Guild Wars 2

Israel.7056:

I think it’s a gross overgeneralization to assert that everyone who hits a sticking point is getting exactly what they deserve full stop. You simply do not have the data to support that broad of a statement. You would have to be watching all these people’s games to see if any of their complaints are legitimate.

You’re not a good test subject because you’re not really in a position to hit a sticking point in any division below legendary and probably not even in legendary. You’re not just a pro league player but arguably one of the better pro league players and to my knowledge the best and most experienced ranger player in the game. Your proper placement might actually be so high that you won’t even get there because there may not even be enough players playing regularly at the levels below it to get you regular matches.

To just flatly dismiss everyone’s complaints as being a l2p issue without having any data whatsoever to back it up other than because “it didn’t happen to me” is so obviously foolish that I can’t help but wonder if you’re really even serious.

Someone made a really good point earlier that MMR Hell was essentially players who were better (even if just slightly) than where they are stuck. As a consequence they aren’t yet good enough to really make up for the lack of their teammates skills. I think Chaith put it well as basically a solo queue mentality, over time you just know where to go, where the other team will go, which teammates you need to baby sit in order to succeed which ends up being a lot more impactful than a player who just goes far and wins a 1 v 1 over and over. So these players who are stuck are in a sense, are somewhat where they deserve to be, yet it appears that these players believe that they deserve to be stuck somewhere where their teammates aren’t making the terrible mistakes every game (like 1 guy who comes to your point for no reason) but in fact they are the ones making mistakes. I think there is a lot of validity to that claim because, as these players have stated, this is where their hard work can be seen to pay off. Instead of having to carry their team they instead are able to just focus on improving themselves. Unfortunately, with the current system it appears to be forcing players to simultaneously improve their personal play and their solo queue awareness/team play, understandably a frustrating thing for them to do.

I was genuinely curious when I started on this alt account to see if I would get stuck in MMR Hell. There are so many threads about it that it seems it is an inevitable outcome of queuing through tiers. Yet I never experienced it. Through the discussion on this thread it seems that yes, I am not one who would likely fall into MMR Hell and I have gained a better understanding of what is really going on and it is that mentioned in my previous paragraph. Players are not good enough to carry their way out of MMR Hell and they also feel that they should be somewhere where they are the ones who need the most improving and not their teammates. In an ideal world I would hope that sometimes players at their appropriate places should feel both ways. Sometimes they should have to carry a little but I think that also comes with solo queue awareness things like a body is down and your teammates is stomping and you realize they are stomping too so you need to swap targets interrupt the stomp so you guys can get your stomp first, or stealthing your teammate. Quick little plays that you can do that can end up making a big difference. A won fight often creates a snowball effect. Other times they should be the ones who need to improve in order to really carry forward, but hopefully they are only making small mistakes, like a player deciding to stomp a body instead of cleaving it out, because of this decision the other team got the stomp first and won the fight.

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

The thing is we only play from our point of view so we’re only seeing our own contributions so we’d naturally have an inflated sense of contribution. We know we did our part to win but we aren’t seeing the thief and necro winning far when we’re defending home in a 1v1. We are too engrossed in the fight to see and see, “The waterfall is yours!” and know they’re doing a good job anyway but we don’t see so we think we’re contributing more somehow.

Oh, one more image for giggles. This match was made in hell. Notice a problem?

I mean, if you are on a 30 game loose streak, you have to understand how the following match up would give anyone a rotten attitude? No?

Anyhow, if you are on a loose streak, find 2-3 people to queue with. Problem solved. Take it out of the hands of the matchmaker.

Your team did amazing considering you had an emerald.

Archon.6480:

Oh, one more image for giggles. This match was made in hell. Notice a problem?

I mean, if you are on a 30 game loose streak, you have to understand how the following match up would give anyone a rotten attitude? No?

Anyhow, if you are on a loose streak, find 2-3 people to queue with. Problem solved. Take it out of the hands of the matchmaker.

I’d argue it was a close game, and that your build wasn’t optimal to carry your team. Though the 2 queue on your side being ruby and emerald vs their 3 queue of diamonds would be upsetting.

Ruru.1302:

SkyShroud.2865:

does anyone noticed that OP has a rather low rank and also low match participation history?

OP is an also an ESL player.

don’t quote things out of context.

Agemnon.4608:

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

The thing is we only play from our point of view so we’re only seeing our own contributions so we’d naturally have an inflated sense of contribution. We know we did our part to win but we aren’t seeing the thief and necro winning far when we’re defending home in a 1v1. We are too engrossed in the fight to see and see, “The waterfall is yours!” and know they’re doing a good job anyway but we don’t see so we think we’re contributing more somehow.

