Guild Wars 2

google.3709:

Thief, Chilled? it’s k 222222222222222222222

(Chill no longer affect movement skills)

I’m biased on the change in the same process movement speed buffs won’t affect leaps and alike, it feels like the easy way out but it does make it easier to balance.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

“People are mad at OP for spouting nonsense and not just blindly accepting it. Jeepers, he must be right!!”

>Instead of actually reading the posts

Lmfao do you even logic
Just straight HAMMERING the bait button rofl

Thieves are only ones spouting exaggeration and nonsense here. Like you always do.

#flopsomemore

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

“People are mad at OP for spouting nonsense and not just blindly accepting it. Jeepers, he must be right!!”

>Instead of actually reading the posts

Lmfao do you even logic
Just straight HAMMERING the bait button rofl

Thieves are only ones spouting exaggeration and nonsense here. Like you always do.

#flopsomemore

Careful with that!

I agree with two of the three points he’s making.

I am only against chill decreasing cooldown, since it affects all thief skills and combat choices instead of just the skills on cooldown. That is stark nonsense; thief skills are not designed like normal CD skills and should not be submitted to chill across the board.

I made that apparent on the first page. As I said then, reveals on whiffs are fine, chill regen is not. I understand that Reaper and such will be depending on this, but cramming it into our skill bars isnt going to work.

If you want to specially design chill to work a certain way on thieves that’s less silly, then I’m all ears.

StickerHappy.8052:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

“People are mad at OP for spouting nonsense and not just blindly accepting it. Jeepers, he must be right!!”

>Instead of actually reading the posts

Lmfao do you even logic
Just straight HAMMERING the bait button rofl

Thieves are only ones spouting exaggeration and nonsense here. Like you always do.

#flopsomemore

It’s not like any of this matters. People have been likely QQing about this same thing since release and Revealed was the fix. Stealth will remain. As for it staying when hitting a blocking person or a whiffed attack and realism being called in, it’s called magic. It’s more like an invisibility spell than stealth.

As for silly exaggerations, people act like 2-3 seconds is a lifetime and Thief can just backstab forever. Yes you can stack with HS spam but it not easy to do. Just try it yourself and see how much practice it takes.

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

Isn’t the Revenant more or less getting your “Mana”/GW1 Energy?

Besides, Rogue in WoW has one important mechanic which Thief has not. Combo Points.
You can’t just spam most powerful skill over and over.
Assasin had sequences.

And as others pointed, the only Rogue skills without cooldown are damage ones. Utility/mobility, as far as I remember, has always been limited to Cooldowns.

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

Exactly, anything that mentions thief is regarded as a “Nerf” when they read it. To be honest, the ones that derail or sabotage this kind of threads are thieves themselves.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

There are a lot of good points made by people on both sides of the camp in this thread. And while lots of people (including good thieves) agree that stealth needs some more counterplay, they don’t all agree with the OP’s suggestions. There are a lot of middle-ground suggestions that have been offered here that are far more forgiving than a revealed-on-whiff.

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

thief is stupidly op in pvp its normal stealth-backstab-aa-teleport away and for stealth respawn-w8 2-3s-and again until i die beacause when i took him to 10-20% he teleport away and go stealth and after 5s he have full hp and go again.

ResJudicator.7916:

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

Well yes, I’m not that skilled, still fairly new to the game with only about 1k matches. I guess to an Esports giant like you that makes me a scrub.

However, the HS spam 4 times in that little BP area before it ends is listed as an advanced skill on Metabattle and isn’t something that is just done from watching the video once and mashing your face against the keyboard. Aka requires practice. Never said how much but it requires some practice instead of being this “takes no skill” thing the opposition to thieves love to scream.

On the other hand in that small time I have learned to counterplay stealth with just the mechanics in the game with AoE and AA wihout resporting to QQing on the forums. I have also said sure I would take see more counterplays to stealth as viable if being pigeonholed into one role was also addressed and fixed for the thief. And face it, they are. If you had some thief in your group tell you he was running a bunker or support build you’d want to kick him off your team.

ResJudicator.7916:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

There are a lot of good points made by people on both sides of the camp in this thread. And while lots of people (including good thieves) agree that stealth needs some more counterplay, they don’t all agree with the OP’s suggestions. There are a lot of middle-ground suggestions that have been offered here that are far more forgiving than a revealed-on-whiff.

