Guild Wars 2

Jourdelune.7456:

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Good grief. The more arguments you lose and flail around trying to keep up with, the more you try and divert things by reaching into that deep bag of chocolate covered pretzel strawmen that you’re holding on to.

Please show your sources on numbers instead of pulling them out of that bag.

Phaeton.9582:

Velimere.7685:

Phaeton.9582:

Velimere.7685:

Secondly, most skill-based games are buy-to-play.

If by ‘skill-based’ you mean ‘competitive’, you must be talking to us from the 90s.

In which case, why is HoT even relevant to you? Go play some Ultima or something.

You must know absolutely nothing about skill-based or competitive games if you think my factual statement only holds relevance to the 90s. Sorry, but the majority of registered ESL games require you to buy them. People foolishly think that free-to-play MOBAs are the majority of such when there’s actually only a handful of popular ones.

ook friend let me put it another way

How many of these ‘skill based or competitive’ games sit behind paywall that crops up biennially and bears little to no relevance to the competitive game itself?

Why do I get the feeling you’ll tell me why this is a widely adopted business model.

Possibly because you’ve posted the same opinion 50 times in this thread.

Let’s not fight; she’ll make you to stay with your aunty and uncle in bel air. Trust me on this one.

Phaeton, its no use reasoning with Velle, he/she has already posted that being able to buy in game advantages with cash is not p2w- even buying better gear and so forth with in game currency bought with real cash is not p2w in their view.

zinkz.7045:

Yasha.5963:

zinkz.7045:

It isn’t P2W because the reality is GW2 is not really a F2P game, it is much more like a very extended demo where you are expected to actually buy the game if you like the game enough to keep on playing.

So are the people who bought the base game playing a “very extended demo”?

The people that bought the base game, bought it at time when it was not marketed as “play for free”, it was strictly buy to play, if a buy to play game releases an expansion then I think the expectation is you pay for it and it is unlikely you will get it for free.

This in particular touched my heart.

Everyone has interesting points and I respect these views but feel there’s a bit of bias to them. Players don’t like playing with expansion players so you have that negative connotation. In its simplest form that’s the underlying root here.
coughtstillb2pcough

Relative to most game developers and publishers, Anet is one of the least money-hungry. They could have offered an xpac discount for pvp only but it’s probably too late in the product cycle for them to do that now. $50 for the xpac is cheap. Paying for the core game is cheap considering the countless hours we’ve benefited from it before it became free. I don’t know, maybe I’m just rich.

abc.5790:

Relative to most game developers and publishers, Anet is one of the least money-hungry. They could have offered an xpac discount for pvp only but it’s probably too late in the product cycle for them to do that now. $50 for the xpac is cheap. Paying for the core game is cheap considering the countless hours we’ve benefited from it before it became free. I don’t know, maybe I’m just rich.

I totally agree, and I think they have actually succeeded to some extent in toning down the relative power of the HoT builds.

Its also true that how much something costs is important. While I feel the game now has an element of p2w that wasn’t there previously, that “p2w” element amounts to only USD50 which is much less than every other mmo that I know of- where you can spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to gain an advantage in pvp.

However, I think what some people are saying is something like “isn’t this a lost opportunity?”. By going f2p, GW2 might have had the potential to gain a portion of the f2p MOBA market, but since you have to pay USD50 to have a reasonable chance at winning, ANET has kind of shot themselves in the foot because anyone who actively plays those types of games is likely to see HoT as a form of p2w and therefore be put off.

Yasha.5963:

Phaeton, its no use reasoning with Velle, he/she has already posted that being able to buy in game advantages with cash is not p2w- even buying better gear and so forth with in game currency bought with real cash is not p2w in their view.

Please don’t project your own personal opinion onto someone else as theirs. Just because you personally believe that it’s okay to have a pay-to-win system where you can have an advantage over other players via a cash shop doesn’t mean that’s someone else’s opinion.

Yasha.5963:

While I feel the game now has an element of p2w that wasn’t there previously,

Regardless of whatever you feel, the fact of the matter is that it’s buy-to-play.

Yasha.5963:

ANET has kind of shot themselves in the foot because anyone who actively plays those types of games is likely to see HoT as a form of p2w and therefore be put off.

Someone would have to be delusional to think that given the fact that it’s buy-to-play.

Velimere.7685:

Yasha.5963:

Phaeton, its no use reasoning with Velle, he/she has already posted that being able to buy in game advantages with cash is not p2w- even buying better gear and so forth with in game currency bought with real cash is not p2w in their view.

Please don’t project your own personal opinion onto someone else as theirs. Just because you personally believe that it’s okay to have a pay-to-win system where you can have an advantage over other players via a cash shop doesn’t mean that’s someone else’s opinion.

You said in this very thread that being able to buy an advantage with money in a pvp game is not p2w. I believe the exact opposite of this which is why I am somewhat disappointed that GW2 has introduced an element (albiet very minor at only USD50) of p2w to the game.

(Actually note that by your own definition of p2w, gw2 is actually p2w since you cannot obtain the advantage in game without paying real cash for it).

Here is a reminder of your definition of p2w:

Velimere.7685:

Pay-to-win isn’t being able to spend money to buy gear and gear modifications that other people can grind to obtain. Pay-to-win is being able to buy gear and/or other items that other people cannot otherwise obtain.

Static.9841:

Jourdelune.7456:

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Good grief. The more arguments you lose and flail around trying to keep up with, the more you try and divert things by reaching into that deep bag of chocolate covered pretzel strawmen that you’re holding on to.

Please show your sources on numbers instead of pulling them out of that bag.

3 sec queue times in August 2015 to October 2015 is enough number for me(yeah 50 000 is perhaps not enough, we have 2 minutes pop… means 120 sec… divide by 3, means 40x players base … means 2000 × 40 = 80 000 oups sorry I was off on top of my nose).

We all know that Anet don’t released their numbers because they fear to show the “failure” of it.

The 2000 serious players, come from the Old skillbased leaderboard, where the top 1000 was filled with casuals playing PVE. x2 per zone NA and EU.

Basically, its not “hard” to make numbers. LOL and DOTA2 are on business model that make plays tens of millions of players.

https://reviewreaperblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/23/moba-demand-and-market-structure/

By the way, you didn’t contribute any informations or opinions on the debate. You simply try to attack myself with your on POV about my stance on the debate.

This is not acceptable on this forum.

The 90$ unlock (10$ per specialisation/ 800 gem), is my own suggestion to let Anet make more money from the spvp F2P market than they make with all their Box sales since 2012.

Do you fear that Anet switch to another business model?

And since you are late in the game and I never seen your account into any PVP posts in the last 4 years, well you probably need to read that thread:

Tons of information about why going F2P properly would open up SPVP success into 1 million of player or more.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/sPvP-needs-its-own-business-model/first

Yasha.5963:

abc.5790:

Relative to most game developers and publishers, Anet is one of the least money-hungry. They could have offered an xpac discount for pvp only but it’s probably too late in the product cycle for them to do that now. $50 for the xpac is cheap. Paying for the core game is cheap considering the countless hours we’ve benefited from it before it became free. I don’t know, maybe I’m just rich.

I totally agree, and I think they have actually succeeded to some extent in toning down the relative power of the HoT builds.