Exactly. Sometimes when my teams been slaughtered at mid, I know right off we will lose if I don’t do something drastic. So I’ll go and engage 3 of the enemy team and lead them off point long enough for us to get a 2 cap. If my team mates didnt capture the other points we’d still lose. That has happened too. I’ve been fighting 3 people off point and my team is roaming aimlessly around the map while the other team has 3-cap prompting me to mutter my annoyance in team channel. You can’t pull off a win by yourself.

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.

One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..

Eurantien.4632:

Archon.6480:

Oh, one more image for giggles. This match was made in hell. Notice a problem?

I mean, if you are on a 30 game loose streak, you have to understand how the following match up would give anyone a rotten attitude? No?

Anyhow, if you are on a loose streak, find 2-3 people to queue with. Problem solved. Take it out of the hands of the matchmaker.

I’d argue it was a close game, and that your build wasn’t optimal to carry your team. Though the 2 queue on your side being ruby and emerald vs their 3 queue of diamonds would be upsetting.

Yeah, I usually run ROM’s build which, is probably the best build in ordinary circumstances. I can’t remember why I decided to switch to such a high condition damage build that time. Probably just kittened off and wanted to kill everything as fast as possible.

Regardless, even a well played shoutbow comes up short when you’re in the snowball:

Chaith we got into this discussion because you were talking about “carry mentality”. I called malarkey. Now you are saying team mates are irrelevant and a good player can help win a winnable game.

You ceased making sense a long time ago give up.

Eurantien.4632:

I was genuinely curious when I started on this alt account to see if I would get stuck in MMR Hell.

Oddly enough, I find it easier on my alt account. Not sure why.

To all you mmr deniers I would say this:

1. Maybe you’re not as good as you think you are.

2. Maybe you got carried to dia/legend … by a system … which matches winners w/ winners against losers (including of lower divs) and matches losers w/ losers against winners (including of higher divs).

Hmmmm. Trolls one and all. Smugness and qq about how great we are some more?

They are in their own blissful little world aren’t they? Make a thread and people add thoughtful and factual contributions and they are like “Nup, I’m good you’re bad and that’s all I have to say about that.” I suppose they should be congratulated on learning how to type.

jessiestiles.9437:

You ceased making sense a long time ago give up.

Crap comments like this are why we can’t have nice things. You’ve misinterpreted about everything I’ve said so far

I’m sorry but you are trying to argue a delusional point. What do you want me to say? I’m suprised crap isn’t censored lol.

Definitely not delusional to say that how efficiently a player plays will affect his win rate, independent of his teammates.

The winning players always like to think their input really mattered, and the losing players always like to think that the teammates are always the problem, it’s often true both ways. So much breath wasted on these forums trying to call out biases, and it’s getting pretty old.

There’s definitely a skillset or mindset that goes into getting the ball rolling to Legendary in S2, call malarkey or whatever cool kids say these days.

Archon.6480:

Eurantien.4632:

Archon.6480:

Oh, one more image for giggles. This match was made in hell. Notice a problem?

I mean, if you are on a 30 game loose streak, you have to understand how the following match up would give anyone a rotten attitude? No?

Anyhow, if you are on a loose streak, find 2-3 people to queue with. Problem solved. Take it out of the hands of the matchmaker.

I’d argue it was a close game, and that your build wasn’t optimal to carry your team. Though the 2 queue on your side being ruby and emerald vs their 3 queue of diamonds would be upsetting.

Yeah, I usually run ROM’s build which, is probably the best build in ordinary circumstances. I can’t remember why I decided to switch to such a high condition damage build that time. Probably just kittened off and wanted to kill everything as fast as possible.

Regardless, even a well played shoutbow comes up short when you’re in the snowball:

I would actually argue that full glass ranger like the one I was playing might be one of the best carry options. You can single handedly slay a team fight, you can save teammates with search and rescue. Sure, druid is really strong, but if your teammates aren’t killing people you probably won’t be.

jessiestiles.9437:

I’m sorry but you are trying to argue a delusional point. What do you want me to say? I’m surprised crap isn’t censored lol.

Or other nonswears that could still be used to insult like garbage for that matter. Not because I agree with that choice but because of how over the top the filter can sometimes be.

You guy’s are still missing the point of league’s, they where meant to grow the pvp playerbase, so eventually you might get some competition. Now can you honestly say some of these pve player’s ( i don’t mean that in a derogatory way) will want to come back?

Or how about someone in my shoe’s? Do you think i’m having fun solo wiping the enemy team and still losing because my teammates like to zerg? hell i’m running a zerk ammy on a dd / pp thief just to give myself some challenge. And if it ain’t fun for me how do you think the people i’m annihilating feel?

