Guild Wars 2

I get what you are saying. Explains why my matches have been like yo-yo. So primetime means closer matches and anyone can progress if they put the effort in. It makes sense.

I’ve been playing unranked, after giving up on leagues (t5 saph). And I can say half the S2 Legendary players I encounter are terrible. I’m just sitting here thinking how HOW are you so bad? But this thread reminds me they had a free ride.

rwolf.9571:

I’ve been playing unranked, after giving up on leagues (t5 saph). And I can say half the S2 Legendary players I encounter are terrible. I’m just sitting here thinking how HOW are you so bad? But this thread reminds me they had a free ride.

No they didn’t.

Unranked is where people go to test builds and generally muck around. Judging people’s skills in unranked is laughable at best.

Chaith.8256:

Eurantien.4632:

I would actually argue that full glass ranger like the one I was playing might be one of the best carry options. You can single handedly slay a team fight, you can save teammates with search and rescue. Sure, druid is really strong, but if your teammates aren’t killing people you probably won’t be.

I felt the same way you did about your Power Ranger when I solo’d my Viper P/P Grenade Engi up in S1. It would just crap on anyone unfortunate enough to eat Grenades while reviving/stomping.

Lost builds like Condi Engi and Power Ranger definitely are fun to see at work in the hands of someone who feels comfortable using a mere mortal build aka, surviving without a ton of sustain or unavoidable damage.

Sigh, now I have pre-HoT build nostalgia.

I think this is actually one of the reasons I’ve been progressing so well this season doing solo Qs as thief. It’s a build that may not be optimal for PvP leagues, but it can jump in any fight where an enemy is relatively low HP, burst them and land a stomp before the enemy can rez. Impact Strike is amazing once you get the timing down, especially with all the necros that are around. When the other 4 people on my team are often tanky builds, playing the glassy, burst build can give my team the edge.

I love that we have MetaBattle and I think it does a lot of good, but it’s one shortcoming is that it’s often very focused on pro league premade team PvP builds, which a lot of solo Q players tap into and the result is missed opportunities from builds like viper engi, glass ranger, etc.

After reading this whole thread for a long time, I have come up with my own opinions about this current season.

I’ve been out of the game for maybe 3 months now, and I recently picked it back up again. I initially played druid in the beginning, but after slaying noobs for the first few games I decided the game was rolling too slow for me so I swapped to thief. Unknowingly, I still had the old Shadow arts thief build on it, but decided to play anyway, since I had no choice. Needless to say, I breezed through the first three divisions.

As it stands now, I’m currently 43-3 (roughly) I only remember losing 3 games. 2 games were close, the other one was uncarryable unfortunately. A good example of carrying teammates through those divisions was having two power druid in foefire free casting vs my clueless teammates. We went on the hole for 200 pts behind the other team, I think it was like 230 -50 at one point. Until one of the teammates on team chat was like: "Those rangers are killing us waaaaa waaa :’( " So I decided to trash the two rangers on the other team by backstabbing them endlessly on the top of the ledge, while repeatedly decapping their backpoint, and there was nothing they could do to stop me. We won that game… like 600 something to 300. It was a total disaster by an opposing team. There were probably other games that were like that, you just gotta carry a bit more/less depending on your teammates.

Moral of the story is: There is always something you can do to dig yourself out of the hole (MMR or Game Hole). Relax, these games are not completely unwinnable. What I find a lot when I queued in lower divisions were people giving up before they even start the match. Sad but true, so they went into fights thinking they were gonna lose, instead of thinking of how to win. Probably the same people who think the system is to blame were those guys.

What do I know… I did just start playing again since the beginning of the last season. Just my two cents.

You lost 3 games and think you climbed out of MMR hell.

Dahkeus.8243:

Chaith.8256:

Eurantien.4632:

I would actually argue that full glass ranger like the one I was playing might be one of the best carry options. You can single handedly slay a team fight, you can save teammates with search and rescue. Sure, druid is really strong, but if your teammates aren’t killing people you probably won’t be.

I felt the same way you did about your Power Ranger when I solo’d my Viper P/P Grenade Engi up in S1. It would just crap on anyone unfortunate enough to eat Grenades while reviving/stomping.

Lost builds like Condi Engi and Power Ranger definitely are fun to see at work in the hands of someone who feels comfortable using a mere mortal build aka, surviving without a ton of sustain or unavoidable damage.

Sigh, now I have pre-HoT build nostalgia.

I think this is actually one of the reasons I’ve been progressing so well this season doing solo Qs as thief. It’s a build that may not be optimal for PvP leagues, but it can jump in any fight where an enemy is relatively low HP, burst them and land a stomp before the enemy can rez. Impact Strike is amazing once you get the timing down, especially with all the necros that are around. When the other 4 people on my team are often tanky builds, playing the glassy, burst build can give my team the edge.