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

define good thief? the ones that agree with you? great definition~

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

because trolls keep bumping it with random nonsense

back to topic: sure, add more counterplay to stealth if other classes will also see more counterplay to heals/invuls/block/aoe etc.
for example: if necro missed his DS attack, he loses entire life force bar
if warrior missed his f1 skill, his utilities go on CD
if ele missed (blind, block etc.) his high dmging spells, his attunements go on CD

sounds fair doesn’t (it)? it doesn’t…. so unless other classes (celestial cancer, i am looking at you) gets some massive nerfs i don’t see how adding even more counterplay to stealth would help besides deleting the class from pvp~

Cynz.9437:

ResJudicator.7916:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

There are a lot of good points made by people on both sides of the camp in this thread. And while lots of people (including good thieves) agree that stealth needs some more counterplay, they don’t all agree with the OP’s suggestions. There are a lot of middle-ground suggestions that have been offered here that are far more forgiving than a revealed-on-whiff.

Most of the posters who zealously oppose adding more counterplay to stealth show that they play thief at a pretty low level. Like the earlier post where someone talked about how much practice it takes to stack stealth with heartseeker, or the post where someone said aegis would be a total hardcounter to backstabs.

define good thief? the ones that agree with you? great definition~

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

because trolls keep bumping it with random nonsense

back to topic: sure, add more counterplay to stealth if other classes will also see more counterplay to heals/invuls/block/aoe etc.
for example: if necro missed his DS attack, he loses entire life force bar
if warrior missed his f1 skill, his utilities go on CD
if ele missed (blind, block etc.) his high dmging spells, his attunements go on CD

sounds fair doesn’kitten it doesn’t…. so unless other classes (celestial cancer, i am looking at you) gets some massive nerfs i don’t see how adding even more counterplay to stealth would help besides deleting the class from pvp~

I define a “good thief” based on past performance on MMR-leaderboards, or how well they do in higher MMR matches, as well as their general knowledge of class mechanics.

Regarding your point about counterplay to other classes, I generally agree that there should be more counterplay, although most of your examples are flat out silly, and completely wrong.

You can see the Warrior F1 skill coming (unless he’s been stealthed), so you can set up your dodge/block/blind/etc. If you dodge/block/blind the Warrior’s F1 skill, he loses his endurance, and the f1 skill goes on cooldown. He also generally won’t get the cleansing ire proc (exception for longbow f1, which procs as long as the arrow hits the ground — this should be fixed). I’m not sure why you think there’s no counterplay here?

The same applies to the ele’s burning speed, firegrab, or phoenix + lightning flash whammo combo. You can see those coming, you can avoid the attack, and now the ele’s skills are on cooldown. In the case of the phoenix + LF combo, the ele’s also burned his only blink.

Also not sure why you think that having characters pop out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when their attack gets dodged/blinded/blocked would somehow delete thieves. How often do you whiff your backstabs? The other guy still has to time his dodge/block/blind, kind of like if he was trying to avoid an eviscerate or flurry, except vs stealthplay he has to do it based solely on timing and prediction.

ResJudicator.7916:

snip

I define a “good thief” based on past performance on MMR-leaderboards, or how well they do in higher MMR matches, as well as their general knowledge of class mechanics.

Regarding your point about counterplay to other classes, I generally agree that there should be more counterplay, although most of your examples are flat out silly, and completely wrong.

You can see the Warrior F1 skill coming (unless he’s been stealthed), so you can set up your dodge/block/blind/etc. If you dodge/block/blind the Warrior’s F1 skill, he loses his endurance, and the f1 skill goes on cooldown. He also generally won’t get the cleansing ire proc (exception for longbow f1, which procs as long as the arrow hits the ground — this should be fixed). I’m not sure why you think there’s no counterplay here?

The same applies to the ele’s burning speed, firegrab, or phoenix + lightning flash whammo combo. You can see those coming, you can avoid the attack, and now the ele’s skills are on cooldown. In the case of the phoenix + LF combo, the ele’s also burned his only blink.

Also not sure why you think that having characters pop out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when their attack gets dodged/blinded/blocked would somehow delete thieves. How often do you whiff your backstabs? The other guy still has to time his dodge/block/blind, kind of like if he was trying to avoid an eviscerate or flurry, except vs stealthplay he has to do it based solely on timing and prediction.

MMR performance? You do realize LB were a joke for half year at least? I have been on top 100 NA before LB turned into farmboards (i guess i am bad eh?) and i think more counterplay to stealth at current state of classes would just delete thieves from pvp.

My examples were just to show how severe would “counterplay” suggested in this thread.
You can’t blind warrior in zerker stance; you can also block backstab as block usually lasts longer than stealth so i don’t see the point of this argument; you can also doge backstab, most of them are actually highly predictable. I didn’t say there is no counterplay to warrior, same as there is already counterplay (a lot of it actually) to thief stealth. My point is: adding more would be just devastating.

Actually, quite some of ele dmg is instant and often unpredictable (cough procs).

Because revealed debuff denies thieves their defensives(healing, condi removal, dmg mititagtion), thieves are one of very few classes/builds thats defense is also baked into offense. Just imagine that guardian would gain resistance to own healing if his attack got blocked/blinded etc.

