Guild Wars 2

Try fighting a good engi with the hambow build. I just fought a really good engi during my pvp daily I was on my warrior and the only way to kill this guy was 2v1. He was really good. Violence jack was his name.

To the OP:

This is why i said to be the qq users to post their vídeo being beated by warriors.

Right now you have two vídeos with people playing warrior. When the warrior wins people say that the other class was played with skill but the warrior dont give them a chance.
When the warrior losses its because the warrior its terrible and not because he was outplayed. I saw in the second vídeo the thief was skilled enough to control the warrior pretty good.
In the first vídeo you see a good pvp player (he knows what to expect from other classes) so he uses his skills in the right moment so the fight looks a lot more easier. I cannot tell that from their oponents because we cannot see their gameplay.

When people plays warrior we cannot see the build their oponent its using, so we cannot see if he had time to react or not, if his skills were on CD, what were their utilities and so on. People need to post their vídeos against warriors imo.

silentnight warrior.2714:

To the OP:

This is why i said to be the qq users to post their vídeo being beated by warriors.

Right now you have two vídeos with people playing warrior. When the warrior wins people say that the other class was played with skill but the warrior dont give them a chance.
When the warrior losses its because the warrior its terrible and not because he was outplayed. I saw in the second vídeo the thief was skilled enough to control the warrior pretty good.
In the first vídeo you see a good pvp player (he knows what to expect from other classes) so he uses his skills in the right moment so the fight looks a lot more easier. I cannot tell that from their oponents because we cannot see their gameplay.

When people plays warrior we cannot see the build their oponent its using, so we cannot see if he had time to react or not, if his skills were on CD, what were their utilities and so on. People need to post their vídeos against warriors imo.

I’ve been saying this for days. I’ve only managed to see a few generic warrior faceroll videos in defense of all the qq.

This man has it right. Post your videos people

Enjoyluck.2618:

Here is proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDhWCwlXX20

To comment on this…. The five warrior team went up against FML later in the night and got destroyed by FML.

Dont get me wrong I too believe the warrior could go with some changes but this should not be used as a benchmark for their state.

Edit: Worded that post poorly.

Blue team in that vid were going strong up until 5 minutes in when whatever synergy they had fell apart due to poor choices. they could have easily split up the warrior team instead on running into the meat grinder.

BLUna.7928:

Enjoyluck.2618:

Here is proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDhWCwlXX20

To comment on this…. The team that the five warriors were up against was at an extremely lower skill margin compared to the players from the five warrior team (i know some of the players from that team). The five warrior team went up against FML later in the night and got destroyed by FML.

Dont get me wrong I too believe the warrior could go with some changes but this should not be used as a benchmark for their state.

zireq here, that game should of been closer if our kitten mid “bunker” didn’t put on carrion that game.

Thanks gaar!

i watched the mean kitty song video instead. cat videos are so addictive. i can watch them for hours.

What do you think your math or spreadsheet proves? It doesn’t take into account what other classes have that warrior doesn’t have. It only takes raw healing data into account. Who cares that guardian gets protection or thief gets stealth or many of those heals also have secondary effects, right? Give me a break. Your math is completely biased because it only takes healing comparison into account. I have said this to you multiple times now. Do you not read any posts but your own?

If you’re literally spamming your heal every cooldown, you’re still not going to be reaching the same healing output as a warrior. Does that not strike you as a little op? Guardians get what, a block every 30s combined with a really low coefficient/base heal? They do have passive regen/f2 to comprimise for this yeah. Eles don’t meet the same sustain spamming a 3s channel every 15 seconds. That’s 20% downtime healing over a minute and still not reaching the same sustain. Sure, you remove condis when you heal but if the warrior’s poisoned for the duration it’s going to be 24% less effective than ether renewal, but then again signet can’t be interrupted/doesn’t have to be cast. As I said previously somewhere the only heal that can really compare to the warriors is healing turret due to the 2 condition removal/regen/15sec cooldown. But then again, you add some random guy giving the warrior regen, the warrior using f1 and voila. Maintaining some ridiculous healing by doing… nothing?
If you’re going to have such a passive skill in the game you can’t give it such high base numbers with a fairly high coefficient. It needs to be low base with a high coefficient so it rewards healing power going into builds. Otherwise there’s no diversity and what’s the point of running mending/healing surge over it? If you can’t comprehend what I’m trying to tell you then I really have no idea how to explain it better, I’m sorry.

Oblivion.8307:

If you’re literally spamming your heal every cooldown, you’re still not going to be reaching the same healing output as a warrior. Does that not strike you as a little op? Guardians get what, a block every 30s combined with a really low coefficient/base heal? They do have passive regen/f2 to comprimise for this yeah. Eles don’t meet the same sustain spamming a 3s channel every 15 seconds. That’s 20% downtime healing over a minute and still not reaching the same sustain. Sure, you remove condis when you heal but if the warrior’s poisoned for the duration it’s going to be 24% less effective than ether renewal, but then again signet can’t be interrupted/doesn’t have to be cast. As I said previously somewhere the only heal that can really compare to the warriors is healing turret due to the 2 condition removal/regen/15sec cooldown. But then again, you add some random guy giving the warrior regen, the warrior using f1 and voila. Maintaining some ridiculous healing by doing… nothing?
If you’re going to have such a passive skill in the game you can’t give it such high base numbers with a fairly high coefficient. It needs to be low base with a high coefficient so it rewards healing power going into builds. Otherwise there’s no diversity and what’s the point of running mending/healing surge over it? If you can’t comprehend what I’m trying to tell you then I really have no idea how to explain it better, I’m sorry.