Its also true that how much something costs is important. While I feel the game now has an element of p2w that wasn’t there previously, that “p2w” element amounts to only USD50 which is much less than every other mmo that I know of- where you can spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to gain an advantage in pvp.

However, I think what some people are saying is something like “isn’t this a lost opportunity?”. By going f2p, GW2 might have had the potential to gain a portion of the f2p MOBA market, but since you have to pay USD50 to have a reasonable chance at winning, ANET has kind of shot themselves in the foot because anyone who actively plays those types of games is likely to see HoT as a form of p2w and therefore be put off.

See Bold, All Guild Wars 2 Lovers should ask ANET to make something about the F2P offer.

Actually, new players or F2P players find it B2W or P2W and it’s a bad reputation. Saying over and over like Veli that it’s B2P and not P2W, don’t change the fact that all new F2P will find it P2W. Velimere is not that GODLY powerful.

The minimum to do, is selling specialization unlock at 800+ gems. That way we have a proper F2P business and we will be able to have *a better grow factor out of it.*

Jourdelune.7456:

Silv.9207:

Before HoT, GW2 alwo was not F2P.
What’s the problem if before F2P GW2 was the perfect game and after HoT that game is immediatly become a “P2W”?
Is then the F2P that make a Perfect game a P2W game?

F2P came in august 2015. We had 3 sec queue time with premade at high mmr.

HoT came in October 2015. We have now soloq rank queue time of 8 min+ more at equal or so MMR.

HoT killed the F2P populations.

I am a B2P guy. I like it. But, F2P is what make spvp popular with big population to get a real match-maker that work.

Compare now to September 2015, spvp is dying.

I want spvp to strive like it was in September 2015. The solution is a F2P experiences that have nothing like Buy to Win associated to it, so F2P players can make our game strive again.

Dude, i asked you above, when was HOT announced? And you keep on dodging the question, making the game f2p before HOT release was a marketing strategy.

Velimere.7685:

Phaeton.9582:

I didn’t deny these builds were in use, what I put forwards was that they do little to substantiate a feature-product paywall to an exclusively competitive player base.

PvE, PvP, and WvW are all parts of a whole game of which PvP itself does not substantiate anywhere near the majority of. That goes for Guild Wars 2 as well as Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns. You can apply your negative buzzwords such as “paywall” as much as you’d like in your attempt to avoid and misconstrue against this fact of the matter, but it’ll do little to serve your purpose as long as people are actually aware of it: PvP is only one part of the game, and a smaller part content-wise as is the case with most MMORPGs. A smaller part of the game receiving less relevance from the expansion is nothing short of common sense given that said expansion isn’t dedicated nor exclusive to PvP. That said, being the successfully fleshed out and integrated expansion that Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns is, it also plays a substantial role in the PvP experience with its Elite Specializations.

Phaeton.9582:

Despite this very intellectual manner of yours, you’ve failed to even argue this point – let alone debunk it with un-referenced ‘facts’!

See above for some more facts which deconstruct your argument in its entirety, though that’s not difficult when you’re attempting to detract from big picture facts while arguing big picture references. It’s also cute to see you go back on your word and throw your ethos through the ringer even further, but who needs popcorn when you have self-defamation as treat?

Once again, I have provided no indication that I disputed sPvP, or ‘the competitive game’, is currently a small fraction of an overall package. In fact this to me makes it materially different to the B2P competitive games you make reference to as a trend to justify your argument.

If there is a bigger picture to discuss I would welcome it, however you may have to go further than merely raising unrelated facts for us both to entertain such a thing.

Munch munch defamation munch

Jourdelune.7456:

On the meanwhile, why can’t Anet make some little changes so SPVP can GROW out of serious F2P PVP players?

Thank you,

Hah …. little changes ?
From the on hand we have a player that defends Druids (2 times) , saying they are easy to be killed by him , but in the same time whiining about the Core Specs are left behind , because HoT are more superior ….thus making GW2 P2W ?

And in the other hand pointing the GW2 Devs to see mobas f2p model….MOBAS…MOBAS ….. ?
When they have less bottuns …you cannot be one-shotted by silly mechanics from the first minute they login ingame ..AND THEY OFFER CONSTAND NEW CHAACTERS TO RENEW THEMSELFS ?

Tell me … how the GW2 population recieved the buff-Burn-Warriors and the buff-Balilisk/Poison Utilities-Thiefs , where they antempted to bring the CORE specs on par with the HoT ones?
Was it cool ? Or created more problems ?

And second the moment the games goes F2P it must subtain itself ….no more money from PvE …

And the conclusion is what ?
You aim in simply an other 200k tournaments ?

Yasha.5963:

You said in this very thread that being able to buy an advantage with money in a pvp game is not p2w.

See below:

Yasha.5963:

even buying better gear and so forth with in game currency bought with real cash is not p2w in their view.

Velimere.7685:

Pay-to-win is being able to buy gear and/or other items that other people cannot otherwise obtain.

Now kindly cease with your altogether offensive attempts to misconstrue via straw man.

Jourdelune.7456:

I find it funny, that you said (and I quoted you) that Gw2 is Buy to win. Now you change your stance, once again.

Maybe you should read again exactly what you just quoted me saying there, because that is most definitely not what I said. How ironic, then, that you prior attempted to project your being blind onto me on the previous page.

Phaeton.9582:

Once again, I have provided no indication that I disputed sPvP, or ‘the competitive game’, is currently a small fraction of an overall package.

Good thing I never argued that you did, then. However, what I did was indicate how your argument falls apart given that factual data, and this remains to be true given that you clearly have no argument in this reply.

Phaeton.9582:

In fact this to me makes it materially different to the B2P competitive games you make reference to as a trend to justify your argument.

Now do you have anything else to add to that or did you simply mean to leave it as a blanket statement with no actual information of reference?

Phaeton.9582:

If there is a bigger picture to discuss I would welcome it, however you may have to go further than merely raising unrelated facts for us both to entertain such a thing.

Sadly for you, none of the facts that I have stated are unrelated on any front, so you’ll either have to get a clue or give up. Your sad attempts at obfuscation remain in vain.

Phaeton.9582:

Munch munch defamation munch

Right? Like bowing out but not really. I mean who does that?

Jourdelune.7456:

We are discussing about a lost opportunity to grow the spvp players base with an underpolish F2P system that got a bad reputation of P2W (even if it’s just 50$) by most F2P players.

There’s no evidence of whether or not Free games would produce higher population growth over Payed or Subscription based games.

Secondly, to say the F2P aspecy of GW2 is"underpolished" is subjective. I personally think it’s doing exactly what it’s suppose to do.

Jourdelune.7456:

If someday you are able to do Mark Parkman Abilities (mass domination) over all F2P so they know this is B2P, please do it. On the meanwhile, why can’t Anet make some little changes so SPVP can GROW out of serious F2P PVP players?

Thank you,

In the PvP scene, GW2 HoT is considered an entirely new game where the core game converted into a demo, practically forcing competitive players to rebuy the game when Anet literally said these Elite specs will simply be “a new way to play”.

Yea I can see why some people are infuriated. There should be two different queues for core and HoT players but we all know that’s not realistic at this point.

The reason why I quoted you was because, although I understand players frustration on Anets decision makings between HoT build’s power creep vs core builds, the game’s business model is still B2P.

