Guild Wars 2

Vornollo.5182:

megilandil.7506:

Vornollo.5182:

We can also take some fights against Necro’s and Warriors, but they take way too much time to actually be worth it.

this is the worse and more recurrent argument that thieves uses: fights againts x last so long
when talking about balance or x class countering y class time is not a measure, the matter of it is the final outcome and the odds of it
in thief users view seems that if they can instagang other class that clas is a harcounter to them when in most cases that class only had capability of resist thieves atemps to instakill them and recover faster when thieves try to reset the fight, but not any capability of chasing down the thief if they run out of the combat, a hard counter is that one that can make the thieve invisible and meaningless in the match and there is only one , other thief(that also is soft-countered in some way cuz they only hunts the other thief having litle time to decap/+1(his main role))

“Some Fights” is rather key here. It requires us to have our CD’s ready to go (which often we don’t due to having to use Initiative, our Dodges -> Heal and sometimes even our Stunbreak/Condicleanse that is Shadowstep) [<QUICK EDIT: This also includes a situation where they have spent most of their CD’s… It’s both very circumstantial, especially the warrior matchup>].
You simply can not judge PvP on a 1v1 basis. PvP doesn’t work like that. If you got issues with an enemy thief, it’s an issue for your entire team not being able to simply hold 2 points.
Like has been said before, if you can hold onto 2 points the Thief gets forced into teamfights and (s)he’ll be as close to useless as one can be.

Really, what is the deal with people and judging a 5v5 gamemode based on 1v1’s..?
5v5, 1v1, see the difference?

You misunderstand the complaint.

People get tilted at thieves complaining about fights being “too long” because some of us play classes that can’t even win equal fight regardless of duration.

To us thief complaints are like rich people complaining about their gold-plating toilet being dented

xp eke xp.6724:

At the maprotation there are only 2 classes that can check thief:
a other thief and ranger.
Mesmer can do it too but why waisting a portal for that, if you can controll the fights?

to counter a thief in 1v1:
thief

But thief got one thing that hardcounters him:

Teamfights, cause he is not very usefull at this, maybe finishing and ruppting some enermies but the teamdmg/ support is higher on teams without thiefes. So play at 2 points and force the teamfights, that outplay the thief completely as long your team is as good as the enermies team.

Oh and if the thief do a 1v1 instead to +1 (by decap or joining fights) he do crap, cause it needs too long time and the points ticking bether for enermie team (again just if we look same player-skills at both sides).

His first rolle at teams is to abuse the +1 situation, the second to create that and after that something else. So if you counter that you counter the thief ;D

Thats why Vornollo is right. But yea it´s a 5v5, if the one of your team do bad the thief will be the first punisher

It is not always good strategy to play 2 points against team with a thief.

If the team composition is 4 good teamfighters(sth like ele+engi+necro+dh) + 1 thief, then 2 point strategy is absolutely the worst.

If you go 5v4 team fight and try to team wipe them, it gets really risky. The thief will get the other 2 caps and it is not easy to win that teamfight AND get the kills in a timely manner. If some of the other team is smart, they will just play a sustain game against you.

If you go for 4v4 team fight and keep one player chasing the thief. With superior mobility, the thief will always make sure they have one of the other two caps. He will also have time window to +1 the teamfight when the chaser is capping or rotating.

In short, a team composition with 4 teamfighters + 1 thief is actually great against any 2 point safe strategy.

Cynz.9437:

If thief attempts to decap your home, you can just RTL there – there will be no decap fight.

I remembermber some1 where moaning too with 18 sec Ride of the Lighting :P

DUDED , when a ranger uses RTL he doesnt teleport to from base to base …. but he teleports to my house …thats how OP is is !

If the team composition is 4 good teamfighters(sth like ele+engi+necro+dh) + 1 thief, then 2 point strategy is absolutely the worst.

well, if your team is one without thief, what woud be the strongest teamset?
ele+necro is clear, the rest shoud be good at teamfights and alone, maybe rev+mesmer+ ranger. So the teamcomb against your is: engi+dh+ thief against rev+mes+ranger cause ele and necro are both at the teams.

now hf to calc it yourself

If you go 5v4 team fight and try to team wipe them, it gets really risky. The thief will get the other 2 caps and it is not easy to win that teamfight AND get the kills in a timely manner. If some of the other team is smart, they will just play a sustain game against you.

yea but no cause the team without thief wins the teamfight, so the other have to push back or they wipe, so one point is save decaped and the other yours. The last point is maybe save one for the enermie but they allways risk a teamwipe and then they loose theyr home.
The mobillity is high enouth to roam between 2 points as long it´s not far-close, for hold one point and the decap at the other, if you take a mesmer in it you can hold both. If the enermie have a mesmer too, then just take them away and look at the last 2 classes and how they synergie with the team.