Pot, meet kettle.

first video first 5 sec fear me into stability!
for heaven’s sake saveface and go away already guy.

cottage.3274:

first video first 5 sec fear me into stability!
for heaven’s sake saveface and go away already guy.

The tournaments are meant to see me gradually get better as I compete more and more, that video was from my first week of doing sPvP. So where’s that video of an overpowered Warrior?

Ashanor.5319:

You have no “proof”. Unless proof is a soloQ player playing a hammer warrior and owning a few unsuspecting (and not that good of) players in the hammer of skyhammer, a place that is WELL KNOWN for being an awesome spot for warriors and cc since the map was released. Once again, you are trying to abuse an issue with a map to prove a point about a class. People used to run hammer and cc builds and just sit in there all day, even before hammer was considered part of the warrior meta.

You people are so ridiculous I just can’t stop responding to your troll attempts. Must have self control.

Zanryu.3417:

Kind of like the one where he only actually had one fight that would even slightly demonstrate what people are talking about, and even then it really didn’t?

Legit.

Are you kidding me or what?
You have to watch the whole video, not only those 2-3 minutes Sensotix have mentioned. That isn’t the only 2vs1 situation he managed to win, that was the most lampant example because he won that 2vs1 in about 10-20s or even less.

Then you called me a troll?
I’m done with you guys. You are too much full of kitten to have a discussion with.

Zanryu.3417:

I’m fairly certain I asked for people to post whatever build they feel is OP. Post the build you believe to be overpowered, every specific detail. Traits, Sigils, Runes, Amulet, Weapons, Armor Dyes, Hair Color, everything. Seriously. Tell me which exact build it is so I can use it so as to avoid the “ya dun use da bestest build so ur stuff iz no gud” argument.

Or.. you know. Stop posting.

Those builds have been posted so many times that I’m under the idea that you are just trying to fool us.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-ss-o;1NKVP0f4NLVQ0;9;59T-T;13;0189;157AC-V4;2sV2DsV2D5kD
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-sBxF-0-NKVP0f4ZKVQ0;9;49-TT-2;308A48A;1Uok67;1Uwl6Uwl66NN

I’m posting them again, since you apparently aren’t capable to search them for yourself on the internet.
You can run the first build with Soldier amulet too, for more kittened effects.

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

I’m fairly certain I asked for people to post whatever build they feel is OP. Post the build you believe to be overpowered, every specific detail. Traits, Sigils, Runes, Amulet, Weapons, Armor Dyes, Hair Color, everything. Seriously. Tell me which exact build it is so I can use it so as to avoid the “ya dun use da bestest build so ur stuff iz no gud” argument.

Or.. you know. Stop posting.

Those builds have been posted so many times that I’m under the idea that you are just trying to fool us.

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-ss-o;1NKVP0f4NLVQ0;9;59T-T;13;0189;157AC-V4;2sV2DsV2D5kD
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-sBxF-0-NKVP0f4ZKVQ0;9;49-TT-2;308A48A;1Uok67;1Uwl6Uwl66NN

I’m posting them again, since you apparently aren’t capable to search them for yourself on the internet.

My Hambow build is similar to the one you posted, the main difference being I tend to use a Barbarian Amulet as opposed to Berserker and slot Endure Pain rather than Dolyak Signet.

So.. I’ll toss on a Berserker Amulet and Dolyak Signet then call it a day? Yeesh.

Zanryu.3417:

My Hambow build is similar to the one you posted, the main difference being I tend to use a Barbarian Amulet as opposed to Berserker and slot Endure Pain rather than Dolyak Signet.

So.. I’ll toss on a Berserker Amulet and Dolyak Signet then call it a day? Yeesh.

Barbarian amulet?!
You know that it is hard that someone will take your videos seriously until you learn the basics of the combat in this game, right?

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

My Hambow build is similar to the one you posted, the main difference being I tend to use a Barbarian Amulet as opposed to Berserker and slot Endure Pain rather than Dolyak Signet.

So.. I’ll toss on a Berserker Amulet and Dolyak Signet then call it a day? Yeesh.

Barbarian amulet?!
You know that it is hard that someone will take your videos seriously until you learn the basics of the combat in this game, right?

Zanryu.3417:

I know what barbarian amulet is and I know that it is an horrible choice.

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

I know what barbarian amulet is and I know that it is an horrible choice.

Bersker Amulet: 1,905 Power/3,016 Attack Power
47% Crit Chance/ 50% Critical Damage
21,662 HP

Barbarian Amulet: 16,76 Power/2,787 Attack Power
47% Crit Chacne/35% Critical Damage
26,802 HP

I lose out on 229 Attack Power and 15% Critical Damage but gain 5,140 HP. Why is that such a horrible thing?

Jax.5261:

People would actually get worse by watching your videos.
Posting these are 100% POINTLESS, your mechanics are too awful to prove any of your bad points (bar bad players will lose because they’re bad).

You don’t seem angry at all. EEEEYEWWWWWW.

Zanryu.3417:

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

I know what barbarian amulet is and I know that it is an horrible choice.