Velimere.7685:

Yasha.5963:

You said in this very thread that being able to buy an advantage with money in a pvp game is not p2w.

See below:

Yasha.5963:

even buying better gear and so forth with in game currency bought with real cash is not p2w in their view.

Velimere.7685:

Pay-to-win is being able to buy gear and/or other items that other people cannot otherwise obtain.

Now kindly cease with your altogether offensive attempts to misconstrue via straw man.

You seem to have accidentally omitted half of what you actually said, here is it for reference:

Velimere.7685:

Pay-to-win isn’t being able to spend money to buy gear and gear modifications that other people can grind to obtain. Pay-to-win is being able to buy gear and/or other items that other people cannot otherwise obtain.

In my view, which is also likely the view of anyone who plays competitive esports-type games (like LoL, SMITE, etc), paying money to buy an advantage is p2w.

Since you believe “Pay-to-win isn’t being able to spend money to buy gear and gear modifications that other people can grind to obtain”, which basically opens up a game to extreme cases of p2w, I don’t think I or other people interested in promoting GW2 spvp as a top class esport can have a constructive conversation with you.

Your idea that “Pay-to-win isn’t being able to spend money to buy gear and gear modifications that other people can grind to obtain” is basically the antithesis of one of the keystones that makes/made GW2 spvp the premier “battleground” type pvp game in the genre: a level playing field where skill, not gear/levels/money, is the deciding factor.

There are several mmos that have great pvp and combat mechanics, but in those games a player can just buy the best gear with real cash converted to in game currency and dominate the game: something that you believe is not p2w and is apparently totally fine. The shift to a similar direction by ANET with HoT is disturbing to players like me who love GW2 exactly because it is not like that.

ill sum up this thread. people want everything free and not have to do anything for it. selfish entitled people.

Velimere.7685:

Phaeton.9582:

Once again, I have provided no indication that I disputed sPvP, or ‘the competitive game’, is currently a small fraction of an overall package.

Good thing I never argued that you did, then. However, what I did was indicate how your argument falls apart given that factual data, and this remains to be true given that you clearly have no argument in this reply.

How does it fall apart? To me your insistence that sPvP is a fraction of an uncompetitive whole defeats only your initial statement, where you use a trend in competitive games to justify continuing with the existing sPvP business model; you would be implying the two can be compared. You will need to logically justify your argument not just provide unconnected facts or semantics

Dude, if you’re skilled it’s not that hard to hit legend on a f2p account… so how is it p2w again?

Phaeton.9582:

How does it fall apart?

It falls apart because your argument is that a small amount of content is only affected by a small amount of the expansion’s content like that somehow shouldn’t be a given. ArenaNet sells a whole product MMORPG and you are not entitled to dictate what parts of the expansion you buy in choosing or preferring to only utilize some of it.

Phaeton.9582:

To me your insistence that sPvP is a fraction of an uncompetitive whole defeats only your initial statement, where you use a trend in competitive games to justify continuing with the existing sPvP business model; you would be implying the two can be compared.

First of all, World of Warcraft has been the largest comparison point of argument for people here recognizing the fact of the matter that Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns is buy-to-play, and I include myself in that. Second of all, it is a fact that most skill-based games are released in accordance with the buy-to-play model.

Phaeton.9582:

You will need to logically justify your argument not just provide unconnected facts or semantics

It’s a good thing I do logically justify my arguments and don’t just provide unconnected facts or semantics, then.

this thread still going on? fine its pay2win so is every other mmo. now go away and live your life instead of constantly complaining here about how you hate the game. you will get nothing free. nothing will change for you. bye.

Well since I was wrecking in spvp on my core Mesmer I would have to say that this is just a L2P (learn to play) issue.

sophiewhite.3149:

this thread still going on? fine its pay2win so is every other mmo. now go away and live your life instead of constantly complaining here about how you hate the game. you will get nothing free. nothing will change for you. bye.

I don’t think anyone posting about this hates the game, in fact GW2 is my favorite game for this kind of pvp. There are many reasons why I think it is fantastic, a big one being the normalized, level playing field in spvp. It really set GW2 apart from every other mmo, which like you say is p2w: there was absolutely no form of p2w in spvp before HoT, it was amazing.

Even now its still by far the best, but disappointing that there is even an element of p2w introduced.

Yasha.5963:

sophiewhite.3149:

this thread still going on? fine its pay2win so is every other mmo. now go away and live your life instead of constantly complaining here about how you hate the game. you will get nothing free. nothing will change for you. bye.

I don’t think anyone posting about this hates the game, in fact GW2 is my favorite game for this kind of pvp. There are many reasons why I think it is fantastic, a big one being the normalized, level playing field in spvp. It really set GW2 apart from every other mmo, which like you say is p2w: there was absolutely no form of p2w in spvp before HoT, it was amazing.

Even now its still by far the best, but disappointing that there is even an element of p2w introduced.

listen i would waste my time convincing you that you do stand a chance at winning with a base build. but everyone in this thread has proven to be far too stubborn to change their mind. literally arguing for the sake of arguing.

Nah man vanilla sucks and this game is p2w but idc because I paid.

sophiewhite.3149:

Yasha.5963:

sophiewhite.3149:

this thread still going on? fine its pay2win so is every other mmo. now go away and live your life instead of constantly complaining here about how you hate the game. you will get nothing free. nothing will change for you. bye.

I don’t think anyone posting about this hates the game, in fact GW2 is my favorite game for this kind of pvp. There are many reasons why I think it is fantastic, a big one being the normalized, level playing field in spvp. It really set GW2 apart from every other mmo, which like you say is p2w: there was absolutely no form of p2w in spvp before HoT, it was amazing.

Even now its still by far the best, but disappointing that there is even an element of p2w introduced.

listen i would waste my time convincing you that you do stand a chance at winning with a base build. but everyone in this thread has proven to be far too stubborn to change their mind. literally arguing for the sake of arguing.

Of course players “stand a chance” of winning with a vanilla build, but it is much easier to “win” with the HoT builds because they add some extremely powerful traits/etc. Every HoT class/skill line is basically a straight upgrade from the vanilla version. The fact that a player can pay to become more powerful in what was supposed to be a level playing field makes it p2w.

If 1) HoT was required to play spvp, or 2) the HoT specs were not OP compared to vanilla specs, or 3) the HoT specs were available to everyone in spvp, then we would be back to a totally non-p2w game as it was pre-HoT.

Yasha.5963:

It really set GW2 apart from every other mmo, which like you say is p2w: there was absolutely no form of p2w in spvp before HoT, it was amazing.

Even now its still by far the best, but disappointing that there is even an element of p2w introduced.

Seeing as Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns is buy-to-play and not pay-to-win, you don’t have anything to be disappointed about. Like with other MMORPGs, you simply have to buy the expansion.

Doctor.1905:

Nah man vanilla sucks and this game is p2w but idc because I paid.

It’s buy-to-play, not pay-to-win.

Yasha.5963:

The fact that a player can pay to become more powerful in what was supposed to be a level playing field makes it p2w.

Seeing as you have to buy the entire expansion rather than take part in any sort of cash-shop microtransaction(s), the fact is that it’s buy-to-play and not pay-to-win.

