Guild Wars 2

Shadow.1345:

Thieves have nothing else for defense.

Well…

Shadow.1345:

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

Aren’t all those evades also “defense”? Not complaining here, but stating that thieves don’t have any defense beside stealth is kinda wrong, don’t you think?

tetrodoxin.2134:

Shadow.1345:

Thieves have nothing else for defense.

Well…

Shadow.1345:

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

Aren’t all those evades also “defense”? Not complaining here, but stating that thieves don’t have any defense beside stealth is kinda wrong, don’t you think?

Can you play s/d build that depends on evades and d/p build that depends on stealth at the same time?

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

Shadow.1345:

Thieves have nothing else for defense.

Well…

Shadow.1345:

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

Aren’t all those evades also “defense”? Not complaining here, but stating that thieves don’t have any defense beside stealth is kinda wrong, don’t you think?

Can you play s/d build that depends on evades and d/p build that depends on stealth at the same time?

i’ve actually seen a lot of people run s/d d/p so yeah, it seems you can?

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

Shadow.1345:

Thieves have nothing else for defense.

Well…

Shadow.1345:

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

Aren’t all those evades also “defense”? Not complaining here, but stating that thieves don’t have any defense beside stealth is kinda wrong, don’t you think?

Can you play s/d build that depends on evades and d/p build that depends on stealth at the same time?

i’ve actually seen a lot of people run s/d d/p so yeah, it seems you can?

dp with acro? oh man that is very useful… as useful in teamplay as PU mesmer afking at spawn

Cynz.9437:

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

Shadow.1345:

Thieves have nothing else for defense.

Well…

Shadow.1345:

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.

Aren’t all those evades also “defense”? Not complaining here, but stating that thieves don’t have any defense beside stealth is kinda wrong, don’t you think?

Can you play s/d build that depends on evades and d/p build that depends on stealth at the same time?

i’ve actually seen a lot of people run s/d d/p so yeah, it seems you can?

dp with acro? oh man that is very useful… as useful in teamplay as PU mesmer afking at spawn

i’ve seen them run a variety of trait set ups. not saying it’s good, just that i’ve seen it around quite a bit.

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

tetrodoxin.2134:

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

D/P thief depends on blinds and interrupts for defense more so than they rely on stealth, imo. The use of stealth for defensive purposes is generally limited to waiting out certain cooldowns (for example, stealth when enemy pops obsidian flesh or signet of stone or endure pain). Otherwise, you can shadowshot, dodge, or interrupt most of your opponent’s key attacks. I find that stealth is generally used to guarantee a strong first strike, to clear condis that you failed to avoid, or to disengage.

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

ResJudicator.7916:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

D/P thief depends on blinds and interrupts for defense more so than stealth, imo. The use of stealth for defensive purposes is generally limited to waiting out certain cooldowns (for example, stealth when enemy pops obsidian flesh or signet of stone or endure pain). Otherwise, you can shadowshot or dodge most of your opponent’s key attacks. Proccing panic strike is also great defense, since many builds can’t do much damage to you if they’re immobilized and you move behind him.

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

Well, again interrupts are not really the core defesnsive mechanics. I agree with the blind, though as long as it’s a small scale fight. In a team fight, you’ll be depending on stealth much more due to random procs. Seeing as thief melts down quickly when targeted, it needs to be untargetable > stealth. What you said does works well in 1v1’s, but try to not go in stealth in a team fight and we’ll see how long you will last. If we leave out vigor, thief has withdraw and sb. If you’re going to spam sb#3, then you’re being useless since you’re putting no pressure. Stealth on the other hand lets you do both, keep up pressure and also avoid potential damage. You should also realize that a large portion of thief’s damage comes from backstab. Obviously, you don’t want to be in teamfights all the time, but it’s not like you’ll be decaping the whole match either.

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

tetrodoxin.2134:

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

And I was just stating that thief does depend on stealth. To me, saying thief has withdraw and vigor is like stating thief has endurance bar. Pretty sure the point of thief having stealth meant it just simply doesn’t have invulnerabilities or blocks. No class is just left with one defensive mechanics, but it indeed depends on some it. This applies to all classes but necro.

I’m glad we agree.