I love that we have MetaBattle and I think it does a lot of good, but it’s one shortcoming is that it’s often very focused on pro league premade team PvP builds, which a lot of solo Q players tap into and the result is missed opportunities from builds like viper engi, glass ranger, etc.

If you are good at positioning yourself, have fast reactions to avoid getting jumped… then in this current meta, the more dps, the easier the carry and the easier the wins in soloqueue.

BUT… the majority can not, for the love of god, position themselves… not to mention even dodge the right skills. For those players, mercenary amulet, paladin amulet… you know, the current “meta” builds on metabattle… are the only thing that keeps them from getting slaughtered 100% of the time… I found the metabattle builds to be rather quite forgiving to player-errors.

Which in turn gives players a sense of “being good” without actually being good. Until they reach a level when just running on point, dropping all dps and hoping everything dies before they die… just doesnt work anymore.

Long story short… I think what a lot of players think is “mmr hell”… is in reality a mix of the current, rather unforgiving, meta… and the inability to drop divisions back to their “comfort zone”.
Mind you, not saying mmr hell doesnt exist… but I think a lot of players reach that threshold where mercenary/paladin stops smoothing out rather big mistakes… they stop winning and start loosing… and instead of contributing it rightly so to their own mistakes, they blame the system for giving them bad teammates… and pitting those against good teams.

Be honest! How many of you that think they are stuck in mmr hell manage to not die more than twice in each match?

Chaith.8256:

jessiestiles.9437:

There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.

O oo I know!!! Passives! Or giving some profession the means (and multiple abilities) to defend against multiple profession type’s while some don’t have any!!
It’s gotta be one of the two, sadly i’m a newb and can’t identify though

He’s full of it. Of course you can drastically increase or decrease your TEAMS chances of winning and based on this observation can delude yourself into believing that you are the sole person responsible for any win. Until you are teamed up with solo q novices against an organised premade and your ability to “carry” drops to zero.

This thread is a joke.

First eurantien acknowledged the existence of “mysterious” MMR hell.

Second, Noone is complaining about not getting to legendary ( hey we have more legendary this season than the last one). The issue, at hand, is the MMR algorithm. Here is a tip:

1- leave your personal f3elings/ biases aside and look at the algorithm

2- then ask yourself is this competitve??

BTW what’s more doleful then having pro player ( top 5%) mocks the underlings; with stuff like you are solely response for the outcome of your game ( implying everyone runs GODLY scrapper or Rez bot ranger).

This is a new a low for the community; first Evan now chaith blatantly spewing nonsense. A sight to be revered indeed

Yasi.9065:

Be honest! How many of you that think they are stuck in mmr hell manage to not die more than twice in each match?

Me.

Fivedawgs.4267:

BTW what’s more doleful then having pro player ( top 5%) mocks the underlings; with stuff like you are solely response for the outcome of your game ( implying everyone runs GODLY scrapper or Rez bot ranger).

This is a new a low for the community; first Evan now chaith blatantly spewing nonsense. A sight to be revered indeed

Yeah, go kitten yourself if you think that’s what I’m saying

Edit: But just for you, you can get good, you scrub. L2P

What do you mean? You and everybody is on this forum is carrying their entire team. Team mates would running in circles like bugged out NPCs without your presence. The carry bs came from Helseth the humblest player of all time. His egotism spread like a virus and you guys are all “carriers” of this virus.

Triggered lmao 15charr

Fivedawgs.4267:

Triggered lmao 15charr

More like you guys are triggered by your inability to climb

Parrot mentality. Be original… From another post I made:

Matchmaking from the perspective of a season 2 legendary player:

“Look, I know matchmaking isn’t perfect. I had two loses on my way to legendary. TWO!! It could be better but it is better than last season. Last season was a struggle and had nothing to do with skill. The reason I couldn’t win last season was because of my teammates. I don’t understand why people are complaining. All my teammates this season are awesome. It’s so easy and nothing to do with matchmaking. Git gud punk.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/What-people-call-bad-matchmaking/first#post6053652

jessiestiles.9437:

Parrot mentality. Be original… From another post I made:

Matchmaking from the perspective of a season 2 legendary player:

“Look, I know matchmaking isn’t perfect. I had two loses on my way to legendary. TWO!! It could be better but it is better than last season. Last season was a struggle and had nothing to do with skill. The reason I couldn’t win last season was because of my teammates. I don’t understand why people are complaining. All my teammates this season are awesome. It’s so easy and nothing to do with matchmaking. Git gud punk.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/What-people-call-bad-matchmaking/first#post6053652

Wow someone actually said that?