These leagues are doing more damage then good. Get over your pride and realize that without growing the playerbase this game will die, fast. you “top tier” (yeah right) player’s need to take the hit, but at least you might get some competition down the road.

These leagues are doing more damage then good.

I’m not sure your optimism is well founded. I agree they are doing more damage but don’t think that good will follow. My MMR is so irredeemably deflated and broken that I may as well retire from the game entirely since the only “fix” would be buying a new account or finding a team. Since no one wants your horrid MMR dragging them down that only leaves option A, which to have a fighting chance in this game requires spending more money.

Not in this system, i would go so far as to say the very first league grew the population more then then second, but i have no data to back up my claim. I should also point out that my opinion is based on perhaps 30 games top’s this season. as i stopped playing this game for awhile and only recently picked it back up. (i wanted to see how bad the matchmaking was)

Eurantien.4632:

I would actually argue that full glass ranger like the one I was playing might be one of the best carry options. You can single handedly slay a team fight, you can save teammates with search and rescue. Sure, druid is really strong, but if your teammates aren’t killing people you probably won’t be.

I felt the same way you did about your Power Ranger when I solo’d my Viper P/P Grenade Engi up in S1. It would just crap on anyone unfortunate enough to eat Grenades while reviving/stomping.

Lost builds like Condi Engi and Power Ranger definitely are fun to see at work in the hands of someone who feels comfortable using a mere mortal build aka, surviving without a ton of sustain or unavoidable damage.

Sigh, now I have pre-HoT build nostalgia.

Chaith.8256:

Sigh, now I have pre-HoT build nostalgia.

Chaith.8256:

Definitely not delusional to say that how efficiently a player plays will affect his win rate, independent of his teammates.

That’s true. I never said otherwise. It’s your “carry mentality” that’s delusional. Then you said a good player can win a close game I.E. they didn’t carry at all. Both TEAMS did really well. If you try to push your carry crap you’ll end up talking in circles and not making any sense. It is malarkey and I thought you were younger than me.

You should feel proud about your accomplishments and I’m positive loads of games were won by virtue of your presence on the team.

Chaith.8256:

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.

One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..

I’m sorry but that simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever unless you live in a world where everyone but you is garbage.

How can, all things being equal, 80% of what participate in a match not matter significantly more than anything your 20% does?

I get that you are great and all but unless your gyro or Helseth clones can cap by themselves because you are just plain THAT awesome logic still apply.

Seems to me like ANET reached out to some pro league players.

ANET: Guys, the season sucks. we know it. We are afraid of losing players. If we lose players, there won’t be a pro league.
Pro League: Ok, ANET. Give us a script and we’ll see if anyone believes us in the forums.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Chaith.8256:

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.

One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..

I’m sorry but that simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever unless you live in a world where everyone but you is garbage.

How can, all things being equal, 80% of what participate in a match not matter significantly more than anything your 20% does?

I get that you are great and all but unless your gyro or Helseth clones can cap by themselves because you are just plain THAT awesome logic still apply.

Ideally we would would all contribute 20% to a win. Realistically, a better player will contribute more to a win (carry teamfights, win a 1v2, etc). That’s not how it should be every game, but that’s the difference between someone saying they are stuck when they solely contribute their 20% and a good player who puts the team on his/her back when the time calls for it. Carry mentality.

MMR hell is a bad players excuse for being bad. Their MMR is totally low through no fault of their own, and they’re suddenly way better now than they were when it tanked. They were just testing builds or playing with friends!

Forget that people like myself have streamed F2P warriors to legendary, that doesn’t prove anything because we didn’t lose 50 games in a row first!

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith we got into this discussion because you were talking about “carry mentality”. I called malarkey. Now you are saying team mates are irrelevant and a good player can help win a winnable game.

You ceased making sense a long time ago give up.

I agree with Chaith. I haven’t played this game in over a year, came back and just went 100% in Jewel 1, lost 1 in Jewel 2, and then lost 2 in Jewel 3 (1 was a 4v5, 1 was a loss on that new map ) PS – I’m playing Core Ranger – haven’t purchased the expansion.

I’m doing well because I know my role still and when and where to engage and disengage. Carrying People doesn’t mean – 1 v 3ing people. It means /team chat and knowing what to do to help the team win.

We’ll see where I level off – won’t be legendary most likely this season – I don’t know enough about the new skills and system – but I’ll get there again.

style.6173:

Seems to me like ANET reached out to some pro league players.

ANET: Guys, the season sucks. we know it. We are afraid of losing players. If we lose players, there won’t be a pro league.
Pro League: Ok, ANET. Give us a script and we’ll see if anyone believes us in the forums.