If you go for 4v4 team fight and keep one player chasing the thief. With superior mobility, the thief will always make sure they have one of the other two caps. He will also have time window to +1 the teamfight when the chaser is capping or rotating.

the thief kills himself if he join a teamfight so there is no reason to chase, even if a class coud do it one day. So if the duell least too long just join the teamfight and the thief can´t finish.

In short, a team composition with 4 teamfighters + 1 thief is actually great against any 2 point safe strategy.

i have to correct that teamcomb just good against bunker comb, cause they need to play save at 2 points, but have no dmg so the thief can join teamfights

Edit: the easyerst way to find out what a comb can play at 2 point is to say you got the same classes as the other team and only instead of a thief you use another to look what force the teamfight bether. like on your set: guard,ele,necro,engee. Instead of thief take a ranger and tada your team can´t loose as long they play at 2 points

As Bunker Druid, I can sit here and wall a thief all day even with the stab changes. Not easy to pin them down unless they are bad however.

hiems.8769:

It’s fun to see all this “playing on paper” because nothing of what’s said before about points will work in any match besides a 5v5 coordenated one with voice chat. People literally just run to 1 or 2 points when they see the crossed swords simbol, that’s it, there’s no strategy. Every match I feel like playing with 10 yo kids smashing buttons on the middle point to see who’s doing more damage and I doubt that anyone here can claim anything else.

The theory craft about points made on forum doesn’t really matters.

This is the problem with players that complain about thief. If you play thief yourself, you always have one eye on map (or should at least), you see where enemy thief goes before they even got to another point. This is what everyone should do tbh but due to nature of the class (warriord/guards fight clubbing on point) they don’t usually. I had quite few thieves reporting me for hacking because i followed their movement on map and predicted where they would go so i could kill them, this is sadly not a joke.

I think the op is asking the wrong question. Thief really isn’t a issue, but evade having no hard counter can be.

Aza.2105:

I think the op is asking the wrong question. Thief really isn’t a issue, but evade having no hard counter can be.

Evades have Hard counters…. look at any ward style affect, quite a few classes have them, and let’s not forget the past couple patches Thief evades have been nerfed…and your line of thinking can be applied to invulns, which they don’t have any hardcounters and more classes have access to invulns and invuln style affects on top of having Evade skills…

Aza.2105:

I think the op is asking the wrong question. Thief really isn’t a issue, but evade having no hard counter can be.

There are plenty of spells that counter evades. But let’s assume for a second that Anet nerfs evades even more (despite nerfing them basically every patch so far), how should thief survive? This is a legit question. Stealth is not an option due to abundance of reveals and stealth not really providing damage mitigation. What is left? I am genuinely curious.

Guardian’s greatsword + Judge’s Intervention,
Dragonhunter’s traps (expecially ToF) counter thieves,
Spear of Justice prevent stealth and with the pull can interrupt dodge roll.

So.. Guardian and Dragonhunter counter thief.

Let’s be honest here, most evade counters are on guardian/DH with very few if any on other classes and they are pretty slow outside a few select teleports.

apharma.3741:

Let’s be honest here, most evade counters are on guardian/DH with very few if any on other classes and they are pretty slow outside a few select teleports.

Isn’t it what OP asked for?

But a counter does exist, Aza said no counter exists for Evades, which is a lie. And yes the majority are on Guardian/DH, but Necro has one, Ele has some, Engie has one, so to say it with me there are counters to Evades in this game.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Let’s be honest here, most evade counters are on guardian/DH with very few if any on other classes and they are pretty slow outside a few select teleports.

Isn’t it what OP asked for?

Here is the OP:

Mydnyght.5026:

So as a mesmer main being hardcountered by thief I’d like to know what is the class that hardcounter thief the same way that thief hardcounter mesmer ?

Thanks

A guardian/DH’s presence on a team does not shut down a thief entirely on its own, it makes a thieves job more difficult but it is not a hard counter due to its lack of mobility.

Anything that applies weakness can help counter evades. Lower endurance regeneration means less evades. Most classes have access to weakness. It not a direct counter but it certainly helps lower the evade players effectiveness when it applied.

As a counter its relationship to the more direct means already listed is much like that of a condition cleanse’s relationship to resistance as a counter to conditions. Any thief can tell you that s/he will soon run out of evades if they always have weakness on them.

Sly.9518:

But a counter does exist, aka said no counter exists for Evades, which is a lie. And yes the majority are on Guardian/DH, but Necro has one, Ele has some, Engie has one, so to say it with me there are counters to Evades in this game.

