Guild Wars 2

Before I begin i’d like to say that I am NOT stating that defensive abilities are bad. That is far from what i’m saying. I am not advocating for the game to become zerk simulator 2015 where it’s all about who can be killed the fastest. I am all for bunker builds, and tankiness through healing and stats and boons.

But something has got to be done about invulnerability, block and evade cycling.

I tried out PvP after getting most of what I wanted to do in HoT done, and the problem I had before with Engineer’s cycling Healing Turret, Shield Block, Throw Elixir S, Traited Elixir S, and Elixir S itself would not have prepared myself for what awaited me here.

Mesmers went from burst assassins to having constant protection, blocks, evades on sword, and invulns on the shatter. Then they continuum shift and do it all over again. Then they hit Alacrity and get it up faster. By the time i’ve maybe had a chance to find a point where a majority of the defensive skills were on cooldown, i’ve wasted god knows how much time and there’s a chance a teammate will show up to clean up the fight.

Then I ran into a couple Revs. Even when I got the timing for their heal down where I would stop attacking, there were little, to no points where I could actually deal meaningful damage. The protection was insane, and once I got through the heal, there was the matter of the block, then the evade, then the assault, then more evades, more prot, block came back, more evades, block, evades, block, repeat.

All the while, Druids were healing these people back up while I can’t hit them.

This is getting absurd. The lines between “This person is vulnerable” and “This person has defensive abilities at the ready” is getting overwhelmingly blurred. I have no idea when to attack the mesmer. I have no idea when to attack the revenant. They are unable to be hit more often than they are not.

This type of gameplay needs to stop. Defensive abilities need to be about REDUCING damage, on top of good defensive stats, to attrition out your opponent without straight up telling them “Lololol you cant hit me lololol”

This wouldn’t be such an issue if this game was designed with every class having access to inherent evades, the dodge. All classes have a built in way to avoid damage, or stall out the fight. When we start piling invulnerability on top of that, it stops being a like a tech block, where you need to use it at a crucial moment, and becomes this twisted, warped type of gameplay where the only way to kill someone, or to ensure that they are indeed vulnerable, is to pile on so much CC that they won’t be able to hit any of their defensive “Buy me time” buttons, even with a stunbreak.

Mesmers have always been kittened not just now, now they are just way over the top.

Invulerability done right – warrior’s endure pain

Invulnerability done wrong – mesmer’s distortion

warrior is right because its still succeptable to conditions and because they dont have stealth and teleport like all the rest classes which are completely dumb cuz of that

Mesmers have one evade on one weapon – blurred frenzy, on a base 12s cooldown, which is usually left untraited because Blinding Dissipation is superior to take.

They have one evade on a utility, providing they trait Chrono – well of precognition (which if they take often means they don’t take decoy – a significant loss of stealth).

Distortion is on a long cooldown, and only reduced if a player takes the Illusions line – which few if no power builds take over any three from Dom/Duel/Chaos/Insp/Chrono, and condi builds have other problems.

There are a maximum of 4 stealth skills, most of the time the maximum used will be 3 – prestige, decoy and Mass invis. If a player uses torch, they are very likely not using shield which means no channeled block defence, or aoe stun/interrupt.

Personal alacrity generation through flow of time and if specifically taking improved alacrity requires frequent shattering to maintain decent up time – but spamming shatters is usually not a smart idea against any decent opponent, especially if playing a power build. For condi builds, even with shatter “spam”, the damage/application is still mediocre and easy to either avoid or counter.

The only way to generate significant alacrity is through traited wells and shield phantasms – but that means a player will sacrifice their utitlity skills (decoy, blink, portal, Condi cleanse, mantra of distraction, time warp, mass invis, superior heals, etc) in order to take sufficient wells – and the playstyle requires standing in a well when it ends to reap the benefit – easier to predict and counter.
As for shield phantasms – again most players running a build with shield don’t use Torch, so that’s at least one less source of stealth (max two others, decoy and mass invis).

Scepter block is single target, single block and pretty useless against multiple hits. Few people use offhand sword, and again if they do that means either no shield, no torch or no two handed weapon (most use at least one lf the two handed weapons in any build). Aegis on PU is random – and if a player is using PU it means one out of either no Chrono, no Deceptive Evasion/Blinding Dissipation, or no torment shatter/ineptitude – a significant tradeoff.
Aegis from chaos storm is also random and has a long cooldown.

There are significant holes in every Mesmer build once you realise the weapon set, utilities and traits they’re running and there are straightforward ways to figure this out quickly from watching what they do in a fight.

The only argument I can accept is CSplit back to back shatter spam – but this is a one trick pony which also requires destroying one or two illusions first to get any decent use from it. Bait it out and once it’s been used up it has a very long cooldown.

