Guild Wars 2

Why can warriors use immunity skills like berzerker stance and/or endure pain and still contest a point whereas every other class cannot do this?

Doesn’t make sense, and leads to imbalance.

because, it is balanced, that is why.

berserker stance
- 8 or 10 seconds duration
- 52 or 50 seconds down time
- immune to conditions only
- will die from direct damage
- susceptible to crowd control skills
- take up 1st utility slot

endure pain
- 4 or 5 seconds duration
- 56 or 55 seconds down time
- immune to direct damage only
- crippled, chilled condition effects still affect movement speed
- susceptible to crowd control skills
- take up 2nd utility skill slot

balanced stance
- breaks stun upon activation
- from 8 seconds duration of stability and swiftness
- 40 seconds recharge time, around 30 seconds down time
- stability boon can be very easily removed
- will die from condition damage and direct damage
- take up 3rd utility skill slot

mesmers get it free from f4, no need to use utility skill slot
engineers and elementalist only need to use 1 utility skill slot

warriors need to use all 3 utility skill slots to achieve the same effect, and yet the stability boon can be so easily removed.

it is balanced.

warriors do not have un-removable stability unlike mesmers, engineers and elementalist.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

because, it is balanced, that is why.

berserker stance
- 8 or 10 seconds duration
- 52 or 50 seconds down time
- immune to conditions only
- will die from direct damage
- susceptible to crowd control skills
- take up 1st utility slot

endure pain
- 4 or 5 seconds duration
- 56 or 55 seconds down time
- immune to direct damage only
- crippled, chilled condition effects still affect movement speed
- susceptible to crowd control skills
- take up 2nd utility skill slot

balanced stance
- breaks stun upon activation
- from 8 seconds duration of stability and swiftness
- 40 seconds recharge time, around 30 seconds down time
- stability boon can be very easily removed
- will die from condition damage and direct damage
- take up 3rd utility skill slot

mesmers get it free from f4, no need to use utility skill slot
engineers and elementalist only need to use 1 utility skill slot

warriors need to use all 3 utility skill slots to achieve the same effect, and yet the stability boon can be so easily removed.

it is balanced.

warriors do not have un-removable stability unlike mesmers, engineers and elementalist.

Engineers and elementalists cannot do actions while they are immune.

Warrior can solo 2 people while being immune.

Engineers and eles lose the node while they are immune.

Warrior doesn’t.

Also, the durations

etc
etc
etc
(I’m not talking about mesmer because it’s the weakest class, so nothing to say)

Also, let’s not talk about HP pools & toughness

Except Mesmer’s don’t get F4 for free, even with IP its a MAX of 4 seconds… which prevents Capture Contribution. and even with 30 trait points its recharge is still above 40s nearly 90 if you don’t trait for it at all.

Except Mesmer’s Don’t have stability.. We have one utility skill that provides this boon.. one.. and its duration is about 2 seconds on a 2 1/2 CD and after a second use.. like a 40 second CD..

Except.. Anyone else, while Invulnerable, Cannot capture a point in PvP…

Warriors, just like anyone else, Can ALSO gain some of those utilities you “use up” from traits like they’re candy.

It’s not balanced, its unfair like many things the class gets to have and do vs others. Yes they’re only partial Immunities but no one else gets a free ride here.

Ranger have “Protect me” which is a “semi” immune and that prevents capture point retribution. Protect me lasts around the same time, with the same cooldowns… but it can be “brought down” by spiking the ranger thus killing the pet. Also does not make you immune to CC, conditions, retal or immob….

So, whoever thinks stances is balanced. No, they are not.

Edit; rangers got Signet of Stone and Hide in Plain sight, which allow us to capture point. the trait needs CC to activate, but if you do not move/get knocked around, it allows you to perma stealth (unless fixed). Any action other then doing nothing will break that stealth though….

actually endure pain shouldn’t decap

its debatable. true, as posted above elixir S doesn’t contest point, but it’s much stronger than war stances.