No lol that was my parody on the dull wits of this forum.

I’ve been experimenting with MMR hell. It’s most definitely real.

On the way up the ladder I had blowout matches with crazy undefeated win streaks where games were ending in winning scores of 500-50, 500-100, etc. Basically, the other team had no chance. We could have even had 1 afk and still won easily. The matchmaking was TERRIBLE. In fact, there were some matches where I just sat on (“defended”) home point without seeing any other player since my team was killing it 4v5. I could not believe the unfair matches I was having — it was extremely boring and a waste of my time to even play them.

Once I hit diamond I got REALLY bored and I started doing the random daily profession pvp quest in ranked arena. I stacked up a bunch of losses while messing around with random professions that I don’t normally pvp with.

Now I get teams which are sometimes full legendary division ranks that double cap home or try to 1v3 off point, etc. These players are so hopeless that they have no chance of winning, and it is immediately apparent. Their legendary league rank is a reminder of how getting to legendary is possible even for clueless players who get carried all the way there.

Meanwhile, the opposing team is usually very coordinated and focuses targets perfectly — just like the teams I used to get before I started messing around and killed my MMR. I’ve now seen “the other side” of those blowout matches, and it isn’t pretty. It’s very difficult to carry a team of people on 10+ game loss streaks to a victory against teams that have had 20-30 wins in a row.

The worst part of it all is that there are numerous players getting carried to legendary by getting on the win-streak team through simple luck. The win-streak team would beat the loss-streak team even in a 4v5 (i.e., that clueless player does not have to contribute to get carried). These are the people who are under the erroneous impression that they’re good at pvp because they got carried to legendary. It’s really sad.

The moral of the story? This season is a huge mess. There’s no point in getting upset about the poor matches or feeling yourself because you got a blowout win in an unfair match. It’s way more fun to just mess around in PvP until ANET fixes their broken system. There is nothing competitive about the matchmaking this season.

“Look, I know matchmaking isn’t perfect. I had two loses on my way to legendary. TWO!! It could be better but it is better than last season. Last season was a struggle and had nothing to do with skill. The reason I couldn’t win last season was because of my teammates. I don’t understand why people are complaining. All my teammates this season are awesome. It’s so easy and nothing to do with matchmaking. Git gud punk.”

The humor might be a little too subtle so to expand on it. It was brilliant because the first line and the last line of the parody is almost a quote of the mysterion’s post before me. And I wrote it a week before his post. They say “matching isn’t perfect” but this is never explained as to its meaning. It’s just a parroted cliche. So I followed with a joke that the imperfection they are refering to is actually the two loses they had on the way to legendary.

The next thing they say is this season is better than last season. And what was actually wrong with last season’s match making? The bunker meta was silly but the mm wasn’t that bad. There were way fewer blow outs but no one got to winstreak to legendary. The amber shopping, tanking and 2 pip loses on a 4/5 were an unintended consequence but seperate issue to the mm. We still have similar issues to this in season 2. So anyway here I’m pointing out while people use the l2p insult their skill didn’t help most player’s struggle in an even competition i.e. “The reason I couldn’t win last season”

The bit about complaining about teammates is regarding the lengthy debate at the start of this season. Players were stuck with newbies in amber and people were saying “it’s not your team mates it’s probably you.” So I turned it around to make teammates the excuse for the pro’s struggle last season.

“I don’t know what people are complaining about.” You know those oblivious people who post at the end of a interesting and lengthy discussion about matchmaking and obnoxiously say things like “mmr is just an excuse for bad players.” It’s intelligence on the level of a grade schooler.

“It’s so easy and nothing to do with matchmaking.” Again this is refering to those who winstreaked to legendary and instantly dismiss any of the issues raised about matchmaking. It made me laugh because by saying losing streaks are not the result of matchmaking conversely means in their minds winstreaks are also not the result of matchmaking. It’s a humorous little twist on their blissful fantasy.

MMR hell exist for a single reason: this game is not based on 1v1, the game is not balanced between classes, meaning that there’s some kind of roc paper scissor, and its not like starcraft or unreal tournament where if you are skilled you are godlike, in this game you cant win 1v5.
So to me, for those who are getting extreme win streaks there’s only on explain, they are playing whit both good teammates and bad opponents.
Just as an example, no matter how much you are good, if you are a revenant playing against 5 necro, if your teammates dont support you there’s literaly NO way you can carry them.
I can easily kill many legend rank players in duel. But i cant avoid my teammates rallybotting. I can probably survive for 2-3 minutes against 2 opponents, but i cant guarantee my teammates will be able to win 3v2 in another point.
The mmr Hell is real. You have to try it on yourself, every game i make i already know from the begin if it’s gonna be a win or a lose, by just read names, professions, and my match history. It’s like it’s the matchmaking deciding wich games i have to lose, or wich games it can gives me so much advantage that i cant lose no matter how sleepy i am.