Ha-ha that’s a really funny script, pro league players trying to further some agenda by chatting on the forums about the game they’re passionate about, never heard that one before.

It’s pretty much what every single kitten on these forums turns every discussion into

Browrain.7346:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Chaith.8256:

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.

One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..

I’m sorry but that simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever unless you live in a world where everyone but you is garbage.

How can, all things being equal, 80% of what participate in a match not matter significantly more than anything your 20% does?

I get that you are great and all but unless your gyro or Helseth clones can cap by themselves because you are just plain THAT awesome logic still apply.

Ideally we would would all contribute 20% to a win. Realistically, a better player will contribute more to a win (carry teamfights, win a 1v2, etc). That’s not how it should be every game, but that’s the difference between someone saying they are stuck when they solely contribute their 20% and a good player who puts the team on his/her back when the time calls for it. Carry mentality.

I entirely agree we are not all worth the same in a team but if you think you weight more than 2 of the people you are with or against all the time there is a big problem somewhere all thing being equals.

And let’s assume you always weight that much, no matter what, it still isn’t enough to amount to what weight the most in a team. Not even considering that even if you can 3 v 1 all players in existence always you can never be at 3 spots at the same time while they can no matter how garbage they are. You have to consider that into how much you think you can carry because the inherent limit of being one come really fast.

Celeras.4980:

MMR hell is a bad players excuse for being bad. Their MMR is totally low through no fault of their own, and they’re suddenly way better now than they were when it tanked. They were just testing builds or playing with friends!

Forget that people like myself have streamed F2P warriors to legendary, that doesn’t prove anything because we didn’t lose 50 games in a row first!

Yeah, and logical fallacies are the tools of the logically deprived apparently…

Good thread OP.

The issue is that people who got Legendary last season just assumed they were supposed to be there again this season since they are “that good”. Even so, there are a lot of people who shouldn’t be Legendary that are still. I think the system is getting better but isn’t quite right just yet.

tichorum.2415:

Good thread OP.

The issue is that people who got Legendary last season just assumed they were supposed to be there again this season since they are “that good”. Even so, there are a lot of people who shouldn’t be Legendary that are still. I think the system is getting better but isn’t quite right just yet.

Better depends on how you look at things. Is s2 better at placing skilled players at high divs? most likely yes. Is s2 better at promoting the game as in getting more people playing? most likely no.

Browrain.7346:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Chaith.8256:

jessiestiles.9437:

Chaith, everybody who ever played pvp for any substantial amount of time would have moments where they know their own actions were a big reason for a win. I’m sure a person of your calibre would have even more of these moments than the average joe. You might even get to the stage of believing that you carried the entire team through most of your games. It’s not true though. You won’t win any game if your teammates don’t play their part too.

Gaining divisions isn’t about winning a 1v3 and single handedly winning the game. There’s actually a reason why people do better at this game than others, no, it’s not getting teammates who play their part.

One very efficient and aware player will almost always make the difference in guaranteeing that every highly winnable/close game is in the bag. And that’s definitely worth trying to achieve instead of just dismissing it..

I’m sorry but that simply doesn’t make any sense whatsoever unless you live in a world where everyone but you is garbage.

How can, all things being equal, 80% of what participate in a match not matter significantly more than anything your 20% does?

I get that you are great and all but unless your gyro or Helseth clones can cap by themselves because you are just plain THAT awesome logic still apply.

Ideally we would would all contribute 20% to a win. Realistically, a better player will contribute more to a win (carry teamfights, win a 1v2, etc). That’s not how it should be every game, but that’s the difference between someone saying they are stuck when they solely contribute their 20% and a good player who puts the team on his/her back when the time calls for it. Carry mentality.

Yes that’s sensical. Games do not happen in a vacuum. Every team will have a weakest link and a strongest link. True. But one player putting the entire team on their back is not reality. In a game where the score is 100-500 there is nothing any one player can do to win.

Everyone loves close games that are evenly matched. Towards the end everyone has a heightened awareness. The adrenaline is pumping. Everyone is analysing the situation, the fight, the map looking for the way to steal the win. It’s not just pros that do this it’s intrinsic to human nature. For the winning side every person on that team is responsible for the outcome.

So last season it was a lot harder to win because it was an even competition. You have a player on both sides putting in 40%. Who wins? The above senario unfolds. This season we have a system that stacks higher mmr players against lower mmr and a huge debate about carrying (which is pure fantasy) ensues as a method to justify an irrational system and blame people for their predicament.

Eurantien.4632:

Someone made a really good point earlier that MMR Hell was essentially players who were better (even if just slightly) than where they are stuck. As a consequence they aren’t yet good enough to really make up for the lack of their teammates skills.