Yasha.5963:

If 1) HoT was required to play spvp, or 2) the HoT specs were not OP compared to vanilla specs, or 3) the HoT specs were available to everyone in spvp, then we would be back to a totally non-p2w game as it was pre-HoT.

It’s already “non-p2w” seeing as it’s buy-to-play.

Saiyan.1704:

Jourdelune.7456:

We are discussing about a lost opportunity to grow the spvp players base with an underpolish F2P system that got a bad reputation of P2W (even if it’s just 50$) by most F2P players.

There’s no evidence of whether or not Free games would produce higher population growth over Payed or Subscription based games.

Secondly, to say the F2P aspecy of GW2 is"underpolished" is subjective. I personally think it’s doing exactly what it’s suppose to do.

Jourdelune.7456:

If someday you are able to do Mark Parkman Abilities (mass domination) over all F2P so they know this is B2P, please do it. On the meanwhile, why can’t Anet make some little changes so SPVP can GROW out of serious F2P PVP players?

Thank you,

In the PvP scene, GW2 HoT is considered an entirely new game where the core game converted into a demo, practically forcing competitive players to rebuy the game when Anet literally said these Elite specs will simply be “a new way to play”.

Yea I can see why some people are infuriated. There should be two different queues for core and HoT players but we all know that’s not realistic at this point.

The reason why I quoted you was because, although I understand players frustration on Anets decision makings between HoT build’s power creep vs core builds, the game’s business model is still B2P.

Sorry, August 2015 had queue pop of 3 seconds. This is enough for evidence about the F2P population. I don’t need number from Anet, even if it would be cool.

Do you remember at any other time into your Gw2 PVP experiences moment of 3 seconds queue pop? I am speaking at average or + MMR, with a premade or not. This was tightly coupled with the new F2P offering.

It’s underpolish, because we don’t have 3 sec queue pop anymore right? So, the population “drastically” change for some reason since then, can we agree on this?

It’s simple… F2P did work good, until they ask 50$ for an expac that basically give you 9 OP new classes to play in pvp. Nothing else new for SPVP that you can buy with that 50$. Only 9 new OP classes that easy win versus CORE classes on equal skill level.

(it’s why I don’t answer to all the players saying you can go legendary with core… this is not the subject of the thread)

From there, most F2P players did felt “cheated” by a pay wall and stop playing Gw2. They have other offering in Multiplayer Online Battle Arena that goes with their “playing mentality”.

From that mentality, those free players despise a lot games that include “pay something” to be better than your opponent.

This is a massive exodus of a 3 queue pop time, to the all new 8 minutes queue pop in rank for average MMR +.

Those observations should be enough to understand that the B2P model work great witht he F2P offering before HoT. But didn’t after that.

But it’s all fine anyway, I am losing interest to compete in that game since HoT and nothing is bringing me the excitement of summers 2015 nor the golden era of 2014 skill-based leaderboard (even if dd ele stacking was not great to play with).

Actually, we are all the witness of a dying competitive game that made every decisions to removed the “competitiveness” out of it, to milk out some more boxes to sell.

And still, Unranked match-making is way better than anything else they did this last year.

So… even if I paid my HoT. I feel that F2P players are right to called this game P2W and I side by them. I will do that each time one is calling it. Based on my love for a competitive games, where skill matter more than money or OP elite classes.

Jourdelune.7456:

I feel that F2P players are right to called this game P2W and I side by them.

Except they’d be wrong just as you are wrong since it’s buy-to-play.

Jourdelune.7456:

I will do that each time one is calling it.

You will be wrong every time in doing so.

Jourdelune.7456:

Saiyan.1704:

Jourdelune.7456:

We are discussing about a lost opportunity to grow the spvp players base with an underpolish F2P system that got a bad reputation of P2W (even if it’s just 50$) by most F2P players.

There’s no evidence of whether or not Free games would produce higher population growth over Payed or Subscription based games.

Secondly, to say the F2P aspecy of GW2 is"underpolished" is subjective. I personally think it’s doing exactly what it’s suppose to do.

Jourdelune.7456:

If someday you are able to do Mark Parkman Abilities (mass domination) over all F2P so they know this is B2P, please do it. On the meanwhile, why can’t Anet make some little changes so SPVP can GROW out of serious F2P PVP players?

Thank you,

In the PvP scene, GW2 HoT is considered an entirely new game where the core game converted into a demo, practically forcing competitive players to rebuy the game when Anet literally said these Elite specs will simply be “a new way to play”.

Yea I can see why some people are infuriated. There should be two different queues for core and HoT players but we all know that’s not realistic at this point.

The reason why I quoted you was because, although I understand players frustration on Anets decision makings between HoT build’s power creep vs core builds, the game’s business model is still B2P.

Sorry, August 2015 had queue pop of 3 seconds. This is enough for evidence about the F2P population. I don’t need number from Anet, even if it would be cool.

The last time we had queue times less than 2minutes was when Anet deliberately made it so, via the matchmaking algorithm but I forgot which patch that was. Queue times came suuuper fast but with a cost of matchmaking quality so they reverted it. There has been no other event that increased matchmakimg queue times due to popularity.

Now, August 2015 was the first beta weekend. Free to Play players population was at its peak in early Q1 2017, not in August but there were indeed more Beta testers in August and September.

There is no proof that population effects queue times in fact, there’s more evidence that suggests queue times increases more when there’s a higher player population due to servers being full. This was seen during the Beta Stronghold event.

Saiyan.1704:

Jourdelune.7456:

Saiyan.1704:

Jourdelune.7456:

We are discussing about a lost opportunity to grow the spvp players base with an underpolish F2P system that got a bad reputation of P2W (even if it’s just 50$) by most F2P players.

There’s no evidence of whether or not Free games would produce higher population growth over Payed or Subscription based games.

Secondly, to say the F2P aspecy of GW2 is"underpolished" is subjective. I personally think it’s doing exactly what it’s suppose to do.

Jourdelune.7456:

If someday you are able to do Mark Parkman Abilities (mass domination) over all F2P so they know this is B2P, please do it. On the meanwhile, why can’t Anet make some little changes so SPVP can GROW out of serious F2P PVP players?

Thank you,

In the PvP scene, GW2 HoT is considered an entirely new game where the core game converted into a demo, practically forcing competitive players to rebuy the game when Anet literally said these Elite specs will simply be “a new way to play”.

Yea I can see why some people are infuriated. There should be two different queues for core and HoT players but we all know that’s not realistic at this point.

The reason why I quoted you was because, although I understand players frustration on Anets decision makings between HoT build’s power creep vs core builds, the game’s business model is still B2P.

Sorry, August 2015 had queue pop of 3 seconds. This is enough for evidence about the F2P population. I don’t need number from Anet, even if it would be cool.

The last time we had queue times less than 2minutes was when Anet deliberately made it so, via the matchmaking algorithm but I forgot which patch that was. Queue times came suuuper fast but with a cost of matchmaking quality so they reverted it. There has been no other event that increased matchmakimg queue times due to popularity.

Now, August 2015 was the first beta weekend. Free to Play players population was at its peak in early Q1 2017, not in August but there were indeed more Beta testers in August and September.

There is no proof that population effects queue times in fact, there’s more evidence that suggests queue times increases more when there’s a higher player population due to servers being full. This was seen during the Beta Stronghold event.

