Why PvP Warrior will never be balanced

Why PvP Warrior will never be balanced

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

Preface: I am by no means claiming this as fact. These are just the opinions of an (almost exclusively) Warrior main who spends most of his time in PvP. I am by no means a top player, but I do have a lot of experience regarding this class.

TL;DR, NOT EVEN THAT ACCURATE OF A REPRESENTATION EDITION:
Unless you've actually played it a LOT, nobody knows what's really wrong with warr; Other classes have amazingly bull mechanics when it comes to risk-reward; developers too timid to make any significant changes to warr, and when they do give small buffs, they feel the need to buff other classes, keeping Warrior at the bottom of the pile.

  • Misinformation

What do you take away from a fight with a Warrior? Most probably something along the lines of: “He did a lot of damage.” “Wow, he died fast.”

This lack of understanding of how Warrior works, from a perspective of other classes, leads to the main topic, misinformation. What makes a warrior tick? Why do they die so easily? You don’t know, because 8 out of 10 times you’re going to easily defeat a warr on any other class. It wasn’t even challenging or engaging! This problem is only made worse by how over time less and less decently skilled players run warr, even in hotjoins, so the ones you DO run across are terrible.

And thus, this leads to the spreading of misinformation. “Warriors are just a step away from becoming an unstoppable beast!” “Warrior’s only problem is condition cleansing.” “Warriors do so much more damage than other classes.” “Warriors are perfectly viable, you just need to babysit them!” “Warrior’s condition removal is fine as it is, you just need to run traited warhorn, 3 shouts, and soldier runes!”

  • Relativity

Some people claim that warr is the “most balanced profession”. This is true! If you were looking at warr in a vacuum. High risk, high reward design? Check. Tells and animations you can react to and skillfully dodge? Check. Substantial loss in damage if you spec for survivability and vice versa? Check.

But what happens when you compare warr to other classes? You realize that the other classes don’t remotely follow this “balance philosophy”. Take Mesmer for example.

A GC warr’s most infamous burst combo would be to:
1) Pressure the opponent and bait out all their dodge rolls
2) Frenzy(Utility) to speed up 100b
3) Bull’s Rush(Utility) to controls the opponent and a gap closer
4) Endure Pain(Utility) if this was a teamfight to prevent melting due to Frenzy’s increased damage side effect
5) 100 blades (weapon skill) for frontal arc cleave burst damage
6)Whirlwind (weapon skill) for AoE medium damage

Now look at a GC mes’s most infamous burst combo:
1) iDuelist for a ranged volley, high damage, bleeds (weapon skill)
2) Dodgeroll for a clone
3) iLeap for another clone (weapon skill)
4) (Optional) Magical Bullet for a daze (weapon skill)
5) Swap for an immob and gap closer(weapon skill)
6) Shatter for AoE burst damage(Class Mechanic)
7) Blurred Frenzy for frontal arc medium damage(weapon skill)

Immediately there’s already something appallingly wrong with this comparison. Almost everything required for the Mesmer burst combo is built into the class on low cooldown weaponskills. Not only does their combo leave them free to choose whatever utilities they wanted, but what should be the most high-risk portion of their combo that roots them on the spot leaves them invulnerable 2 seconds. Both combos take approximate the same amount of time to execute, why is one practically cost and risk free?

(edited by Jzaku.9765)

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

This is just one indepth example. I shouldn’t even have to be so elaborate to point out the comparisons between warr and other classes. An ele’s healing and survivability? A thief’s peeling, gap closing, similar burst damage, and boon hate? A ranger’s dodge rate, regeneration, pet burst? A guardian’s blocking and invulnerability? A mesmer’s 20% minimum invulnerability uptime? And engie’s sustained aoe damage, control and ability to consistantly res himself?
What does warr have to compensate for an utter lack of those things? More healthpool? Slightly higher base defense? Being a meatshield does not make up for the sheer amount of damage, control, and conditions mitigated by simply being able to dodge twice as much. This leads up to my next point…

  • Developer Hesitance

This refers to their “Slow and Steady” philosophy, as well as all the (wrong) feedback they receive making them afraid to do changes. The developers are afraid to overhaul mechanics, they are afraid to shake up the meta. Is a warr’s survivability going to be at a viable level by addding a few condition cleanses? No! Not untill Every class has it’s mechanics brought in-line with warrior’s (invulns, risk-reward ratios, get out of jail free cards) or the warrior’s brought up to theirs, will it be viable. But despite all the evident flaws I can list out when comparing warr mechanics(cough Brawn cough), this isn’t the thread for that.

And that’s why Warriors will never be viable unless Arenanet stops being so timid with their changes.

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Posted by: Demosthene.2195

Demosthene.2195

Been meaning to start a similar thread, but never had the patience, audacity and reputation to follow this through. Thanks for voicing what we already feel and know deep in our Warrior hearts, and signing your name all over it.

I’m not led to believe Warrior will ever be consider equal to the others, not until we get a dedicated blog post to Warrior alone, and acknowledgement of Brawn.