TheFamster.7806:

Wait so all zerker memsers, eles, necros, engies, and rangers are bad…?

No, and the ones that are not bad will wreck a thief.

With the exception of 1500 rangers. they get a free pass as long as they dont have aggro, whether they’re bad or not

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

And I was just stating that thief does depend on stealth. To me, saying thief has withdraw and vigor is like stating thief has endurance bar. Pretty sure the point of thief having stealth meant it just simply doesn’t have invulnerabilities or blocks. No class is just left with one defensive mechanics, but it indeed depends on some it. This applies to all classes but necro.

Necromancer has Death Shroud plus the same health pool as Warriors.

Laraley has a point and yes, I’m sorry tetrodoxin, I was wrong it’s not the Thieves only defense but it is a huge part of their mechanic for surviving fights and not just giving the other team 5 points every time they get focused in a team fight.

Back to Laraley’s point that classes have something other than evade which every class has to help with survivability. Stealth, extra ways to evade and plenty of blinds is the Thief’s way. Also if you’re going to state this thread is a way to balance the class then other classes have to be mentioned as well. Otherwise this is just a “I don’t like this mechanic because it annoys me thread” and that’s just being selfish.

ResJudicator.7916:

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

Then it’s wrong.
Because Reveal upkeep in WvW is 3 sec while in pvp is 4 or 5? – I don’t remember

So in PvP, dealing with thieves is much easier than in wvw.

Since this is PvP section, and that’s how it works, I see no reason to nerf Stealth as it is now.

:)

Shadow.1345:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

And you’re starting to compare to other classes, for some reason. I wasn’t even asking for nerfs here or to remove stealth from thief or the D/P build, but some people tend to feel attacked once you state the obvious. Yes, other classes do have vigor. Yes, D/P depends on stealth for the most part and they don’t have invuls and blocks, but it also has access to plenty of evades (and other stuff) if necessary. If a class picks a vigor trait or evade skills/utilities then yes, I’d say it picks it as a part of its defense.

Care to explain why “that’s funny?” I don’t even understand how anyone would argue that. All I was saying is that even on D/P, you also have evade traits/skills. I was just correcting a statement with my response above, claiming “thieves only have stealth”, which is wrong. That’s it, no harm done.

I’ll stop here before I get sucked into the thread. x)

And I was just stating that thief does depend on stealth. To me, saying thief has withdraw and vigor is like stating thief has endurance bar. Pretty sure the point of thief having stealth meant it just simply doesn’t have invulnerabilities or blocks. No class is just left with one defensive mechanics, but it indeed depends on some it. This applies to all classes but necro.

Necromancer has Death Shroud plus the same health pool as Warriors.

Laraley has a point and yes, I’m sorry tetrodoxin, I was wrong it’s not the Thieves only defense but it is a huge part of their mechanic for surviving fights and not just giving the other team 5 points every time they get focused in a team fight.

Back to Laraley’s point that classes have something other than evade which every class has to help with survivability. Stealth, extra ways to evade and plenty of blinds is the Thief’s way. Also if you’re going to state this thread is a way to balance the class then other classes have to be mentioned as well. Otherwise this is just a “I don’t like this mechanic because it annoys me thread” and that’s just being selfish.

Yes, but necromancers are very vunlerable to burst because they cannot mitigate the damage actively and effectively. Death Shroud is a horrible defensive mechanism, which makes you eat every single attack once you’re out of endurance and that happens very fast if you’re a necro due to not having any access to vigor. While invulnerabilities prevents you from taking any damage and stealth negates at least some of it usually, necromancers have a defensive mechanism ‘’Hit me because I have more hp’’, which is just not ideal at all.

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

Skills with 30~240 CD are lamer in my opinion.
I rather use mana system.

Laraley.7695:

ResJudicator.7916:

Laraley.7695:

tetrodoxin.2134:

The point, I think you guys missed it.

Also, you make it sound like a D/P thief only has stealth. There’s withdraw, bountiful for vigor, disabling shot, lots of evades in my eyes. Again, I’m not complaining, just stating that “Stealth is a thiefs only defense” is not correct. I won’t even start with blinds here. ^^

Some builds rely more on evades, some more on stealth. But you’ll end up most likely with having a mix of both, which is a good thing.