I imagine this is likely to be the case. These sticking points appear to occur in MMR ranges where players are probably better than their teammates but not better enough to consistently make oversized contributions to the final outcome aka “carry the game.” This is a crucial juncture point. If they win they maintain their MMR momentum. If they lose they risk having the MMR momentum carry them in the other direction where losing snowballs them further and further into an MMR hole (the so-called MMR hell) and where it becomes more and more difficult to crawl out as their oversized contributions need to be more and more oversized in order to carry their games. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle where winners get it easier and easier over time while losers get it harder and harder over time. So much seems to depend on just maintaining momentum through the tiers and quickly overcoming sticking points where they occur. Once that metaphorical loss snowball gets rolling it’s going to be tough for anyone as I think Archon’s post demonstrates quite well.

Eurantien.4632:

I think Chaith put it well as basically a solo queue mentality, over time you just know where to go, where the other team will go, which teammates you need to baby sit in order to succeed which ends up being a lot more impactful than a player who just goes far and wins a 1 v 1 over and over. So these players who are stuck are in a sense, are somewhat where they deserve to be, yet it appears that these players believe that they deserve to be stuck somewhere where their teammates aren’t making the terrible mistakes every game (like 1 guy who comes to your point for no reason) but in fact they are the ones making mistakes. I think there is a lot of validity to that claim because, as these players have stated, this is where their hard work can be seen to pay off. Instead of having to carry their team they instead are able to just focus on improving themselves. Unfortunately, with the current system it appears to be forcing players to simultaneously improve their personal play and their solo queue awareness/team play, understandably a frustrating thing for them to do.

There might be a point early in the snowball process where a certain mentality shift could turn things around. This is assuming that it’s just a few crucial team plays that are making the difference between their wins and losses. But what happens when it’s a lot of crucial errors being made map wide throughout the entire game? No one player can be everywhere at once. I think that’s where players start to feel like they’re in “MMR Hell.” What they’re really experiencing is the loser’s snowball effect where their oversized contributions need to be more and more oversized in order to win their games. At the same time there’s a psychological snowball effect to losing. Players become less and less inclined to try to go that extra mile to help their team because they become less and less confident that their efforts will be rewarded. So losing doesn’t just deflate MMR it deflates confidence.

Eurantien.4632:

I was genuinely curious when I started on this alt account to see if I would get stuck in MMR Hell. There are so many threads about it that it seems it is an inevitable outcome of queuing through tiers. Yet I never experienced it. Through the discussion on this thread it seems that yes, I am not one who would likely fall into MMR Hell and I have gained a better understanding of what is really going on and it is that mentioned in my previous paragraph. Players are not good enough to carry their way out of MMR Hell and they also feel that they should be somewhere where they are the ones who need the most improving and not their teammates. In an ideal world I would hope that sometimes players at their appropriate places should feel both ways. Sometimes they should have to carry a little but I think that also comes with solo queue awareness things like a body is down and your teammates is stomping and you realize they are stomping too so you need to swap targets interrupt the stomp so you guys can get your stomp first, or stealthing your teammate. Quick little plays that you can do that can end up making a big difference. A won fight often creates a snowball effect. Other times they should be the ones who need to improve in order to really carry forward, but hopefully they are only making small mistakes, like a player deciding to stomp a body instead of cleaving it out, because of this decision the other team got the stomp first and won the fight.

I find it pretty hard to imagine a scenario where someone like you or Chaith would ever find yourselves on the losing side of the MMR snowball. For one thing you guys are some of the best (if not the best) players in the game just from a mechanical and awareness standpoint and secondarily because having you guys on a team fills people’s metaphorical confidence bars. I know I always play better when I get someone like Zoose or Muffins or Chaith on my team because I believe we will win and that gives me the confidence to attempt plays that I might ordinarily shy away from. I’m sure this is true of other players as well although top tier players may take the psychological effect for granted as it’s just the norm for them.

Israel.7056:

Eurantien.4632:

Someone made a really good point earlier that MMR Hell was essentially players who were better (even if just slightly) than where they are stuck. As a consequence they aren’t yet good enough to really make up for the lack of their teammates skills.

I imagine this is likely to be the case. These sticking points appear to occur in MMR ranges where players are probably better than their teammates but not better enough to consistently make oversized contributions to the final outcome aka “carry the game.” This is a crucial juncture point. If they win they maintain their MMR momentum. If they lose they risk having the MMR momentum carry them in the other direction where losing snowballs them further and further into an MMR hole (the so-called MMR hell) and where it becomes more and more difficult to crawl out as their oversized contributions need to be more and more oversized in order to carry their games. It’s a self-reinforcing cycle where winners get it easier and easier over time while losers get it harder and harder over time. So much seems to depend on just maintaining momentum through the tiers and quickly overcoming sticking points where they occur. Once that metaphorical loss snowball gets rolling it’s going to be tough for anyone as I think Archon’s post demonstrates quite well.