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Posted by: Brigg.6189

Brigg.6189

Yup, I main warrior also and 100% agree. Warrior design is amazing, especially the weapons. It’s really a shame the other classes didn’t follow suit.

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Posted by: Opynn.2936

Opynn.2936

Recently I read that in Wildstar they use mob to balance classes. They created mob called Bob. Average player should be able to kill Bob in 30 sec. If ability is too powerful for Bob it will be too powerful in pvp and pve.
I think Warrior is Guild Wars 2 Bob. They balanced classes aroudn him.
I wonder if they give us more sustain or just nerf damage and send mail “pleas reroll guardian, balance is done, we are going to delate our Bob” :P

Opyrr[GoT] Warrior

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Posted by: Demosthene.2195

Demosthene.2195

Recently I read that in Wildstar they use mob to balance classes. They created mob called Bob. Average player should be able to kill Bob in 30 sec. If ability is too powerful for Bob it will be too powerful in pvp and pve.
I think Warrior is Guild Wars 2 Bob. They balanced classes aroudn him.
I wonder if they give us more sustain or just nerf damage and send mail "pleas reroll guardian, balance is done, we are going to delate our Bob" :P

Warrior used to be their measuring stick, back in the times of closed betas and pre-order beta weekends. Most players were absolutely horrible, and Warrior’s straight-forward nature allowed them to play him relatively well in entry-level skill environment compared to say, Mesmer or Elementalist.

Another matter worth pointing out: Warrior was mostly fleshed out and developed, whereas others lagged behind in the developer’s drawing board, even in their base profession functionality. There was no mature meta to speak of either, Glass Elementalists running all sorts of garbage builds instead of the "invincible" bunker spec were easy pickings for Eviscerates or Frenzy’ed 100Blades.

What they’ve done to alleviate this perceived power disparity between Warriors and non-Warriors? They’ve introduced power creep independent of player skill to professions newer in the development cycle or perceived to be difficult to pick up (most notably: Thief, Mesmer, Elementalist). Chief examples? Invincible boon spammers with AoE damage, early Thief builds, Mesmer profession itself.

Conclusion

They simultaneously nerfed Warrior and buffed/reworked other classes, while giving Warrior little to no attention for a very long period of time after game’s release. They also left Warrior in the gutter of old (and presumably better) balance philosophy: 1) difficult trade-offs between damage, support and control 2) skill-based profession performance. Warrior’s greatest anti-thesis? Mesmer. Close runners-up? Thief and Elementalist with respective meta builds - professions almost play by themselves, even if skill disparity between individual players is still evident.

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Posted by: Harrier.9380

Harrier.9380

Problem with Warrior is the class seems to have completely diffirent balance principles. It seems designed for classic trinity, and it’ld really be ‘unstoppable beast’ with pocket healer. Problem is every other class was designed with FPS ‘every man for himself’ mindset.

“Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit,
because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.”

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Posted by: Ezrael.6859

Ezrael.6859

Blurred Frenzy utterly warps the Mesmer into another realm of Risk vs Reward all by itself.

A 2s melee cleaving attack that does decent damage and includes 2s of Invulnerability on an 8-10s cool down…

Which is why I believe it needs to be changed to 2s of Protection, so that there is some Risk vs Reward built into this awesome damage combo skill, like every other Profession has some Risk vs Reward when trying to burst, especially in melee with all the cleave and general AoE in this game.

The Mesmer currently avoids all of this, Blurred Frenzy for an Invulnerable damage combo. Then use Phase Retreat or Blink to get away straight after…
(The 1 time of 10 that everything isn’t dead afterwards).

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

Problem with Warrior is the class seems to have completely diffirent balance principles. It seems designed for classic trinity, and it’ld really be ‘unstoppable beast’ with pocket healer. Problem is every other class was designed with FPS ‘every man for himself’ mindset.

I agree on the design principle inconsistency. However I feel the need to say that

It’ld really be ‘unstoppable beast’ with pocket healer.

Was under my list of misinformation because with a pocket healer, a warrior will just become a “Functional Class”. Only if it had both a pocket healer and a pocket CC’er will warrior become anything remotely close to an “unstoppable beast”.

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Posted by: Kline.9561

Kline.9561

agreed the devs need to seriously stop being so timid with the warrior changes they need help and they need it now before they become bench-warmers forever

And before says my build doesn’t work, when Ele’s get nerfed it will be -Schwahrheit

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Posted by: Lordrosicky.5813

Lordrosicky.5813

100% agree. And the same applies to the necro.

They need to judge classes all evenly instead of how they currently judge them. It is almost as if the bar for the engis, eles and mesmers is SO high that they are balancing those to a different level. As long as there is the odd necro or warrior that is fine I suspect they feel like.

They refuse to give necro and warrior the power level of stuff which is comparable to things like:
1, Mind wrack
2, Illusionary leap
3, Supply drop
4, Engi burning trait at adept and they give necro same at grandmaster (fail)
5, Having 4 weapon sets and traits which synergise

I mean. There is so much powerful. For warrior and necro to compete they need to push the power curve seriously for those classes. Otherwise they will always be behind. I dont want necro and warrior to be tier 2 classes that see fringe play. They should be as strong and powerful as mesmer and ele and engi. Otherwise it is stupid.