Marcos.3690:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

because, it is balanced, that is why.

berserker stance
- 8 or 10 seconds duration
- 52 or 50 seconds down time
- immune to conditions only
- will die from direct damage
- susceptible to crowd control skills
- take up 1st utility slot

endure pain
- 4 or 5 seconds duration
- 56 or 55 seconds down time
- immune to direct damage only
- crippled, chilled condition effects still affect movement speed
- susceptible to crowd control skills
- take up 2nd utility skill slot

balanced stance
- breaks stun upon activation
- from 8 seconds duration of stability and swiftness
- 40 seconds recharge time, around 30 seconds down time
- stability boon can be very easily removed
- will die from condition damage and direct damage
- take up 3rd utility skill slot

mesmers get it free from f4, no need to use utility skill slot
engineers and elementalist only need to use 1 utility skill slot

warriors need to use all 3 utility skill slots to achieve the same effect, and yet the stability boon can be so easily removed.

it is balanced.

warriors do not have un-removable stability unlike mesmers, engineers and elementalist.

Engineers and elementalists cannot do actions while they are immune.

Warrior can solo 2 people while being immune.

Engineers and eles lose the node while they are immune.

Warrior doesn’t.

Also, the durations

etc
etc
etc
(I’m not talking about mesmer because it’s the weakest class, so nothing to say)

Also, let’s not talk about HP pools & toughness

just something wrong i want to point out there,

ele earth focus 5 obsidian flesh gives complete invulnerability for 4 seconds with 50 seconds cooldown and you CAN cast abilities during it.
that’s one button skill better then endure pain, berserker stance, balanced stance together (hint: stripe the stab and cc to waste their stances)

Actually Wars not being able to contest point while using Berserk stance or Endure pain would be a good change.

This seems like a good change to me. I never understood why warriors could just stand in one place and wait for backup while there was absolutely nothing I could do to stop them.

As a baseline, anything that makes you immune to certain mechanisms without any form of counterplay to it should not count towards capture point contribution. Be it stances, ranger signets (yes i know, we need 6 points in marks to get invuln on 80 sec CD, but my point still stands), engi elixirs, stealth, camouflage (Hide in Plain Sight) or some other ridiculous function.

I’d also argue that a overall PvP “nerf” to the distance knockback, blowout, skills sends you flying is reduced to a maximum of 200 units (3/4th of a capture point diameter) to prevent people from flinging you across maps all the time.

Charak.9761:

actually endure pain shouldn’t decap

Currently you can contest points with Endure Pain up though really you shouldn’t be able to do so considering other forms of invulnerability (Mist form, Renewed Focus, Distortion, Elixer S) and stealth do not allow you to contest points..

Errant Venture.9371:

Charak.9761:

actually endure pain shouldn’t decap

Currently you can contest points with Endure Pain up though really you shouldn’t be able to do so considering other forms of invulnerability (Mist form, Renewed Focus, Distortion, Elixer S) and stealth do not allow you to contest points..

Yeah I was agreeing that it shouldn’t be able to decap when enabled, since it works like guardian renew

Prysin.8542:

As a baseline, anything that makes you immune to certain mechanisms without any form of counterplay to it should not count towards capture point contribution. Be it stances, ranger signets (yes i know, we need 6 points in marks to get invuln on 80 sec CD, but my point still stands), engi elixirs, stealth, camouflage (Hide in Plain Sight) or some other ridiculous function.

What about dodges and evade skills?

Errant Venture.9371:

Currently you can contest points with Endure Pain up though really you shouldn’t be able to do so considering other forms of invulnerability (Mist form, Renewed Focus, Distortion, Elixer S) and stealth do not allow you to contest points..

Unless im mistaken those skills also don’t allow warriors to gain adrenaline or other professions to trigger certain traits by hitting while endure pain even with the other two stances active still only count as 3 different immunities not an invulnerability.