That’s funny because every class apart from necro has access to vigor. D/P thief does indeed depend on stealth, evades are not the main defensive mechanics. Thief has no invulnerability or block as other classes. You’re stating something that’s not really relevant.

D/P thief depends on blinds and interrupts for defense more so than stealth, imo. The use of stealth for defensive purposes is generally limited to waiting out certain cooldowns (for example, stealth when enemy pops obsidian flesh or signet of stone or endure pain). Otherwise, you can shadowshot or dodge most of your opponent’s key attacks. Proccing panic strike is also great defense, since many builds can’t do much damage to you if they’re immobilized and you move behind him.

As many have noted, a thief who is camping stealth in conquest is not adding anything to his team. I feel like the thieves who claim that stealth is their only (or even primary) defense are the usual WvW full-shadow arts trolls who rely entirely on stealth camping to cover up their mistakes.

Well, again interrupts are not really the core defesnsive mechanics. I agree with the blind, though as long as it’s a small scale fight. In a team fight, you’ll be depending on stealth much more due to random procs. Seeing as thief melts down quickly when targeted, it needs to be untargetable > stealth. What you said does works well in 1v1’s, but try to not go in stealth in a team fight and we’ll see how long you will last. If we leave out vigor, thief has withdraw and sb. If you’re going to spam sb#3, then you’re being useless since you’re putting no pressure. Stealth on the other hand lets you do both, keep up pressure and also avoid potential damage. You should also realize that a large portion of thief’s damage comes from backstab. Obviously, you don’t want to be in teamfights all the time, but it’s not like you’ll be decaping the whole match either.

Even in a teamfight, a thief can temporarily disengage for defense. For example, porting up to Clocktower roof, or to the plateaus by Graveyard (near the pillars), or to the upper ledge by Keep, etc. Then pop back in when the enemy switches targets. So I still disagree that stealth is the only defense even in teamfights.

In any event, I don’t think anyone wants stealth removed. And you can certainly add some counterplay without hurting stealth’s defensive capabilities.

Here’s a quick idea: If the thief’s attack is dodged/blinded/blocked, then the stealth effect immediately ends (but no reveal debuff is applied). This only applies if you actually dodge/blind/block/whatever the attack. If the thief simply swings at air and misses, then he stays stealthed. This means that if you predict the backstab and actively avoid it, the thief can immediately restealth (if he has the initiative), but he won’t be able to just press “1” to try for another backstab. This adds counterplay to stealth openers without hurting the thief’s defense at all.

The only tricky implementation part that I can think of is what to do with the pistol’s Sneak Attack (or similar multi-hit skills). Ideally, I think if you dodge any of the 5 bullets, then the thief should pop out of stealth. However, if any of those 5 bullets hit, the reveal debuff should still apply.

Toxsa.2701:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

Skills with 30~240 CD are lamer in my opinion.
I rather use mana system.

Have you ever played any other mmo? Things that have 240cd in gw2, would have some mana cost and have the same or higher cooldown. It’s not like games with mana have no cooldowns. Just take Time Wrap from wow, 4% of base mana cost, last 40 sec, 5 min cd and applies a debuff on you that you can’t benefit from similar skills for 10 minutes. Gw2 is balanced completely different and if you don’t like it, you can go play games with mana/energy/we you wish.

Laraley.7695:

Toxsa.2701:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

Skills with 30~240 CD are lamer in my opinion.
I rather use mana system.

Have you ever played any other mmo? Things that have 240cd in gw2, would have some mana cost and have the same or higher cooldown. It’s not like games with mana have no cooldowns. Just take Time Wrap from wow, 4% of base mana cost, last 40 sec, 5 min cd and applies a debuff on you that you can’t benefit from similar skills for 10 minutes. Gw2 is balanced completely different and if you don’t like it, you can go play games with mana/energy/we you wish.

Forum role: Ignore Larelay

Oh man someone brought in necro and gave us the HP argument even war, without Healing Signet,LB and CI war has no sustain the argument HP=sustain is pure crap, it’s like saying there is a reason to no put necro to the sides first, you lost all credibility on class balance you are done.