They nerf epidemic, nerf corrupt boon, nerf res sig. Those were the 3 utilities used in the best necro build.

They nerfed quickness which was the core of the best warrior build.

Why do they feel the need to refuse necro and warrior powerful things? Other classes get it. Yet those classes dont and never will. Because they are judged on another (lower) level.

Edit:

Rangers and thieves are like classes which bounce around. They get overbuffed to be op for a bit then overnerfed to be maybe closer to necro and warrior for a bit.

Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.

(edited by Lordrosicky.5813)

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Ok, let’s clear some misconceptions.

Engineers can’t consistantly ress themselves. There is a single toolbelt skill that can do that, with a balanced cooldown and many counters – be it knockbacking the engineer before he gets downed, launching him before or after he gets downed or even using enough dps to make him stay downed. Heh, one could even stop attacking him if you see him tossing that elixir.
Whileas there is a trait that can recharge the toolbelt at 25%, there is also an internal cooldown (should be around 90 seconds, if i remember well).

Supply crate can easily be destroyed with any AoE. Heh, even an hundred blades is enough to destroy all of them, since they’ve got an absurd hitbox. So, what remains? 2s stun and some bandages on a 180s cooldown. Oh, amazing.

Regarding traits – they’re different classes, simply. We have to spend 30 points for the same traits rangers get with 5 points, for example – 50% endurance regeneration. Someone will always have the short end of the stick.

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Posted by: garethh.3518

garethh.3518

agreed the devs need to seriously stop being so timid with the warrior changes they need help and they need it now before they become bench-warmers forever

Thy are timid, at least in my opinion, because they know what they can and can’t do well.
The devs don’t have the foresight to see how certain changes will effect the game, so they do small tweaks and wait to see if its good or bad, then move from there…
It’s cool that the devs seem to know that they have a pretty large flaw are trying to work around it… but by that same reasoning they should have hung up their hats as devs for an MMO ages ago…

The real kicker is that they really don’t know what good combat is.
It makes these slow ‘spastic between bad-good’ changes not even on point, not even addressing the major issues of the game… at least a large majority of the time…

GW2 might end up being decent through some luck and a good deal of time.
But it will never be generally thought of as a good game.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

  • Developer Hesitance

This refers to their “Slow and Steady” philosophy, as well as all the (wrong) feedback they receive making them afraid to do changes. The developers are afraid to overhaul mechanics, they are afraid to shake up the meta. Is a warr’s survivability going to be at a viable level by addding a few condition cleanses? No! Not untill Every class has it’s mechanics brought in-line with warrior’s (invulns, risk-reward ratios, get out of jail free cards) or the warrior’s brought up to theirs, will it be viable. But despite all the evident flaws I can list out when comparing warr mechanics(cough Brawn cough), this isn’t the thread for that.
And that’s why Warriors will never be viable unless Arenanet stops being so timid with their changes.

This is the main reason why they won’t make warriors go further and if warriors an unstoppable beast then it would have more survivability. I will be adding some suggestions to this since warriors are mostly upfront fighters they need utilities to pull their opponents closer to them giving kiters a scare. Rushing at a kiter will only make the player kite more especially if the melee warrior can’t get closer.

For instance:

  • Thieves scorpion wire = pulls the player to the thief,
  • Engineers have an ability like thieves that pulls the player to the engineer
  • Guardians greatsword number 5 attack = does an aoe pull bringing more than one player to the guardian.
  • I remember a champion elite mob in Brisban Wildlands by Triforge waypoint has an ability to pull their enemies closer to them by using a shout.* If I may recall her name was Ebon Knight Carriadar and she posses this ability. I think other champion mobs have something similar to that ability, but greater and that’s what a warrior needs.

As for warriors weapons Hammer weapon combos such as their final attack, number 5 attack and burst attack*earth shaker* needs to have the cripple condition
Why? because players with stability and break stun utilities will be unaffected by hammer CC attacks making the weapon completely useless. Just like in my statement above this one it will put pressure on players unless they want to remove the cripple condition because hammer number 3 attack won’t be enough. I know people will say swap to another weapon, but that would only make the CC warrior more vulnerable to die quicker and judging how the pvp meta is warriors wouldn’t last long.

I know they are working on their condition removal system I hope so they can last longer in a fight dealing with conditions, but what about bunkering especially those who are regen banner builds. If regeneration is what they specialize in then that should be strengthen for bunker warriors that chooses a healing path.

This means Healing Signet and Adrenal Health should scale better with healing power than it does now. Bunkering is suppose to hold more than 2 opponents right? This will branch out the diversity for warriors instead of what we see today.

That’s all I’m going to say for now to help this profession out. I hope it gets through because playing a warrior is frustrating in pvp especially for those other professions that have greater advantages in that field.

