Guild Wars 2

What happened with engis anyway? I remember early on playing against engi builds that had high mobility and regen but low damage, some with high burst damage but were fairly squishy, and ones with a fair amount of cc but not too much damage.

These days they have builds with great mobility high damage, high damage mitigation/regen, and lots of hard cc, or are tough as nails with turrets that seem extremely strong, or seem to be able to constantly evade, go into stealth quicker than a d/p thief, fart aoe cc.

When and how did they go from somewhat balanced to monsters?

Yasha.5963:

What happened with engis anyway? I remember early on playing against engi builds that had high mobility and regen but low damage, some with high burst damage but were fairly squishy, and ones with a fair amount of cc but not too much damage.

These days they have builds with great mobility high damage, high damage mitigation/regen, and lots of hard cc, or are tough as nails with turrets that seem extremely strong, or seem to be able to constantly evade, go into stealth quicker than a d/p thief, fart aoe cc.

When and how did they go from somewhat balanced to monsters?

Combination of people finally learnt to play Engi’s because of “pro’s” motivation as well as Cele gears introduction.

So much hype.
Injustice: Engis among us.

The pvp balance is in better state than ever. No need to nerf anything especially now that some shaving was announced.

All classes appear on tournaments and no class is dead weight when in properly built team. Balance is not about 1 v1 and if it was, engis would need buffs.

Cenzuo.6328:

Vee Wee makes a good suggestion here, swapping traits instead of directly nerfing skills might encourage trying out new builds.

It would be quite bad, imho.
As the trait is now, the effects are comparable to any other similar “reduce recharge of a single weapon + do something fancy” trait. To give it a grandmaster slot they should improve its effects, else it wouldn’t be worth the slot.
But having a single utility/kit trait at grandmaster slot has already proven to be a terrible balancing choice (see Grenadier – being a focused grandmaster trait they had to make it really good…and ended up balancing all the kit upon that trait, making the base one useless).
It would likely end up as grenadier. So…don’t do that, please.

Vieteriukko.6075:

Balance is not about 1 v1 and if it was, engis would need buffs.

Wait, no…

insanemaniac.2456:

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

Engi CC,condition and boon duration are too long. Confusion,vulnerability,swiftness,retaliation,regen need duration shave and the CC need new animation.

im confused about the boon duration part. are you referring to turret engis? the only boon celengi builds abuse is battle sigil’s might.

People are trying to get all the positive effects from all builds and say it is on celestial rifle hahahaha. Maybe they should also say that engis have pets, clones, virtues, banners, can 1shot from 5k range, perma stealth,etc..

Just a apathetic attempt to get rage against the engi class.

i saw that from his response

just a teef who gets rekt so fast he has no time to think about what the engi is doing. its how it should be i guess, since engi has good matches against teef in general. i bet he thinks mesmers are underpowered too.

Not all I play every class from more thief to ele less for safety purposes, I also mentioned that I don’t care about celestial since I usually won against them and I run condi or CC spec and I am no 1v1 hero luckily . Don’t make me teach you how to read please. Celestial has nothing to do with it it’s engi nature that is the issue.

I played celestial,rabid,SD,FT burst and even turreteer in pvp, I run perplexity in wvw and FT zerk in pve I am familiar with the class. Also lol I love fighting mesmer,war and ranger.

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

Engi CC,condition and boon duration are too long. Confusion,vulnerability,swiftness,retaliation,regen need duration shave and the CC need new animation.

im confused about the boon duration part. are you referring to turret engis? the only boon celengi builds abuse is battle sigil’s might.

People are trying to get all the positive effects from all builds and say it is on celestial rifle hahahaha. Maybe they should also say that engis have pets, clones, virtues, banners, can 1shot from 5k range, perma stealth,etc..

Just a apathetic attempt to get rage against the engi class.

i saw that from his response

just a teef who gets rekt so fast he has no time to think about what the engi is doing. its how it should be i guess, since engi has good matches against teef in general. i bet he thinks mesmers are underpowered too.

Not all I play every class from more thief to ele less for safety purposes, I also mentioned that I don’t care about celestial since I usually won against them and I run condi or CC spec and I am no 1v1 hero luckily . Don’t make me teach you how to read please. Celestial has nothing to do with it it’s engi nature that is the issue.