Prysin.8542:

As a baseline, anything that makes you immune to certain mechanisms without any form of counterplay to it should not count towards capture point contribution. Be it stances, ranger signets (yes i know, we need 6 points in marks to get invuln on 80 sec CD, but my point still stands), engi elixirs, stealth, camouflage (Hide in Plain Sight) or some other ridiculous function.

I’d also argue that a overall PvP “nerf” to the distance knockback, blowout, skills sends you flying is reduced to a maximum of 200 units (3/4th of a capture point diameter) to prevent people from flinging you across maps all the time.

Each of the abilities separate do have counterplay. And there is no guarantee a warrior will use all 3 utilities (or even HAVE all 3, which is a requirement)

The fact is, this is not a 1 button invulnerability. It is not equivalent to the other examples you listed. It is 3 separate skill that accumulate to roughly the same effectiveness of an invulnerability. Each with different cooldowns, each with different effects and each with their own counterplay.

@OP:

I’ve posted this same thing before. Warriors should NOT be able to contest or capture points when under the effect of endure pain. It is broken.

Somehow when I hit Warriors that have endure pain on , i cant apply conditions to them …..

But honestly a Hambow (and ive seen even stronger builds, hambow is just the easiest one to play) using endure pain, is really a pain in the…..
He’s capturing the point yet the points are so small that you cant stay on them against a hammer warrior cause even if their skills are “telegraphed” on a small region u cant properly evade them all.
And with 5 sec invulnerability they are god mode there.

I mean even mist form doesnt let you capture points, yet it only lasts 3 seconds, has a higher cooldown(75s), you cant do anything but moving if not rooted(hell why can mist be rooted)

As for focus 4:
Dont know if you can capture points with that, but if you can capture points while using that it should be deactivated as well.
Rarely seeing Elementalists that use focus, mainly because u sacrifize a lot of dmg.

Your Voices Shall Be Heard™. Soon™.

Mesmers can contest points while immune, and their immune is on a 12 second cooldown.

Turin.1024:

Mesmers can contest points while immune, and their immune is on a 12 second cooldown.

I think that counts as an evade, doesn’kitten And you need to have your illusions out.

I would be OK with warriors needing full adrenaline bars for fully effective skills. Then when they USE their adrenaline for burst ( or cleansing ire ) they don’t immediately get the benefit of 6-8 second specialty boons again.

Edit: adrenaline could affect all of their utilities, this would be an interesting change.

How is endure pain not an immunity?

Can’t apply direct damage: Check

Can’t apply condition damage: Check

Can’t fear him out of the point: Check

He is 100% immune to any and all attacks for the duration of the ability with no counter play available.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

How is endure pain not an immunity?

Can’t apply direct damage: Check

Can’t apply condition damage: Check

Can’t fear him out of the point: Check

He is 100% immune to any and all attacks for the duration of the ability with no counter play available.

You CAN apply both Hard CC and conditions (soft CC included), you just can’t do any direct damage, as it’s all reduced to 0. This mechanic allows you to crit and proc crit sigils or traits, and otherwise generate effects like boon removal, or condition removal/transfer with sigils.

Rickster.8752:

-snip-

The correct answer to your question is because the gentleman in the picture below along with other developers mains as a Warrior.

Jasher.6580:

Rickster.8752:

-snip-

The correct answer to your question is because the gentleman in the picture below along with other developers mains as a Warrior.

Oh, that reminds me. A few days before the feature patch I was yoloqueing in Team arena and ran across Hugh “Nightmare” Norfolk. He was a r26 hambow.
Let me say that again: A year and a half since release, the PvP Game designer was (and probably still is) a dolyak.
Is it any wonder that PvP is in this sorry state when the devs only play on the internal servers, or worse, don’t play at all?

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Hugh1893

thieves also can’t contest points while invis… why is invul treated differently

Its simple OP.

Because they are only imune like other professions when they use the three stances together. In that time (5 sec max) Warrior should not contest points to put them equal to other professions.
Other than that there is no reason for a single stance or even two at the same time not alowing warriors to contest points.
People can argue what they want but warriors are only imune like other professions when they use all stances together (and they sacrifice a lot more than other professions to have that imunity).