Bersker Amulet: 1,905 Power/3,016 Attack Power
47% Crit Chance/ 50% Critical Damage
21,662 HP

Barbarian Amulet: 16,76 Power/2,787 Attack Power
47% Crit Chacne/35% Critical Damage
26,802 HP

I lose out on 229 Attack Power and 15% Critical Damage but gain 5,140 HP. Why is that such a horrible thing?

Jax.5261:

People would actually get worse by watching your videos.
Posting these are 100% POINTLESS, your mechanics are too awful to prove any of your bad points (bar bad players will lose because they’re bad).

You don’t seem angry at all. EEEEYEWWWWWW.

Not entirely sure how I’m meant to be angry?
Maybe frustrated at how poorly you actually play?

Like “gah how can anybody be that bad, this frustrates me!”

Jax.5261:

Zanryu.3417:

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

I know what barbarian amulet is and I know that it is an horrible choice.

Bersker Amulet: 1,905 Power/3,016 Attack Power
47% Crit Chance/ 50% Critical Damage
21,662 HP

Barbarian Amulet: 16,76 Power/2,787 Attack Power
47% Crit Chacne/35% Critical Damage
26,802 HP

I lose out on 229 Attack Power and 15% Critical Damage but gain 5,140 HP. Why is that such a horrible thing?

Jax.5261:

People would actually get worse by watching your videos.
Posting these are 100% POINTLESS, your mechanics are too awful to prove any of your bad points (bar bad players will lose because they’re bad).

You don’t seem angry at all. EEEEYEWWWWWW.

Not entirely sure how I’m meant to be angry?
Maybe frustrated at how poorly you actually play?

Like “gah how can anybody be that bad, this frustrates me!”

It’s strange how you seem to be the vocal minority who believes I’m a horrible Warrior. You, Sorrow, and that Ahuba guy. This isn’t a thread about my skills as a Warrior though.

Zanryu.3417:

Jax.5261:

Zanryu.3417:

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

I know what barbarian amulet is and I know that it is an horrible choice.

Bersker Amulet: 1,905 Power/3,016 Attack Power
47% Crit Chance/ 50% Critical Damage
21,662 HP

Barbarian Amulet: 16,76 Power/2,787 Attack Power
47% Crit Chacne/35% Critical Damage
26,802 HP

I lose out on 229 Attack Power and 15% Critical Damage but gain 5,140 HP. Why is that such a horrible thing?

Jax.5261:

People would actually get worse by watching your videos.
Posting these are 100% POINTLESS, your mechanics are too awful to prove any of your bad points (bar bad players will lose because they’re bad).

You don’t seem angry at all. EEEEYEWWWWWW.

Not entirely sure how I’m meant to be angry?
Maybe frustrated at how poorly you actually play?

Like “gah how can anybody be that bad, this frustrates me!”

It’s strange how you seem to be the vocal minority who believes I’m a horrible Warrior. You, Sorrow, and that Ahuba guy. This isn’t a thread about my skills as a Warrior though.

err sorry what?
I can’t stress this enough that was the worst gameplay I’ve ever watched.
Also, go back to the other thread you posted this week, you’ve got hundreds of people thinking you’re terrible. Maths is apparently too hard.

Zanryu.3417:

sorrow.2364:

Zanryu.3417:

I know what barbarian amulet is and I know that it is an horrible choice.

Bersker Amulet: 1,905 Power/3,016 Attack Power
47% Crit Chance/ 50% Critical Damage
21,662 HP

Barbarian Amulet: 16,76 Power/2,787 Attack Power
47% Crit Chacne/35% Critical Damage
26,802 HP

I lose out on 229 Attack Power and 15% Critical Damage but gain 5,140 HP. Why is that such a horrible thing?

Damage Formula

As those two said:

You know that it is hard that someone will take your videos seriously until you learn the basics of the combat in this game, right?

Jax.5261:

Maths is apparently too hard.

Zanryu.3417:

It’s strange how you seem to be the vocal minority who believes I’m a horrible Warrior. You, Sorrow, and that Ahuba guy. This isn’t a thread about my skills as a Warrior though.

We aren’t the vocal minority, pretty much everyone thinks that.

I don’t want to blame you for not being a top level player, I’m not the best player too and I really don’t care how good you are as much as I care about what you say.

I’m blaming you because you want to put the question into “video evidence”, despite many people have said that they are not valid and even when someone else have answered your video evidence, you keep considering your video more valid compared to the one Sensotix has posted (which is a well known and good player), despite the fact that many people have said that you aren’t a valid sample because you seems to lack the game familiarity needed to compete at a good level in PvP.

I’m blaming you because you dismissed the mathematical evidences of Phantaram (Oblivion) with horrible arguments.

sorrow.2364:

Ashanor.5319:

So a thief should always have free blinds on a warrior? lol

Do you understand how damaging blind is to a warrior now that you can’t auto attack it off? Thief should have kited until berserker stance was down or left the hammer until it was down, everyone knows the hammer is great place for cc. The thief was bad to try to fight a hammer warrior in a confined space known for being great for hammer warriors since the day the map released (even before hammer was considered decent).

So you’re saying that the thief made the mistake of engaging the warrior? HOW DARE HE?

No he is saying that the hammer room gives a huge advantage to certain classes/builds, and that the thief using his blind field when zerker stance was up was a mistake.

zencow.3651:

Damage Formula

As those two said:

You know that it is hard that someone will take your videos seriously until you learn the basics of the combat in this game, right?

Jax.5261:

Maths is apparently too hard.