Having to fight every match uphill because you have high mmr – starting in amber all the way to legendary, while players with average or below average mmr get easy to win matches…. thats what was wrong with season1.

Basically, good players got legendary niveau matches from the start… while bad players could grind their way easily to legendary.

@Shala
The last couple of matches I had on my mainaccount are all pretty close wins. The last match I recorded yesterday had my teammates rallybotting every 2nd body I put down… still won. If you just keep the pressure up, at one point the other team crumbles. And of course find the right mix of rezzing and stomping…
Funny, I just re-checked… but there was a rev there called “Shala Prochina” that wouldnt have been you by any chance?

Weren’t you saying that you were carrying unskilled players to legendary this season? Your games this season have been an uphill battle. The legendary div players have no incentive to advance further and quit, tank or make a new account. They also complain about the quality of players. There’s no actual benefit to this system.

Yasi.9065:

Having to fight every match uphill because you have high mmr – starting in amber all the way to legendary, while players with average or below average mmr get easy to win matches…. thats what was wrong with season1.

Basically, good players got legendary niveau matches from the start… while bad players could grind their way easily to legendary.

Now they have done the same but reverse. Random team generation within pip range would avoid all that and be fair.

It is a step in the right direction. Good players shouldnt have a more difficult time reaching legendary just because they are good, while bad players get the easy road. Thats just plain wrong.

And yes, the current system has the drawback that every good player carries several bad players to positions in ladder where they dont belong. Winstreak and mmr exaggeration make it possible.

Solution would be a mix of season1 and season2 mechanics, as pointed out already numerous times. Placement matches during pre-season would be a huge step forward. So would be removing failsafes. Removing winstreak and comeback pips, reverting to season1 pip mechanic instead since it promoted fighting until the last. Season2 matchmaking with added brackets to allow lopsided matches, yes, but not too big a difference in mmrs between teams (to keep blowouts to a minimum).

Benefit of season2 mechanics, is that players that clearly belong into legendary, can get there fast.

@Sirbeaumerdier
Random team generation is NEVER fair. Dont delude yourself into thinking that. You are thinking that by randomizing teams, at least one or two “good” players will end up on each team. Thats just not correct. Im not really in the mood to get into that in detail, but since there’s WAY more bad players currently in leagues than good players, your chances of getting 4 bad teammates are actually higher than getting 1 good player.
Also, good players would just team up and stack the cards in their favor by doing that.

Yasi.9065:

It is a step in the right direction. Good players shouldnt have a more difficult time reaching legendary just because they are good, while bad players get the easy road. Thats just plain wrong.

But the complete opposite is better? This really isn’t a step in the right direction..

I agree that good players should not have it harder, but they shouldn’t have it easier by Match Making either! They should be able to show they are good and advance by skill alone.

Anet really needs to cut the crap and reset MMR for a league. Make a fair system deciding matches on pip-range and average MMR between the teams. That way, the good players can have their impact, rise and show everyone how good they really are.

To give you an example. Season 1 would give new entrance teams to the Champions League an easy ride to the final, where they would suddenly get slaughtered by Barcelona. Season 2 is the opposite, where Barcelona gets to slaughter unknown teams up to the final and then suddenly have a real opponent. Neither system is good, both give boring matchups and easy rides to the final…

Yasi.9065:

It is a step in the right direction. Good players shouldnt have a more difficult time reaching legendary just because they are good, while bad players get the easy road. Thats just plain wrong.

And yes, the current system has the drawback that every good player carries several bad players to positions in ladder where they dont belong. Winstreak and mmr exaggeration make it possible.

Solution would be a mix of season1 and season2 mechanics, as pointed out already numerous times. Placement matches during pre-season would be a huge step forward. So would be removing failsafes. Removing winstreak and comeback pips, reverting to season1 pip mechanic instead since it promoted fighting until the last. Season2 matchmaking with added brackets to allow lopsided matches, yes, but not too big a difference in mmrs between teams (to keep blowouts to a minimum).

Benefit of season2 mechanics, is that players that clearly belong into legendary, can get there fast.

@Sirbeaumerdier
Random team generation is NEVER fair. Dont delude yourself into thinking that. You are thinking that by randomizing teams, at least one or two “good” players will end up on each team. Thats just not correct. Im not really in the mood to get into that in detail, but since there’s WAY more bad players currently in leagues than good players, your chances of getting 4 bad teammates are actually higher than getting 1 good player.
Also, good players would just team up and stack the cards in their favor by doing that.