Its fine as it is with the exception that when the 3 stances are up they should not contest points.

Edit:

Actualy they should only not contest points with the 3 stances up if the Stability could not be removed from Balanced stance, because other classes cannot be controled/damaged while invulnerable.

Darko.5873:

Jasher.6580:

Rickster.8752:

-snip-

The correct answer to your question is because the gentleman in the picture below along with other developers mains as a Warrior.

Oh, that reminds me. A few days before the feature patch I was yoloqueing in Team arena and ran across Hugh “Nightmare” Norfolk. He was a r26 hambow.
Let me say that again: A year and a half since release, the PvP Game designer was (and probably still is) a dolyak.
Is it any wonder that PvP is in this sorry state when the devs only play on the internal servers, or worse, don’t play at all?

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Hugh1893

It’s not surprising that the lead developer is low rank. He doesn’t have a lot of time to just play and get his rank up.

The thing is, you’d have a choice: the lead PvP developer is high rank, or he’s actually doing his job. I’d prefer him doing his job, personally.

Invulnerabilities are the only thing that does and should halt point capture (besides stealth), not immunities. Invuln skills such as elixir S, mist form/obsidian flesh, and distortion prevent all attacks (Cc, conditions, direct). Immunities on the other hand such as endure pain, berserker stance, diamond skin etc. grant partial immunity to a specific damage factor. Berserker Stance only prevents conditions and soft cc (cripple, immobilize, chill) and not direct damage or hard cc (knock backs, etc.). While Endure Pain only prevents direct damage but not conditions and both soft/hard cc. Warriors for one, do not have any complete invulnerabilites unless they waste both utilities which is completely wasteful and still subjective to hard cc unless stability is used(which can be stripped).
Remember shields also allow capture and block any skills unless they are unblockable. Engi’s gearshield (on a fairly low cd) or warrior shield can do this but can be interrupted by unblockable skills such as necro warhorn for example.
TL;DR Immunities are not Invulnerabilities and therefore do not block all incoming damage. Thus immune does not prevent point capture and invulnerable does.

lunyboy.8672:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

How is endure pain not an immunity?

Can’t apply direct damage: Check

Can’t apply condition damage: Check

Can’t fear him out of the point: Check

He is 100% immune to any and all attacks for the duration of the ability with no counter play available.

You CAN apply both Hard CC and conditions (soft CC included), you just can’t do any direct damage, as it’s all reduced to 0. This mechanic allows you to crit and proc crit sigils or traits, and otherwise generate effects like boon removal, or condition removal/transfer with sigils.

Incorrect. I face warriors every day. Condition applications require the direct damage component to “hit” the target to apply the condition. This means warriors will continue to take condition damage they already have, but you can not apply new conditions to them during the effect. Additionally since necros only form of CC is fear and this is a condition you can not CC a warrior as a necro either.

Zietlogik.6208:

Prysin.8542:

As a baseline, anything that makes you immune to certain mechanisms without any form of counterplay to it should not count towards capture point contribution. Be it stances, ranger signets (yes i know, we need 6 points in marks to get invuln on 80 sec CD, but my point still stands), engi elixirs, stealth, camouflage (Hide in Plain Sight) or some other ridiculous function.

I’d also argue that a overall PvP “nerf” to the distance knockback, blowout, skills sends you flying is reduced to a maximum of 200 units (3/4th of a capture point diameter) to prevent people from flinging you across maps all the time.

Each of the abilities separate do have counterplay. And there is no guarantee a warrior will use all 3 utilities (or even HAVE all 3, which is a requirement)

The fact is, this is not a 1 button invulnerability. It is not equivalent to the other examples you listed. It is 3 separate skill that accumulate to roughly the same effectiveness of an invulnerability. Each with different cooldowns, each with different effects and each with their own counterplay.

neither is the ranger skills. Protect me and Signet of Stone is NOT proper invuln. They are suceptible to condition damage and effects just like stances, the difference is that the warrior has NOTHING to loose spending both stances at once if they feel like it, because in those 4-8 seconds, the healing signet in conjunction with Adrenal Health will recover almost 3.5k HP while the warrior itself can hack away at the enemy.