I seem to be constantly matched with the same players when I play (on either my team or the opposition). I don’t know if that is due to the way matchmaking works or the population, or a combination of both but it makes me feel like there are only 20 or so players in diamond/legend playing the game (and it was the same at all ranks).

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jay.3409:

agreed. elite spec should be free in instanced pvp like arenas.. ( not so much with wvw as gear matters there )

i bought gw2 before hot, so spending another $50 just for elite spec dont seem worth it tbh..

Then don’t buy it.

Everyone if failing to note one important thing, ANet needs to keep the lights on.

Giving P4F players the Elite specs takes away a reason to buy the game. You know, the thing that funds ANet, you know money, cold hard cash. Now currently P4F players are leaching(for lack of a better word) of others who have stomped up the money to support the game. So the should have every advantage available to them over a P4F player.

I like many others have paid for the game, and HoT, bought gems, can someone tell me why P4F players should get the same things? And no because they are at a disadvantage is not a good reason, If they enjoy the game that much, that they feel they are missing out, buy the game. It’s not a lot of money. it’s £30 on amazon in the UK. That’s a take away, a trip to the movies or a meal in a restaurant.

People who play the game for free don’t deserve anything. They should be grateful they get to demo the game, then buy it later and not have to start over.

Look at it this way, If you are a 100% PvP player, and when the next Xpac came out if ANet said everyone gets the elite specs for free, then anyone who is a 100% PvP player would not buy the next Xpac, I mean why would you? ANet needs a hook for all game modes to get you to buy the next Xpac. They need the money, with out it the game shuts down.

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Who in the blue hell would pay $90 to unlock the elite specs when you can buy all the game for $50? I’m sorry but you are talking crazy.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jay.3409:

agreed. elite spec should be free in instanced pvp like arenas.. ( not so much with wvw as gear matters there )

i bought gw2 before hot, so spending another $50 just for elite spec dont seem worth it tbh..

Then don’t buy it.

Everyone if failing to note one important thing, ANet needs to keep the lights on.

Giving P4F players the Elite specs takes away a reason to buy the game. You know, the thing that funds ANet, you know money, cold hard cash. Now currently P4F players are leaching(for lack of a better word) of others who have stomped up the money to support the game. So the should have every advantage available to them over a P4F player.

I like many others have paid for the game, and HoT, bought gems, can someone tell me why P4F players should get the same things? And no because they are at a disadvantage is not a good reason, If they enjoy the game that much, that they feel they are missing out, buy the game. It’s not a lot of money. it’s £30 on amazon in the UK. That’s a take away, a trip to the movies or a meal in a restaurant.

People who play the game for free don’t deserve anything. They should be grateful they get to demo the game, then buy it later and not have to start over.

Look at it this way, If you are a 100% PvP player, and when the next Xpac came out if ANet said everyone gets the elite specs for free, then anyone who is a 100% PvP player would not buy the next Xpac, I mean why would you? ANet needs a hook for all game modes to get you to buy the next Xpac. They need the money, with out it the game shuts down.

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Who in the blue hell would pay $90 to unlock the elite specs when you can buy all the game for $50? I’m sorry but you are talking crazy.

Please, stop disrespecting players because they don’t think like you.

Most F2P players, will unlock stuff they want over time. And usually they will not unlock all but simply once or twice per year.

I understand we are B2P players, fine… but please try to understand the people that do F2P and why they do it.

Why? They are most likely are 100x populous than B2P one.

Compare the little millions box sales of anet to the 80 millions of Lol (only that game), should be enough for you to understand.

Saiyan.1704:

Jourdelune.7456:

Saiyan.1704:

Jourdelune.7456:

We are discussing about a lost opportunity to grow the spvp players base with an underpolish F2P system that got a bad reputation of P2W (even if it’s just 50$) by most F2P players.

There’s no evidence of whether or not Free games would produce higher population growth over Payed or Subscription based games.

Secondly, to say the F2P aspecy of GW2 is"underpolished" is subjective. I personally think it’s doing exactly what it’s suppose to do.

Sorry, August 2015 had queue pop of 3 seconds. This is enough for evidence about the F2P population. I don’t need number from Anet, even if it would be cool.

The last time we had queue times less than 2minutes was when Anet deliberately made it so, via the matchmaking algorithm but I forgot which patch that was. Queue times came suuuper fast but with a cost of matchmaking quality so they reverted it. There has been no other event that increased matchmakimg queue times due to popularity.

Now, August 2015 was the first beta weekend. Free to Play players population was at its peak in early Q1 2017, not in August but there were indeed more Beta testers in August and September.

There is no proof that population effects queue times in fact, there’s more evidence that suggests queue times increases more when there’s a higher player population due to servers being full. This was seen during the Beta Stronghold event.

1- first, beta week-end was on week-end. I speak about 3 sec q time for all the first month of F2P.

2- you want numbers, there we go:

“After selling 5 million copies worldwide, this August the company made the core online game free to play in an effort to grow its global audience. That strategic decision, which added another 2 million players, was designed to help grow the fan base for the inaugural Guild Wars 2 Pro League Season 1, which launches Dec. 1.”

http://fortune.com/2015/11/24/areanet-investing-in-esports/

Most likely, those F2P players where more interested into PVP than PVE. 2 millions new account in 3 month, while it took 3 years to sell 5 millions.

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2015-09-23/a_look_at_guild_wars_s_move_to_f2p.shtml

“The change to a F2P model has brought Guild Wars 2 a lot of new players. "

It’s hard to find numbers, but many on the internet said that the population from F2P at that time, was something you could FEEL about.

We don’t have numbers, because they don’t released them.

https://girlgamerchronicles.com/2016/02/11/ncsofts-earning-report-q4-2015/

“HoT performance is weaker than expected. The conversion from F2P/core game to HoT is weaker than expected. They look for the reason for this.HoT performance is weaker than expected. The conversion from F2P/core game to HoT is weaker than expected. They look for the reason for this.”

The conversion didn’t work out because HoT felt P2W for them.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Colin-on-esports-and-combat-visibility/first

“ZudetGambeous.9573:
I have no doubt that PvP is growing, but growth does not equal majority. They recently said that since F2P they are getting 3.1 million unique log ins a month.
IIRC that was for the month after it went free to play ie its not an ongoing figure. I would think the November figure would be significantly lower.”

Well… now from 2 millions to 3.

This is a huge GROW wasted down the HoT B2P OP specs. Don’t you think?

Now, let’s say all Elite Spec are sidegrade and F2P players (3 millions at that time in 3 month, compare to 5 in 3 years) could unlock an elite spec for gems/gold.

Does that would had change the P2W mindset of the F2P populations? Imagine it, just for a minute, that those 3 millions would speak to their friend about how awesome F2P spvp is… 3 millions can snowball fast.

It didn’t happen.

It’s the last time that I give numbers search on the web. If you want to refute the argument, please bring your own numbers or research.

Actually, ANET goes F2P to an astonished short time effect that got rekt hard by HoT sales.

And based on that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ncsoft-s-earnings-4Q-2015/page/3#post6024967

HOT would had sold around 300,000 boxes. From 7 millions account (where 3 millions in the last 3 month before hot launch), not even 5% of the Gw2 Buy to Play gamers did convert to HoT.