Curunen.8729:

Mesmers have one evade on one weapon – blurred frenzy, on a base 12s cooldown, which is usually left untraited because Blinding Dissipation is superior to take.

They have one evade on a utility, providing they trait Chrono – well of precognition (which if they take often means they don’t take decoy – a significant loss of stealth).

Distortion is on a long cooldown, and only reduced if a player takes the Illusions line – which few if no power builds take over any three from Dom/Duel/Chaos/Insp/Chrono, and condi builds have other problems.

There are a maximum of 4 stealth skills, most of the time the maximum used will be 3 – prestige, decoy and Mass invis. If a player uses torch, they are very likely not using shield which means no channeled block defence, or aoe stun/interrupt.

Personal alacrity generation through flow of time and if specifically taking improved alacrity requires frequent shattering to maintain decent up time – but spamming shatters is usually not a smart idea against any decent opponent, especially if playing a power build. For condi builds, even with shatter “spam”, the damage/application is still mediocre and easy to either avoid or counter.

The only way to generate significant alacrity is through traited wells and shield phantasms – but that means a player will sacrifice their utitlity skills (decoy, blink, portal, Condi cleanse, mantra of distraction, time warp, mass invis, superior heals, etc) in order to take sufficient wells – and the playstyle requires standing in a well when it ends to reap the benefit – easier to predict and counter.
As for shield phantasms – again most players running a build with shield don’t use Torch, so that’s at least one less source of stealth (max two others, decoy and mass invis).

Scepter block is single target, single block and pretty useless against multiple hits. Few people use offhand sword, and again if they do that means either no shield, no torch or no two handed weapon (most use at least one lf the two handed weapons in any build). Aegis on PU is random – and if a player is using PU it means one out of either no Chrono, no Deceptive Evasion/Blinding Dissipation, or no torment shatter/ineptitude – a significant tradeoff.
Aegis from chaos storm is also random and has a long cooldown.

There are significant holes in every Mesmer build once you realise the weapon set, utilities and traits they’re running and there are straightforward ways to figure this out quickly from watching what they do in a fight.

The only argument I can accept is CSplit back to back shatter spam – but this is a one trick pony which also requires destroying one or two illusions first to get any decent use from it. Bait it out and once it’s been used up it has a very long cooldown.

A 12s CD on sword #2 is hardly a factor. 4s of Alacrity will fully recharge it, and you cannot seriously imply Alacrity is something that is hard to come by. You also cannot boonstrip it, meaning even cele signet necros aren’t going to help you in this scenario.

And i’m not complaining about stealth. I didn’t even mention that, or Aegis. Stealth can be countered with a plethora of abilities and Aegis can be boonstripped. Straight up blocks require you running anti-block INTERRUPTING abilities, some classes have very easy access to this kind of stuff, like Necro. Other classes aren’t so lucky. Signet of Power, for example, is hardly ever used. Throw mine is hardly ever used. You can maybe make an argument for Spike Trap, but I can’t even remember the last time I saw it.

Once again, I never brought up Aegis or Stealth or whatnot. I’m talking about abilities that basically just read “Block for a long time or become invulnerable.” These abilities need to become less frequent, the more you give to a class the longer they can cycle them. Engineer is the best example of this with them cycling two 4s invulns with a 3s block so they can get off a free, riskless heal and essentially make you have to kill them twice. That isn’t fun. That isn’t esports.

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up. Like I said, defensive abilities need to be less reward, or more risk. There is no risk to just hitting “Blurred Frenzy” and living for two seconds, either you were dead anyways or you potentially turn the fight.

Yup it has gotten pretty insane. I have played the game a fair amount (4k ranked arenas on mes) and recently, more than once i have actually just stopped playing in the middle of a match and just watched. Watching Chrono/Rev/Daredevil and some others just looks crazy now- the window to hit them is abysmally low. Now, i am definitely not arguing that daredevil is op (it isn’t), but the design of most of the classes is just weird at the moment. Full zerker duels take as long as cele ele vs shoutbow used to take before patch.

Almost any class that goes full zerks risk being a burden to their team in competitive pvp.

With all the heavy cc going about, classes need invulnerability just to survive. Guards are forced to take Purification trap instead of Shelter because of the sheer fact that Shelter can now get hard CC by unblockable attacks.

There’s for sure a lot more extremes in the power creep atm. Unless that aspect changes, invuln is needed more now than prepatch.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

A 12s CD on sword #2 is hardly a factor. 4s of Alacrity will fully recharge it, and you cannot seriously imply Alacrity is something that is hard to come by.

You’re wrong.

Permanent alacrity will provide a cooldown reduction to 60% of the original skill. Doing a bit of simple math gets us the following:

12*.6 = 7.2

7.2 seconds of alacrity will recharge blurred frenzy. Almost twice of what your faulty statement is.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Curunen.8729:

Mesmers have one evade on one weapon – blurred frenzy, on a base 12s cooldown, which is usually left untraited because Blinding Dissipation is superior to take.