To be fair, i actually don’t even bother backstabbing most of the time due to current meta. Backstab requires so much atm (stealth, being behind, actually crit and not die to aoe) and deals such little dmg to most meta classes (celery, engi, shoutbow) that sadly AA is more effective. That is why any more nerfs to stealth and backstab are just overboard, imo, or are you implying that Anet should discourage using backstab even more? I don’t think it would be great design decision.

Here is the joke: look up your death log every time you die. What is killing you most of the time. I bet you my gold that it is burning and bleeding with some sigil procs. Do you REALLY think that backstab and stealth generally is such an issue atm?

Cynz shh

If they knew what most of the 40% to 0% spikes actually consisted of we’d be wading in even more BS.

Just sit back and laugh with me

Cynz.9437:

MMR performance? You do realize LB were a joke for half year at least? I have been on top 100 NA before LB turned into farmboards (i guess i am bad eh?) and i think more counterplay to stealth at current state of classes would just delete thieves from pvp.

My examples were just to show how severe would “counterplay” suggested in this thread.
You can’t blind warrior in zerker stance; you can also block backstab as block usually lasts longer than stealth so i don’t see the point of this argument; you can also doge backstab, most of them are actually highly predictable. I didn’t say there is no counterplay to warrior, same as there is already counterplay (a lot of it actually) to thief stealth. My point is: adding more would be just devastating.

Actually, quite some of ele dmg is instant and often unpredictable (cough procs).

Because revealed debuff denies thieves their defensives(healing, condi removal, dmg mititagtion), thieves are one of very few classes/builds thats defense is also baked into offense. Just imagine that guardian would gain resistance to own healing if his attack got blocked/blinded etc.

To be fair, i actually don’t even bother backstabbing most of the time due to current meta. Backstab requires so much atm (stealth, being behind, actually crit and not die to aoe) and deals such little dmg to most meta classes (celery, engi, shoutbow) that sadly AA is more effective. That is why any more nerfs to stealth and backstab are just overboard, imo, or are you implying that Anet should discourage using backstab even more? I don’t think it would be great design decision.

Here is the joke: look up your death log every time you die. What is killing you most of the time. I bet you my gold that it is burning and bleeding with some sigil procs. Do you REALLY think that backstab and stealth generally is such an issue atm?

There are obviously highly skilled thieves on both sides of the debate, as well as terrible players. That point was addressing Mr. Yolo’s blanket statement that anyone who disagrees with him simply doesn’t know how thief works.

Regarding the efficacy of backstab, it’s primarily an issue for other zerker classes. The tanky cele classes don’t have a hard time dealing with most zerker specs — that’s not a thief issue. (Except that fresh air counters a lot of celengie skills w/ air4 and focus4).

Backstab remains very powerful against zerker specs such as fresh air ele and mesmer. The backstab + an autoattack or two w/ procs will usually trigger panic strike, which means that they’ll have to burn one of their long CDs to avoid dying right there. They’re the ones that really need counterplay vs. stealth. The issue has always been about thieves pushing other zerker builds out of the meta. Talking about how backstab is less effective vs bruisers is kind of irrelevant.

Going back to your counterplay examples, they’re not anywhere near comparable for all the reasons I listed earlier. Your point about warriors and zerker stance also just goes to support what I was saying. You can see that the warrior has activated zerker stance, so you know to use something other than blinds for damage mitigation (for example, interrupting the burst skill, which takes the same amount of initiative as shadowshot). So again, there’s plenty of counterplay there. And again, when you counter the warrior, he loses all his adrenaline and the f1 skill goes on cooldown. That’s far more severe than what happens when a thief misses backstab. Sure, you can dodge stealth, but you may have to burn another cooldown to avoid the second backstab since the thief can immediately retry. Not every class has a high-damage PBAOE attack that they can drop at their feet whenever they avoid a backstab.

And finally, for like the fifth time, I’m not suggesting that thieves get the revealed debuff when they miss. Just that the stealth effect ends prematurely. As a thief, you have a lot of control over whether or not you’re going to whiff the backstab. And as far as survivability goes, this change doesn’t make stealth any weaker as a defensive measure. You also still have blinds + interrupts + mobility/disengages + stealth.

- surely backstab hits hard (on) (omg forums cmon) squishies but frankly squishies can kill thief just as fast; most of the time it comes down to who gets the jump on whom…. i still think that main reason why thieves and mesmers are so popular is conquest and moblity of those classes

- why shouldn’t i bring celestial as argument in this discussion when majority of classes/builds in current pvp are clestial?