I know people say what about the other professions in pvp and their builds. That’s where you step in to support your profession to bring more diversity builds out than the standard viable builds we see today in pvp. However this topic thread is about warriors which why I talked about them.

Pineapples

(edited by Brutalistik.6473)

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

^ No one likes death grips, personally would rather just have more reliable and accessible mobility skills on weapon sets outside of sword and GS.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

^ No one likes death grips, personally would rather just have more reliable and accessible mobility skills on weapon sets outside of sword and GS.

If they gave a trait that made us move faster in combat that would solve the mobility problem. Engineers have that type of trait if they spec into it moving at 25% in combat. Deathgrip which is a warcraft move for death knights is only crowd control which pvp is all about. Since most warriors play closer gaps combat than range. Making a warrior have deathgrip or if we get lucky a move like guardians number 5 GS skill, but as a skill slot will change the tides a bit for warriors in pvp. Players may have to debate about bringing what profession into their Tpvp roster.

If this ability was put in for warriors will this make them annoying?

  • Yes if the player have nothing to counter it

but it wouldn’t be overpowered because with break stun, stability, and teleports in this game. The opponent can get away with no problem and continue to kite or go somewhere else.

Pineapples

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

Among many things, pulls are stupid and they should decrease in quantity if anything, because they can be game breaking. We need to stop the arms race of high reward – low risk gameplay that defines GW2.

If the leaked notes hold true Warrior Sprint (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior%27s_Sprint) will be buffed to 25% movement speed.

Don’t get me wrong, I want warrior buffs, its all I play, but I want the right ones, and not to be turned into a mongo jibbing machine like thieves or mesmers are.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

(edited by Sol Haer.5187)

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Warrior has a higher skill-cap to play then most classes because we can’t screw up…

Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

Among many things, pulls are stupid and they should decrease in quantity if anything, because they can be game breaking. We need to stop the arms race of high reward – low risk gameplay that defines GW2.

If the leaked notes hold true Warrior Sprint (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior%27s_Sprint) will be buffed to 25% movement speed.

Why are pulls are stupid? If the player is a close gap fighter then it makes sense for them to have an ability like that. If this game didn’t provide pulls for close gap fighters then this game should be called Kite Wars 2. We already know which profession would be removed first.

As for warrior sprint that’s out of combat speed, not in combat because when you’re in combat your speed decreases dramatically. Swiftness only helps a little, but not much if the player doesn’t have mobility.

Your solution for warriors is that we should have more mobility on weapons besides GS and sword. How would mobility be able to perform using maces, hammer, rifle. axes, shield and longbow? We going to use the longbow strings and shoot ourselves towards the opponent? If they have a way to give us mobility on warriors weapons then I would like to see how that plays out, but I do not think it would make the profession any different than it is now.

So having increase combat speed as a trait may solve the mobility problem for warriors to get closer to their opponents than being kite 24/7 if don’t have the mobility utilities.

Rampage is also bad because the one boon can be stripped away easily.

Pineapples

(edited by Brutalistik.6473)

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

Since you caught my wow relevance you realized what DG did to melee relevance in terms of RBG composition right (since domination point style pvp is closer to wow battlegrounds than arenas)?

Its always an uphill battle for melee to begin with, for the game to balanced around 1 class being able to pull people to their group – CC lock them – then blow them the kitten up royally locks melee into the spot and they will never get the proper mobility buffs as long as that is their role.

You know why people hate Moa? Because you get blind sided by it and have few options to deal with it, then in a team fight you get hammered instantly and enjoy a nice respawn timer.

This game needs less kitten like Moa, less pulls, etc, its all extremely high reward with low risk.

Edit:
“As for warrior sprint that’s out of combat speed, not in combat because when you’re in combat your speed decreases dramatically. Swiftness only helps a little, but not much if the player doesn’t have mobility.”

Enemy combatants movement speed decreases in combat too, thus its an overall buff to warriors, quit being an idiot. Swiftness overrides passives, and warriors have good access to this boon in particular.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

(edited by Sol Haer.5187)

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Speed caps at 33%… the 33% overrides the 25%.

Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

Is a function everyone has to deal with, I’m not sure what Brutalisk has a problem with.

Edit because there is a lot to address:
“How would mobility be able to perform using maces, hammer, rifle. axes, shield and longbow?”
-Well for rifle in longbow they already have pretty decent sets, more-so than other weapons, but to keep you happy a disengage wouldn’t be bad despite not needing one.
-Mace I’d put a short 300 range or so charge built into the burst skill.
-Shield already has one – possibly bump up the range of shield slam #4.
-Axe I’d put a cripple on auto attack 2 – since the chain is going to require a full completion for decent damage now – put a movement skill in the place of the 3rd skill.
-Hammer, not sure yet.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

(edited by Sol Haer.5187)

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

Since you caught my wow relevance you realized what DG did to melee relevance in terms of RBG composition right (since domination point style pvp is closer to wow battlegrounds than arenas)?

Its always an uphill battle for melee to begin with, for the game to balanced around 1 class being able to pull people to their group – CC lock them – then blow them the kitten up royally locks melee into the spot and they will never get the proper mobility buffs as long as that is their role.