About thief the only scaling defense they have is stealth and none of the dazes,and blind really counts as scaling defense unless you can daze,blind etc the whole map and bypass stab etc. in that case you need to teach me,hell only reason stealth is a scaling defense is only because they can’t see you.

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

It’s not, mana is large,refills slowly,you usually don’t worry about it unless you are a wet noodle,even when presents there is usually still CD,the only mana in game is DS as reverse poorly implemented one. Initiative is small,refills actively and faster,doesn’t carry CD apart from utilities,is easier to balance in cost,would be the same for every class.

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

It’s not, mana is large,refills slowly,you usually don’t worry about it unless you are a wet noodle,even when presents there is usually still CD,the only mana in game is DS as reverse poorly implemented one. Initiative is small,refills actively and faster,doesn’t carry CD apart from utilities,is easier to balance in cost,would be the same for every class.

imagine if instead of a skill use costing 300 mana, it cost 3
imagine if instead of having 1200 mana, a toon had 12
imagine if instead of regenerating 100 mana per 10 secs, a toon regenned 1

suddenly initiative = mana

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

It’s not, mana is large,refills slowly,you usually don’t worry about it unless you are a wet noodle,even when presents there is usually still CD,the only mana in game is DS as reverse poorly implemented one. Initiative is small,refills actively and faster,doesn’t carry CD apart from utilities,is easier to balance in cost,would be the same for every class.

imagine if instead of a skill use costing 300 mana, it cost 3
imagine if instead of having 1200 mana, a toon had 12
imagine if instead of regenerating 100 mana per 10 secs, a toon regenned 1

suddenly initiative = mana

I know no game where 1 skills cost large amount of mana level wise AKA not under geared because you have like +20 of them neither a game where it refills at fast initiative,not even much if any effort on how to regen it,even the icons are different. BnS and Lineage Eternal use “chi balls” similarly to initiative but to call it mana is wrong, the development is different while the core, ressource to use skills,is similar.

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

It’s not, mana is large,refills slowly,you usually don’t worry about it unless you are a wet noodle,even when presents there is usually still CD,the only mana in game is DS as reverse poorly implemented one. Initiative is small,refills actively and faster,doesn’t carry CD apart from utilities,is easier to balance in cost,would be the same for every class.

imagine if instead of a skill use costing 300 mana, it cost 3
imagine if instead of having 1200 mana, a toon had 12
imagine if instead of regenerating 100 mana per 10 secs, a toon regenned 1

suddenly initiative = mana

I know no game where 1 skills cost large amount of mana level wise AKA not under geared because you have like +20 of them neither a game where it refills at fast initiative,not even much if any effort on how to regen it,even the icons are different. BnS and Lineage Eternal use “chi balls” similarly to initiative but to call it mana is wrong, the development is different while the core, ressource to use skills,is similar.

That game you’re talking about is Diablo 3.
It uses mana very quickly, yet regaining mana as quickly too.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/How-bout-we-revamp-this-now/first

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

initiative is mana. mana management is lame.

It’s not, mana is large,refills slowly,you usually don’t worry about it unless you are a wet noodle,even when presents there is usually still CD,the only mana in game is DS as reverse poorly implemented one. Initiative is small,refills actively and faster,doesn’t carry CD apart from utilities,is easier to balance in cost,would be the same for every class.

imagine if instead of a skill use costing 300 mana, it cost 3
imagine if instead of having 1200 mana, a toon had 12
imagine if instead of regenerating 100 mana per 10 secs, a toon regenned 1

suddenly initiative = mana

I know no game where 1 skills cost large amount of mana level wise AKA not under geared because you have like +20 of them neither a game where it refills at fast initiative,not even much if any effort on how to regen it,even the icons are different. BnS and Lineage Eternal use “chi balls” similarly to initiative but to call it mana is wrong, the development is different while the core, ressource to use skills,is similar.

it just feels wrong to call it mana, cuz the designers wanted to give it a different name, and the name stuck. its a limited resource that (usually) doesnt outright kill you when it hits 0, and skill usage has a price paid with it. its still the concept of mana. the devs prolly felt like the name “mana” was overused or nondescript.