They have one evade on a utility, providing they trait Chrono – well of precognition (which if they take often means they don’t take decoy – a significant loss of stealth).

Distortion is on a long cooldown, and only reduced if a player takes the Illusions line – which few if no power builds take over any three from Dom/Duel/Chaos/Insp/Chrono, and condi builds have other problems.

There are a maximum of 4 stealth skills, most of the time the maximum used will be 3 – prestige, decoy and Mass invis. If a player uses torch, they are very likely not using shield which means no channeled block defence, or aoe stun/interrupt.

Personal alacrity generation through flow of time and if specifically taking improved alacrity requires frequent shattering to maintain decent up time – but spamming shatters is usually not a smart idea against any decent opponent, especially if playing a power build. For condi builds, even with shatter “spam”, the damage/application is still mediocre and easy to either avoid or counter.

The only way to generate significant alacrity is through traited wells and shield phantasms – but that means a player will sacrifice their utitlity skills (decoy, blink, portal, Condi cleanse, mantra of distraction, time warp, mass invis, superior heals, etc) in order to take sufficient wells – and the playstyle requires standing in a well when it ends to reap the benefit – easier to predict and counter.
As for shield phantasms – again most players running a build with shield don’t use Torch, so that’s at least one less source of stealth (max two others, decoy and mass invis).

Scepter block is single target, single block and pretty useless against multiple hits. Few people use offhand sword, and again if they do that means either no shield, no torch or no two handed weapon (most use at least one lf the two handed weapons in any build). Aegis on PU is random – and if a player is using PU it means one out of either no Chrono, no Deceptive Evasion/Blinding Dissipation, or no torment shatter/ineptitude – a significant tradeoff.
Aegis from chaos storm is also random and has a long cooldown.

There are significant holes in every Mesmer build once you realise the weapon set, utilities and traits they’re running and there are straightforward ways to figure this out quickly from watching what they do in a fight.

The only argument I can accept is CSplit back to back shatter spam – but this is a one trick pony which also requires destroying one or two illusions first to get any decent use from it. Bait it out and once it’s been used up it has a very long cooldown.

A 12s CD on sword #2 is hardly a factor. 4s of Alacrity will fully recharge it, and you cannot seriously imply Alacrity is something that is hard to come by. You also cannot boonstrip it, meaning even cele signet necros aren’t going to help you in this scenario.

And i’m not complaining about stealth. I didn’t even mention that, or Aegis. Stealth can be countered with a plethora of abilities and Aegis can be boonstripped. Straight up blocks require you running anti-block INTERRUPTING abilities, some classes have very easy access to this kind of stuff, like Necro. Other classes aren’t so lucky. Signet of Power, for example, is hardly ever used. Throw mine is hardly ever used. You can maybe make an argument for Spike Trap, but I can’t even remember the last time I saw it.

Once again, I never brought up Aegis or Stealth or whatnot. I’m talking about abilities that basically just read “Block for a long time or become invulnerable.” These abilities need to become less frequent, the more you give to a class the longer they can cycle them. Engineer is the best example of this with them cycling two 4s invulns with a 3s block so they can get off a free, riskless heal and essentially make you have to kill them twice. That isn’t fun. That isn’t esports.

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up. Like I said, defensive abilities need to be less reward, or more risk. There is no risk to just hitting “Blurred Frenzy” and living for two seconds, either you were dead anyways or you potentially turn the fight.

Blurred frenzy is a risk in itself. You root yourself meaning it’s easy for an enemy to wait out the evade and cc/burst as soon as it ends. The damage of blurred frenzy is pitiful and it is also susceptible to retal.

I don’t understand your criticism of blurred frenzy.

I brought up aegis because you talked about blocks in your OP – therefore aegis is relevant as a block. And as stealth is an often complained about mechanic when it comes to Mesmer defence I felt it relevant to discuss when also talking about blocks/invuln/evade.

The only relevant block in that case is Shield 4, which could do with a reduced channel duration.

Blurred frenzy has been nerfed enough over the years – there are plenty of other defensive weapon skills available to spam on a other classes and honestly blurred frenzy is the least worrying of the lot.

Now if we look at revenants UA on the other hand…

Ricky Rouse.1583:

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up.

Wtf did I do?

Anyway I of agree with your views on the… I don’t quite know how to describe it… “defensive/offensive skill spam” that has occurred with the power creep across all classes.

But this is a foundation problem in the design – or at least where the game has ended up with the gradual changes over the years.

I don’t believe it is an easy fix of nerfing defensive skills because there’s so many factors in play that they all need to be gradually changed together.

I would like to see skill usage and timing carry more weight than it currently does, but part of me thinks that boat has sailed, or at least we are a long way off from achieving it.