I played celestial,rabid,SD,FT burst and even turreteer in pvp, I run perplexity in wvw and FT zerk in pve I am familiar with the class. Also lol I love fighting mesmer,war and ranger.

But hate the necros? Don’t you?
Good thing they are VERY few and far between in Roaming WvW these days.

Shadow of Azrael.1205:

insanemaniac.2456:

nothing is more passive than battle, it only requires you to be in combat. air/fire require you to connect your hits too.

Lol whats the point of having battle sig if you dont hit anything? Both stats and hit/crit proc sigils are braindead passive since you dont really control them.

point is that fire air requires you to crit

while battle is simply applied to all attacks from condi to power no crit required and condi skills are often easier to land. and is constant

not luck based.

ArrDee.2573:

I think a lot of these issues can be solved by simply moving Power Wrench to grandmaster tier! It would reduce the damage of Prybar, which hits for like 3-5k with might stacks on a cele build lol, and it would make it so you can’t trait for 20 second Magnets and 16 second Gear Shields unless you give up Alchemy sustain, which you won’t and shouldn’t! After all, Tool Kit is one of the most powerful kits the Engineer has and is definitely deserving of grandmaster status! We can then swap Gadgeteer to the master tier which would buff gadgets! But not really since Gadgeteer is absolutely balls! We all know gadgets need more buffs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Moving it to grandmaster?! So toolkit would require 6 points to become good. Engis already need 6 points to make grenades become good. We can’t make every single engi skill require 6 trait points to become decent.

xDudisx.5914:

ArrDee.2573:

I think a lot of these issues can be solved by simply moving Power Wrench to grandmaster tier! It would reduce the damage of Prybar, which hits for like 3-5k with might stacks on a cele build lol, and it would make it so you can’t trait for 20 second Magnets and 16 second Gear Shields unless you give up Alchemy sustain, which you won’t and shouldn’t! After all, Tool Kit is one of the most powerful kits the Engineer has and is definitely deserving of grandmaster status! We can then swap Gadgeteer to the master tier which would buff gadgets! But not really since Gadgeteer is absolutely balls! We all know gadgets need more buffs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Moving it to grandmaster?! So toolkit would require 6 points to become good. Engis already need 6 points to make grenades become good. We can’t make every single engi skill require 6 trait points to become decent.

Yah, because untraited TK isn’t “good” or “decent”. C’mon, be realistic.

alanis.6094:

xDudisx.5914:

ArrDee.2573:

I think a lot of these issues can be solved by simply moving Power Wrench to grandmaster tier! It would reduce the damage of Prybar, which hits for like 3-5k with might stacks on a cele build lol, and it would make it so you can’t trait for 20 second Magnets and 16 second Gear Shields unless you give up Alchemy sustain, which you won’t and shouldn’t! After all, Tool Kit is one of the most powerful kits the Engineer has and is definitely deserving of grandmaster status! We can then swap Gadgeteer to the master tier which would buff gadgets! But not really since Gadgeteer is absolutely balls! We all know gadgets need more buffs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Moving it to grandmaster?! So toolkit would require 6 points to become good. Engis already need 6 points to make grenades become good. We can’t make every single engi skill require 6 trait points to become decent.

Yah, because untraited TK isn’t “good” or “decent”. C’mon, be realistic.

Yah, becuase a mere -20% cooldown in 1 kit skill should be grandmaster. C’mon, be relaistic.

Simon.3794:

point is that fire air requires you to crit

while battle is simply applied to all attacks from condi to power no crit required and condi skills are often easier to land. and is constant

not luck based.

Believe what you want, but there’s not much point trying to differentiate between Battle and Air/Fire. They’re both passive. Most sigils are totally un-counterable guys, say it with.

Spatial Surge and Ranger Longbow1&2, probably the easiest abilities in the game to tag someone with, huge champions of the Air/Fire sigil.

Critting is necessary to proc it, but the same can be said about weapon swapping. They’re both things that everybody does a million times in every fight.

Edit: Doom, Leeching, (Intel?), these sigil’s effets can be dodged though! Air/Fire/Battle not so much, their effects itself can’t be mitigated by avoidance. That’s the true difference.