I hate stealth in most games. The only thing I’d like to stop with stealth is the ability to cap people while stealth
OR
Revamp all down skills to have #2 do an AOE blast

Honestly I’m not really a fan of downed skills anyways. They seem unbalanced.

You know what, I just don’t like stealth. Oh well.

Sagat.3285:

Oh man someone brought in necro and gave us the HP argument even war, without Healing Signet,LB and CI war has no sustain the argument HP=sustain is pure crap, it’s like saying there is a reason to no put necro to the sides first, you lost all credibility on class balance you are done.

It certainly gives more sustain than having a low amount of HP. The point I was making is that classes have more than just their Endurance bar for defense. Necromancer has a larger pool of health from Vitality + a second pool of health in Death Shroud. That doesn’t include all the condi cleanse and life leech that the class comes with as well.

Darkwolfer.7819:

I hate stealth in most games. The only thing I’d like to stop with stealth is the ability to cap people while stealth
OR
Revamp all down skills to have #2 do an AOE blast

Honestly I’m not really a fan of downed skills anyways. They seem unbalanced.

You know what, I just don’t like stealth. Oh well.

Have you ever tried to do a stomp without stealth or using the shadowstep trick as a thief? You can literally get downed from the downed state AA before the stomp animation finishes.

I specifically run with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Analyze just to counter thieves.

I think this is the only ability in-game that can be used in Spvp that prevent a thief from stealthing outright other than Sic’ Em

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight.

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight.

That’s like saying all other zerker players are bad and ironically the best players all play thief. It doesn’t work that way. Thief defines the Mets and has for a very long time, to the point that I’d almost suggest it’s the cause of the celestial meta. Thief has more mobility and “outs” than it deserves, while it could realistically use a bit more staying power in fights instead. (Sort of leveling the playing field design wise.)

I feel thieves get a bit kitteny calling everyone bad and saying “try it, see for yourself” because I’m sure they realize, thief has a pretty decent learning curve. It’s that learning curve that keeps it broken. It’s so squishy, yeah, it’s easy to be bad with. But play against a good thief, be one yourself or just listen to them talk, it’s easy to see, they are one of the most powerful once you are good with them and have a good handle on the tricks. Not to mention historically, stealth just isn’t a fun mechanic to play against. It feels like a major crutch and I don’t think you give it enough credit for how much it benefits you. You constantly talk about how little it does for you, yet when anyone suggest to nerf it a bit all of the thieves go crazy in defense mode. Your actions tell more to the story than you think.

All I’ve ever said was that thief needs some redesigns to bring them more in line with the rest of the game, but I’m perfectly fine with also compensating for those changes as well.

I get you like thief, but sometimes you have to just consider that for other people having really high evade time (SD) or high capability for resetting fights (dp) it just feels cheap and unfun to fight unless the person is bad.

For example, most of the skills on necromsncer that add up to anything has .75-1.3 sec cast times. Those are reasonable for reaction times. Thieves run a steal that has a 21 second cd, dazes, damages and heals, poisons, steals boons (stability first, talk about cheap) and soon will also grant stealth on standard builds. That’s one move that is instant. That’s just silly, and I’m sorry if it offends you. But when a thief tells me to “predict it and get good” I can only thing “get a life”.

I don’t have thieves, but I wish the had to adhere to many of the same combat expectancies that the rest of us do. Thieves have it bad in large group fights, but they are in no way hurting for viability.

The real counter play to stealth is actually very simple> being a bruiser or a bunker. A shoutbow for example can affrod to eat 4-5 backstabs in a row , same goes with cele ele/engi , bunker ranger and even medi guard.

Anything that isint tanky or doesn’t have high recovery , will find stealth extremely frustrating to fight against unless you can obviously counter stealth ( being a thief yourself)

So the lack of counter play to stealth only affects glass/zerker builds going up against a thief. I don’t know how it would be possible to nerf thief vs zerker builds without affecting it against tankier builds or high recovery builds like medi guard.

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight.

That’s like saying all other zerker players are bad and ironically the best players all play thief. It doesn’t work that way. Thief defines the Mets and has for a very long time, to the point that I’d almost suggest it’s the cause of the celestial meta. Thief has more mobility and “outs” than it deserves, while it could realistically use a bit more staying power in fights instead. (Sort of leveling the playing field design wise.)

