fun either.
Fun is why we’re PvPing in the first place, isnt it?

TheDevice.2751:

Rifle
Low projectile finisher on R1, Immobilize on R2, Knockback / Condition cleanse on R4, Leap finisher on R5

Turrets combined with Experimental Turrets trait (10s aoe boon interval)
Flame – might/ smoke screen applies smoke field on active/ detonate applies blast finisher.
Thumper -protection/ causes cripple/ creates blast finisher on active and on detonate.
Rocket – retaliation, active causes knockdown, detonate causes blast finisher
Healing – vigor, regen on OC, and blast finisher on detonate

so far = x4 blast finisher, leap finisher, low projectile finisher, smoke field, water field, condition cleanse, x2 knockback, might, vigor, protection, retaliation,

Toolbelt
Flame – applies fire field
Thumper – stun break+ blast finisher
Healing – regen

Traits are pretty simple
x3 Knockback (per destroyed turret)
protection / elixer S or blindness. and we already covered experimental turrets.

The only boon you don’t have is Aegis.
You have burning, bleed, cripple, blind, vuln and immobilize

Your combos give you, Fire armor, Might, Burning, regen, blindness, Healing and Stealth.

Mate, actually play the class and THEN tell me what an engi can do in the normal course of a standard skill rotation.

Some skills are just not accessible when you need them, some combos are a waste of a combo finishers, some are on a HUGE cd and therefore marginally effective once in a fight.

I can go through all the classes and builds and enumerate their access to all their fields/boons/condis and it still wouldn’t reflect how effective the build is. It’s just not a viable way of gauging how good a build is because it doesn’t take into account accessibility, practicality, and cool downs.

Romek.4201:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Romek.4201:

turret engi is just same broken bullkitten asminionmancer or spiritrager – even worse

anyone who defend gameplay like this dont understand anything bout competive gameplay

how can rly anyone defend bullkitten like this where have to spawn things somewhere and it kill enemys PASSIV

seriously

i bet this patch made the skyhammer designer

no wonder than

Ranger spirits don’t kill anything passively except the sun spirit (applies burning on your attacks, which was nerfed twice already). Ranger spirits are more team defensive utility than offensive utility with passive boon generation – but they deal absolutely no dmg themselves passively and an elite that resses teamates, condition removal and heals. How can anybody even compare ranger spirits with turret passive dmg dealing? Turrets also have like 5x more hp than a spirit. Ranger is sub-par because kids cried about spirit builds which is only build a ranger has atm , and even then is sub-par and mid-tier. I find it hilarious when people compare turret engi and mm necro to ranger spirits when ranger spirits are completely for a different purpose than them and also provide no ai dmg whatsoever. They’re annoying because they clutter the screen, yes, but that’s about it.

Either way this is a l2p issue , learn how to beat them and quit whining. Like kirito said, condition dmg. Enough said.

would say its more an l2read or l2useBrain issue

i said nothing bout what is strong and what is not

• the problem with “AI” is it is PASSIV DAMAGE and it clutters the screen with USELESS INFO

in a game where you have to react only on visual effects and animations (you get no other info) it is a broken design to spam the gameplay with all this AI stuff and now even more with Turrets for engis

in all pvp matches you can see now more ai mobs than players

i dont care hwen spirits do not enough dmg to be op – seriously
problem is its ai kitten this game dont need – why have there to be spirits and not just buffs on the rangers with same effect?

i bet sooon in next pvp patch(lol i talk bout the 2015 one^^) they will make warrior banners running around and kicking people, thief guild will be permanent and will be 15 mobs and called thief zerg, ele can spawn all ele mobs at same time

ye than they are done with this i guess – AIwars 2 and streams advertised with Who cares for the 5 palyers when can have 50 ai mobs fight eachother

Spirits aren’t passive dmg though, it’s passive boon generation. So why lump spirits with engineers if you’re referring to passive ai damage? Spirits literally provide no additional damage passively themselves outside of 2s burn proc (nerfed twice already) which is based on your active attacks. They generate boons for the team and some of them have active effects (when ACTIVELY pressed) that deal damage.