The risk is shared equally by all. How is it unfair? As it is, the risk of having a good team or a bad team rely on MMR not luck. It is a systemic and systematic bias that make ppl compete under different conditions.

Also, you say it wasnt fair for good player to have it harder in season 1 but you are ok with lower MMR people having it automatically harder this season? That is IMO even worse since their carrying potential is even less.

I really do not see the problem of going with random generation or how it is going to be less fair than it is now. It currently really isn’t at all.

They won’t remove fail safes. Maybe in legendary or diamond. But still your current progression is win 2 pips lose a pip. That’s 200 matches to get through ruby and diamond (if you don’t backslide). Why are you bothering again? lol I know it’s a bit of a passion. Fair enough. With S1 pips you’d have to slaughter the opposition who’d be close to your mmr (or lower) to get the extra pip. Lose 2 if your team mate afks. With the multitude of bad players you are always talking about it’s likely. And these are the good players you were “rewarded” with for increasing your mmr. That’s 6 more games to recover.

Decreasing the mmr range would be murder on off primetime queues. Since it’s always the same 10 players. And it’s overly harsh on people who don’t know about your loophole or aren’t free to play during primetime. kitten ed if you do there kitten ed if you don’t. (dam is censored O_o)

Lopsided matches is just bad. If pros were to advance quicker then artificially giving them a leg up isn’t the way. With the placement matches say the pros were put into ruby then make the match making balanced and they get to play each other in an even comp. That’s what they were complaining about. They wanted to play people of their own skill level without the amber players beside them. Then they could have fun competing with each other up to legendary. Instead of advancing to legendary in a few days and quitting to stomp scrubs. It will take the scrubs a while to grind to ruby and by then the pros will have hit legendary.

This post is great. I think it should be a thread on its own.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Where-is-this-MMR-Hell/page/4#post6068581

I don’t think I encountered MMR hell either. I spent several days teetering t6-7 of Diamond until I winstreaked yesterday. But I think those losses were down to my mistakes as well as the team. As soon as I recognised the issue with my game I started winning again.

Is anyone else thinking that what people are experiencing is not down to their personal account but other younger accounts that are given the average MMR on starting PvP? These new accounts are the ones technically throwing matches due to the owner being new to PvP and inexperienced, but given a free carry pass with the avg MMR their account has.

Haven’t there been enough threads by now proving that MMR hell only exists when you queue at a weird time?

So all the people crying tell me they cannot play in the evening and carry themselves up for what reason exactly?

I am not saying this is an optimal system, Arenanet should work on it. But if you still couldn’t climb up by now then there is a 99% chance you just aren’t capable of doing it based on your lack of skill. I feel sorry for the remaining 1%. The mayority of people complaining here on forums are not in the 1% though.

MMR hell exists. Most people thinking they are in MMR hell are just legitametly bad though. Very few players are ACTUALLY sitting below their true elo and have no chance to change it. Very many players pretend to be in that position though.

Dojo.1867:

Haven’t there been enough threads by now proving that MMR hell only exists when you queue at a weird time?

I guess I missed them. It was news to me this thread.

Dojo.1867:

So all the people crying tell me they cannot play in the evening and carry themselves up for what reason exactly?

Only played 20 games in the last 3 weeks and none in the last week. I’ve been a little hesitant because the way Yasi made it sound, like it was still a major struggle in primetime. Like he/she is dragging a 200 pound crucifix while being whipped. That didn’t sound overly appealing, so I put it on the todo list until I’m in the mood for torture. Which is usually never. But you’re saying mmr hell doesn’t exist at all in primetime. Now I don’t know what to believe.

But still the current system needs addressing so if you’re done sticking your head in the window shouting your little rant. And once I give primetime a go you’ll be the first person I call. OK?

This is the thing most people don’t get. It is not about weither MMR hell exists or not. It is about how likely it is for you to be affected by MMR hell.

And at primetime it is very unlikely. Atleast there is a massive discrepancy of people crying about MMR hell here and the actual chance to be affected by it. There is actually a huge chance to also have mostly bad players in the opponent team at primetime which means you can carry your bad allies against them.

something that i don’t understand either is when people say “i just had this bad guy 5 times in a row in my matches”. why not simply wait a bit? usually in games when i lose 3 times in a row i take a break for a while.

Dojo.1867:

Haven’t there been enough threads by now proving that MMR hell only exists when you queue at a weird time?

No. Doing that increases the effect, but it still exists even during prime time.
In fact, worst matchups seem to happen during weekend primetime, when there’s even more players than usual.