- once again, other squishy classes can “one shot” thief as well (see ele procs, mes that knows how to shatter/CC)…. the only class i see maybe having issues with stealth is necros but frankly i think class generally is lacking and it has nothing to do with stealth in particular

- how do you counter war in rampage with zerker stance?

- you don’t even need to dodge backstab…. walking+turning around already helps…

- my point still stays, the change would just discourage use of backstab even more (which is already in majority of time quite uneffective)

I actually don’t think the suggestions are completely unreasonable.

Chill affecting initiative maybe not… Only cuz it would be such a major counter to thief.

But 3s reveal on block/invuln/doge would be fine. We are talking about a class that takes little to no set up to do very high amounts of damage with free escapes. I think that kind of counter play is fair.

Tho I could see stealth attack buffs for thief if balance was to offset.

Daishi.6027:

I actually don’t think the suggestions are completely unreasonable.

Chill affecting initiative maybe not… Only cuz it would be such a major counter to thief.

But 3s reveal on block/invuln/doge would be fine. We are talking about a class that takes little to no set up to do very high amounts of damage with free escapes. I think that kind of counter play is fair.

- define little set up? backstab requires stealth, being behind target in MELEE range (while being one of the most squishies class in game) and actually crit on target

- what free escapes are we talking about here?

StickerHappy.8052:

• Thieves HS not affected by Chill next patch (Distance)
• Thieves Initiative not affected by Chill
• Thieves Weapon Skills not affected by Chill

And you guys still be flopping?

#whatajoke

they are adding slow though which is more severe to fast attacking classes than chill in current state imo~

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

• Thieves HS not affected by Chill next patch (Distance)
• Thieves Initiative not affected by Chill
• Thieves Weapon Skills not affected by Chill

And you guys still be flopping?

#whatajoke

they are adding slow though which is more severe to fast attacking classes than chill in current state imo~

How much is slow going to affect cooldowns of skills?

Cynz.9437:

Daishi.6027:

I actually don’t think the suggestions are completely unreasonable.

Chill affecting initiative maybe not… Only cuz it would be such a major counter to thief.

But 3s reveal on block/invuln/doge would be fine. We are talking about a class that takes little to no set up to do very high amounts of damage with free escapes. I think that kind of counter play is fair.

- define little set up? backstab requires stealth, being behind target in MELEE range (which being one of the most squishies class in game) and actually crit on target

- what free escapes are we talking about here?

Requiring stealth is not much of a requirement for thief. Even the initiative spent from black powder and HS is made back fairly rapidly. At the very least enough to push the offensive and still have enough ini regen where if you wiff you can escape.

Backstab works on the side as well as the back (dunno if bug?) at which point even warriors hit targets on the side on a regular basis. <- and being in stealth ONLY makes landing that easier. Ultimately I don’t think of this as set up.

As for escapes, simply anything that distances yourself from a target, or mitigates damage while using it as a means to disengage, which is a vast amount of the thieves repertoire. Technically not free, but once your ooc it might as well be.

I don’t main thief, so if I’m wrong or missing something please explain or correct me in detailed context, I’m willing to learn. But for now I think OP’s suggestions are fairly balanced.

Cynz.9437:

StickerHappy.8052:

• Thieves HS not affected by Chill next patch (Distance)
• Thieves Initiative not affected by Chill
• Thieves Weapon Skills not affected by Chill

And you guys still be flopping?

#whatajoke

they are adding slow though which is more severe to fast attacking classes than chill in current state imo~

Yeah it might be easier to interrupt the class that has no cooldown penalty for being interrupted on half of their skills in addition to an uninterruptable heal on a 15 sec cooldown. Slow is OBVIOUSLY screwing you guys over more than any other class… You know I don’t think anyone wants to destroy the thief class, but it would just be nice if there was SOME sort of counterplay to any of their mechanics. It’s such kittenty amateur hour class design.

As others have stated increased reveal time would also solve part of the problem. Thief has plenty of evades and other escapes, stealth in its current state is a huge crutch.

Laraley.7695:

Chill needs not to affect attunement swap cooldown.

It’s a bug and it should be fixed.

Wait hold on this is actually a good kitten point tho.

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

And whats wrong with that? It isn’t like anyone in this thread is going to respond to logic or discuss anything anyway. That’s what these kind of threads devolve into because in the end this topic is a haven for trolls. You’de think after 2 years of the same crap everyone would realize that anet isn’t going to do anything about their screaming. And if they did, thieves will happily continue killing the same people on other professions.

Daishi.6027:

Requiring stealth is not much of a requirement for thief. Even the initiative spent from black powder and HS is made back fairly rapidly. At the very least enough to push the offensive and still have enough ini regen where if you wiff you can escape.