Eurantien.4632:

I think Chaith put it well as basically a solo queue mentality, over time you just know where to go, where the other team will go, which teammates you need to baby sit in order to succeed which ends up being a lot more impactful than a player who just goes far and wins a 1 v 1 over and over. So these players who are stuck are in a sense, are somewhat where they deserve to be, yet it appears that these players believe that they deserve to be stuck somewhere where their teammates aren’t making the terrible mistakes every game (like 1 guy who comes to your point for no reason) but in fact they are the ones making mistakes. I think there is a lot of validity to that claim because, as these players have stated, this is where their hard work can be seen to pay off. Instead of having to carry their team they instead are able to just focus on improving themselves. Unfortunately, with the current system it appears to be forcing players to simultaneously improve their personal play and their solo queue awareness/team play, understandably a frustrating thing for them to do.

There might be a point early in the snowball process where a certain mentality shift could turn things around. This is assuming that it’s just a few crucial team plays that are making the difference between their wins and losses. But what happens when it’s a lot of crucial errors being made map wide throughout the entire game? No one player can be everywhere at once. I think that’s where players start to feel like they’re in “MMR Hell.” What they’re really experiencing is the loser’s snowball effect where their oversized contributions need to be more and more oversized in order to win their games. At the same time there’s a psychological snowball effect to losing. Players become less and less inclined to try to go that extra mile to help their team because they become less and less confident that their efforts will be rewarded. So losing doesn’t just deflate MMR it deflates confidence.

Eurantien.4632:

I was genuinely curious when I started on this alt account to see if I would get stuck in MMR Hell. There are so many threads about it that it seems it is an inevitable outcome of queuing through tiers. Yet I never experienced it. Through the discussion on this thread it seems that yes, I am not one who would likely fall into MMR Hell and I have gained a better understanding of what is really going on and it is that mentioned in my previous paragraph. Players are not good enough to carry their way out of MMR Hell and they also feel that they should be somewhere where they are the ones who need the most improving and not their teammates. In an ideal world I would hope that sometimes players at their appropriate places should feel both ways. Sometimes they should have to carry a little but I think that also comes with solo queue awareness things like a body is down and your teammates is stomping and you realize they are stomping too so you need to swap targets interrupt the stomp so you guys can get your stomp first, or stealthing your teammate. Quick little plays that you can do that can end up making a big difference. A won fight often creates a snowball effect. Other times they should be the ones who need to improve in order to really carry forward, but hopefully they are only making small mistakes, like a player deciding to stomp a body instead of cleaving it out, because of this decision the other team got the stomp first and won the fight.

I find it pretty hard to imagine a scenario where someone like you or Chaith would ever find yourselves on the losing side of the MMR snowball. For one thing you guys are some of the best (if not the best) players in the game just from a mechanical and awareness standpoint and secondarily because having you guys on a team fills people’s metaphorical confidence bars. I know I always play better when I get someone like Zoose or Muffins or Chaith on my team because I believe we will win and that gives me the confidence to attempt plays that I might ordinarily shy away from. I’m sure this is true of other players as well although top tier players may take the psychological effect for granted as it’s just the norm for them.

…and such players will also get the best players playing on their team BECAUSE of how the MM works. So, yeah, you might carry but carrying the best available to you vs the worst possible in the pip range is not quite the same at all.

The insulting things for me when ppl allude that if you have issues it has to be because you can’t get into a “carrying mindset” is that they inherently assume we are not already on overdrive but still vastly overpowered by what we have to “carry”. The amount of sheer baseless assumptions that are made in these threads are just staggering.

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

if you have low MMR from previous ranked games played, why do you think you deserve to progress?…

lighter.2708:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

if you have low MMR from previous ranked games played, why do you think you deserve to progress?…

Because you should not be eternally punished for playing non-meta previously when there was no lasting consequence for doing it? Because you got better from making mistakes but the system take a lot of time correcting itself for an entire history?

The thing is, no matter what, you should not advocate a hard or ez path based on who you were. You compete with current players not their past. If you are good, you do not need to have it even easier or the opposite. Win by having the same conditions as others or just go home.

The only “MMR Hell” I suffered was near the beginning of the season when I was in the last tier of diamond and most proleague players were somewhere close to that (probably like half way through legend 1) and every other game I was in 3-4 players on enemy team were in pro league players and my team had none. That was pretty obnoxious matchmaking but it only lasted like less than a week

jessiestiles.9437:

Oh you had difficulty maintaing a 50% winrate last season but you were carrying other players which was impossible to do. Prepare your thoughts before making other people read them.