You bring aoe damage for spirits then, quit complaining and counter. Stop whining and asking for nerfs, play the kitteng game and COUNTER it. Much like you would either destroy the turrets quick first from distance and/or load the engi with condis as they lack condi clear. Counter, stop crying.

So sick of people kitten and complain when the counters are right in front of their face and they’re too lazy to do it, kittening and complaining for nerfs is easier in this game. It’s disgusting.

Want to know why turret engis are irrelevant against top tier teams? They don’t come to the forums to kitten and complain, they play the build and discuss tactics on easy counters and then they, guess what, counter it because they know how to deal with them by that point. Get good and stop kittening.

Am I playing a different game? Haven’t fought 1 turret Engineer in my last 20 matches, and all those I have fought suck, play the build to carry them, and die to my conditions very quickly. Where’s the problem? The build literally gets destroyed by my bombs or one warrior because most Engineers are stupid enough to stick all their turrets on the point rather than out at their 1500 range. I hope a dev sees this and realises it’s not the build but the players fighting them, lets face it Engineer is the second most nerfed class behind Ranger right now (to the people saying Engineer hasn’t been nerfed then you have only played this game for 6 months).

Benjamin.8237:

Am I playing a different game? Haven’t fought 1 turret Engineer in my last 20 matches, and all those I have fought suck, play the build to carry them, and die to my conditions very quickly. Where’s the problem? The build literally gets destroyed by my bombs or one warrior because most Engineers are stupid enough to stick all their turrets on the point rather than out at their 1500 range. I hope a dev sees this and realises it’s not the build but the players fighting them, lets face it Engineer is the second most nerfed class behind Ranger right now (to the people saying Engineer hasn’t been nerfed then you have only played this game for 6 months).

not top 1000 so honestly dont know how you can speak

Romek.4201:

kirito.4138:

5. L2P, just kill the engi.

sorry but defending something like this is jsut silly

turret engi is same horrible thing as monionmaster just spawn all the crap and run around like an idiot

seriously

i gave up now on this game

If you can’t deal with minion necro, it’s L2P issue on your part.
Oh wait, you gave up already instead trying to learn.
What rank are you then?

Rentapest.6503:

kirito.4138:

5. L2P, just kill the engi.

That’s a stupid suggestion.

What’s to say you can actually GET to the Engineer? I’m close … nvm snare spam from net turret … wait I’m close … nvm repeatedly thrown back by knockbacks … wait I’m close … nvm he’s invulnerable now … I’m close again … nvm he’ leaped away and now I’m slowed …. I’m close … nvm snared again …. repeat the cycle over until your HP is gone from the rifle/rocket turrets.

kill the turrets is hard ???
over 30 sec on CD on turrets
take stability
conditions kill fast engy, who use turrets

I think a lot of people underestimate turret engi because most people playing it are running inflexible builds. 4 turrets and crate with reflect and rabid is terrible.

I have been running 2/0/6/6/0 cleric rifle monk runes with healing turret, bomb kit, thumper, and rocket. It is a hyper flexible build with healbombs, bomb radius, turret armor, turret self repair, turret boons and strong self protection. Very easy to sustain 800 area hps with regen and bombs plus boons so it is a strong teamfighter. Backpoint defense is huge, and you can rapidly heal anyone who peels out by bombing them and slapping regen on with toolkit or healing turret. It is also a competent far assaulted as it has thumper, big old bomb and rifle 4. You can fight anywhere and even leave your self sufficient turrets with a teamfight while still holding home.

I’ve been playing this top 100 solo and team queue when my team is on. It is a devastatingly good build with surprisingly good dps from bombs and turrets while putting out 2 healing signets worth of healing.

This build also nearly autowins vs any other ai due to the sustained area dps, goodbye minions, turrets, spirits or clone spam.