Too bad this game isn’t like warcraft then right? Having stability counters those pull attacks if you are traited for stability boon, block it or have it as a skill slot. Teleports also helps out as well depending on the profession and with support professions on your team pull attacks won’t give you a scare.

First off I am not being an idiot, I’m just giving out suggestions as I usually do and if you don’t like it then just say you don’t like them. It would make you look mature than looking juvenile.

As for speed in combat I don’t think you are aware of what I am referring too.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Shoes

This is what I was suggesting to solve warriors mobility problem especially in closer gap fights that they get a trait similar to engineers.

Pineapples

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

Does the Power Shoes Trait stack with swiftness or passives? Otherwise it seems regressive to what we’re getting.

And you know that an abilities arms race is what WoW became, you should want to prevent that as much as possible.

Either it would suck like spear’s pull or would be too useful to not have – aka whatever weapon gets it (or utility) will become mandatory, I’d much rather bake mobility into our weapon sets, you know like how other classes have it.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

Does the Power Shoes Trait stack with swiftness or passives? Otherwise it seems regressive to what we’re getting..

Yes it will stack with swiftness, that’s what most professions use to escape. However it does not apply to passive speed which is out of combat speed. If you play this game enough you should notice the difference between in combat speed and out of combat speed.

In a fight in combat speed can be countered by impairing conditions which we know as well.

Edit: Please get out of the WoW mindset and focus on GW2 pvp. They are different gameplay style. In GW2 pvp there is no such thing as diminished returns when being CC. WoW has that and if they didn’t the pvp community would be hectic than it is now.

GW2 provides skills to not be CC 24/7 by an opponent instead of waiting on a 2minute insignia that WoW offers.

Pineapples

(edited by Brutalistik.6473)

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

I wasn’t aware they stacked, yes I know the difference between combat and noncombat speeds, the rest of my statements still stands, no to pulls, yes to mobility on weapon sets.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

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Posted by: Brutalistik.6473

Brutalistik.6473

I wasn’t aware they stacked, yes I know the difference between combat and noncombat speeds, the rest of my statements still stands, no to pulls, yes to mobility on weapon sets.

I know that is what you are for but what if it doesn’t change anything? What would you think of next? You’ll probably start thinking of my idea lol. Having the ability to pull opponents similar to what the professions I have mention is a great asset to warriors.

As a melee warrior you want a pull ability especially a AoE pull instead chasing the opponent knowing they can countered the chase by using impairing conditions.

I’m not sure if you are seeing my view on what I am trying to explain, but I hope the devs understands it. This one skill isn’t going to make the profession an unstoppable beast, but it would make be useful on teams and 1 vs 1 situation if the enemy wants to kite or escape.

Pineapples

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

It does change things, having mobility options on weapon sets does work, I see people run main hand sword on hammer builds sometimes for savage leap despite how poorly the two synch up damage wise.

Look at thieves and the mobility options baked into their skills (even stun break and a condition cleanse) yes it does change things as is evident.

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

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Posted by: Sol Haer.5187

Sol Haer.5187

Unless we want to introduce a universal rush using F2 that consumes adrenaline…..

Birch Bruiser, Crystal Desert’s #1 Albino Sylvari Warrior.

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Posted by: Fourth.1567

Fourth.1567

I must say the game is quite far off from what I would consider ideal. It really seems like the Devs don’t have a system in place that really looks at the goal of each class, weapon set or trait line. The ground work, the vision is just missing.

Did the devs always intend bunkers to exist to the degree they do or did they just roll with it when they started showing up?

What do the devs consider a reasonable limit for the amount of invuln time a class can have?

How do the Devs view what warning is appropriate for the level of impact a skill has?

For the warrior sword, what is the playstyle trying to be achieved?

There seems to be so many questions without a tentative answer. More the Devs just throwing up an array of tools that loosely fit from a lore perspective and rolling with what the players make of it.

For example if I was designing the warrior sword this is what I would look at. Of course the weapon is quite plain as it is now so it would need to go beyond what we currently have.

What is the goal with the weapon?
Playstyle – reactionary + conservative, sustained damage, melee
Build path – hybrid pressure focusing on bleed and movement impairment
Ideal role – Frontline dps that is able to put out reliable pressure on a target and disrupt their actions.

How is this achieved?
Flow – react to an opponents movement with skills 2-5. If successful should create opportunities to land a full autoattack chain to output good pressure.
Autoattack causing majority of damage through long duration bleeds and a high impact 3rd hit.
Other skills being dedicated to maintaining contact, disrupting opponent and preventing incoming damage.

How does the weapon currently function compared to these goals?
Survivability is lacking for a sustained damage build – Needs higher base damage, less scaling so stat allocation can be more focused on defense. Skills having a larger defensive role.
The ‘reliable’ damage can be easily prevented through condition removal – Needs a tool to disrupt condition removal attempts.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

I actually agree with the direction that ANet is taking with warriors. However, it will require a second patch a month or two from now to polish things.