So, please… by all means. If that is not enough number to correlate the fact that F2P make our pvp games higher in population… i don’t know what to say more.

@Jourdelune
I never said F2P never brought on a huge population. All i’m saying is that population has never decreased queue times; I’ve always experienced normal queue times until Anet changed the algorithm. Even in August, my queues didn’t go below a minute.

Off topic asside, we can talk about how outstanding free to play games are but even that doesn’t keep a player base, so F2P is irrelevant in the long run and it doesn’t change the fact GW2 is b2p.

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jay.3409:

agreed. elite spec should be free in instanced pvp like arenas.. ( not so much with wvw as gear matters there )

i bought gw2 before hot, so spending another $50 just for elite spec dont seem worth it tbh..

Then don’t buy it.

Everyone if failing to note one important thing, ANet needs to keep the lights on.

Giving P4F players the Elite specs takes away a reason to buy the game. You know, the thing that funds ANet, you know money, cold hard cash. Now currently P4F players are leaching(for lack of a better word) of others who have stomped up the money to support the game. So the should have every advantage available to them over a P4F player.

I like many others have paid for the game, and HoT, bought gems, can someone tell me why P4F players should get the same things? And no because they are at a disadvantage is not a good reason, If they enjoy the game that much, that they feel they are missing out, buy the game. It’s not a lot of money. it’s £30 on amazon in the UK. That’s a take away, a trip to the movies or a meal in a restaurant.

People who play the game for free don’t deserve anything. They should be grateful they get to demo the game, then buy it later and not have to start over.

Look at it this way, If you are a 100% PvP player, and when the next Xpac came out if ANet said everyone gets the elite specs for free, then anyone who is a 100% PvP player would not buy the next Xpac, I mean why would you? ANet needs a hook for all game modes to get you to buy the next Xpac. They need the money, with out it the game shuts down.

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Who in the blue hell would pay $90 to unlock the elite specs when you can buy all the game for $50? I’m sorry but you are talking crazy.

Please, stop disrespecting players because they don’t think like you.

Most F2P players, will unlock stuff they want over time. And usually they will not unlock all but simply once or twice per year.

I understand we are B2P players, fine… but please try to understand the people that do F2P and why they do it.

Why? They are most likely are 100x populous than B2P one.

Compare the little millions box sales of anet to the 80 millions of Lol (only that game), should be enough for you to understand.

I just want to note that even if players could buy HoT specs with gems the game would still be p2w because the HoT specs/etc are more powerful than the core specs. Players would still have to pay money to be on an equal footing.

Not saying its a bad idea though (in fact I think its a great idea).

Yasha.5963:

I just want to note that even if players could buy HoT specs with gems the game would still be p2w because the HoT specs/etc are more powerful than the core specs.

Seeing as you have to buy the entire expansion rather than take part in any sort of cash-shop microtransaction(s), the fact is that it’s buy-to-play and not pay-to-win.

Yasha.5963:

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jay.3409:

agreed. elite spec should be free in instanced pvp like arenas.. ( not so much with wvw as gear matters there )

i bought gw2 before hot, so spending another $50 just for elite spec dont seem worth it tbh..

Then don’t buy it.

Everyone if failing to note one important thing, ANet needs to keep the lights on.

Giving P4F players the Elite specs takes away a reason to buy the game. You know, the thing that funds ANet, you know money, cold hard cash. Now currently P4F players are leaching(for lack of a better word) of others who have stomped up the money to support the game. So the should have every advantage available to them over a P4F player.

I like many others have paid for the game, and HoT, bought gems, can someone tell me why P4F players should get the same things? And no because they are at a disadvantage is not a good reason, If they enjoy the game that much, that they feel they are missing out, buy the game. It’s not a lot of money. it’s £30 on amazon in the UK. That’s a take away, a trip to the movies or a meal in a restaurant.

People who play the game for free don’t deserve anything. They should be grateful they get to demo the game, then buy it later and not have to start over.

Look at it this way, If you are a 100% PvP player, and when the next Xpac came out if ANet said everyone gets the elite specs for free, then anyone who is a 100% PvP player would not buy the next Xpac, I mean why would you? ANet needs a hook for all game modes to get you to buy the next Xpac. They need the money, with out it the game shuts down.

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Who in the blue hell would pay $90 to unlock the elite specs when you can buy all the game for $50? I’m sorry but you are talking crazy.

Please, stop disrespecting players because they don’t think like you.

Most F2P players, will unlock stuff they want over time. And usually they will not unlock all but simply once or twice per year.

I understand we are B2P players, fine… but please try to understand the people that do F2P and why they do it.

Why? They are most likely are 100x populous than B2P one.

Compare the little millions box sales of anet to the 80 millions of Lol (only that game), should be enough for you to understand.

I just want to note that even if players could buy HoT specs with gems the game would still be p2w because the HoT specs/etc are more powerful than the core specs. Players would still have to pay money to be on an equal footing.

Not saying its a bad idea though (in fact I think its a great idea).

I think you are going to far with this.

Many champions/hero in LOL/DOTA2 are OP and can be unlock with gems/gold/whatever the in game currency is.

It is pay to win, only if you are stuck to put money to get the OP spec. If you have another way to use that “thing”, it is not P2W.

And in reading this thread post, the game is P2W for F2P players, while B2P players think it’s a B2P game.

Unfortunately, that don’t change the fact that it’s P2W for F2P players and this is a terribad reputation if you want to have more F2P players joining in.

Jourdelune.7456:

Yasha.5963:

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jourdelune.7456:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Jay.3409:

agreed. elite spec should be free in instanced pvp like arenas.. ( not so much with wvw as gear matters there )

i bought gw2 before hot, so spending another $50 just for elite spec dont seem worth it tbh..

Then don’t buy it.

Everyone if failing to note one important thing, ANet needs to keep the lights on.

Giving P4F players the Elite specs takes away a reason to buy the game. You know, the thing that funds ANet, you know money, cold hard cash. Now currently P4F players are leaching(for lack of a better word) of others who have stomped up the money to support the game. So the should have every advantage available to them over a P4F player.

I like many others have paid for the game, and HoT, bought gems, can someone tell me why P4F players should get the same things? And no because they are at a disadvantage is not a good reason, If they enjoy the game that much, that they feel they are missing out, buy the game. It’s not a lot of money. it’s £30 on amazon in the UK. That’s a take away, a trip to the movies or a meal in a restaurant.

People who play the game for free don’t deserve anything. They should be grateful they get to demo the game, then buy it later and not have to start over.

Look at it this way, If you are a 100% PvP player, and when the next Xpac came out if ANet said everyone gets the elite specs for free, then anyone who is a 100% PvP player would not buy the next Xpac, I mean why would you? ANet needs a hook for all game modes to get you to buy the next Xpac. They need the money, with out it the game shuts down.

Look for bold.

There is less than 2000 spvp only players. They still pay for GEM with Money.

The suggestion made, still ask spvp players to pay GEM to unlock specialization.

If that would been the case, the 50 000 new pvp players that left on HoT, would paid GEM / Money to unlock that…

So, spvp players would bring more money than Buy to Play one (90$ to unlock all, versus 50$ to buy to play).