Dojo.1867:

I am not saying this is an optimal system, Arenanet should work on it. But if you still couldn’t climb up by now then there is a 99% chance you just aren’t capable of doing it based on your lack of skill.

There’s actual math in the other thread – look at it. That simulation has shown a certain percentage of players getting stuck (with the system hugely distorting their MMR) “down” or “up” for the whole season. No, those aren’t players taken from top/bottom by real skill. Read it up, it’s enlightening.
And before you start to put that in doubt, look few posts down in that same topic, where Anet basically admits that yes, they are aware this is happening.

Not sure why it’s still even up for discussion.

Dojo.1867:

Haven’t there been enough threads by now proving that MMR hell only exists when you queue at a weird time?
(…)

Thats so not quite correct, mmr hell exists always . If you queue outside primetime, the chances of sliding into mmr hell are bigger however… but you can also get there by trying to do professional achievements for example, or simply not playing your A game.
Basically, what happens is, you lost matches you should have won. This lowers your mmr, which in turn puts you on worse teams, which in turn makes winning harder and you loose more matches, until you hit rock bottom. You dont have to actually go on a 100 matches loosing spree for this to happen… even l-w-l-w scenarios can drag you down, if those losses are matches you should have won.

To get your way back out of this situation, queueing outside primetime is a no-no. Why? Because to get your mmr back up, you have to win against teams with slightly higher or roughly the same mmr. Winning against lower mmr teams just keeps your mmr roughly the same level. But encountering teams with same mmr or only slightly higher mmr during low playerpool times is pretty much impossible.
Those teams you have a so much higher chance on fighting against during primetime. And thats the matches that will slowly increase your mmr back to your actual rating.

MMR hell itself is a big discrepancy between actual player skill and mmr. And while season1 and unranked matchmaking would be hugely more forgiving towards fixing that (after all, bad mmr would put you on a team with good mmr players in 50/50 matchmaking), season2 matchmaking makes you work hard for it, throwing more difficult matches at you.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

(…)
The risk is shared equally by all. How is it unfair? As it is, the risk of having a good team or a bad team rely on MMR not luck. It is a systemic and systematic bias that make ppl compete under different conditions.
(…)

The risk is higher for good players, because they are less and their chance on getting another good player on their team is a lot smaller than to get bad players.
It would result in good players duo-queueing and just destroying every team that gets put together randomly out of a pool of average to bad players.
Random might work if the distribution of skill level were evenly, but it actually really isnt.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

(…)
Also, you say it wasnt fair for good player to have it harder in season 1 but you are ok with lower MMR people having it automatically harder this season? That is IMO even worse since their carrying potential is even less.
(…)

Uhm, yes? Because players with lower mmr are usually not as good and why should they get an easy ride to legendary? Pity for being so bad?
And those players that for whatever reason have a lower mmr than their actual skill… it is possible to get back your old mmr. You just have to work for it. But then… loosing that mmr in the first place was kinda their own fault… so having to work for it might sound harsh, but even I had to accept that I deserved it.

jessiestiles.9437:

(…)
Like he/she is dragging a 200 pound crucifix while being whipped.
(…)

Haha, thats EXACTLY how it feels.
When you get three enemies downed in that first teamfight… and then stupid noob necro runs in without lifeforce and just… rallies them all up again. God, I hate rallybots with a passion.

But I did notice that it gets easier. Im currently at a point again – with only 1-3 matches played each day btw – where I get at least one good teammate that helps me carry the other three.
Less definitely was more for me over the last few weeks… Im gonna keep on taking it slow and just try to maintain my winning streak now for as long as I can.

Astralporing.1957:

Dojo.1867:

Haven’t there been enough threads by now proving that MMR hell only exists when you queue at a weird time?

No. Doing that increases the effect, but it still exists even during prime time.
In fact, worst matchups seem to happen during weekend primetime, when there’s even more players than usual.

Dojo.1867:

I am not saying this is an optimal system, Arenanet should work on it. But if you still couldn’t climb up by now then there is a 99% chance you just aren’t capable of doing it based on your lack of skill.

There’s actual math in the other thread – look at it. That simulation has shown a certain percentage of players getting stuck (with the system hugely distorting their MMR) “down” or “up” for the whole season. No, those aren’t players taken from top/bottom by real skill. Read it up, it’s enlightening.
And before you start to put that in doubt, look few posts down in that same topic, where Anet basically admits that yes, they are aware this is happening.

Not sure why it’s still even up for discussion.

I am not saying it doesn’t exist. But (and I base this on the exact thread you are quoting) I think it is irrelevant for the vast mayority of people complaining here. Yes, there is an MMR hell but still 99% of people thinking they are in MMR hell are actually not and just chose to believe that because it is easier to accept.