Quadox.7834:

Yup it has gotten pretty insane. I have played the game a fair amount (4k ranked arenas on mes) and recently, more than once i have actually just stopped playing in the middle of a match and just watched. Watching Chrono/Rev/Daredevil and some others just looks crazy now- the window to hit them is abysmally low. Now, i am definitely not arguing that daredevil is op (it isn’t), but the design of most of the classes is just weird at the moment. Full zerker duels take as long as cele ele vs shoutbow used to take before patch.

daredevil isn’t op? rofl please

Daredevil is just as broken as mesmer if not even more broken with all the new kitten they got. You can’t hit them unless they fail and the damage they do is ridiculous. They have about the most condi removals in the game and the most overpowered and kittened mechanic in the game which is stealth , providing the easiest disengage there is and survivability when everyone else would just die when collapsed on by the enemy.

incisorr.9502:

Quadox.7834:

Yup it has gotten pretty insane. I have played the game a fair amount (4k ranked arenas on mes) and recently, more than once i have actually just stopped playing in the middle of a match and just watched. Watching Chrono/Rev/Daredevil and some others just looks crazy now- the window to hit them is abysmally low. Now, i am definitely not arguing that daredevil is op (it isn’t), but the design of most of the classes is just weird at the moment. Full zerker duels take as long as cele ele vs shoutbow used to take before patch.

daredevil isn’t op? rofl please

Daredevil is just as broken as mesmer if not even more broken with all the new kitten they got. You can’t hit them unless they fail and the damage they do is ridiculous. They have about the most condi removals in the game and the most overpowered and kittened mechanic in the game which is stealth , providing the easiest disengage there is and survivability when everyone else would just die when collapsed on by the enemy.

I have to agree with this. They are invulnerable via evades almost constantly… and then they blind spam. They hit extremely hard and fast, have great condition removal, disengage potential etc. They are also impossible to lockdown as they’ll simply teleport out of any CC.

The only way for mesmers to effectively bunker in this manner is if they chose to take little/no stealth, and do almost NO damage. I run a support/bunker build on my chronomancer and I run a Cleric’s amulet. You give up so many other things in order to run a build like this.

I have a single stun-break on a 45 second CD, NO stealth, 2 CC skills (compared to other mesmer builds with 4-8) and absolutely no mobility. It is extremely rare for me to kill a single target 1v1, but I can survive against 2-3 enemies at once, on point. If i were to leave that point, to help another team-fight out, any other class could decap it faster than I could get back to it because of my terrible mobility. I can barely even survive while travelling because I have to stand in my own wells to survive. Also, I completely melt against 1-2 condi spamming enemies, even with 5 different cleanses.

This is not a problem, because if you were smart you would leave the bunker to 1 point and then 5v4 the other two points.

Stop trying to kill bunkers alone.

Mesmers have all those evades cause they are an illusionist class, they make you look like you’re hitting them but you’re not… Also they are a scholar class they gotta defend themselves somehow.

If they are scholars , then why the heck are they using greatswords?

This is really not about the roleplaying part, or decorum to be correct. Game balance is off at the moment, new specilizations are rewarded a little too much. But it will settle in a month or so. By the way mesmers are a little too defensive with few drawbacks at the moment. But like I said, the balance will be settled in a month or so (I hope).

I would say a big part of the problem is that there are a realativly few skills that can deny block skills. Magent is one and Sigent of Might can let you CC through it (but what Warrior is going to give up sustain for it?) but there’s still not a whole lot of counters to block.

As for invulnerability, I agree that the Warrior way of doing things is much healthier than other classes. On my Engi fights simply tend to just be easier with Elixir S. I can go E gun and do well, but it’s hard to beat a long lasting immunity when it comes to escaping danger. I never understood the hate of Endure/Defy Pain. You can still apply CC and condi and Defy Pain is SUPER predictable. I don’t like having to have both for any kind of real sustain but it’s one of the easiest skills to counter.

Seeing more selective immunity would certainly make things more skillful. Maybe have different types of break bars for direct damage and Condis? That could be cool.

Curunen.8729:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Curunen.8729:

Mesmers have one evade on one weapon – blurred frenzy, on a base 12s cooldown, which is usually left untraited because Blinding Dissipation is superior to take.

They have one evade on a utility, providing they trait Chrono – well of precognition (which if they take often means they don’t take decoy – a significant loss of stealth).

Distortion is on a long cooldown, and only reduced if a player takes the Illusions line – which few if no power builds take over any three from Dom/Duel/Chaos/Insp/Chrono, and condi builds have other problems.

There are a maximum of 4 stealth skills, most of the time the maximum used will be 3 – prestige, decoy and Mass invis. If a player uses torch, they are very likely not using shield which means no channeled block defence, or aoe stun/interrupt.