Regarding Dodges and evades, yes i agree that these two should also (if used too much) count towards enemy decapping, but then we must look at a reasonable “timeframe” within which you have to evade for X seconds before decapping initiates.

The downside to this system is that thieves, rangers, distortion mesmers and to a lesser degree engineers, will no longer be viable for any “node control” roles, as their main source of active defenses comes from skills granting evasion, stealth and or damage immunity.
If so, we would have to make evasion skills less widespread, this again means buffing the sustain of classes using evasion as a primary or secondary source of survival beyond the level of sustain they got today. It would simply be a recipe for calamity. Sure it would shake up the meta, big time, but it would most likely sink the ranger, thief and mesmer roles in PvP, as these classes would be “out of tricks” when it came to contesting a node.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

lunyboy.8672:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

How is endure pain not an immunity?

Can’t apply direct damage: Check

Can’t apply condition damage: Check

Can’t fear him out of the point: Check

He is 100% immune to any and all attacks for the duration of the ability with no counter play available.

You CAN apply both Hard CC and conditions (soft CC included), you just can’t do any direct damage, as it’s all reduced to 0. This mechanic allows you to crit and proc crit sigils or traits, and otherwise generate effects like boon removal, or condition removal/transfer with sigils.

Incorrect. I face warriors every day. Condition applications require the direct damage component to “hit” the target to apply the condition. This means warriors will continue to take condition damage they already have, but you can not apply new conditions to them during the effect. Additionally since necros only form of CC is fear and this is a condition you can not CC a warrior as a necro either.

sure u cant fear a war while berserker stance but u can while endure pain
if he uses both…both is on cd in a couple of seconds and you should really waste all your fear into berserker stance
especially for necro it is reallly important to see if your target got stability or in case of the warrior berserker stance as well
and if he does just dont cc…

the only thing i would do is buff rangers invulnerability since it does only make you invulnerable to direct damage without stability or condi reductuon and still does not allow capturing point
i think warriors stances are fairly well balanced
in comparison with other classes invulnerability

the problem lies with rangers invul which is clearly weaker than warriors and all others

Soinetwa.5193:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

lunyboy.8672:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

How is endure pain not an immunity?

Can’t apply direct damage: Check

Can’t apply condition damage: Check

Can’t fear him out of the point: Check

He is 100% immune to any and all attacks for the duration of the ability with no counter play available.

You CAN apply both Hard CC and conditions (soft CC included), you just can’t do any direct damage, as it’s all reduced to 0. This mechanic allows you to crit and proc crit sigils or traits, and otherwise generate effects like boon removal, or condition removal/transfer with sigils.

Incorrect. I face warriors every day. Condition applications require the direct damage component to “hit” the target to apply the condition. This means warriors will continue to take condition damage they already have, but you can not apply new conditions to them during the effect. Additionally since necros only form of CC is fear and this is a condition you can not CC a warrior as a necro either.

sure u cant fear a war while berserker stance but u can while endure pain
if he uses both…both is on cd in a couple of seconds and you should really waste all your fear into berserker stance
especially for necro it is reallly important to see if your target got stability or in case of the warrior berserker stance as well
and if he does just dont cc…

the only thing i would do is buff rangers invulnerability since it does only make you invulnerable to direct damage without stability or condi reductuon and still does not allow capturing point
i think warriors stances are fairly well balanced
in comparison with other classes invulnerability

the problem lies with rangers invul which is clearly weaker than warriors and all others

rangers do however make up for lack of a proper invuln option by having more access to evades then any other profession. Thieves are “second best” at evasion, but thanks to stealth they can be a bit more “selective” in their use of evades as stealth itself does give the user the opportunity to reposition at their own leisure