I’m supposed to take math lessons from someone who doesn’t realize that it’s actually impossible to have “hundreds” of people who believe I’m bad when the thread in question has 167 total posts? Where people create multiple posts?

sorrow.2364:

We aren’t the vocal minority, pretty much everyone thinks that.

I don’t want to blame you for not being a top level player, I’m not the best player too and I really don’t care how good you are as much as I care about what you say.

I’m blaming you because you want to put the question into “video evidence”, despite many people have said that they are not valid and even when someone else have answered your video evidence, you keep considering your video more valid compared to the one Sensotix has posted (which is a well known and good player), despite the fact that many people have said that you aren’t a valid sample because you seems to lack the game familiarity needed to compete at a good level in PvP.

I’m blaming you because you dismissed the mathematical evidences of Phantaram (Oblivion) with horrible arguments.

I don’t recall actually dismissing his arguments, though I have to agree with some of the arguments against him. The math alone isn’t all that matters, there’s the matter of side effects such as block or stealth. Also, as I’ve mentioned multiple times Healing Signet denies the Warrior of a Burst Heal which can be extremely important in certain situations.

So where did I go wrong in my math? My excuse is that it’s 5 in the morning.

EDIT: I never claimed my video was more valid than his, however I am not going to simply accept what he posts without having a good look at it in the same way nobody seems to accept what I post. Simply having that rank doesn’t entitle him or anyone else to being able to post what they want and having it taken as correct. I posted my thoughts on the video in the same way people posted their thoughts on mine, or should I just tell everyone they shouldn’t discuss anything and have the thread closed? I’ll pass.

It does seem like we are the only ones reading all the arguments does it not, Zanryu? They expect us to read their arguments, but blindy turn an eye to any posts that don’t align with theirs. That isn’t the way to have a discussion. In their minds, warrior is overpowered and nothing we can say or do will change that, so they ignore our extremely valid explanations of game mechanics and why some things are the way they are (such as healing signet being one of the highest raw heals in the game and the reasons behind that).

I said it earlier in the thread, and I’ll repeat it again.

This post is entirely pointless. The testing method is so flawed that any “data” gathered is 100% worthless. There is no element of control, and litte to no allowances for the mind boggling amount of variables one would have to account for if this were to be taken seriously. Thanks to all this, either side of the debate can reasonably use the “data” to support their argument.

The end result? 3 pages (and running) of back and forth arguments, almost entirely based on emotion and personal bias. A complete waste of time for any developer who might stumble upon this thread with hopes it contains helpful information. If players really care about the state of the game, please try and focus your efforts into information, testing and data that can actually aid the developers, rather than something like this.

evilapprentice.6379:

I said it earlier in the thread, and I’ll repeat it again.

This post is entirely pointless. The testing method is so flawed that any “data” gathered is 100% worthless. There is no element of control, and litte to no allowances for the mind boggling amount of variables one would have to account for if this were to be taken seriously. Thanks to all this, either side of the debate can reasonably use the “data” to support their argument.

The end result? 3 pages (and running) of back and forth arguments, almost entirely based on emotion and personal bias. A complete waste of time for any developer who might stumble upon this thread with hopes it contains helpful information. If players really care about the state of the game, please try and focus your efforts into information, testing and data that can actually aid the developers, rather than something like this.

Which is why we tried to ask them to simply post their supporting evidence instead of trying to argue. By the way, I am sure it was the point of many of them to make the thread as convoluted as possible to drown out any reasonable discussions.

/facepaIm.I find it really amusing that so many post their opinions about what is a good warrior and what not, when in fact they all run the same copy paste build.Seriously now hambow users are all terrible warriors.Take UF away from them and they wouldn’t be able to adapt even if facing a sb/lb ranger. What a joke

Ashanor.5319:

evilapprentice.6379:

I said it earlier in the thread, and I’ll repeat it again.

This post is entirely pointless. The testing method is so flawed that any “data” gathered is 100% worthless. There is no element of control, and litte to no allowances for the mind boggling amount of variables one would have to account for if this were to be taken seriously. Thanks to all this, either side of the debate can reasonably use the “data” to support their argument.

The end result? 3 pages (and running) of back and forth arguments, almost entirely based on emotion and personal bias. A complete waste of time for any developer who might stumble upon this thread with hopes it contains helpful information. If players really care about the state of the game, please try and focus your efforts into information, testing and data that can actually aid the developers, rather than something like this.

Which is why we tried to ask them to simply post their supporting evidence instead of trying to argue. By the way, I am sure it was the point of many of them to make the thread as convoluted as possible to drown out any reasonable discussions.

I’m surprised you agree, as you’re one of the worse offenders.

When people post numbers, you reply with a vague “But you aren’t taking everything else into account”, without actually listing what “everything else” is.

You argue from emotion and state conjecture as if it were ironclad fact. You’re dismissive and rude to those who disagree with you, and your posts reek of bias. I get it, you love your class and want to defend it, that’s fine – the problem is you’re trying to come off as impartial when you’re clearly not.

Hopefully, anet has someone better qualified than either you or I to take everything into account (Including all the relevant statistics) and make a choice that’s healthy for the game.

Ashanor.5319:

whyme.3281:

Ashanor.5319:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Zanryu.3417:

Enjoyluck.2618:

Here is proof http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDhWCwlXX20

You know what I saw? Five members of a team playing the same class, but with builds that were different enough that they could still support each other as a team. Isn’t that how it should be? Shouldn’t every class be able to perform every role to at least some degree? Isn’t that a good model to base other class updates on? I wouldn’t call diversity broken. Sure, it makes it a bit difficult to be prepared for each build you could come across, but diversity is a good thing.