Thieves are the class that can least afford to spam skills. Both weaponsets are tied into a single resource pool. On average, thieves use less weapon skills (besides auto attack) than any other class. They can’t just jump in and spam skills offensively… and then spam skills again to get out again. Let’s say a thief jumps in ini signet → BP → HS → BS (9 ini) then autos a while… has to shadow shot to someone (4 ini), interrupts using headshot a heal or something (4 ini). That’s 17 ini already, let’s say this takes place within 8 seconds… the thief has 6 ini left… so to get out again… a single shortbow 5 left? + shadowstep? hardly worth it unless the person was at 40~50% already.

Backstab works on the side as well as the back (dunno if bug?) at which point even warriors hit targets on the side on a regular basis. <- and being in stealth ONLY makes landing that easier. Ultimately I don’t think of this as set up.

In the game there is only front and back, no sides. front = 180 degrees, back = 180 degrees. Honestly speaking, I am not aware of a skill that requires as much set up as backstab. traps maybe…? Depends on how you define set up i guess… but if backstab doesn’t require set up… then no other skill does as well. Also, yes it’s quite easy to hit someone on the side or back on a warrior… or ele… or whatever. Quite a different story when people see a thief stealth and move accordingly. It’s one thing to be hit in the back by a warrior (it makes no difference) and another to let a thief do it. If you aren’t moving around to make it much harder, you’re doing it wrong.

As for escapes, simply anything that distances yourself from a target, or mitigates damage while using it as a means to disengage, which is a vast amount of the thieves repertoire. Technically not free, but once your ooc it might as well be.

Make a thief and try it. They do not have nearly as many escapes as you imagine. Also… OOCing doesn’t make ini come back any faster… nor does it affect our cooldowns… x.x

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

That thread is quite possibly the most entertaining thread on the forums. And what is the point of this thread anyway? All I see is a bunch of people who never played thief and don’t know how easy it actually is to counter one so they call for nerfs.

Okay fine, let’s remove stealth, and while we’re at it, all invulnerabilities and blocks, protection and ranger pets (because they’re annoying). Then we’ll have a bunch of professions that are all similar to one another. Fun fun.

If you cri for nerfs on thief but never have played one lately, go back to LoL. No need of your nonsense on these forums…

choovanski.5462:

i just think a thief should be revealed when they attack you regardless of if the attack does damage or not. currently thief can spam and ignore blinds & aegis, and i just don’t think that’s fair or that it promotes skilled play.

I’m not sure exactly what you’re arguing. Is the thief’s target a skillful player or is he unskilled? If he has blinded the thief, then he knows he is there. He should be reacting in order to keep the thief from his back. He should also assume that the blind was cleansed when the thief entered stealth. If he does not do so, then he is not playing skillfully.

As for aegis, again, what kind of skill is the thief’s target displaying? If he loses aegis prematurely, that should tell him that the thief is on top of his back. He just won half the battle. Dodge, AoE himself, turn and cleave while backing up. The thief will either be dead or destealthed before he can get a successful backstab in. Aegis did exactly what it was supposed to do… it completely nullified the most powerful attack a thief has AND it gave a skillful player the exact location and intention of the thief.

If the thief’s target does not do the above, then he has not yet achieved the ability of skillful play.

choovanski.5462:

your argument and analogy are confused and don’t seem to relate to my point. so, i’m not going to bother with them.

StickerHappy.8052:

Thieves are only ones spouting exaggeration and nonsense here. Like you always do.

See? This is why I can’t take you people seriously. You make points, I counter, then you claim that everything I said was nonsense. Really? Then prove it. Counter me point by point. Yes, we may have disagreements. There are two sides to every coin. But when you don’t have an argument, you start throwing insults because that’s all you have.

PROVE ME WRONG.

Where is my comparison between stealth and invulnerability wrong? Why should an unsuccessful attack in stealth reveal me when even successful attacks do no remove invulnerability?

Stealth is there for two reasons. One is to help a thief avoid damage. The second is to use powerful attacks. If you took away the requirement of stealth in order to do a full-powered backstab, then I’d be happy to attack without stealth. But invulnerable professions can still do full damage while there is nothing a thief can do about it until the invulnerability wears off. A lowly x/dagger thief can’t even stealth off of him to hide. In other words, one profession’s defensive mechanics severely hampers that of another WHILE completely negating its offensive capabilities. Killing two birds with one stone. Absolutely nothing the thief has can even compare to that level of “uncounterability.”

ronpierce.2760:

Which is funny when thieves try to relate SR to Healing Signet and say it’s somehow not as bad.

In the current system, a thief must sacrifice dearly in order to get that healing ability, both actively and passively. Passively, the thief sacrifices damage and evasion. Also, a thief must actively play passively, if you comprehend what I’m saying. He must sacrifice time. Every second lost in order to heal is a second that the opponent has to recover and take advantage. So it’s not as nearly overpowered as suggested. Yes, it appears to be getting a buff in the new trait system. But with all of the other changes, it may be severely needed. We do not know yet.