Personal alacrity generation through flow of time and if specifically taking improved alacrity requires frequent shattering to maintain decent up time – but spamming shatters is usually not a smart idea against any decent opponent, especially if playing a power build. For condi builds, even with shatter “spam”, the damage/application is still mediocre and easy to either avoid or counter.

The only way to generate significant alacrity is through traited wells and shield phantasms – but that means a player will sacrifice their utitlity skills (decoy, blink, portal, Condi cleanse, mantra of distraction, time warp, mass invis, superior heals, etc) in order to take sufficient wells – and the playstyle requires standing in a well when it ends to reap the benefit – easier to predict and counter.
As for shield phantasms – again most players running a build with shield don’t use Torch, so that’s at least one less source of stealth (max two others, decoy and mass invis).

Scepter block is single target, single block and pretty useless against multiple hits. Few people use offhand sword, and again if they do that means either no shield, no torch or no two handed weapon (most use at least one lf the two handed weapons in any build). Aegis on PU is random – and if a player is using PU it means one out of either no Chrono, no Deceptive Evasion/Blinding Dissipation, or no torment shatter/ineptitude – a significant tradeoff.
Aegis from chaos storm is also random and has a long cooldown.

There are significant holes in every Mesmer build once you realise the weapon set, utilities and traits they’re running and there are straightforward ways to figure this out quickly from watching what they do in a fight.

The only argument I can accept is CSplit back to back shatter spam – but this is a one trick pony which also requires destroying one or two illusions first to get any decent use from it. Bait it out and once it’s been used up it has a very long cooldown.

A 12s CD on sword #2 is hardly a factor. 4s of Alacrity will fully recharge it, and you cannot seriously imply Alacrity is something that is hard to come by. You also cannot boonstrip it, meaning even cele signet necros aren’t going to help you in this scenario.

And i’m not complaining about stealth. I didn’t even mention that, or Aegis. Stealth can be countered with a plethora of abilities and Aegis can be boonstripped. Straight up blocks require you running anti-block INTERRUPTING abilities, some classes have very easy access to this kind of stuff, like Necro. Other classes aren’t so lucky. Signet of Power, for example, is hardly ever used. Throw mine is hardly ever used. You can maybe make an argument for Spike Trap, but I can’t even remember the last time I saw it.

Once again, I never brought up Aegis or Stealth or whatnot. I’m talking about abilities that basically just read “Block for a long time or become invulnerable.” These abilities need to become less frequent, the more you give to a class the longer they can cycle them. Engineer is the best example of this with them cycling two 4s invulns with a 3s block so they can get off a free, riskless heal and essentially make you have to kill them twice. That isn’t fun. That isn’t esports.

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up. Like I said, defensive abilities need to be less reward, or more risk. There is no risk to just hitting “Blurred Frenzy” and living for two seconds, either you were dead anyways or you potentially turn the fight.

Blurred frenzy is a risk in itself. You root yourself meaning it’s easy for an enemy to wait out the evade and cc/burst as soon as it ends. The damage of blurred frenzy is pitiful and it is also susceptible to retal.

I don’t understand your criticism of blurred frenzy.

I brought up aegis because you talked about blocks in your OP – therefore aegis is relevant as a block. And as stealth is an often complained about mechanic when it comes to Mesmer defence I felt it relevant to discuss when also talking about blocks/invuln/evade.

The only relevant block in that case is Shield 4, which could do with a reduced channel duration.

Blurred frenzy has been nerfed enough over the years – there are plenty of other defensive weapon skills available to spam on a other classes and honestly blurred frenzy is the least worrying of the lot.

Now if we look at revenants UA on the other hand…

Uh? No? Aegis and Block are different things entirely.

Aegis can be countered. I hit them with some kitten-poor attack that hits a million times, IE Warrior Axe, Flamethrower #1, Revenant Staff, and I just burned the Aegis. Despite that it is STILL countered by anti-block abilities. It is also countered by boon stripping/boon corruption.

Block abilities that read “Block for x seconds” are not the same. I can hit a Guardian with Shelter up or an Engineer or Mesmer with his shield up 1000000 times in the span of the skills duration, it will NEVER expire unless I explicitly not only find an ability that bypasses block itself, but also INTERRUPTS him.

It is much easier to counter aegis than it is to counter gear shield or deja vu.

As for Blurred Frenzy, like I said, its no risk with a huge potential reward. “Lmao rooted in place” is just as stupid a counter argument as people who say “Elixir S removes the ability to do anything”

Yeah, but guess what? You’re still invulnerable. Chances are if Elixir S or Blurred Frenzy won’t save you, nothing will, and you were dead anyways.

So that means nothing to lose —-—> everything to gain

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Curunen.8729:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Curunen.8729:

Mesmers have one evade on one weapon – blurred frenzy, on a base 12s cooldown, which is usually left untraited because Blinding Dissipation is superior to take.