You know what I saw? A profession that needs to be nerfed into the ground. Jonathan Sharp said that if you saw team compositions that were running double of a particular profession it was a clear indicator that profession was out of line and needed to be nerfed.

5 Warriors = mega-nerf.

Except it wasn’t a pro team and he was generally referring to multiple players playing the same build. I also don’t agree with his assertion that two of a profession means they are “out of line” personally. For instance, the only reason people anyone would bring two warriors is to counter the multiple condition spammers.

But warrior was never a counter to condition damage, conditions were his weak spot, he was the anti-direct damage class. Se his high health, regen, armor,… no condition cleanses at the beginning. But then he got condition removes in every patch and now he has no weakspot.

Wrong, the warrior was pretty horrid previous to his buffs. He got the condition cleanses because without them warrior really had no staying power. Warriors weakspot is still massive condition spam, it just isn’t as faceroll easy as it once was. If they use healing signet, they have another weak spot in the form of burst damage.

burst damage his weakspot with 20k+ health and high armor? Burst damage that would kill a warrior is lethal to every other class too. Same with condition damage.

I never said, that warrior was fine before that buff, he needed some love, but in my opinion it was the completely wrong direction. Yes, he needed some condition removes but not that much. He has the strongest anti condition skills of all classes.

Some of his skills were buggy at the beginning, they didn’t properly hit, or needed allot of skills to do so (100B). Some love here, that he could properly land his damage on moving targets would have fixed his issues in my opinion.

Here’s a video of two different fights, you can see that we actually struggle to win a team fight or two. Merely being there as a Warrior didn’t turn the tide of the fight to our favor automatically, nor was I landing kill after kill after kill with extremely large amounts of damage.

I’m sure I’ll be called bad yet again, however I still have yet to see any good evidence from the other side of the argument. If anyone has more videos of Warriors destroying people, or better yet of your fights against Warriors, please post them.

In the mean time, here’s a couple of fights I had recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAiLk7hjnJg

Also, Hundred Blades still requires a fair amount of effort to actually land, especially if your opponent runs Stun breakers or Stability.

Your “testing” methodology is horrendous and this thread is largely a waste of space. Zanryu, reading this might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

Seriously, this thread is so full of stupid.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Your “testing” methodology is horrendous and this thread is largely a waste of space. Zanryu, reading this might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

Seriously, this thread is so full of stupid.

I’d love to know why.

I tested damage using a Steady Bow, so the results would be the same each time. I used Arcing Arrow as it does the largest amount of damage when compared to the other Bow skills for a Warrior.

I attacked the Heavy Golem, recorded the results, did the math, and the numbers came out as what you saw. I tested on the other Golems and got the same difference in damage.

I’m not claiming the Amulet I prefer is better for other builds, but for a Hambow build it seems to work out pretty well. The test I did seems pretty solid.

1. Attack a target with a skill of choice using the amulet of choice.
2. Record both base and critical damage. (Chance isn’t factored as the chance is the same with either amulet)
3. Attack the same target with the same skill using the other amulet.
4. Record both base and critical damage.
5. Calculate the difference between base and critical damages respectively.
6. Get whined at on the forums.

There were no variable factors, and this was done without boons. The results I got from the tests I did are as accurate as I could possibly get, seeing as it was done on the exact same target with the exact same skill using the exact same weapon that has a flat damage rate.

I chose the skill with the highest damage in order to more accurately gauge the differences in the results, as well as because under the same conditions other skills won’t be able to match the damage output. The 6,000 was more of an example, as the highest number I’ve hit so far in Tournament play is 5,500 on a Thief. My hits tend to average far lower, even on Light Armor classes.

What test would you prefer to show the difference between amulets? If you’re going to criticize me at least tell me what I did wrong and what I should do instead. It looks to me as if my results are accurate, so if they aren’t show me how and tell me a different test to perform.

Zanryu.3417:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Your “testing” methodology is horrendous and this thread is largely a waste of space. Zanryu, reading this might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

Seriously, this thread is so full of stupid.

I’d love to know why.

Seriously? I thought I laid this all out.

A) Your “skill” is not something we can map to a mathematic function. You could be an awful player, you could be an amazing player – you could be a member of CC – it doesn’t matter, our ability to qualify your level of skill is not based in entirely in reason, but mostly in observation and emotion. This a more minor point (We have to have SOME level of faith in qualifying “skill” to even do this), but if you want to strictly prove something, you look at statistics, not 1 players experience.
B) Fighting random players proves nothing. We have no idea of their skill level, their spec, their utilities, as well as other extraneous factors (Ping, did someone call their name IRL mid fight, etc).
C) We can’t see opposing players specs/amulet/runes/sigils. There are definitely hard and soft matchups in this game. S/D is probably the best spec to face a well played Hambow warrior, and D/P probably the worst (depending on what utilities Hambow brings, of course). Even if we assume the same skill level, the fights can go very differently.
D) Other factors can play a part – Lets say your fighting a player who is very close to you in skill, and is running a spec well suited for fighting yours. Lag, being distracted, or simple human error (pressing the wrong key for example) can determine the outcome of the fight – do we judge whats OP and whats not when we consider those factors? Of course not.