Also you’ve been complaining about being in the same situation as everyone else for weeks now. Even just 3 hours ago in this very thread. Do I need to refer you to that post again?

Where did you read that I had difficulty maintaining 50% winrate in season1? I did NOT have any problems with that, please read more careful.

Also, what you read as “complaining about being stuck in mmr hell” was, and again… please start to read more carefully… the acknowledgement that there IS a mmr hell. That players CAN get stuck there. But also that good players CAN get out of it.

Oh yasi let’s just clarify some kittens here. Last I read from you was you were in ruby and complaining about your teamates. Just today you were saying that you log your main account in and lose repeatedly. Again quote you said you are a “good player”. So enthrall me by explaining how you, as a good player, clawed your way out of MMR hell and are still in a losing streak? Kittens.

I was mocking you with the 50% thing. And I think you know why. Yes you struggled to maintain a 54% winrate. Happy?

The post didn’t prove anything about “MMR Hell”, but the matches gave very good insight into what is the most efficient way to affect a match. It also debunked the myth that you have to run a HOT build or you will fail. Was like the fluffy bunny scene from Monty Python. How cute they have a Ranger with a greatsword and a wolf. This should be an easy fight…

AS for the MMR hell, I have a poor win/loss ratio and mostly play late 9pm and later pacific (us) time. I get a lot of matches with griefers and people who quit after the first team match loss, but I have enough matches that are winnable that I could get out of ruby if I could step up my game a bit. I have no doubt that he could log into my account and get to legendary without much of an issue. He would probably lose a few matches than on his alt, due to being on the wrong side of the MMR equation, but there is not that big of a gap between the wins and losses on my matches.

There are a lot of things I don’t like about the matchmaking,, but S2 has made me spend a lot more time looking into why I’m not Performing well than S1.

Eurantien.4632:

Is it based purely on MMR?

Did I skip right over it by getting a 100% winrate in Ruby playing core ranger?

Part of me thinks that I just wasn’t bad enough to lose? The only games I lost were 1 in Emerald because my teammates were awful and I was refusing to carry the team fight (so that was my bad). And then later I just kept 1 v 1ing for funsies in Saphire so my team also kept losing in the team fight. Afterwards I would just go carry the team fight and we’d be on our merry way to a crushing victory.

This kind of just makes me think that “MMR Hell” is simply that people are where they are supposed to be.

Amber/Emerald: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/55791944
Rest of Emerald: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/56057538
Saphire: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/56586587
Ruby: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/56788837

Meanwhile: There is a thread also on the front page atm:

“Lower tier ruby what do I need 2 do 2 win”

Faux Play.6104:

I’m in the lower tier of ruby and struggling to put together win streaks. What is the main thing I need to focus on to win more matches?

match 1 504 – 466 Loss
match 2 500-340 Loss

Take a look at my vod, playing a non meta build vs. his vod playing a meta build. Given that the OP of this thread is saying, “can’t put together winstreaks” I think we could say he is in MMR Hell? Yet when you compare the two the difference in game play is apparent. I do not believe this player, at his/her current level should be making it out of Ruby.

Edit: It seems that the way season 2 works players are matched up on their teams with similar MMR which would then allow for people on winstreaks to just keep winning. This is highly likely what happened and I did just skip over “MMR Hell”.

Celeras.4980:

MMR hell is a bad players excuse for being bad. Their MMR is totally low through no fault of their own, and they’re suddenly way better now than they were when it tanked. They were just testing builds or playing with friends!

Forget that people like myself have streamed F2P warriors to legendary, that doesn’t prove anythng because we didn’t lose 50 games in a row first!

I never said its was not my fault – I have always admitted I got into MMRHell from mistakes I made in the past – plz read first!

not way better but I feel I am improving but obviously not enough to show any progression in this TEAM game – and obviously I have to improve to such a level kitten I can carry a team to show that – well I am not there yet and with my MMR as it is I never will – but I will just keep trying and do the best I can!

lighter.2708:

Tenebria.7239:

Hubris.7436:

As far as I’m concerned, people have an overblown opinion of how good they are and they are also convinced that they should get to legendary as long as they keep queuing ranked. I don’t think that everyone should get legendary, and I think that what people consider “MMR hell” is actually the right bracket for them if they can’t get out of it. The fact that exceptional players can get to legendary without many problems on an alt account, which would have no MMR to “help” them, convinces me even more of this.