I feel thieves get a bit kitteny calling everyone bad and saying “try it, see for yourself” because I’m sure they realize, thief has a pretty decent learning curve. It’s that learning curve that keeps it broken. It’s so squishy, yeah, it’s easy to be bad with. But play against a good thief, be one yourself or just listen to them talk, it’s easy to see, they are one of the most powerful once you are good with them and have a good handle on the tricks. Not to mention historically, stealth just isn’t a fun mechanic to play against. It feels like a major crutch and I don’t think you give it enough credit for how much it benefits you. You constantly talk about how little it does for you, yet when anyone suggest to nerf it a bit all of the thieves go crazy in defense mode. Your actions tell more to the story than you think.

All I’ve ever said was that thief needs some redesigns to bring them more in line with the rest of the game, but I’m perfectly fine with also compensating for those changes as well.

I get you like thief, but sometimes you have to just consider that for other people having really high evade time (SD) or high capability for resetting fights (dp) it just feels cheap and unfun to fight unless the person is bad.

For example, most of the skills on necromsncer that add up to anything has .75-1.3 sec cast times. Those are reasonable for reaction times. Thieves run a steal that has a 21 second cd, dazes, damages and heals, poisons, steals boons (stability first, talk about cheap) and soon will also grant stealth on standard builds. That’s one move that is instant. That’s just silly, and I’m sorry if it offends you. But when a thief tells me to “predict it and get good” I can only thing “get a life”.

I don’t have thieves, but I wish the had to adhere to many of the same combat expectancies that the rest of us do. Thieves have it bad in large group fights, but they are in no way hurting for viability.

While I get what you mean, I don’t really think it’s wise to compare thief to necro and say necro has reasonable cast times, so it’s okay. If you play anything squishy and face a power necro, you know that there will be a moment when most of your hp is gone due all the procs that have no tell. I don’t think it’s okay to have this in game either, especially when necro can one shot me from downstate due to this, too. I know they’re changing it, but it’s still in game and that’s not fun to fight either. On the other hand, I believe there are people who enjoy fighting power necros, so the amount of fun you have when facing a different spec shouldn’t be an indicator of balance requirement.

glock.6590:

The real counter play to stealth is actually very simple> being a bruiser or a bunker. A shoutbow for example can affrod to eat 4-5 backstabs in a row , same goes with cele ele/engi , bunker ranger and even medi guard.

Anything that isint tanky or doesn’t have high recovery , will find stealth extremely frustrating to fight against unless you can obviously counter stealth ( being a thief yourself)

So the lack of counter play to stealth only affects glass/zerker builds going up against a thief. I don’t know how it would be possible to nerf thief vs zerker builds without affecting it against tankier builds or high recovery builds like medi guard.

Cele is getting nerfed. Beyond that, base heals of certain skills need reduced and have higher healing coefficients so they can’t be as tanky without more investment (Shouts/Monks Focus) and slightly reduced durations on Ele boons, specifically protection a bit. Engineer will be changing a lot so, it’s hard to know there. So really, they’re already on the right path.

Imo, they need to change Shadow Arts in the same way they did with Strength traits on Warrior, rather than rewarding sitting in stealth (or High Adrenaline), have them be rewarded base on using stealth attacks or leaving stealth. A few examples:

Shadow Rejuvination: Successful stealth attack gain 6 second of Shadow Rejuvination, heal over time (reduced amount, about 160-200) and 1 initiative every 2 seconds.

Resilience of Shadows: Exiting Stealth gains 3 seconds of protection. 3 second cooldown.

Shadow’s embrace: Successful stealth attacks transfer 2 conditions to your enemy.

Just some fly ideas, but the point is, it could be made viable but simply more fun to play against and discourage camping.

ronpierce.2760:

snip

To be clear, I am not automatically against a “Redesign”. I’d be open to discussing a well designed suggestion. Supreme’s suggestions however are not a redesign – they’re straight up nerfs, and ridiculous ones as well. Most players who suggest changes for thief weight their changes at 100% nerf and claim thieves are OP, or propose a 90% nerf with a 10% buff and try to sell it as an even trade.