Team fights are just impossible to judge – there are far too many variables to track, any team fight is purely anecdotal.

If you wanted to get the best data possible (not the most accurate, mind you, just the best we as players can possibly attain), you’d have to set up duels with players with provable (defining “provable” is tricky, but possible within these constraints) skill. We’d have to see both players every detail (Spec, runes, sigils, etc), and test a variety of situations – fighting in a decapped point, defend and assault for both sides, skirmishing outside points, etc etc etc. Even then, the data would be highly anecdotal and not fit for making a true judgement call on whether or not a spec was OP.

This is why we have to trust anet to look at statistical data (which normalizes all the outliers above) to make balance decisions.

evilapprentice.6379:

Zanryu.3417:

Chicago Jack.5647:

Your “testing” methodology is horrendous and this thread is largely a waste of space. Zanryu, reading this might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

Seriously, this thread is so full of stupid.

I’d love to know why.

Seriously? I thought I laid this all out.

A) Your “skill” is not something we can map to a mathematic function. You could be an awful player, you could be an amazing player – you could be a member of CC – it doesn’t matter, our ability to qualify your level of skill is not based in entirely in reason, but mostly in observation and emotion. This a more minor point (We have to have SOME level of faith in qualifying “skill” to even do this), but if you want to strictly prove something, you look at statistics, not 1 players experience.
B) Fighting random players proves nothing. We have no idea of their skill level, their spec, their utilities, as well as other extraneous factors (Ping, did someone call their name IRL mid fight, etc).
C) We can’t see opposing players specs/amulet/runes/sigils. There are definitely hard and soft matchups in this game. S/D is probably the best spec to face a well played Hambow warrior, and D/P probably the worst (depending on what utilities Hambow brings, of course). Even if we assume the same skill level, the fights can go very differently.
D) Other factors can play a part – Lets say your fighting a player who is very close to you in skill, and is running a spec well suited for fighting yours. Lag, being distracted, or simple human error (pressing the wrong key for example) can determine the outcome of the fight – do we judge whats OP and whats not when we consider those factors? Of course not.

Team fights are just impossible to judge – there are far too many variables to track, any team fight is purely anecdotal.

If you wanted to get the best data possible (not the most accurate, mind you, just the best we as players can possibly attain), you’d have to set up duels with players with provable (defining “provable” is tricky, but possible within these constraints) skill. We’d have to see both players every detail (Spec, runes, sigils, etc), and test a variety of situations – fighting in a decapped point, defend and assault for both sides, skirmishing outside points, etc etc etc. Even then, the data would be highly anecdotal and not fit for making a true judgement call on whether or not a spec was OP.

This is why we have to trust anet to look at statistical data (which normalizes all the outliers above) to make balance decisions.

In other words, no videos and very few threads can actually be taken as valid evidence for either side? Interesting. I’d love to make something that could show either way what state Warriors are in, but organizing that is a challenge. All I can offer is what I’ve shown so far, being the videos I’ve recorded and the statements I’ve made.

We’ve argued and argued, and neither side wants to give, however the side claiming Warriors are OP tend to stick to insults and otherwise negative posts rather than explain why the Warrior as OP. Even when faced with statements about different builds and gameplay.

Really all we can do is discuss the skills and how they interact with each other, and how those skills are utilized in combat. I’ve already addressed the issue with Healing Signet and Adrenal health, however I have yet to see a counter argument to it. That’s what this is about. Debating the Warrior class, for the side that believes they’re overpowered to prove it by telling us exactly how it’s broken but that has yet to happen. So rather than a reasonable discussion going back and forth we have various videos and insults flying around, which is not the point. You saw what happened when I posted the math that showed my choice wasn’t a horrible on, I got insulted and nothing constructive happened.

If you’d like to discuss this and bring math into it, then do it. You don’t need videos to post in this thread and engage in discussion, voice your concerns and explain why you think the way you. It’s not as concrete as extensive testing and recording, but it’s about all we’ve got and it’s better than just complaining or insulting each other.

The date behind the skills won’t tell you if something is broken or not. Just because it looks good on paper doesn’t mean it’ll do well in practice. Player feedback and discussions (in the case debate) are just as important as raw data in determining if things should be changed or not. Anet actually listens, our voices have impact. Rather than bicker and squander that we should be productive in this thread.

Zanryu.3417:

In other words, no videos and very few threads can actually be taken as valid evidence for either side? Interesting. I’d love to make something that could show either way what state Warriors are in, but organizing that is a challenge. …

All we can rely upon is statistical evidence. Individual experience MIGHT be accurate, but can’t be PROVEN accurate. There are too many variables. If I think class X is OP, or you think it isnt, its highly influenced by our experiences. Our experiences are not strictly controlled; there are too many unrecorded variables (for those who don’t have access to the statistics, like Anet does) for an outside observer to make a judgement call on our experience.

We’ve argued and argued, and neither side wants to give, however the side claiming Warriors are OP tend to stick to insults and otherwise negative posts rather than explain why the Warrior as OP….

To be fair, some players are insulting in their defense of the class. I play a thief, and I’ve been on both sides (the insulting prick, and the rational player defending the class) – anger begets anger, and ruins the debate. It doesn’t help that trolls on all sides make it their business to provoke people. It muddies the debate, but it’s human nature, and hard to avoid.

Really all we can do is discuss the skills and how they interact with each other, and how those skills are utilized in combat. I’ve already addressed the issue with Healing Signet and Adrenal health, however I have yet to see a counter argument to it….