They have one evade on a utility, providing they trait Chrono – well of precognition (which if they take often means they don’t take decoy – a significant loss of stealth).

Distortion is on a long cooldown, and only reduced if a player takes the Illusions line – which few if no power builds take over any three from Dom/Duel/Chaos/Insp/Chrono, and condi builds have other problems.

There are a maximum of 4 stealth skills, most of the time the maximum used will be 3 – prestige, decoy and Mass invis. If a player uses torch, they are very likely not using shield which means no channeled block defence, or aoe stun/interrupt.

Personal alacrity generation through flow of time and if specifically taking improved alacrity requires frequent shattering to maintain decent up time – but spamming shatters is usually not a smart idea against any decent opponent, especially if playing a power build. For condi builds, even with shatter “spam”, the damage/application is still mediocre and easy to either avoid or counter.

The only way to generate significant alacrity is through traited wells and shield phantasms – but that means a player will sacrifice their utitlity skills (decoy, blink, portal, Condi cleanse, mantra of distraction, time warp, mass invis, superior heals, etc) in order to take sufficient wells – and the playstyle requires standing in a well when it ends to reap the benefit – easier to predict and counter.
As for shield phantasms – again most players running a build with shield don’t use Torch, so that’s at least one less source of stealth (max two others, decoy and mass invis).

Scepter block is single target, single block and pretty useless against multiple hits. Few people use offhand sword, and again if they do that means either no shield, no torch or no two handed weapon (most use at least one lf the two handed weapons in any build). Aegis on PU is random – and if a player is using PU it means one out of either no Chrono, no Deceptive Evasion/Blinding Dissipation, or no torment shatter/ineptitude – a significant tradeoff.
Aegis from chaos storm is also random and has a long cooldown.

There are significant holes in every Mesmer build once you realise the weapon set, utilities and traits they’re running and there are straightforward ways to figure this out quickly from watching what they do in a fight.

The only argument I can accept is CSplit back to back shatter spam – but this is a one trick pony which also requires destroying one or two illusions first to get any decent use from it. Bait it out and once it’s been used up it has a very long cooldown.

A 12s CD on sword #2 is hardly a factor. 4s of Alacrity will fully recharge it, and you cannot seriously imply Alacrity is something that is hard to come by. You also cannot boonstrip it, meaning even cele signet necros aren’t going to help you in this scenario.

And i’m not complaining about stealth. I didn’t even mention that, or Aegis. Stealth can be countered with a plethora of abilities and Aegis can be boonstripped. Straight up blocks require you running anti-block INTERRUPTING abilities, some classes have very easy access to this kind of stuff, like Necro. Other classes aren’t so lucky. Signet of Power, for example, is hardly ever used. Throw mine is hardly ever used. You can maybe make an argument for Spike Trap, but I can’t even remember the last time I saw it.

Once again, I never brought up Aegis or Stealth or whatnot. I’m talking about abilities that basically just read “Block for a long time or become invulnerable.” These abilities need to become less frequent, the more you give to a class the longer they can cycle them. Engineer is the best example of this with them cycling two 4s invulns with a 3s block so they can get off a free, riskless heal and essentially make you have to kill them twice. That isn’t fun. That isn’t esports.

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up. Like I said, defensive abilities need to be less reward, or more risk. There is no risk to just hitting “Blurred Frenzy” and living for two seconds, either you were dead anyways or you potentially turn the fight.

Blurred frenzy is a risk in itself. You root yourself meaning it’s easy for an enemy to wait out the evade and cc/burst as soon as it ends. The damage of blurred frenzy is pitiful and it is also susceptible to retal.

I don’t understand your criticism of blurred frenzy.

I brought up aegis because you talked about blocks in your OP – therefore aegis is relevant as a block. And as stealth is an often complained about mechanic when it comes to Mesmer defence I felt it relevant to discuss when also talking about blocks/invuln/evade.

The only relevant block in that case is Shield 4, which could do with a reduced channel duration.

Blurred frenzy has been nerfed enough over the years – there are plenty of other defensive weapon skills available to spam on a other classes and honestly blurred frenzy is the least worrying of the lot.

Now if we look at revenants UA on the other hand…

Uh? No? Aegis and Block are different things entirely.

Aegis can be countered. I hit them with some kitten-poor attack that hits a million times, IE Warrior Axe, Flamethrower #1, Revenant Staff, and I just burned the Aegis. Despite that it is STILL countered by anti-block abilities. It is also countered by boon stripping/boon corruption.

Block abilities that read “Block for x seconds” are not the same. I can hit a Guardian with Shelter up or an Engineer or Mesmer with his shield up 1000000 times in the span of the skills duration, it will NEVER expire unless I explicitly not only find an ability that bypasses block itself, but also INTERRUPTS him.