However, battle is counterable by boon rip, which is at least something. People make arguments about Fire/Air because the only avoidance other than unrealistic things (like dodging literally every attack forever,) is the Ele Trait, Stone Heart.

xDudisx.5914:

Yah, becuase a mere -20% cooldown in 1 kit skill should be grandmaster. C’mon, be relaistic.

There is also a 10% damage bonus, and the tool kit is more effective on turrets.
Even then, as it is now, it is perfectly in line with every other single weapon enhancing master trait. And as you said, not worth of a grandmaster slot.
Unless they make the trait stronger..and then they end up balancing the whole kit over the traited version and making the base one useless. Like they did with grenadier before.

Anyway, i don’t even think that the kit should deserve a nerf. The gear shield is basically the only strong point when compared to any other weapon.
If we were to compare skills like Pry Bar or Magnet to other similar weapon skill equivalents, they aren’t even on par – mostly because their counterparts usually target multiple enemies and/or have lower cooldowns, while retaining similar effects.

Imho, if the kit is perceived as strong, it is just due to the game mode rather than for the weapon itself. If they still think of it as strong in this particular game mode, then any nerf should be restricted to said game mode.

Yasha.5963:

What happened with engis anyway? I remember early on playing against engi builds that had high mobility and regen but low damage, some with high burst damage but were fairly squishy, and ones with a fair amount of cc but not too much damage.

These days they have builds with great mobility high damage, high damage mitigation/regen, and lots of hard cc, or are tough as nails with turrets that seem extremely strong, or seem to be able to constantly evade, go into stealth quicker than a d/p thief, fart aoe cc.

When and how did they go from somewhat balanced to monsters?

The other professions people complained about got nerfed. Those people are still losing, so now they need to blame engineers. I predict guardians will be their next target.

Manuhell.2759:

If we were to compare skills like Pry Bar or Magnet to other similar weapon skill equivalents, they aren’t even on par – mostly because their counterparts usually target multiple enemies and/or have lower cooldowns, while retaining similar effects.

yeah, magnet isnt on par… because its way better than anything else comparable. unblockable, cancellable, strong cd.

If you want to compare Tool kit’s cool-downs individually they are very low for the 4 and 5 skills when comparing them to abilities of similar effects.

If you look at engi meta builds as a whole between their weapon skills and 2 kits the longest recharges are if you run Shield, which are 30 and 40 second recharges. If you don’t run Shield though the longest recharging skills are 25 seconds and that’s the 5 skill on both kits.

So engi has 3 weapons effectively with no weapon swap downtime and all skills having under 25 second recharges each with more than useful effects. This is the biggest advantage engineer has over every other profession, and a big reason why it’s stronger than a lot of professions in a lot of situations, since you can always use whatever tool you want as long as it hasn’t already been used and even if it has been used you have backup tools of similar effects and effectiveness, which allows to almost literally constantly use cool down skills and never stop. Ele has a similar phenomenon with its cool down usage, but that’s neither here nore there.

But above is an overarching theme of engineer, the main topic revolves around Gear Shield, which is tied to Tool Kit.

The truth is, Gear Shield is over the top. Gear Shield alone is better than MOST defensive utility skills in the game, and then comes attached to a kit that has a bunch of other pretty good skills on it, including the magnet CC, prybar dps, and throw wrench dps (most people underestimate this damage).

As it is, the CD is just way too short that engies aren’t really very punished for popping it at the first sign of pressure. It will be back off CD in a few seconds. Plus, it’s a long enough block to allow complete repositioning through a casual stroll to a new position.

There are a lot of traits/skills on engie that aren’t really in-line with other professions atm, and the class will remain as A++ or S tier until some of them are toned down a bit (IP, healing turret, shield block, slick shoes).

insanemaniac.2456:

yeah, magnet isnt on par… because its way better than anything else comparable. unblockable, cancellable, strong cd.