Just a note, I’m not interested in dissecting what I think is OP (Its just my opinion, after all, likely biased and flawed, even if I don’t think it is), I’m just providing an example — My personal opinion is that the current issues with warrior are a complex interaction of a number of traits and skills – Berserkers stance granting immunity to poison + HS+AH+CI+UF+7s Burst skill CD+Independent Burst skills between weapons + guaranteed condition cleansing Via LB Burst (I’ve made arguments on HS+AH+CI and BS before, but the more I think about it, the more the other points show themselves to be part of the issue, IMO). It’s easy to say “Look how OP this one skill is!”, and “prove” it anecdotally. It’s much harder to say “Look how the interaction between these weapon choices, utility choices, traits, and class ability design all mesh together to be OP”, and “prove” it anecdotally – especially when we consider player skill/spec/etc.

If you’d like to discuss this and bring math into it, then do it. You don’t need videos to post in this thread and engage in discussion, voice your concerns and explain why you think the way you….

Players have tried – when pointing out the pure HPS of HS, Other players (Ashanor, for example) distract from the point with kittenty arguments, and turn it into something altogether different. Again, bringing my opinion into play, in a 1v1 scenario, warrior specs running HS and at least 20 points in Defense are hard to counter, because HS is uninterruptible and highly resistant to poison (unless your spec can spam the kitten out of poison while also doing enough DPS to overshadow HS) thanks to CI – those are 2 of the most prevalent, accepted counters to high healing, and every warrior spec mitigates them handily. When you combine UF’s ability to allow small windows if burst to specs most would consider “tanky” for warrior AND the 7s, independent CD’s on burst skills that dont drain adrenaline on a miss AND LB’s ability to be a sure-fire trigger for CI, things start to look a bit grim. That argument can be a bit weak, because it doesn’t include of bunch of other issues I outlined above, but again, I’m not here to post my opinion on warriors.

The date behind the skills won’t tell you if something is broken or not. Just because it looks good on paper doesn’t mean it’ll do well in practice. Player feedback and discussions (in the case debate) are just as important as raw data in determining if things should be changed or not…

Player input can be important. When speaking about warrior (Again, IMO), it isn’t. It’s relatively easy for players to point out when 1 or 2 skills seemed overtuned. It’s altogether a different beast when you’re talking about the complex interaction of weapon choices, utilities, spec, amulet, runes, and class design that leaves players feeling a class is too rewarding/forgiving compared to others. Our personal experience doesn’t matter as much as Anets statistical data. If I lose 90% of my fights against warriors, there are at least a dozen reasons why that might be the case. If Anet notices warriors win 90% of fights, that’s a cause for concern.

evilapprentice.6379:

Berserkers stance granting immunity to poison + HS+AH+CI+UF+7s Burst skill CD+Independent Burst skills between weapons + guaranteed condition cleansing Via LB Burst (I’ve made arguments on HS+AH+CI and BS before, but the more I think about it, the more the other points show themselves to be part of the issue, IMO).

This is why I’m always hesitant to say how to adjust any given class. Usually, what seems obvious to most isn’t really so obvious. Really what matters is the dynamic synergy. I’ve said this about S/D thief before as well. The trick is to find a way to make skill-full play exist without nerfing something to the ground. Anet unfortunately hasn’t shown this yet – which is my major gripe against them. Moreover, they sweep it under the rug with poor communication skills – which gets people even more frustrated.

Again, I’m hesitant to offer any actual “fixes” though because I just don’t know. I leave that to the more experienced. However even in the top tier players, there isn’t an exact consensus on certain things, just a general unhappiness on the lack of skill needed in this game stemming from many general issues.

“1. Attack a target with a skill of choice using the amulet of choice.
2. Record both base and critical damage. (Chance isn’t factored as the chance is the same with either amulet)
3. Attack the same target with the same skill using the other amulet.
4. Record both base and critical damage.
5. Calculate the difference between base and critical damages respectively.
6. Get whined at on the forums.”

Oh god, just please read the article on statistical sampling. You’re making me facepalm here.

So yeah shouldnt ANET have statistics and data on almost every kitten warrior fight out there? You cant honestly believe a (poorly executed) method like this is going to sway their opinion.

GankSinatra.2653:

So yeah shouldnt ANET have statistics and data on almost every kitten warrior fight out there?

You don’t need to. That’s why statistical sampling exists, and why alpha testers exist.

Chicago Jack.5647:

“1. Attack a target with a skill of choice using the amulet of choice.
2. Record both base and critical damage. (Chance isn’t factored as the chance is the same with either amulet)
3. Attack the same target with the same skill using the other amulet.
4. Record both base and critical damage.
5. Calculate the difference between base and critical damages respectively.
6. Get whined at on the forums.”

Oh god, just please read the article on statistical sampling. You’re making me facepalm here.

Or you could do some tests of your own. How is my test invalid? Were my results incorrect? Were they skewed? Did I miss a step?

I showed the results of damage tests using both amulets, unless you can point out where that went wrong you should probably stop behaving like a child.

Defining the population of concern

• The damage difference between Barbarian and Berserker Amulets

Specifying a sampling frame, a set of items or events possible to measure

• Arcing Arrow is used as the skill to measure the difference in damage.

Specifying a sampling method for selecting items or events from the frame

• Using a Steady Bow so there are no variables in damage, attack the Heavy Target Golem using Arcing Arrow until both a regular and critical hit have been recorded. Perform this process with both amulets.