According to the thread you bring up only 3.5% of players are actually “stuck” which propably comes down to less than 1% if you take away people that do not queue at primetime. Still it feels like 50% of this forum believes they are in MMR hell and stuck below their true MMR due to bad allies. Nope you aren’t.

Yasi.9065:

MMR hell itself is a big discrepancy between actual player skill and mmr. And while season1 and unranked matchmaking would be hugely more forgiving towards fixing that (after all, bad mmr would put you on a team with good mmr players in 50/50 matchmaking), season2 matchmaking makes you work hard for it, throwing more difficult matches at you.

Well here. I have to quote it because of usual misunderstanding on that matter. The system which was in season 1 in it’s core is a LoL match making system. It’s not forgiving at it’s core. It failed because of poor implementation by Anet.

1. Safeguards.
2. No MMR reset / No placement matches.
3. Abuse of a system.
4. Poor meta to define skill.
5. Low pip amount for every devision.

But the system itself works. But Anet always try to satisfy everyone and combine grind system / skill system which will lead to fail in the very end.

The MMR system worked but it was a failure in combination with leagues. Don’t ever bring that abomination back in combination with the league system.

what time is prime time btw ?

and what does it mean by prime team ?

in terms of gmt.

Dojo.1867:

According to the thread you bring up only 3.5% of players are actually “stuck” which propably comes down to less than 1% if you take away people that do not queue at primetime. Still it feels like 50% of this forum believes they are in MMR hell and stuck below their true MMR due to bad allies. Nope you aren’t.

With the amount of people that post saying they played 50 games and lost 3 I guess you naturally assume there’s an equally great number of people on the flip side of that.

And the people who do winstreak to legend in a few days then start a new account to do it again. Where is the competition in that? Not that I care but it must be boring for them. I’m given to believe they hate PVErs and don’t go there. So it can’t be for the loot and probably get sick of opening bags and just delete them. I suggested balanced matchmaking but put the pros in ruby. Then they can actually have a challenge. So what is the point of this system in pro terms?

jessiestiles.9437:

Dojo.1867:

According to the thread you bring up only 3.5% of players are actually “stuck” which propably comes down to less than 1% if you take away people that do not queue at primetime. Still it feels like 50% of this forum believes they are in MMR hell and stuck below their true MMR due to bad allies. Nope you aren’t.

With the amount of people that post saying they played 50 games and lost 3 I guess you naturally assume there’s an equally great number of people on the flip side of that.

And the people who do winstreak to legend in a few days then start a new account to do it again. Where is the competition in that? Not that I care but it must be boring for them. I’m given to believe they hate PVErs and don’t go there. So it can’t be for the loot and probably get sick of opening bags and just delete them. I suggested balanced matchmaking but put the pros in ruby. Then they can actually have a challenge. So what is the point of this system in pro terms?

Actually these 50/3 stories happen during the climb exclusively. They don’t happen on late diamond or legendary anymore (unless we really talk highest level professionals). Right now there are no more top tier players steamrolling sapphire/ruby and thus keeping people on the flip side “stuck”. This is just not the case anymore.

Also do you think those 50/3s should not happen at the start of the season if people are legimately good? Why would someone that belongs into a late legend tier concerning his true MMR not roll through amber, emeral, sapphire and ruby like that? Actually it is GOOD if he leaves this area as fast as possible. Losses would just make him stick around longer and ruin match quality on this division because he does not belong there.

The start of each season is problematic, I agree. They should work on systems to reduce those lopsided phases and many suggestions have been made. Afterall winstreaks are actually an attempt to reduce this amount of matches and bring people into their proper division with fewer games.

All this does not really apply at this point anymore though. If you still get stomped then either you are in those 1% that is really, really unfortunate (true MMR hell) or you are just not that good. With that many players complaining about elo hell most of them more likely belong to the group that are really actually just not that good.

jessiestiles.9437:

And the people who do winstreak to legend in a few days then start a new account to do it again. Where is the competition in that?

You are absolutely right that this behavior is very problematic for the system and should be discouraged in the future. It is actually abusing the system but this phenomenom (smurfing) is not exclusive to gw2.

Actually it is GOOD if he leaves this area as fast as possible.

How about he never gets placed there in the first place?

Yasi.9065:

The risk is higher for good players, because they are less and their chance on getting another good player on their team is a lot smaller than to get bad players.
It would result in good players duo-queueing and just destroying every team that gets put together randomly out of a pool of average to bad players.
Random might work if the distribution of skill level were evenly, but it actually really isnt.