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it.

Incorrect. You only infer such a thing. It could very well mean that there are a lot of people who either do not know how to properly counter a thief, or they are simply too lazy to learn, so they want thieves nerfed yet again.

Besides, there is such a thing as the “tyranny of the majority.” That’s why democracies are often considered oppressive. Either way, 420 is NOWHERE near a majority of players.

Now, after all of that. What non-thieves should really focus their attention on is the thief’s mobility, especially the “teleports.” That is the real strength of the thief. Stealth is a defensive mechanic that somehow got tied into offensive capability.

But whatever the case, why don’t people start opening threads about HOW to counter thieves instead of how to CREATE more counters to them… counters that most probably won’t even bother to learn, so there will be even MORE calls to create even MORE counters?

Cynz.9437:

ResJudicator.7916:

snip

I define a “good thief” based on past performance on MMR-leaderboards, or how well they do in higher MMR matches, as well as their general knowledge of class mechanics.

Regarding your point about counterplay to other classes, I generally agree that there should be more counterplay, although most of your examples are flat out silly, and completely wrong.

You can see the Warrior F1 skill coming (unless he’s been stealthed), so you can set up your dodge/block/blind/etc. If you dodge/block/blind the Warrior’s F1 skill, he loses his endurance, and the f1 skill goes on cooldown. He also generally won’t get the cleansing ire proc (exception for longbow f1, which procs as long as the arrow hits the ground — this should be fixed). I’m not sure why you think there’s no counterplay here?

The same applies to the ele’s burning speed, firegrab, or phoenix + lightning flash whammo combo. You can see those coming, you can avoid the attack, and now the ele’s skills are on cooldown. In the case of the phoenix + LF combo, the ele’s also burned his only blink.

Also not sure why you think that having characters pop out of stealth (without revealed debuff) when their attack gets dodged/blinded/blocked would somehow delete thieves. How often do you whiff your backstabs? The other guy still has to time his dodge/block/blind, kind of like if he was trying to avoid an eviscerate or flurry, except vs stealthplay he has to do it based solely on timing and prediction.

MMR performance? You do realize LB were a joke for half year at least? I have been on top 100 NA before LB turned into farmboards (i guess i am bad eh?) and i think more counterplay to stealth at current state of classes would just delete thieves from pvp.

My examples were just to show how severe would “counterplay” suggested in this thread.
You can’t blind warrior in zerker stance; you can also block backstab as block usually lasts longer than stealth so i don’t see the point of this argument; you can also doge backstab, most of them are actually highly predictable. I didn’t say there is no counterplay to warrior, same as there is already counterplay (a lot of it actually) to thief stealth. My point is: adding more would be just devastating.

Actually, quite some of ele dmg is instant and often unpredictable (cough procs).

Because revealed debuff denies thieves their defensives(healing, condi removal, dmg mititagtion), thieves are one of very few classes/builds thats defense is also baked into offense. Just imagine that guardian would gain resistance to own healing if his attack got blocked/blinded etc.

To be fair, i actually don’t even bother backstabbing most of the time due to current meta. Backstab requires so much atm (stealth, being behind, actually crit and not die to aoe) and deals such little dmg to most meta classes (celery, engi, shoutbow) that sadly AA is more effective. That is why any more nerfs to stealth and backstab are just overboard, imo, or are you implying that Anet should discourage using backstab even more? I don’t think it would be great design decision.

Here is the joke: look up your death log every time you die. What is killing you most of the time. I bet you my gold that it is burning and bleeding with some sigil procs. Do you REALLY think that backstab and stealth generally is such an issue atm?

Usually burning and sigil procs its true. Sigil procs wont change though

Maris.3164:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

That thread is quite possibly the most entertaining thread on the forums. And what is the point of this thread anyway? All I see is a bunch of people who never played thief and don’t know how easy it actually is to counter one so they call for nerfs.

Okay fine, let’s remove stealth, and while we’re at it, all invulnerabilities and blocks, protection and ranger pets (because they’re annoying). Then we’ll have a bunch of professions that are all similar to one another. Fun fun.

Why? The reveal on missed stealth attack affects mesmer too, not just thief. And it is a legit concern.

Quadox.7834:

Maris.3164:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Why is this thread not locked? Nine pages of ignorant kitten kissing and ad Populum not enough for a lock? I knew this thread was going to be non-constructive the moment I read the title and whaddayaknow, it got really stupid on the first page.

The OP might want some discussion but the people who agree with him don’t. lol

This thread isn’t any worse than that “Nerf Thief” thread you guys have that does nothing but direct thieves where to sabotage threads that mention thief… At least this thread has a point to it…

That thread is quite possibly the most entertaining thread on the forums. And what is the point of this thread anyway? All I see is a bunch of people who never played thief and don’t know how easy it actually is to counter one so they call for nerfs.