The main goal appears to be moving global damage bonuses deeper into trait lines so that every warrior can’t have them all. That move then allows for improvements to situational damage bonuses and improvements to utility, including increasing its availability. So warriors can no longer have a huge global damage boost and lots of utility.

Also, don’t judge it based on the first week. These changes will break most of the popular builds and it will take a few weeks for players to figure out what new builds work. And these changes won’t be perfect either. With changes this substantial, you can only get it in the ballpark with a couple months of internal testing. There will need to be another pass over the changes once players re-adjust.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Bushido.2184

Bushido.2184

Agree with the OP 100%, well said. And their “Slow and Steady” philosophy to prevent the whack-a-mole balance that they fear (which ironically has already happened) cannot possibly work if they continue to release balance patches only every 2-3 months.

Leet Hacker (War) | Linüx (Necro) | Linúx (Ele)
Quit to play my 2 favorite competitive fps and moba games ported to my favorite OS.

(edited by Bushido.2184)

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Posted by: roamzero.9486

roamzero.9486

Continue to release balance patches only every 2-3 months.

Part of the problem I think is less about the philosophy and more about the bottlenecks involved. It takes 4 weeks just to change some text because it needs to be translated in several languages.

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Posted by: Empathetic Fighter.2065

Empathetic Fighter.2065

Well, the warrior is the only 100% melee class in a ranged-dps/AoE-Game. That’s why this class fails to be successfull on its own. His ranged-dmg is crap compared to other classes.
Why ppl think the warrior has not enough survivability? Because a warrior has to walk through the whole kittening area to reach the target. You can compare that to the bunker-guard, but the guard is meant to absorb the dmg. And before the war can even land his dmg, he get chilled/crippled by the cluster of AoE raining on his head.
Gap-closers, which are the wars business are heavily affected by these conditions. The warrior relies also on his gap-closers to kite a teamfight. Other classes as the thief just switch to shortbow or port out with a shadowstep.
So A-Net can either give warriors better ranged options (silly, as warrior is in my opinion a full-melee class), buff their support options (banners, shouts) or make them more resistant to conditions (especially gap-closers).

Read It Backwards [BooN]

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Posted by: samo.1054

samo.1054

Really nice OP, that post was a joy to read. And when you enter a pvp arena with Warrior, it really does often feel like you’re playing some class… that came from a completely different game, with some very much different class design policy.

I just hope that Anet staff reads your post and seriously consider it.

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Posted by: Red Raven.7824

Red Raven.7824

This is pretty much thread of the month. Thanks OP for being the voice of many.

Ashkandhi Champion Legionnaire
Skull n’ Bones sPvP Build
BLACKGATE BEST GATE

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Posted by: DanyK.3842

DanyK.3842

Warriors are amazing but most people tend to play them wrong or misunderstand their purpose. I use my warrior for fast far pressure at the beginning of the game usually killing 1 or 2 people at far with ease then switching to close/mid roamer. I run 0/10/20/20/20 and you must be like whaaaa?! No glass no cannons. But believe me when I say dropping bunker eles in seconds, murdering that mesmer at treb before he could fire his first shot and stomping the enemy roamer thief with 100% health remaining never felt so good. With the new patch my build will be stronger yet again. Only thing warriors lack right now is condition removal which will soon be solved. Don’t listen to me tho I only have ~50 games played on warr but I do enjoy stomping those Champion Illusionists and Paragons in 1v1’s. But wait there’s more! Spiking targets at mid and frenzy stomping people with around 80% stability uptime is also pretty nice not to mention I also have 60% reduction on soft cc and 25% reduction on hard cc and dots.
Warriors are not tanks, they are berserkers. They do what thieves do only warriors do it better, faster and with more team support (stuns, immobilises etc). Play aggressive and you’ll have much more fun!

Sir Dany | Twitch
110k WvW kills | Champion Legionnaire, Paragon |

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

Warriors are amazing but most people tend to play them wrong or misunderstand their purpose. I use my warrior for fast far pressure at the beginning of the game usually killing 1 or 2 people at far with ease then switching to close/mid roamer. I run 0/10/20/20/20 and you must be like whaaaa?! No glass no cannons. But believe me when I say dropping bunker eles in seconds, murdering that mesmer at treb before he could fire his first shot and stomping the enemy roamer thief with 100% health remaining never felt so good. With the new patch my build will be stronger yet again. Only thing warriors lack right now is condition removal which will soon be solved. Don’t listen to me tho I only have ~50 games played on warr but I do enjoy stomping those Champion Illusionists and Paragons in 1v1’s. But wait there’s more! Spiking targets at mid and frenzy stomping people with around 80% stability uptime is also pretty nice not to mention I also have 60% reduction on soft cc and 25% reduction on hard cc and dots.
Warriors are not tanks, they are berserkers. They do what thieves do only warriors do it better, faster and with more team support (stuns, immobilises etc). Play aggressive and you’ll have much more fun!