I’m sorry but that make no sense. If you are the best no player is your equal but you aren’t disadvantaged to get less talented teammates anymore than any others nor do you have less probability than any other to get that same other teammate. That argument is just pure nonsense. The way you speak it is terrible to get the second best player in your team when you are the best but a blessing when you are a kitten . It is the same player and you both have the same odds.

As for the good players teaming together to demolish all, they can already do that now cant they? I’m addressing soloq problem here. As it is, strong MMR players think it is an achievement to make it to the top as a soloqer when it might actually be easier for them than if they where on a premade this season.

…

Uhm, yes? Because players with lower mmr are usually not as good and why should they get an easy ride to legendary? Pity for being so bad?
And those players that for whatever reason have a lower mmr than their actual skill… it is possible to get back your old mmr. You just have to work for it. But then… loosing that mmr in the first place was kinda their own fault… so having to work for it might sound harsh, but even I had to accept that I deserved it.

Whoa,whoa,whoa. The point is, why oh why should anybody get an easy ride? Or rather, an easier or harder ride? If your ride is easier because your are better that is fair but if your ride is easier or harder because of systemic bias that is quite another matter. You can’t seriously pull a Donald Trump or a Paris Hilton on me by telling me to work hard to earn what you have like you did when your daddy left you millions to pull ahead. That is disingenuous.

Let’s all start in the same conditions and let our skill decide who goes in front is all I’m asking but for some reasons that idea seem outrageous.

Agemnon.4608:

Actually it is GOOD if he leaves this area as fast as possible.

How about he never gets placed there in the first place?

I agree (also wrote this in my post). I actually made threads myself with suggestions like:

• a preseason
• starting at higher division depending on last season

Dojo.1867:

The MMR system worked but it was a failure in combination with leagues. Don’t ever bring that abomination back in combination with the league system.

Do you mean s1 system ? Yes, in combination with leagues and the way it was implemented was a disaster.

Yet, i don’t find s2 system better in a lot of ways, it still creates huge loose streaks for people in lower devisions which is not “fun” for them. I mean system which we have now doesn’t protect newbs. And that is what you actually don’t want to happen in any competitive structure.

Dojo.1867:

Also do you think those 50/3s should not happen at the start of the season if people are legimately good? Why would someone that belongs into a late legend tier concerning his true MMR not roll through amber, emeral, sapphire and ruby like that? Actually it is GOOD if he leaves this area as fast as possible. Losses would just make him stick around longer and ruin match quality on this division because he does not belong there.

You don’t want to know what I think. However, there has been a suggestion since the start of the season to prevent people getting kittened in the first week of the season playing pros, that there are preseason qualifiers to move people up divisions. That’s what I was refering to. Which was a known symptom of this system when it was first announced by anet.

Also the pros were saying how much they deeply desire to play with one another, so following the same concept above if they were elevated to ruby then it would almost be like being in legendary from the start of the season. With balanced teams they would have a challenge to occupy themselves for the next weeks instead of getting to legendary in a few days having little incentive to play on.

You just like stomping people though? And maybe not the best person to direct this question at. Someone else?

Hahahah…

When you get a new BOX (play HOT), you have more chance to go to Legendary than if you have a main BOX with thousands of matches…

Buy to WIN!!!

More seriously… the MMR just for your TEAM is so bad.

Please get rid of MMR entirely if you don’t want to pair MMR vs MMR team.

So we can have pro players QQ on forums about playing with bad players instead of saying the game is completely right (to farms 80% of the players bases because they are on the top 20% MMR).

Jourdelune.7456:

Hahahah…

When you get a new BOX (play HOT), you have more chance to go to Legendary than if you have a main BOX with thousands of matches…

Buy to WIN!!!

More seriously… the MMR just for your TEAM is so bad.

Please get rid of MMR entirely if you don’t want to pair MMR vs MMR team.

So we can have pro players QQ on forums about playing with bad players instead of saying the game is completely right (to farms 80% of the players bases because they are on the top 20% MMR).

So grind based ladder !? Why not just pure MMR based ladder ? Cmon.

Arcade.8901:

Jourdelune.7456:

Hahahah…

When you get a new BOX (play HOT), you have more chance to go to Legendary than if you have a main BOX with thousands of matches…

Buy to WIN!!!

More seriously… the MMR just for your TEAM is so bad.

Please get rid of MMR entirely if you don’t want to pair MMR vs MMR team.

So we can have pro players QQ on forums about playing with bad players instead of saying the game is completely right (to farms 80% of the players bases because they are on the top 20% MMR).

So grind based ladder !? Why not just pure MMR based ladder ? Cmon.

I am advocating to remove MMR completely into a GRIND based Ranking system.

Skill based ranking system will always be better than Grind based one.