Thief does not automatically beat every other zerker spec in an actual fight. They’re actually pretty on par with most zerker specs (fights being determined by skill), they just have better mobility. This creates an issue because you can’t really take anything away from thieves damage wise(their spike is worse that SF air ele, their short term burst is worse than LB ranger, and they have none of the blocks/invulns/sustain options of either of those classes), and if you touch their mobility they’re a worse choice than most other zerker classes.

What we’re talking about right now is Stealth, and I’m sorry, if you think stealth is OP in capture point PvP, you haven’t been paying attention. If players still haven’t figured out that the Dagger weilding thief who disappears has 3-4 seconds to get behind them and respond accordingly, that’s on them. Thieves “go crazy” when you mention nerfing stealth because it’s already an underpowered mechanic in capture point SPvP – you can’t contribute while you’re in stealth, and countering stealth can sometimes be as easy as just walking directly away from where you saw the thief enter stealth for 3 seconds.

I don’t believe I’ve ever said “learn to predict steal”, and certainly not in this discussion. I also didn’t design steal, which at baseline is terrible for a class mechanic, but when you dedicate 5 out of 7 major traits becomes fairly strong. I’d be happy with a steal that had some of its traits rolled into baseline, and had other more interesting traits unrelated to steal to replace them, but that’s a discussion for another post.

If you want thieves to “adhere to many of the same combat expectancies that the rest of us do”, I hope you’re ready for thieves with a mix of passive defenses, blocks, invulnerabilities, decent condition removal, hard CC that lasts more than half a second on weaponsets, better access to soft CC on weaponets, functional access to conditions other than bleed, functioning sustain, and probably a few other things I didn’t mention because all of that is literally off the top of my head. People love to kitten and moan about all the things thief can do while completely ignoring the downsides of the initiative system, their almost non-existent condition removal and their entirely active defenses.

If you don’t think thieves are hurting for viability, go watch TerrorSquads Ranked Que primer, because it’s actually pretty spot on. It paints a very clear picture of thieves extremely limited role in the current Meta, and as a side bonus SirVincent points out how that strategy was completely shut down by a team heavy with celestial bruisers in a recent tournament.

Shadow.1345:

Sagat.3285:

Oh man someone brought in necro and gave us the HP argument even war, without Healing Signet,LB and CI war has no sustain the argument HP=sustain is pure crap, it’s like saying there is a reason to no put necro to the sides first, you lost all credibility on class balance you are done.

It certainly gives more sustain than having a low amount of HP. The point I was making is that classes have more than just their Endurance bar for defense. Necromancer has a larger pool of health from Vitality + a second pool of health in Death Shroud. That doesn’t include all the condi cleanse and life leech that the class comes with as well.

You need to renew your knowledge of necro and their sustain you really do.

Interesting ideas @ronpierce even though some buff(not nerf imo) will need to happen, staying in stealth could guarantee a full cleansing or heal so the numbers cannot just transfer on stealth attack use but yeah definitely better than on reveal I do disagree with 6 secs on S.Rej. unless it can stacks of course.

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

“Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight”.

{Let me ask you a question} open question for all players: what is “haven’t bothered to learn and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight”? when a profession that is design to not bothered to learn and put the effort into learning how to fight others?

Do you know: each time when players try to put the effort into bothered to learn and putting the effort into learning how to fight the profession: 3 things happen?

1. They are instant kill by thief
2. Thief hide always in stealth
3. Thief reset fights

So again, what is to put effort into bothered to learn how to fight a profession and putting effort into learning from a profession that is guarantee instant kill you, gurantee stealth and guarantee reset fights before you even the chance to learn and put effort fighting them?

Example: – teacher: classroom

It is like every time you go to a classroom and put effort to learn from the teacher. When you see the teacher: the teacher instantly hide and run away, Each time you return to the classroom: again the teacher instant run and hide. Later: you receive a letter in the address from the teacher saying, you haven’t bothered to learn from me and putting the effort learning to learn from me- I will Fail You: You Fail the class.

How would you feel if you were the student?

Would you feel ok?

Would you feel teacher action was fair?

Would you also tell the student the reason that happen is because you did not bothered to learn from teacher? and put the effort into learning from teacher?