Sorry, but I am forced to conclude that all you have played against are terrible, terrible players. Or lying/exaggerating. Especially that part about bunker eles, since their standard build has 3 stun breaks so it’s literally impossible to kill them in that manner unless they were absolutely terrible and didn’t react at all to whatever You were doing. See also: sword thief’s infinite get out of jail free stun break+ cleanse and mesmer’s blink/stealth.

Unless you actually post videos of you doing such on that twitch of yours it’s, quite frankly, extremely improbable that what you’re saying is credible.

(edited by Jzaku.9765)

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Posted by: Red Raven.7824

Red Raven.7824

Warriors are amazing but most people tend to play them wrong or misunderstand their purpose. I use my warrior for fast far pressure at the beginning of the game usually killing 1 or 2 people at far with ease then switching to close/mid roamer. I run 0/10/20/20/20 and you must be like whaaaa?! No glass no cannons. But believe me when I say dropping bunker eles in seconds, murdering that mesmer at treb before he could fire his first shot and stomping the enemy roamer thief with 100% health remaining never felt so good. With the new patch my build will be stronger yet again. Only thing warriors lack right now is condition removal which will soon be solved. Don’t listen to me tho I only have ~50 games played on warr but I do enjoy stomping those Champion Illusionists and Paragons in 1v1’s. But wait there’s more! Spiking targets at mid and frenzy stomping people with around 80% stability uptime is also pretty nice not to mention I also have 60% reduction on soft cc and 25% reduction on hard cc and dots.
Warriors are not tanks, they are berserkers. They do what thieves do only warriors do it better, faster and with more team support (stuns, immobilises etc). Play aggressive and you’ll have much more fun!

What you just said is exactly why OP made this thread.

You’re giving the WRONG information. Information that is not accurate, credible, and is without proof.

You did not beat a Bunker Ele. You probably beat an Ele that just happened to be using d/d and didn’t know what to do.

I feel like you didn’t even read OP’s post.

Ashkandhi Champion Legionnaire
Skull n’ Bones sPvP Build
BLACKGATE BEST GATE

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Posted by: Daecollo.9578

Daecollo.9578

Sorry, but with nerf to berserker’s power/heightened focus, and with the damage buffs to guardian. Zerker Warriors recieved almost a 20-25% damage loss. They either will do less damage, be forced to go deeper into something for the same effect or lose critical chance and perma fury (30% critical chance.). (Since Discipline has all of our Critical Damage and Heightened Focus.) We can either go that route or lose Slashing Power/Berserker’s Power (25% Damage.) Or lose Forceful Greatsword.

Hero {} Roleplayer {} Friend {} Professional Princess Saver
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2

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Posted by: zone.1073

zone.1073

Don’t listen to me tho I only have ~50 games played on warr but I do enjoy stomping those Champion Illusionists and Paragons in 1v1’s.

The reason why warriors are receiving balance changes so slowly is because of how good they are at killing morons. People hop into hot join and kill a few idiot players and then think they are gods among babies.

The fact is that a newbie player is not very different from a brainless, PvE NPC. Warriors are great at killing NPCs. So, when players perform equally or even less than an NPC, suddenly Warriors appear extremely powerful. Devs see this and become hesitant to balance warriors out. It is unbelievably sad.

In beta, all players sucked big time. Everyone, everyone was god awful. NPCs were better than players at this time. In beta, everybody was brain dead. Not surprisingly, warriors reigned supreme during beta. Devs’ perspective on warriors was horribly distorted by beta, and now the warrior class suffers from neglect and unwillingness to be balanced. It is depressing.

(edited by zone.1073)

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Posted by: Warlord.9074

Warlord.9074

why becasue they feel the need to buff other professions that don’t need buffed in addition to nerfing warriors and and giving them minor tweaks to warriors that don’t make the class and better. All i see this patch is a nerf to warriors no buff at all too compensate for buffing other professions and nerfing warriors in the process and buff they gave warriors doesn’t compensate becasue they did that.

Then they will say lets sit and wait and see if the changes they made fix it ya right nothing will change becasue u made warriors worst. Then they will decide to make some more changes to warriors and buff the other professions again keeping warriors at the bottom its bull.

Thats what u do anet look anet in the dictionary and thats the description of them.

“Just press 2 to win all the dps was us cuz we’re a
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene

(edited by Warlord.9074)

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Posted by: BlueprintLFE.2358

BlueprintLFE.2358

why becasue they feel the need to buff other professions that don’t need buffed in addition to nerfing warriors and and giving them minor tweaks to warriors that don’t make the class and better. All i see this patch is a nerf to warriors no buff at all too compensate for buffing other professions and nerfing warriors in the process and buff they gave warriors doesn’t compensate becasue they did that.

Then they will say lets sit and wait and see if the changes they made fix it ya right nothing will change becasue u made warriors worst. Then they will decide to make some more changes to warriors and buff the other professions again keeping warriors at the bottom its bull.

Thats what u do anet look anet in the dictionary and thats the description of them.

^^^^^^^^^^ this 10472947294729 Times this.