Yeah, that’s basically all it does, to a single target, with a 25s cooldown.
Comparatively, we have:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Blade
(damages multiple opponents+combo whirl+optional 5-target unblockable pull) 30s cd
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Path_of_Scars
(damages up to three opponent, projectile combo finisher, pulls up to 3 opponent on return) 15s cd
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temporal_Curtain
(combo field, swiftness to allies/cripple to enemies, optional up-to-5-opponents pull) 25s cd

They all do something else beside pulling and they do it at multiple targets. Even with lower cast times, for some of them.

The only thing Magnet has got over some of them is it being unblockable and having an higher range. I wouldn’t say those alone make it “way better” than the comparable skills.
There may be situations where it works better than the alternatives? Of course, if you’re against a single opponent and you just want to pull them, it is the perfect tool to do that.
Is the skill stronger than the other similar weapon skills? Not, at all.

Manuhell.2759:

insanemaniac.2456:

yeah, magnet isnt on par… because its way better than anything else comparable. unblockable, cancellable, strong cd.

Yeah, that’s basically all it does, to a single target, with a 25s cooldown.
Comparatively, we have:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Blade
(damages multiple opponents+combo whirl+optional 5-target unblockable pull) 30s cd
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Path_of_Scars
(damages up to three opponent, projectile combo finisher, pulls up to 3 opponent on return) 15s cd
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Temporal_Curtain
(combo field, swiftness to allies/cripple to enemies, optional up-to-5-opponents pull) 25s cd

They all do something else beside pulling and they do it at multiple targets. Even with lower cast times, for some of them.

The only thing Magnet has got over some of them is it being unblockable and having an higher range. I wouldn’t say those alone make it “way better” than the comparable skills.
There may be situations where it works better than the alternatives? Of course, if you’re against a single opponent and you just want to pull them, it is the perfect tool to do that.
Is the skill stronger than the other similar weapon skills? Not, at all.

you underestimate the value of cancellable

Agreed by cancelling you force a dodge. I would also say he is undervaluing unblockable.

Novuake.2691:

Sagat.3285:

insanemaniac.2456:

xDudisx.5914:

insanemaniac.2456:

Sagat.3285:

Engi CC,condition and boon duration are too long. Confusion,vulnerability,swiftness,retaliation,regen need duration shave and the CC need new animation.

im confused about the boon duration part. are you referring to turret engis? the only boon celengi builds abuse is battle sigil’s might.

People are trying to get all the positive effects from all builds and say it is on celestial rifle hahahaha. Maybe they should also say that engis have pets, clones, virtues, banners, can 1shot from 5k range, perma stealth,etc..

Just a apathetic attempt to get rage against the engi class.

i saw that from his response

just a teef who gets rekt so fast he has no time to think about what the engi is doing. its how it should be i guess, since engi has good matches against teef in general. i bet he thinks mesmers are underpowered too.

Not all I play every class from more thief to ele less for safety purposes, I also mentioned that I don’t care about celestial since I usually won against them and I run condi or CC spec and I am no 1v1 hero luckily . Don’t make me teach you how to read please. Celestial has nothing to do with it it’s engi nature that is the issue.

I played celestial,rabid,SD,FT burst and even turreteer in pvp, I run perplexity in wvw and FT zerk in pve I am familiar with the class. Also lol I love fighting mesmer,war and ranger.

But hate the necros? Don’t you?
Good thing they are VERY few and far between in Roaming WvW these days.

Stop guessing lol I am waiting for self traited healing to work in DS and balance it ,stay on topic lol.

I just don’t see it (being cancellable) as an intrinsic advantage of Magnet. I mean…all the skills i mentioned above are cancellable as well, at least in their first “stage”. As i were comparing them, if they’re equal in that aspect, there is just no need to mention it.

Manuhell.2759:

I just don’t see it (being cancellable) as an intrinsic advantage of Magnet. I mean…all the skills i mentioned above are cancellable as well, at least in their first “stage”. As i were comparing them, if they’re equal in that aspect, there is just no need to mention it.