Who in the blue hell would pay $90 to unlock the elite specs when you can buy all the game for $50? I’m sorry but you are talking crazy.

Please, stop disrespecting players because they don’t think like you.

Most F2P players, will unlock stuff they want over time. And usually they will not unlock all but simply once or twice per year.

I understand we are B2P players, fine… but please try to understand the people that do F2P and why they do it.

Why? They are most likely are 100x populous than B2P one.

Compare the little millions box sales of anet to the 80 millions of Lol (only that game), should be enough for you to understand.

I just want to note that even if players could buy HoT specs with gems the game would still be p2w because the HoT specs/etc are more powerful than the core specs. Players would still have to pay money to be on an equal footing.

Not saying its a bad idea though (in fact I think its a great idea).

I think you are going to far with this.

Many champions/hero in LOL/DOTA2 are OP and can be unlock with gems/gold/whatever the in game currency is.

It is pay to win, only if you are stuck to put money to get the OP spec. If you have another way to use that “thing”, it is not P2W.

And in reading this thread post, the game is P2W for F2P players, while B2P players think it’s a B2P game.

Unfortunately, that don’t change the fact that it’s P2W for F2P players and this is a terribad reputation if you want to have more F2P players joining in.

Well I think the major imbalance between core and elite specs are the main problem: the free heroes/rotation heroes are usually just as strong as the locked heroes in moba.

But what you say is true, if the elite specs were unlockable with in game currency (gold to gems) it would go a long way to making spvp more accessible.

This thread is ridiculous. A.net is a business. They need to make money. A.net does not have any obligation — moral, legal, or otherwise — to give free trial players an equal playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you want to classify it as P2W, B2P, or whatever. The fact remains the same: A.net doesn’t owe you, the free trial player, an even playing field.

The expansion is dirt cheap and reasonably priced relative to other MMO expansions. In the time you’ve spent complaining about the free trial, you could have earned enough money to buy the expansion.

If they wanted to make money they would expand pvp game modes, balance the game and give the players what they want so they invite more players to play that can use the cash shop and purchase HoT. They definitely are not in it for the money. Whoever designed this game does not want a democracy.

ResJudicator.7916:

This thread is ridiculous. A.net is a business. They need to make money. A.net does not have any obligation — moral, legal, or otherwise — to give free trial players an equal playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you want to classify it as P2W, B2P, or whatever. The fact remains the same: A.net doesn’t owe you, the free trial player, an even playing field.

The expansion is dirt cheap and reasonably priced relative to other MMO expansions. In the time you’ve spent complaining about the free trial, you could have earned enough money to buy the expansion.

So basically, a business has no obligation to serve the public….got it.

A nightclub is open to the public for free. The club also has VIP membership that you pay for. VIP members get access to an exclusive section and bottle service in addition to what the public gets. VIP is advertised as a bonus so the public can further enjoy the club experience.

However, unbeknownst to the public, VIP members also get “special privileges” (armed bodyguards). Armed bodyguards harass, beat up and intimidate the other club goers who didn’t pay and they don’t like. The club owners, of course, either look the other way or struggle to keep control of the establishment. I say look the other way because this is self-perpetuating since this gets the public to pay to get SOME enjoyment and protection.

According to you, the club has no obligation what-so-ever to the people who are beat up, bloody and bruised.

…uh-huh..

An even playing field is the LEAST they can do. That OR separate f2p players and b2p players.

JTGuevara.9018:

ResJudicator.7916:

This thread is ridiculous. A.net is a business. They need to make money. A.net does not have any obligation — moral, legal, or otherwise — to give free trial players an equal playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you want to classify it as P2W, B2P, or whatever. The fact remains the same: A.net doesn’t owe you, the free trial player, an even playing field.

The expansion is dirt cheap and reasonably priced relative to other MMO expansions. In the time you’ve spent complaining about the free trial, you could have earned enough money to buy the expansion.

So basically, a business has no obligation to serve the public….got it.

A nightclub is open to the public for free. The club also has VIP membership that you pay for. VIP members get access to an exclusive section and bottle service in addition to what the public gets. VIP is advertised as a bonus so the public can further enjoy the club experience.

However, unbeknownst to the public, VIP members also get “special privileges” (armed bodyguards). Armed bodyguards harass, beat up and intimidate the other club goers who didn’t pay and they don’t like. The club owners, of course, either look the other way or struggle to keep control of the establishment. I say look the other way because this is self-perpetuating since this gets the public to pay to get SOME enjoyment and protection.

According to you, the club has no obligation what-so-ever to the people who are beat up, bloody and bruised.

…uh-huh..

An even playing field is the LEAST they can do. That OR separate f2p players and b2p players.

Harrassment, seperation and control isn’t the argument here. The ViP membership is still “buy to own”.

Jourdelune.7456:

Unfortunately, that don’t change the fact that it’s P2W for F2P players and this is a terribad reputation if you want to have more F2P players joining in.

Unfortunately, you have to buy the entire expansion rather than take part in any sort of cash-shop microtransaction(s), so the fact is that it’s buy-to-play and not pay-to-win, and you are blatantly falsifying information.

ResJudicator.7916:

This thread is ridiculous. A.net is a business. They need to make money. A.net does not have any obligation — moral, legal, or otherwise — to give free trial players an equal playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you want to classify it as P2W, B2P, or whatever. The fact remains the same: A.net doesn’t owe you, the free trial player, an even playing field.

The expansion is dirt cheap and reasonably priced relative to other MMO expansions. In the time you’ve spent complaining about the free trial, you could have earned enough money to buy the expansion.

One of the OP’s arguments (I think) is that Anet could well make more money by returning GW2’s spvp game to a level playing field.

Also I don’t think free trial players can post on the forums, so you are talking to people who have bought the game and feel that spvp would be vastly improved if the HoT/core power gap was leveled out, either by actually balancing them, or by allowing everyone some form of access to the HoT specs in spvp.

Jourdelune.7456:

1- first, beta week-end was on week-end. I speak about 3 sec q time for all the first month of F2P.

When a new season starts , the population stacks and start at Tier 1(ruby) …especially when the game launch its x-pack

Jourdelune.7456:

2- you want numbers, there we go:

“After selling 5 million copies worldwide, this August the company made the core online game free to play in an effort to grow its global audience. That strategic decision, which added another 2 million players, was designed to help grow the fan base for the inaugural Guild Wars 2 Pro League Season 1, which launches Dec. 1.”

http://fortune.com/2015/11/24/areanet-investing-in-esports/

Most likely, those F2P players where more interested into PVP than PVE. 2 millions new account in 3 month, while it took 3 years to sell 5 millions.

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2015-09-23/a_look_at_guild_wars_s_move_to_f2p.shtml

“The change to a F2P model has brought Guild Wars 2 a lot of new players. "

It’s hard to find numbers, but many on the internet said that the population from F2P at that time, was something you could FEEL about.

When the F2P where enabled , they where forced to lvl up to 20 PvE lvl (only 1 character) , so the 2-swords-pvp-icon to be unloced to their UI , so they can try the PvP .
When they stealth changed it to 3 lvl …1,5 months later ..it means that majority went to PvE

Jourdelune.7456:

https://girlgamerchronicles.com/2016/02/11/ncsofts-earning-report-q4-2015/

“HoT performance is weaker than expected. The conversion from F2P/core game to HoT is weaker than expected. They look for the reason for this.HoT performance is weaker than expected. The conversion from F2P/core game to HoT is weaker than expected. They look for the reason for this.”