Okay fine, let’s remove stealth, and while we’re at it, all invulnerabilities and blocks, protection and ranger pets (because they’re annoying). Then we’ll have a bunch of professions that are all similar to one another. Fun fun.

Why? The reveal on missed stealth attack affects mesmer too, not just thief. And it is a legit concern.

What about invulnerability? Much more powerful a tool than stealth, and something the mesmer for instance has in addition to stealth.

Emi.4152:

In the game there is only front and back, no sides. front = 180 degrees, back = 180 degrees.

No, it’s Back = 90°, LSide = 90°, RSide = 90° and Front = 90°. “From behind” works on 270° out of 360°.

I still do not see why we should be revealed on block/evade/blind, I think the writing alone in white saying “blocked/evaded/blinded” is more then enough because the text is where the thief is so surely you should be able to react to that – and backstab has close to a second after cast, it’s tactical strike that has a very short after cast time and is probably just as dangerous. Many times in duals vs thieves I predicted a dodge while they are in stealth and got the “evade” only for to turn around and CnD right back at him/her because the text told me where they were.

The ONLY thing that might be worth (nerfing) is probably tactical strikes cast time, you spam that 2 times per second so vs ages it’s going to land far easier then bs will do.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I still do not see why we should be revealed on block/evade/blind, I think the writing alone in white saying “blocked/evaded/blinded” is more then enough because the text is where the thief is so surely you should be able to react to that – and backstab has close to a second after cast, it’s tactical strike that has a very short after cast time and is probably just as dangerous. Many times in duals vs thieves I predicted a dodge while they are in stealth and got the “evade” only for to turn around and CnD right back at him/her because the text told me where they were.

The ONLY thing that might be worth (nerfing) is probably tactical strikes cast time, you spam that 2 times per second so vs ages it’s going to land far easier then bs will do.

What about headshot cast time? Shouldn’t a ranged interrupt that is spammable have a cast time associated with it to make sure thieves use their brains when using it.

Head shot cost’s 4 iniative, so if they spam that they will have none left in no time for them do anything else (black powder/heartseeker combo) so they either did use their brain and shut the enemy down at the right time or they were dumb and used up all iniative for 1/4 daze.

Anyway I thought we are discussing counters to stealth?

Linnael.1069:

Laraley.7695:

Chill needs not to affect attunement swap cooldown.

It’s a bug and it should be fixed.

Wait hold on this is actually a good kitten point tho.

(no derailing intended), but +1 to this. Attunement swapping is a mechanic and shouldnt have cd increased by chill.

As for chill and thieves, nah. Think of something else. Maybe add a damage bonus when thieves are chilled. like a perma 5% or something. completely offsetting their rotation is too much for a condition that can be applied regularly every ~5 seconds.

Rickster.8752:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I still do not see why we should be revealed on block/evade/blind, I think the writing alone in white saying “blocked/evaded/blinded” is more then enough because the text is where the thief is so surely you should be able to react to that – and backstab has close to a second after cast, it’s tactical strike that has a very short after cast time and is probably just as dangerous. Many times in duals vs thieves I predicted a dodge while they are in stealth and got the “evade” only for to turn around and CnD right back at him/her because the text told me where they were.

The ONLY thing that might be worth (nerfing) is probably tactical strikes cast time, you spam that 2 times per second so vs ages it’s going to land far easier then bs will do.

What about headshot cast time? Shouldn’t a ranged interrupt that is spammable have a cast time associated with it to make sure thieves use their brains when using it.

Well, i saw a thief yesterday going panic-mode and spamming it 3 times in a row = dead. You even understand teh usage of that skill? 1/4 stun, almost no damage and 4 initiative-cost. Its for interrupting important skills that has to be interrupted and justify the amount of initiative (being a ressource for BOTH weapon-sets).
Look at the knockdown from ranger-LB. Much longer ranger, damage and longer knockdown. Thats why its has a special animation (what headshot has, too) and moderate cooldown (15sec).

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Head shot cost’s 4 iniative, so if they spam that they will have none left in no time for them do anything else (black powder/heartseeker combo) so they either did use their brain and shut the enemy down at the right time or they were dumb and used up all iniative for 1/4 daze.

Anyway I thought we are discussing counters to stealth?

I’m on board with “Reveal on miss/block”.

I have yet to see anything else that isnt downright spiteful in its suggestion.

RE: Headshot cast time

The interrupt is 1/4 second and it uses a third of our init bar. That’s enough. We don’t spam it and if we do, we’re sitting ducks. Asking that the cast time be increased is just like saying “thieves should eat eviscerates and rapid fires”.