Magnet cancel is definitely better than cancelling any other those other skills at any point in time. I can appreciate the effort in defending the skill though.
;)

Manuhell.2759:

I just don’t see it (being cancellable) as an intrinsic advantage of Magnet. I mean…all the skills i mentioned above are cancellable as well, at least in their first “stage”. As i were comparing them, if they’re equal in that aspect, there is just no need to mention it.

yeah uh theres almost no opportunity cost associated with cancelling, unlike everyone else who has to get stuck on another weapon in order to cancel and cant retry until 10 secs later instead of 3

edit: or if youre super technical you can heal or dodge cancel by overwriting the skill queue priority and interrupting yourself but thats a pretty bad idea

Anyone defending Fire+Air is being ridiculous its Incendiary Powder for Power classes, broken, unmissable, undodgable and bad for the game. Both the Celestial offending objects and Fire+Air should be removed together – doing just one will result in another 6 months of sigil/amulet hell.
Can we please get back to a game where landing skills not weapon swaps/auto attacks is the way to win.

Fire and Air needs to be toned down. I think most everyone agrees with this. The only people I see even partly in favor of them stacking is Thieves, and their only concern is that sword has been nerfed so heavily that it relies on the synergy between fire and air to remain functional. They’re right.

Fire and Air needs to be nerfed (may as well just remove air from the game imo), but Thieves probably need to be improved in the same patch.

Atherakhia.4086:

Fire and Air needs to be toned down. I think most everyone agrees with this. The only people I see even partly in favor of them stacking is Thieves, and their only concern is that sword has been nerfed so heavily that it relies on the synergy between fire and air to remain functional. They’re right.

Fire and Air needs to be nerfed (may as well just remove air from the game imo), but Thieves probably need to be improved in the same patch.

What makes you think they need buffed? Do you believe they should be allowed to ignore all the + damage traits in favour of defensive or utility traits while still being bursters? Do you think 20066 is the trait setup designed for damage and not just taking advantage of free damage sent from Fire+Air?
No Thieves do not need buffed but they may need to make a choice or two and get Critical Strikes again (like they used to before Fire+Air was gifted to them).

Fire and air toning down would be great as a simultaneous change to toning down other non-zerk meta builds. If they trigger optimally it’s about an extra 500 dps on low armor targets and an extra 2k damage added to a burst.

The fire and air combo is much less passive than IP in that it requires you to actively be attacking to constantly trigger. IP’s behavior allows you to hit and run while running for 2x longer, because of the difference in recharges. IP is also naturally stronger than fire air for another reason, engineer builds are all ranged. This is less punishable whereas fire/Air is more punishable on zerker builds that are melee, as being in the fray is the natural weakness to glass cannons.

Passives like fire/Air and IP are too rewarding for their risk on ranged professions. For melee I find these passive rewards are at least more justified since you are actively choosing to increase your risk by being in melee range.

Coulter.2315:

Atherakhia.4086:

Fire and Air needs to be toned down. I think most everyone agrees with this. The only people I see even partly in favor of them stacking is Thieves, and their only concern is that sword has been nerfed so heavily that it relies on the synergy between fire and air to remain functional. They’re right.

Fire and Air needs to be nerfed (may as well just remove air from the game imo), but Thieves probably need to be improved in the same patch.

What makes you think they need buffed? Do you believe they should be allowed to ignore all the + damage traits in favour of defensive or utility traits while still being bursters? Do you think 20066 is the trait setup designed for damage and not just taking advantage of free damage sent from Fire+Air?
No Thieves do not need buffed but they may need to make a choice or two and get Critical Strikes again (like they used to before Fire+Air was gifted to them).

This guy gets it but a middle ground still need to exist not just full burst,condi,tank… Maybe they will improve Deadly Arts to compete with Critical Strikes. Need more frequent balance changes they have no idea the success they’re missing.

Chaith.8256:

Simon.3794:

point is that fire air requires you to crit

while battle is simply applied to all attacks from condi to power no crit required and condi skills are often easier to land. and is constant

not luck based.

Believe what you want, but there’s not much point trying to differentiate between Battle and Air/Fire. They’re both passive. Most sigils are totally un-counterable guys, say it with.

Spatial Surge and Ranger Longbow1&2, probably the easiest abilities in the game to tag someone with, huge champions of the Air/Fire sigil.

Critting is necessary to proc it, but the same can be said about weapon swapping. They’re both things that everybody does a million times in every fight.

Edit: Doom, Leeching, (Intel?), these sigil’s effets can be dodged though! Air/Fire/Battle not so much, their effects itself can’t be mitigated by avoidance. That’s the true difference.