I hope you understand because that student example is us players and the teacher example is thief players.

-that is all-

As far as i recall, thieves going stealth is already a counterplay to thief itself. No?
prove me wrong then

Take away the ranged blind from black powder. It makes it really hard to counter their stealth combo if they blinded you beforehand.

DarkSyze.8627:

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

“Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight”.

Let me ask you a question:

No.

Asking them to rework stealth and buff/balance the rest of the thief appropriately is completely reasonable.

There are plenty of cases where a given class has something broken or anti-fun going for it. This doesn’t mean calling for a strict nerf on the class, just balancing the part that is broken. (In this case stealth)

evilapprentice.6379:

DarkSyze.8627:

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

“Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight”.

Let me ask you a question:

No.

Edit: question open to all players.

DarkSyze.8627:

evilapprentice.6379:

DarkSyze.8627:

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

evilapprentice.6379:

@Shadow

Like I told TerrorSquad, you’re wasting your time. Supreme believes that the only current counter to stealth is “AoEing the area you saw them stealth in”, and despite MrBigs claim of 5k games played he believes the only counter to stealth is “random dodging”.

If these players haven’t figured out how to move, think and predict (as you outlined) in the last 3 years, you walking them through it isn’t going to help. All the logic in the world proves useless against blind zealotry. None of these forums warriors came here for a discussion or an exchange of ideas, they came to shout their “point” (incorrect as it is) loudly and repeatedly in the face of all common sense. Unless they get a button whose function is “I win against stealth now”, they won’t be happy.

Anyone complaining about stealth 3 years in would be better served playing a less complex game that doesn’t expect its players to learn things on their own.

You sure love your buzzwords don’t you?

“Just as much as bad players love requesting nerfs for a class they haven’t bothered to learn, and haven’t put the effort into learning how to fight”.

Let me ask you a question:

No.

Edit: question open to all players.

Thieves who come here and act like everything is a threat to their class are floppers.

Like LBJ. 1 hit, they overexaggerate a lot.

For reference to any who doesnt know what flopping means.

So far glock and shadow are the only ones who you can talk to properly. Sad really.

Theif Shouldnt just be revealed for failing an attack. Any action should really cancel thier stealth. So getting blocked or “miss” from blind or any aoe attack should all break thier stealth instead of just giving them the option to try again.

It is admitbaly infurating when the best option to counter play is to randomly swing at the air.

Also, a “fight reset” cannot possibly be part of intended design. If you run from a fight you should be giving up something such as a node or something. But having a fight that is enterly dictated by the thief is unfun. I am not agaisnt stealth, But I do think that the immense acces to it allows theifs to chose the pace of a fight. Even if they should lose a fight.. they can easily run away and heal up. So defeating a theif is not killing them.. Its either they give up and leave u alone to go somewhere else. or you get annoyed at not being able to secure the kill that you leave… and they follow you with ease.

That is why the meta is driven by builds that beat theifs to deal with this.

(this is not ment to be just an anti theif forum, mesmers also have thier issues with stealth) but the real issue is more stealth and its mechancis then theifs.

Luthic.7290:

Theif Shouldnt just be revealed for failing an attack. Any action should really cancel thier stealth. So getting blocked or “miss” from blind or any aoe attack should all break thier stealth instead of just giving them the option to try again.

It is admitbaly infurating when the best option to counter play is to randomly swing at the air.

Also, a “fight reset” cannot possibly be part of intended design. If you run from a fight you should be giving up something such as a node or something. But having a fight that is enterly dictated by the thief is unfun. I am not agaisnt stealth, But I do think that the immense acces to it allows theifs to chose the pace of a fight. Even if they should lose a fight.. they can easily run away and heal up. So defeating a theif is not killing them.. Its either they give up and leave u alone to go somewhere else. or you get annoyed at not being able to secure the kill that you leave… and they follow you with ease.

That is why the meta is driven by builds that beat theifs to deal with this.

(this is not ment to be just an anti theif forum, mesmers also have thier issues with stealth) but the real issue is more stealth and its mechancis then theifs.

This is actually a good idea. Nevermind revealed. Just break stealth. Fair enough?