Yes, I was pointing out that most are pretty much only on one class that you have to worry about. DH and guards have tons of unevadable attacks and are very common to see, in fact we can probably bet the new weapon will have an attack which cannot be dodged. I cant remember the last time I encountered slick shoes and spectral wall tbh, not saying they don’t exist, just that I don’t particularly have to worry about them.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Let’s be honest here, most evade counters are on guardian/DH with very few if any on other classes and they are pretty slow outside a few select teleports.

Isn’t it what OP asked for?

Here is the OP:

Mydnyght.5026:

So as a mesmer main being hardcountered by thief I’d like to know what is the class that hardcounter thief the same way that thief hardcounter mesmer ?

Thanks

A guardian/DH’s presence on a team does not shut down a thief entirely on its own, it makes a thieves job more difficult but it is not a hard counter due to its lack of mobility.

So he wants to counter roamers, not thieves by your definition. As stated before, map awareness and good teamplay are counters to that which has been proved in many tourneys.

@apharma.3741: i actually saw quite few necros using spectral wall but maybe it is EU thing.

Sly.9518:

Aza.2105:

I think the op is asking the wrong question. Thief really isn’t a issue, but evade having no hard counter can be.

Evades have Hard counters…. look at any ward style affect, quite a few classes have them, and let’s not forget the past couple patches Thief evades have been nerfed…and your line of thinking can be applied to invulns, which they don’t have any hardcounters and more classes have access to invulns and invuln style affects on top of having Evade skills…

Invulnerabilities have hefty cooldowns, so its balanced by that. Let me be more specific, its skills that evade and do damage at once. Wards…you mean pulsing style skills right? Then yes, sort of. They can still be evaded through, so its not a hard counter. There are no skills in game that can not be evaded. Which is my point. There are no hard counters.

Cynz.9437:

Aza.2105:

I think the op is asking the wrong question. Thief really isn’t a issue, but evade having no hard counter can be.

There are plenty of spells that counter evades. But let’s assume for a second that Anet nerfs evades even more (despite nerfing them basically every patch so far), how should thief survive? This is a legit question. Stealth is not an option due to abundance of reveals and stealth not really providing damage mitigation. What is left? I am genuinely curious.

I can’t disagree with what you are questioning really. If they introduce hard evade counters then thief will vanish from pvp. I always felt the design of thief was so polarizing and extreme that it makes them very hard to balance. They would need a entire rework and even then they would probably end up worse than they were in the beginning.

Aza.2105:

Sly.9518:

Aza.2105:

I think the op is asking the wrong question. Thief really isn’t a issue, but evade having no hard counter can be.

Evades have Hard counters…. look at any ward style affect, quite a few classes have them, and let’s not forget the past couple patches Thief evades have been nerfed…and your line of thinking can be applied to invulns, which they don’t have any hardcounters and more classes have access to invulns and invuln style affects on top of having Evade skills…

Invulnerabilities have hefty cooldowns, so its balanced by that. Let me be more specific, its skills that evade and do damage at once. Wards…you mean pulsing style skills right? Then yes, sort of. They can still be evaded through, so its not a hard counter. There are no skills in game that can not be evaded. Which is my point. There are no hard counters.

No they aren’t pulsing style I mean wards as in any effect that stops a player from moving through an area, Wall of Terror doesn’t pulse, line of warding doesn’t pulse, Dragons Maw doesn’t pulse, Hunters Ward doesn’t pulse, sanctuary doesn’t pulse, ring of warding doesn’t pulse, unsteady ground doesn’t pulse……… and none of those skills can be evaded through.

and a CD isn’t a hardcounters to Invulnerability…….. and a few of invulns /pseudo invulns allow you to attack while being invulnerable.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

Let’s be honest here, most evade counters are on guardian/DH with very few if any on other classes and they are pretty slow outside a few select teleports.

Isn’t it what OP asked for?

Here is the OP:

Mydnyght.5026:

So as a mesmer main being hardcountered by thief I’d like to know what is the class that hardcounter thief the same way that thief hardcounter mesmer ?

Thanks

A guardian/DH’s presence on a team does not shut down a thief entirely on its own, it makes a thieves job more difficult but it is not a hard counter due to its lack of mobility.

So he wants to counter roamers, not thieves by your definition. As stated before, map awareness and good teamplay are counters to that which has been proved in many tourneys.

@apharma.3741: i actually saw quite few necros using spectral wall but maybe it is EU thing.

Not my definition, by the OPs definition, that is what he was asking. My response was about something related but different, evades and what counters them and how most are on DH so I don’t know where you’re going with this as I never disagreed with map awareness or 2 point strata.

I don’t see spectral wall that often but it’s pretty much all subjective.

sanctuary is the only one that does pulse

Kuya.6495:

sanctuary is the only one that does pulse

Eh I missed it, kitten….