Determining the sample size

• A sampling size of 1 regular and one critical hit will be used per amulet, as the results can’t change due to a lack of variables.

Implementing the sampling plan

• I attacked the Golem using the method listed above. For more accurate results I tested on the Light Armor Golem after using the same conditions as stated above. The results were an 18% damage difference in critical hits and 12% difference in regular.

• Sampling and data collecting
  I performed my test and collected the results.

• Data which can be selected
  The results of this test have already been posted.

I don’t know man, seems pretty solid to me. I’m not testing something with a lot of variables, this was something pretty basic.

Maybe now you’ll actually explain what went wrong with the test rather than complain about it.

Rednik.3809:

Zanryu.3417:

• Conditions resistance is too strong.

I really want to see fix for warhorn/guardian shouts double conversion reverted, and more so, i would like to see such abilities given to all classes.
Condition builds are way too powerful now.

I agree with you I miss that a lot on my warrior.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Warriors are pretty strong right now, but will be seeing changes in an upcoming patch.

We like how they can be tanky, and we like how they can do DPS if they want. We also like the CC they can bring. We just don’t like them doing it all with 1 build.

This pretty much confirms that us warriors are getting a nerf. So stop arguing, band together, and pray that Anet doesn’t remove warrior from high end viability.

Zanryu.3417:

I showed the results of damage tests using both amulets, unless you can point out where that went wrong you should probably stop behaving like a child.

Lol. The insults. Wow.

Zanryu.3417:

Determining the sample size

• A sampling size of 1 regular and one critical hit will be used per amulet, as the results can’t change due to a lack of variables.

THIS is wrong. You don’t preform any statistical observation on the statistical accuracy of flipping a coin by flipping it 2 times.

Beyond that, your data collection is sloppy. Not well-defined. Haphazard. And overall just bad. No expected hypothesis. No Expected Damage calculation. No variance calculation. No standard deviation calculation. No confidence interval. No CHECKING your hypothesis. It’s just a straight up bad “testing” methodology. The same can be said for your “videos”.

All of this shows you have absolutely NO interest in actually finding out what is going on, and instead just trying to shove your personal bias down everyone’s throats. Now people are throwing up on you and you’re yelling at them for doing so!

I can also post an afk war losing vs a d/d ele….so yeah war is not op..

Please…really…

Chicago Jack.5647:

Zanryu.3417:

I showed the results of damage tests using both amulets, unless you can point out where that went wrong you should probably stop behaving like a child.

Lol. The insults. Wow.

Zanryu.3417:

Determining the sample size

• A sampling size of 1 regular and one critical hit will be used per amulet, as the results can’t change due to a lack of variables.

THIS is wrong. You don’t preform any statistical observation on the statistical accuracy of flipping a coin by flipping it 2 times.

Beyond that, your data collection is sloppy. Not well-defined. Haphazard. And overall just bad. No expected hypothesis. No Expected Damage calculation. No variance calculation. No standard deviation calculation. No confidence interval. No CHECKING your hypothesis. It’s just a straight up bad “testing” methodology. The same can be said for your “videos”.

All of this shows you have absolutely NO interest in actually finding out what is going on, and instead just trying to shove your personal bias down everyone’s throats. Now people are throwing up on you and you’re yelling at them for doing so!

The hypothesis is that Berserker Amulet outperforms Barbarian Amulet, and as it offers nothing but pure damage this translates into: Berserker Amulet has enough damage to justify it over a Barbarian Amulet, which grants HP as well as the same crit rate.

There is no variance because I use the exact same build, exact same skill, and exact same weapon for both tests. The weapon used was Steady, meaning no variation in the damage it can do. Shooting 1 Arcing Arrow will net the same results as shooting 1,000 in this case. The only possible variables or deviation would be in testing with other builds or amulets, however I’m comparing the effects of both amulets on this one build.

I’m not shoving personal bias down anyone’s throat. I’ve stated many times, very clearly, that I want an actual discussion. I want people to come in and state what they think is OP and why, and to discuss their reasoning and why I do or do not agree.

If I was bias I’d say “Yeah man, Warriors aren’t OP and you just suck. I don’t care what your reason is just get out. Warriors 4 lief homiezzz” but that isn’t the case. I want legitimate arguments, not insults or taunts.

If you think my test is wrong go do it yourself. The test only applied to one build, as that’s the build I currently use which makes it the only relevant build to test with in this situation. I wasn’t testing EVERY build and EVERY weapon, just what I use with my Barbarian Amulet.

1. moar power = moar dmg with same crit chance and crit dmg!
2. moar power + moar crit dmg with same crit chance = moar average dmg!
3. if u have problems seeing what is op atm i suggest reading the forum!
4. 0/10/30/0/30 + UF + fury > 100% critchance.. so 15% moar crit dmg during spike is enough to justify it

hooma.9642:

1. moar power = moar dmg with same crit chance and crit dmg!
2. moar power + moar crit dmg with same crit chance = moar average dmg!
3. if u have problems seeing what is op atm i suggest reading the forum!
4. 0/10/30/0/30 + UF + fury > 100% critchance.. so 15% moar crit dmg during spike is enough to justify it

1. I’m aware. I found the difference in damage.
2. I’m aware, see above.
3. I know what people believe is OP.
4. That depends on which you prefer, damage or HP.