USMC 1st Battalion 10th Marines
Guardian-Blueprinted, Warrior- Grizzilli
[JCM] Guild: Ehmry Bay WvW

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Posted by: Warlord.9074

Warlord.9074

After I saw that warrior was being nerfed so badly but then looked at the 1st set of leaked patch notes, that had things like 25% run and longbow Cool downs, I thought maybe it wont be so bad, maybe we can play warriors in a differnt way that will make up for the nerf and buff to other classes that didnt need it.

Judging by the way you do things, I can confidently say that becasue the only redeeeming thing you did was buff off hand axe, fix the sword, and tweak the hammer if you guys even did that, That is not going to fix warriors, It beetter be like 1000% time better than what I think it will be to even remotly make up for what u did this time and I know it wont.
Then I saw the new leaked trait changes and half the stuff that could of redeemed the nerfs to warriors and the buffs they gave other professions wasnt even there. Really ANEt I dont’t understand what you think becasue it obviously isnt sound and logical thinking at all. GJ on Failing miserably this time to fix warriors.

you can say wait and try it before you start complaining but that isnt necessary any body with half a brain can see thakittens a failure.

“Just press 2 to win all the dps was us cuz we’re a
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene

(edited by Warlord.9074)

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Posted by: Nukk.3492

Nukk.3492

Because this game has some of the most AoE spam I’ve seen in any competitive PvP title, the AoE damage in this game is over the top and Warriors have to wade through all that crap to do their jobs.

No amount of trait changes, skill tweaking or other such nonsense will change this fundamental problem.

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

Because this game has some of the most AoE spam I’ve seen in any competitive PvP title, the AoE damage in this game is over the top and Warriors have to wade through all that crap to do their jobs.

No amount of trait changes, skill tweaking or other such nonsense will change this fundamental problem.

This is true. Personally I just abandon all hope of doing anything useful in team fight when there’s a grenades engineer spamming the point from some absurdly safe distance away.

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Posted by: Brigg.6189

Brigg.6189

Yeah, aoe is kind of the other half of the problem here. The OP’s class design issues prevent warrior from being a great 1v1 class, but AOE damage trumps warrior’s ability (or really anyone that is non-bunker) to be melee in team fights.

Of course, the last point I’d argue warriors can work around by using LB, but I’d still like to see a pure melee warrior be viable.

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Posted by: Fenrir.5493

Fenrir.5493

Warriors are amazing but most people tend to play them wrong or misunderstand their purpose. I use my warrior for fast far pressure at the beginning of the game usually killing 1 or 2 people at far with ease then switching to close/mid roamer. I run 0/10/20/20/20 and you must be like whaaaa?! No glass no cannons. But believe me when I say dropping bunker eles in seconds, murdering that mesmer at treb before he could fire his first shot and stomping the enemy roamer thief with 100% health remaining never felt so good. With the new patch my build will be stronger yet again. Only thing warriors lack right now is condition removal which will soon be solved. Don’t listen to me tho I only have ~50 games played on warr but I do enjoy stomping those Champion Illusionists and Paragons in 1v1’s. But wait there’s more! Spiking targets at mid and frenzy stomping people with around 80% stability uptime is also pretty nice not to mention I also have 60% reduction on soft cc and 25% reduction on hard cc and dots.
Warriors are not tanks, they are berserkers. They do what thieves do only warriors do it better, faster and with more team support (stuns, immobilises etc). Play aggressive and you’ll have much more fun!

Share with us your amazing build, show us the pandoras box, show us our holy grial, give us our kittenm panacea PLZ!.

“We also realize that we can make mistakes but we dont care because I HAVE THE POWAAA!!”

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Posted by: Wreckdum.8367

Wreckdum.8367

Warrior has a higher skill-cap to play then most classes because we can’t screw up…

^ this

And also… Why is bulls charge still buggy as all hell since launch? I pressed it in a hot join today and it literally took 2 extra seconds to go off. I wasn’t lagging and didn’t have any conditions on me. The game is just inconsistent. The next time I fired it off no problems. Also the pathing is still atrocious.

And rush… Come on… Can we trade that buggy piece of garbage that also has never worked since beta for the guardian greatsword #3 attack? Their leaping greatsword attack is exactly what a warrior needs. Why that even went to the guardian is beyond me.

Rex Smashington – 80 Norn Warrior <Tyrians United Retard Division> Yak’s Bend
“That big kitten Norn with The Juggernaut”

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Posted by: Wreckdum.8367

Wreckdum.8367

Because this game has some of the most AoE spam I’ve seen in any competitive PvP title, the AoE damage in this game is over the top and Warriors have to wade through all that crap to do their jobs.

No amount of trait changes, skill tweaking or other such nonsense will change this fundamental problem.

Someone forward this to the head of the Arenanet balance team. They are completely oblivious to this fact. AOE damage is out of control in this game.

I’ve never played a PvP game where AOE played such a large role and was often the most used attacks by some classes. It should be situational and a small amount of damage to a lot of people. Not your primary attack in a 1v1 fight.

Rex Smashington – 80 Norn Warrior <Tyrians United Retard Division> Yak’s Bend
“That big kitten Norn with The Juggernaut”