However, battle is counterable by boon rip, which is at least something. People make arguments about Fire/Air because the only avoidance other than unrealistic things (like dodging literally every attack forever,) is the Ele Trait, Stone Heart.

I know that it’s pretty much impossible to avoid fire air burst, and i did get headshot fire air’d on my necro and it felt BS yes.
and i also did realized that the only way to counter that is to get endure pain up on my warrior the moment you see a thief walking to you so you can mitigate the first wave of procs.

but i also think that fire air ( unavoidable damage buff) is necessairy damage boost for zerkers to stay good, i remember you mentioned that cele engi output almost the same damage as a zerker engi? ptv hammer with enough might can also crit like a zerker hammer and fire air is pretty much a perma damage buff for zerkers to be, you know, zerkers..

and much like battle, but battle is not nerfed because it is passive, it is nerfed because builds that use it are OP. reason why it is still passive just less effective.

anyway i would love to see fire air gone as long as they compensate all zerkers in a way or another

and i also find a thing funny, is that, the forum was discussing about nerfing ele and engi, but you guys were like noo ele and engis are not op, only might stack, ok now might stackings are less effective, you guys start to panic again?

Simon.3794:

Chaith.8256:

Simon.3794:

point is that fire air requires you to crit

while battle is simply applied to all attacks from condi to power no crit required and condi skills are often easier to land. and is constant

not luck based.

Believe what you want, but there’s not much point trying to differentiate between Battle and Air/Fire. They’re both passive. Most sigils are totally un-counterable guys, say it with.

Spatial Surge and Ranger Longbow1&2, probably the easiest abilities in the game to tag someone with, huge champions of the Air/Fire sigil.

Critting is necessary to proc it, but the same can be said about weapon swapping. They’re both things that everybody does a million times in every fight.

Edit: Doom, Leeching, (Intel?), these sigil’s effets can be dodged though! Air/Fire/Battle not so much, their effects itself can’t be mitigated by avoidance. That’s the true difference.

However, battle is counterable by boon rip, which is at least something. People make arguments about Fire/Air because the only avoidance other than unrealistic things (like dodging literally every attack forever,) is the Ele Trait, Stone Heart.

and i also find a thing funny, is that, the forum was discussing about nerfing ele and engi, but you guys were like noo ele and engis are not op, only might stack, ok now might stackings are less effective, you guys start to panic again?

We’re panicking because it’s not enough. I can easily get 25 stacks of might on my elementalist, this just delays the inevitable max stacks for 10 seconds.

The way recovery is right now for Engineer, Elementalist, Mesmer and Necromancer is in my opinion is handled wrong and is crippling viability for a lot of builds.

xDudisx.5914:

alanis.6094:

xDudisx.5914:

ArrDee.2573:

I think a lot of these issues can be solved by simply moving Power Wrench to grandmaster tier! It would reduce the damage of Prybar, which hits for like 3-5k with might stacks on a cele build lol, and it would make it so you can’t trait for 20 second Magnets and 16 second Gear Shields unless you give up Alchemy sustain, which you won’t and shouldn’t! After all, Tool Kit is one of the most powerful kits the Engineer has and is definitely deserving of grandmaster status! We can then swap Gadgeteer to the master tier which would buff gadgets! But not really since Gadgeteer is absolutely balls! We all know gadgets need more buffs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Moving it to grandmaster?! So toolkit would require 6 points to become good. Engis already need 6 points to make grenades become good. We can’t make every single engi skill require 6 trait points to become decent.

Yah, because untraited TK isn’t “good” or “decent”. C’mon, be realistic.

Yah, becuase a mere -20% cooldown in 1 kit skill should be grandmaster. C’mon, be relaist.