It’s a utility tool to stop moves that would eat all of our HP, and putting a cast time on it serves no purpose except removing counterplay from thieves, in the name of adding counterplay to players who didn’t really need to counter headshot.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

(no derailing intended), but +1 to this. Attunement swapping is a mechanic and shouldnt have cd increased by chill.

All class mechanics are affected by chill, even steal.

skowcia.8257:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

(no derailing intended), but +1 to this. Attunement swapping is a mechanic and shouldnt have cd increased by chill.

All class mechanics are affected by chill, even steal.

This is true, but doesn’t attunement count as ele’s weapon swap?

unless I’m nuts and WS is affected by chill-

When I said mechanic, I meant that Ele’s attunement change is a mechanic with skill traits.

Doesnt matter though. stop drop and roll fixes everything.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

skowcia.8257:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

(no derailing intended), but +1 to this. Attunement swapping is a mechanic and shouldnt have cd increased by chill.

All class mechanics are affected by chill, even steal.

This is true, but doesn’t attunement count as ele’s weapon swap?

unless I’m nuts and WS is affected by chill-

When I said mechanic, I meant that Ele’s attunement change is a mechanic with skill traits.

Doesnt matter though. stop drop and roll fixes everything.

Stop, drop and roll is bad. It’s 10 sec cd and most of the time it will just remove burning. Unless you don’t dodge till you have chill on you, but gl with that.

No it doesnt, if that makes you feel better revenant swap will be affected by chill as well cause legend swap is not really a “wep swap”. Theres no need to change that, enough with casualling the game (hello leaps.)

Laraley.7695:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

skowcia.8257:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

(no derailing intended), but +1 to this. Attunement swapping is a mechanic and shouldnt have cd increased by chill.

All class mechanics are affected by chill, even steal.

This is true, but doesn’t attunement count as ele’s weapon swap?

unless I’m nuts and WS is affected by chill-

When I said mechanic, I meant that Ele’s attunement change is a mechanic with skill traits.

Doesnt matter though. stop drop and roll fixes everything.

Stop, drop and roll is bad. It’s 10 sec cd and most of the time it will just remove burning. Unless you don’t dodge till you have chill on you, but gl with that.

Well, I dont use Ele. just trying to understand how it deals with things that more affect its whole playstyle rather than just available skills.

If stop drop and roll is situationally useless because of the CD, then some tweaking needs to be done.

I complained about that about before also.

It is funny that nobody is disturbed that chill has absolutely zero effect during a fight on a Thief (while he is teleporting all the time to his enemy and pays no penalty for resource generation or cooldowns) and absolutely destroys the Ele.

Only effect chill has on Thief he walks slowly away after killing somebody if he is not using the short bow.

Cynz.9437:

- surely backstab hits hard (on) (omg forums cmon) squishies but frankly squishies can kill thief just as fast; most of the time it comes down to who gets the jump on whom….

Exactly! And stealth + mobility means thief always get the jump unless you play with your minimap off. If you take all your arguments to their logical conclusion, you’d see we don’t actually differ that much.

Rickster.8752:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I still do not see why we should be revealed on block/evade/blind, I think the writing alone in white saying “blocked/evaded/blinded” is more then enough because the text is where the thief is so surely you should be able to react to that – and backstab has close to a second after cast, it’s tactical strike that has a very short after cast time and is probably just as dangerous. Many times in duals vs thieves I predicted a dodge while they are in stealth and got the “evade” only for to turn around and CnD right back at him/her because the text told me where they were.

The ONLY thing that might be worth (nerfing) is probably tactical strikes cast time, you spam that 2 times per second so vs ages it’s going to land far easier then bs will do.

What about headshot cast time? Shouldn’t a ranged interrupt that is spammable have a cast time associated with it to make sure thieves use their brains when using it.

Headshot needs a low cast time so you can actually interrupt with it… It’s only purpose is to interrupt (or occasionally to proc sigils/panic if you don’t want to shadowshot or swap to bow).

My biggest problem is the stealth bursts that have became meta, especially on opening splits, it’s kind of frustrating/boring watching stealthed groups run past/on eachother and then 1 shot something.

I don’t really know how to counter it except if they somehow added a cooldown to how fast you could restack it, like say you couldn’t blast stealth more than 5 times every 20 seconds, but I don’t see that as practical at all.

It’s not even just a thief problem though, it’s even more frustating watching the moa from stealth mesmer burst as well. I don’t think this promotes healthy gameplay personally. Classes can easily never see the meta with things as strong as this. Luckily most people can’t play mesmer properly even though it should be meta with how op portal is.

Personal thief stealth I really have no problem with honestly, or mesmer. It’s when a whole group can utilize it for large amounts of time that I think it becomes too much in a PvP format.