The conversion didn’t work out because HoT felt P2W for them.

PPl dont want to pay 60 dollars …
its the internet .. they want free stuff …
They rather pay LoL and Smite for free , bu they wont buy their physical copies for extra 18-22 RP with each game , or unlock all the Gods

And the core specs are not so behind as you think :
Burn Guardians can stack 10 stacks of burn (3200 dot per sec) or Burst Guardian ….
Theres still the cancerous PU , or spam Knockback+Turrets Enginner or Trap ranger and any class can still crit like a buldoza in 1-1,5 sec
(replace the CnD with Mug and its the same deal)

Its like using Annie (core specs) vs any newly created characters in LoL (HoT spec) …. both have strengh and weaknesses , exept Dragonhunter which is the pre-nerfed Sanjuannie-Sahuany-Saxuannie ??

If we disregard the P2W vs B2W vs B2P tag. From an SPVP perspective, why would it be bad if all free-to-play users could access everything for just SPVP like suggested in this thread?

The hope would be that there would be a lot more people playing PvP with a chance for shorter queue times, bigger tournaments and perhaps a bigger twitch-community and interactions there and things like that?

To you who disapprove. Is that because it seems:
1) technically difficult to separate SPvP and the rest of the content with respect to class access, or
2) because the suggested benefits above are not worth it or improbable, or
3) because you paid money and feel you earn the right to added possibilities in PvP?

There are probably other reasons as well.

I play WvW and PvE as well and gladly paid for the upgrade to get the new stuff but I feel like we would benefit from a larger SPvP community.

Maybe some of the new PvP-ers will enter the WvW or PvE as well and the pay for the full game. Seems like a win-win.

All of you kids who said GW2 is P2W. Duel one of my boys for 500g. They will use vanilla specs and you can use the “OP P2W specs” and they will still farm all of you kids. All you kids whining about GW2 P2W just need to “git gud” 4Head

And I’m serious, I’ll pay 500g if you can beat one of my boys using vanilla specs. Only catch is you better pay me 500g if you got whoop by them. Don’t ditch out like that kid who think he can 1v1 me where I stream myself whooping him 20 times in a row and he didn’t pay.

Exceptions are the people I know that are decent, otherwise if you’re a random kittentter I’m 110% positive my boys can farm your kitten on vanilla specs.

@Mutaatti.2789 and the argument of money.

ResJudicator.7916:

This thread is ridiculous. A.net is a business. They need to make money. A.net does not have any obligation — moral, legal, or otherwise — to give free trial players an equal playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you want to classify it as P2W, B2P, or whatever. The fact remains the same: A.net doesn’t owe you, the free trial player, an even playing field.

The expansion is dirt cheap and reasonably priced relative to other MMO expansions. In the time you’ve spent complaining about the free trial, you could have earned enough money to buy the expansion.

Well, do you know that ANET revenu per month is better for GEMS sold than BOX sold? (you will if you did read post into the thread)

So it means… that more F2P players you have more GEMS you sell.

Please, go read that all numbers are there:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Why-Making-SPVP-P2W/page/5#post6346855

Saiyan.1704:

JTGuevara.9018:

ResJudicator.7916:

This thread is ridiculous. A.net is a business. They need to make money. A.net does not have any obligation — moral, legal, or otherwise — to give free trial players an equal playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you want to classify it as P2W, B2P, or whatever. The fact remains the same: A.net doesn’t owe you, the free trial player, an even playing field.

The expansion is dirt cheap and reasonably priced relative to other MMO expansions. In the time you’ve spent complaining about the free trial, you could have earned enough money to buy the expansion.

So basically, a business has no obligation to serve the public….got it.

A nightclub is open to the public for free. The club also has VIP membership that you pay for. VIP members get access to an exclusive section and bottle service in addition to what the public gets. VIP is advertised as a bonus so the public can further enjoy the club experience.

However, unbeknownst to the public, VIP members also get “special privileges” (armed bodyguards). Armed bodyguards harass, beat up and intimidate the other club goers who didn’t pay and they don’t like. The club owners, of course, either look the other way or struggle to keep control of the establishment. I say look the other way because this is self-perpetuating since this gets the public to pay to get SOME enjoyment and protection.

According to you, the club has no obligation what-so-ever to the people who are beat up, bloody and bruised.

…uh-huh..

An even playing field is the LEAST they can do. That OR separate f2p players and b2p players.

Harrassment, seperation and control isn’t the argument here. The ViP membership is still “buy to own”.

I never said it was.

The argument here was whether Anet as a business should be obligated to serve f2p players.

Wow looking over these threads is crazy is GW2 a pay to win game? No its not. Is it a buy to win game in a way yes, because its a buy to play game.

When you buy an MMO you buy it because you think its cool, and will have a lot of fun with it over time. The first version of this is called the Vanilla version. In a subscription MMO you pay for the game then pay each month for access to it. In that subscription game they come out with an expansion again you have to pay for the expansion and pay each month. Now everything goes up at least five levels, but only for the people that bought the expansion. They get better armor, stats, etc. This includes all areas of the game pvp is no exception. Expecting a player with the original game that did not buy the expansion to be given the five extra levels and the same armor stats as the people that bought the expansion is just crazy. They made the expansion to change the game, not to keep it the same flavor.

Now GW2 compared to other games is actually unique in its structure it is a Buy to Play game. Kind of like a free to play, but all you have to do is buy the game to access all it has to offer. Now like other MMO’s it makes expansions that change the game. All they ask for is if you want to upgrade your game with new options is to buy the expansion then you can still play for free. No sub fees needed.

Now about the people who reject HoT and stick with the vanilla game only, then compare it to the Free to Play people. That is YOUR fault you have not purchased the expansion not the games. The free to play people have restrictions you do not have and will never have. In PVP they are probably equal to your abilities, but are they? You have played more and understand things better.

HoT is not going away it was a base structure for the future of this game. It has nothing to do with how much area on a map we get. What it did was change the game by including things like Mastery’s (ok ok I hate how we have to get some of the mastery points lol) Now those are pve specific of course. Then the Elite Specializations that is only ground floor right now. Eventually all professions will have many choices in them, but that comes at a price.

The ones who get screwed over are the loyal players that when they buy the expansion they had already bought all the other ones. That’s ok though cause we love the game. When a new player or even old player without some of the expansion decides to buy the second or third expansion they get all of them for a lot less. They are combining it all into one price.

Now the Pay to win would mean these people already have any version of the game and they offer a buff in the form of a trinket (for example) that makes your character lets say 10 times stronger than anyone else. This trinket can be used in pve wvw and pvp. This trinket is lets say $50 and you cannot buy it with Gems only cash, but its offered to everyone who wants to buy it. You can buy it even if you do not have HoT. Even free to play people have access to it. When you play against those people they wipe you and everyone else out easily until they come across another that bought that trinket. The stronger ones will have HoT though. That is Pay to Win not what GW2 is.

On the buy to win idea of course if you buy the expansion you will have an advantage that’s what expansions do. Now if you are awesome you can take a vanilla character and make a build that could destroy most players HoT or not.