It is much easier to counter aegis than it is to counter gear shield or deja vu.

As for Blurred Frenzy, like I said, its no risk with a huge potential reward. “Lmao rooted in place” is just as stupid a counter argument as people who say “Elixir S removes the ability to do anything”

Yeah, but guess what? You’re still invulnerable. Chances are if Elixir S or Blurred Frenzy won’t save you, nothing will, and you were dead anyways.

So that means nothing to lose —-—> everything to gain

Going along with this line of thinking, there should be a number of blocks limit to every kind of block skill(3x or 5x or 8x). It’ll allow more than just unblockable counter play like with aegis.

The invulnerable skills should also go away from weapons and back to the utility skills section which actually forces the user to make a choice. Right now there are too many invulnerability skills that are on the weapon that has short cool down with zero down side.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Curunen.8729:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Curunen.8729:

Mesmers have one evade on one weapon – blurred frenzy, on a base 12s cooldown, which is usually left untraited because Blinding Dissipation is superior to take.

They have one evade on a utility, providing they trait Chrono – well of precognition (which if they take often means they don’t take decoy – a significant loss of stealth).

Distortion is on a long cooldown, and only reduced if a player takes the Illusions line – which few if no power builds take over any three from Dom/Duel/Chaos/Insp/Chrono, and condi builds have other problems.

There are a maximum of 4 stealth skills, most of the time the maximum used will be 3 – prestige, decoy and Mass invis. If a player uses torch, they are very likely not using shield which means no channeled block defence, or aoe stun/interrupt.

Personal alacrity generation through flow of time and if specifically taking improved alacrity requires frequent shattering to maintain decent up time – but spamming shatters is usually not a smart idea against any decent opponent, especially if playing a power build. For condi builds, even with shatter “spam”, the damage/application is still mediocre and easy to either avoid or counter.

The only way to generate significant alacrity is through traited wells and shield phantasms – but that means a player will sacrifice their utitlity skills (decoy, blink, portal, Condi cleanse, mantra of distraction, time warp, mass invis, superior heals, etc) in order to take sufficient wells – and the playstyle requires standing in a well when it ends to reap the benefit – easier to predict and counter.
As for shield phantasms – again most players running a build with shield don’t use Torch, so that’s at least one less source of stealth (max two others, decoy and mass invis).

Scepter block is single target, single block and pretty useless against multiple hits. Few people use offhand sword, and again if they do that means either no shield, no torch or no two handed weapon (most use at least one lf the two handed weapons in any build). Aegis on PU is random – and if a player is using PU it means one out of either no Chrono, no Deceptive Evasion/Blinding Dissipation, or no torment shatter/ineptitude – a significant tradeoff.
Aegis from chaos storm is also random and has a long cooldown.

There are significant holes in every Mesmer build once you realise the weapon set, utilities and traits they’re running and there are straightforward ways to figure this out quickly from watching what they do in a fight.

The only argument I can accept is CSplit back to back shatter spam – but this is a one trick pony which also requires destroying one or two illusions first to get any decent use from it. Bait it out and once it’s been used up it has a very long cooldown.

A 12s CD on sword #2 is hardly a factor. 4s of Alacrity will fully recharge it, and you cannot seriously imply Alacrity is something that is hard to come by. You also cannot boonstrip it, meaning even cele signet necros aren’t going to help you in this scenario.

And i’m not complaining about stealth. I didn’t even mention that, or Aegis. Stealth can be countered with a plethora of abilities and Aegis can be boonstripped. Straight up blocks require you running anti-block INTERRUPTING abilities, some classes have very easy access to this kind of stuff, like Necro. Other classes aren’t so lucky. Signet of Power, for example, is hardly ever used. Throw mine is hardly ever used. You can maybe make an argument for Spike Trap, but I can’t even remember the last time I saw it.

Once again, I never brought up Aegis or Stealth or whatnot. I’m talking about abilities that basically just read “Block for a long time or become invulnerable.” These abilities need to become less frequent, the more you give to a class the longer they can cycle them. Engineer is the best example of this with them cycling two 4s invulns with a 3s block so they can get off a free, riskless heal and essentially make you have to kill them twice. That isn’t fun. That isn’t esports.

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up. Like I said, defensive abilities need to be less reward, or more risk. There is no risk to just hitting “Blurred Frenzy” and living for two seconds, either you were dead anyways or you potentially turn the fight.

Blurred frenzy is a risk in itself. You root yourself meaning it’s easy for an enemy to wait out the evade and cc/burst as soon as it ends. The damage of blurred frenzy is pitiful and it is also susceptible to retal.

I don’t understand your criticism of blurred frenzy.

I brought up aegis because you talked about blocks in your OP – therefore aegis is relevant as a block. And as stealth is an often complained about mechanic when it comes to Mesmer defence I felt it relevant to discuss when also talking about blocks/invuln/evade.