Or the problem that alt accounts have an easier time progressing than accounts that have a low mmr from a previous season……

No one is saying that legendary players can’t make legendary, MMR hell is mid tier ruby players being stuck at ruby t0 with teammates that threecap home, rush enemy lord etc…

if you have low MMR from previous ranked games played, why do you think you deserve to progress?…

well possibly by showing improvement now – or is that not allowed !!

obviously all these threads demonstrate is the true spirit of pvp!

jessiestiles.9437:

Oh yasi let’s just clarify some kittens here. Last I read from you was you were in ruby and complaining about your teamates. Just today you were saying that you log your main account in and lose repeatedly. Again quote you said you are a “good player”. So enthrall me by explaining how you, as a good player, clawed your way out of MMR hell and are still in a losing streak? Kittens.

I was mocking you with the 50% thing. And I think you know why. Yes you struggled to maintain a 54% winrate. Happy?

Its fascinating how you can read posts and just ignore what you dont like and doesnt fit your view. But hey, Ill humor you… the key part of said post is:
“If I play during a low playerpool time”
Oh guess what… I just dont do that anymore except if I want to make a point.
I play during primetime, I carry matches that look hopeless after first teamfight to a close win, I dont re-queue immediatly after but wait around 10 minutes for new teammates… and because I increase my mmr steadily by consistently doing this, I get “rewarded” with better teammates after each close win.

Ok I misunderstood your post. I apologise. So you are logging in prime time and winning most of your matches. Well congratulations on figuring out the secret to MMR hell. Although it’s still hard to believe it’s as simple as the time of day you log in. What division are you in now and how is your progression?

jessiestiles.9437:

Ok I misunderstood your post. I apologise. So you are logging in prime time and winning most of your matches. Well congratulations on figuring out the secret to MMR hell. Although it’s still hard to believe it’s as simple as the time of day you log in. What division are you in now and how is your progression?

Actually it is true what time of day matters a LOT.

I play during OCX/SEA so my queues in legend are 5-20 min (usually over 10). Some days I get sunfish (ESL player) other days I get diamond mesmers who look like they just copied metabattle and have no idea how to play.

I find that during NA prime you will get more people that are generally within your MMR range rather than wide spreads. This makes it slightly easier to coordinate since everyone is on similar skill level.

In diamond I decided that after 1-2 losses I would stop since the timezone didn’t favor me at all (usually blowouts) and only played if I was consistently winning since it would almost be always the same 6/10 people.

I was stuck in diamond T0 “MMR hell” for a while until I followed this principle to not tilt my gameplay due to bad matchmaking.

Diamond t2, and its roughly two wins to each loss. Its a slow climb and you have to be disciplined about it… no grinding matches, queueing straight after a match is a big no-no as well as playing outside primetime.

I also have a list of players that I have to avoid at all costs. If they sit in hotm, Im not queueing, period. Those players are so unbelievably bad, you cant carry them. No way, no how. They run into 4v1 situations repeatedly and just feed points. You actually would have more chances on winning a 4v5 match, than winning with those players actively playing.

Its really not as easy, but its possible. You have to stick to one build that can carry (hint… dps meta…) and play 110% each match.

What makes me angry, is that I even have to do this. And that Im always carrying someone to wins that that player does not in the least deserve.

Woah, this thread blew up fast. But expectedly so. If not read with reflection and thought, some points could be missed and things could be taken a bit too personally.

MMR hell does exist. The MMR system is usually placing higher MMR players with players similar in caliber. Saying that it doesnt exist is being somewhat myopic. There’s a reason why the general community is in uproar, and implying (notice how I said it’s not your opinion or a fact) that it’s because the community doesn’t want to improve is neglect. As competitive players, it’s important to keep in mind the big picture and that the community in general, although melodramatic, makes suggestions for a reason.

On the other hand, maybe it’s not really a MMR “hell”. Slightly disadvantaged maybe, but I definitely agree that there seems to be a lot more blame on the system rather than a strive to improve. But that’s what people want in a game you see? People like winning, and want to feel good from a videogame, where the primary purpose is enjoyment.

Perhaps people are really “carrying so hard” in solo que and can’t get out of the hell, but that’s ignoring that competitive tournament players like you and I that are proof that the “hell” can be gotten out of. “carrying” is also very subjective. But how can we ask players to improve when they don’t really want to? Is that fair for a system in a game that’s targetted towards casuals?

The necessity of this post in the first place is a bit questionable, and doesn’t exactly fulfill a purpose when the community is more than likely to blow up and defend themselves. My own stance is that people are indeed complaining a bit too much, and really, it’s an individual issue that can’t really be discussed because people have different needs. To cater to the majority, I do dislike the MMR hell and if it means that I have to get worse ques with people below my MMR and “carry” people who think they are “carrying”, I would take that for the health of the game.