Untraited Tool Kit is already good! Traited Tool Kit is a beast! That’s why it should be moved to grandmaster! That’s why every single goshdarn Engineer runs Power Wrench! That’s realistic!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

ArrDee.2573:

xDudisx.5914:

alanis.6094:

xDudisx.5914:

ArrDee.2573:

I think a lot of these issues can be solved by simply moving Power Wrench to grandmaster tier! It would reduce the damage of Prybar, which hits for like 3-5k with might stacks on a cele build lol, and it would make it so you can’t trait for 20 second Magnets and 16 second Gear Shields unless you give up Alchemy sustain, which you won’t and shouldn’t! After all, Tool Kit is one of the most powerful kits the Engineer has and is definitely deserving of grandmaster status! We can then swap Gadgeteer to the master tier which would buff gadgets! But not really since Gadgeteer is absolutely balls! We all know gadgets need more buffs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Moving it to grandmaster?! So toolkit would require 6 points to become good. Engis already need 6 points to make grenades become good. We can’t make every single engi skill require 6 trait points to become decent.

Yah, because untraited TK isn’t “good” or “decent”. C’mon, be realistic.

Yah, becuase a mere -20% cooldown in 1 kit skill should be grandmaster. C’mon, be relaist.

Untraited Tool Kit is already good! Traited Tool Kit is a beast! That’s why it should be moved to grandmaster! That’s why every single goshdarn Engineer runs Power Wrench! That’s realistic!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

gosh i must be missing something, ive been using leg mods for some reason. id better go full meta instead.

ArrDee.2573:

xDudisx.5914:

alanis.6094:

xDudisx.5914:

ArrDee.2573:

I think a lot of these issues can be solved by simply moving Power Wrench to grandmaster tier! It would reduce the damage of Prybar, which hits for like 3-5k with might stacks on a cele build lol, and it would make it so you can’t trait for 20 second Magnets and 16 second Gear Shields unless you give up Alchemy sustain, which you won’t and shouldn’t! After all, Tool Kit is one of the most powerful kits the Engineer has and is definitely deserving of grandmaster status! We can then swap Gadgeteer to the master tier which would buff gadgets! But not really since Gadgeteer is absolutely balls! We all know gadgets need more buffs!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Moving it to grandmaster?! So toolkit would require 6 points to become good. Engis already need 6 points to make grenades become good. We can’t make every single engi skill require 6 trait points to become decent.

Yah, because untraited TK isn’t “good” or “decent”. C’mon, be realistic.

Yah, becuase a mere -20% cooldown in 1 kit skill should be grandmaster. C’mon, be relaist.

Untraited Tool Kit is already good! Traited Tool Kit is a beast! That’s why it should be moved to grandmaster! That’s why every single goshdarn Engineer runs Power Wrench! That’s realistic!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Your advice is really similar to mine, mine was either nerf damage for it to stay a defensive or increase CD defensive skills

i guess your advice stances better because it can also bring viability for other builds. nice thought imo.

insanemaniac.2456:

Manuhell.2759:

I just don’t see it (being cancellable) as an intrinsic advantage of Magnet. I mean…all the skills i mentioned above are cancellable as well, at least in their first “stage”. As i were comparing them, if they’re equal in that aspect, there is just no need to mention it.

yeah uh theres almost no opportunity cost associated with cancelling, unlike everyone else who has to get stuck on another weapon in order to cancel and cant retry until 10 secs later instead of 3

edit: or if youre super technical you can heal or dodge cancel by overwriting the skill queue priority and interrupting yourself but thats a pretty bad idea

I was thinking about the dodge cancel, but indeed you’re right – stowing a kit does cancel as well. Maybe that’s something that should be fixed, indeed.

Shockwave.1230:

Magnet cancel is definitely better than cancelling any other those other skills at any point in time. I can appreciate the effort in defending the skill though.
;)

As above. If cancel by stowing gives such an advantage, then they should fix that, not the skill. Especially if said skill isn’t inherently very strong, as the comparisons show.
Sure, in pvp it may even end up being more useful than the alternatives, i can agree with that, seeing as 1vs1 are more common than in other modes. But that’s just due of how pvp works, not the strength of the skill.
Thus, as i said above:

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, if the kit is perceived as strong, it is just due to the game mode rather than for the weapon itself. If they still think of it as strong in this particular game mode, then any nerf should be restricted to said game mode.

And i’ve got to repeat and repeat that, especially when i see people proposing to put Power Wrench as a grandmaster trait – a change that i doubt would just be restricted to pvp.
Beside making no sense – it is on par with any other single weapon master trait, and giving it the grenadier treatment would just make balancing the kit even worse.