The only relevant block in that case is Shield 4, which could do with a reduced channel duration.

Blurred frenzy has been nerfed enough over the years – there are plenty of other defensive weapon skills available to spam on a other classes and honestly blurred frenzy is the least worrying of the lot.

Now if we look at revenants UA on the other hand…

Uh? No? Aegis and Block are different things entirely.

Aegis can be countered. I hit them with some kitten-poor attack that hits a million times, IE Warrior Axe, Flamethrower #1, Revenant Staff, and I just burned the Aegis. Despite that it is STILL countered by anti-block abilities. It is also countered by boon stripping/boon corruption.

Block abilities that read “Block for x seconds” are not the same. I can hit a Guardian with Shelter up or an Engineer or Mesmer with his shield up 1000000 times in the span of the skills duration, it will NEVER expire unless I explicitly not only find an ability that bypasses block itself, but also INTERRUPTS him.

It is much easier to counter aegis than it is to counter gear shield or deja vu.

As for Blurred Frenzy, like I said, its no risk with a huge potential reward. “Lmao rooted in place” is just as stupid a counter argument as people who say “Elixir S removes the ability to do anything”

Yeah, but guess what? You’re still invulnerable. Chances are if Elixir S or Blurred Frenzy won’t save you, nothing will, and you were dead anyways.

So that means nothing to lose —-—> everything to gain

In my opinion aegis is as relevant as anything that causes you to potentially not receive damage from an attack – whether a single block or a channeled block.

Well then it seems you don’t like channelled “blocks” in general? Is it the duration of the “block”, the number of “blocks” or the concept of negating damage for a small period of time? You could include every skill that has a built in evade, every dodge and so on.

So I’m assuming it’s the frequency of these damage avoidance skills that is the problem?

Mesmer only has 4 of those – blurred frenzy, shield 4, well of precognition and Distortion.

Personally I don’t see how that can be considered too much given the cooldowns they are on and the durations, even with alacrity, even with F5. The only thing I believe could do with a change is slightly reducing the duration of the shield block (numbers such as 1.75s have been thrown around). And the second thing is suggestions of slightly increasing well of precognition to 50s.

I think there is far more “block” spam from various other classes (including evade spam and invuln), and other than those two things of shield 4 and well of precognition mesmer is a non-issue.

Otherwise I don’t see the problem with skills that prevent damage because I don’t see the up time of them as being impenetrable beyond a few very niche builds.

Puck.9612:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

I don’t want to play a game where every other character plays like Puck, and half their play-style revolves around becoming invulnerable long enough to wait for cooldowns or allies to show up.

Wtf did I do?

Hahaha, this amused me. You may be aware, but if not, Puck is a character in DotA 2 that is very well known for his ability to escape ridiculous circumstances by blinking around/phasing out to be unhittable.

As far as the OP, for me the sum of the parts feel out of hand. Constant protection, seemingly frequent invulnerabilities, frequent blinds, block chaining, evade ability/roll chaining, frequent stealth usage. You can do a little something to each of these, but they are laid on so thick that it feels crazy sometimes.

Fighting these classes/builds is like double-dutch, and it goes against our sense of fairness if they get to do it but we don’t. The risk/reward in chaining unhittable circumstances is skewed insanely towards reward. The only risk is an opponent knowing when your little windows are, at which point you actually have to fight your opponent instead of chain through your abilities.

However, I don’t know what a good fix would be, because they’ve also set a precedent for instant cast abilities that are extremely punishing, along with having boon and condition spam happening almost incidentally as opposed to intentionally. Without these chains, I’m not sure how long these classes would live, so I think our best bet is to organize practice against them with friends/etc. and get a feel for how they function.

OP specifically mentions Engineer, which I play a lot, so I’ll add some perspective:

I’m running Rocket Boots, Grenade Kit, and Toolkit untraited (channeled block every 20s).

That toolkit shield block is my ONLY defense against sustained damage. If I need to get through aoe spam, or survive being focused, or if I expect thief hitting from stealth, I need that to work. It is already significantly worse than it used to be with lots of unblockable skills out there (necro, etc.)

Yes, I could run elixir S and stall for more time, but that doesn’t help the match because you can’t contest the point while stealthed or mini-invulned.

I think one of two things happened. Either the devs sat down and said how do we make PvP the most irritating game mode to play, or they didn’t talk to each other at all leading to the same result. PvP balance is in the biggest mess since the game launched. I can’t believe any of this junk was tested properly before HoT released. Evade builds leading to no or little opportunity to hit, ridiculous amounts of might and vulnerability stacking and one weapon one skill game play. They keep mentioning active play and counterplay, but make elites that are the opposite. PvP really isn’t fun to play any more.